Wheel of Time Book 12

[Lenardo]

is OUT...

buy it now..

as you know robert jordan died and brian sanderson got chosen- by jordan- to finish the series 784 pages, i am getting it today.


oh ya, he wasn't able to finish in just one book....

[Azith Evertoon]

I just read chapter 1 on my lunch.

Goddamnit.....I have way too much on my plate entertainment wise right now.

WoT
Uncharted 2
Brutal Legend
Demon Souls
Halo:ODST
Borderlands
CoD 4
Ratchet and Clank: A Crack in time.

I'm thinking about dropping sleeping and eating from my schedule over the next week or two.

[Lenardo]

told the wife ~4 days ago i am vanishing for the night when the book comes out.

get out of work in ~30 minutes, get kids from afterschool program. get home get dinner ready, kid baths, kid beds- twins ~8pm dillon ~9pm
in between now and then will read a bit before dinner, and after twins/dillon in bed- might play wow with wife til ~10pm, then it'll be

Late night with Book time. i expect to goto bed ~5am

[Dythan Dabrave]

Got mine from Amazon 2 days ago, but I'm right in the middle of a book. I've went ahead and let my roomate read it first.

He's under strict orders to finish it in a week, and to keep all the goodness to himself.

[saberazz]

Bah, Payday isnt' for another week...need to have this book.

[Lenardo]

started at 10pmish last nite, went to bed at 4:40

~400 pages to go.

book is Damn good.

[Azith Evertoon]

I just finished it.

Not going to talk about spoilers in this thread...but will say...Holy Shit that was good.

[Lenardo]

i'll spoil one thing

Spoiler!

Verin is Black Ajah!!!!

[Azith Evertoon]

Tsk...Len if your going to turn this into a spoiler thread add some spoiler tags to the title so we can chat about it.


Not spoiling anything...but I just started laughing my ass off when the chapters transitioned from Tuon thinking about Mat to his first words in the book "Women are like...Mules. No wait...Goats."

[Twofists Afury]

Just finished this myself last night, and I am happy to say that it was GREAT. Loving the pace of the stories now.

[Beelzaman]

mine is on it's way, been too busy at work, and will be for some time, so it'll be read around christmas. Can't wait for the Towers of Midnight & Tarmon Gaidon to come out, just hope they stay on a yearly schedule.

[Azith Evertoon]

I have alot of faith that Sanderson can do what he claims. Honestly if you look at his books and when they came out, its just staggering...the man is a machine and he really is amazing at how he can give a lot of details without it really feeling compressed. This first one of the WoT shows he can put the pace that the books have been lacking back into the story without sacrificing content.

He was coming out with the Mistborn books one a year and they are really...really...good.

[Twofists Afury]

I am just wondering how he is going to handle critics if they start talking about how he did a better job with the WoT than the original author, cause if he keeps this up, I sincerely feel that the last three books will be the best of the series.

[Azith Evertoon]

While i havent met him, I've read his blog often and I find he seems rather humble about his success. I dont think he knows just how good he is. He still teaches creative writing at a college somewhere...I'm sure he could have retired that by now if he wanted to.

[Myrilith]

I highly doubt they will say that he is better than Jordan. Jordan invented the storyline and an even larger volume of notes than is in print for the entirity of the WoT series- putting 11 of the books on best seller lists (as wall as one of the preeminent favorite fantasy series of all time), in addition to his personal interviews, convention appearances, etc to build up the fanbase.

Just how many fantasy series are compared to WoT now? How many songs, how much artwork, how many computer and card games are based on WoT, how many MUDs and MUSHes have been spawned, how many websites dedicated- and how many references to WoT on countless other websites like an EQ Monk site?

I think Jordan did a fine job with the whole concept and series- though imho it combines huge parts of Dune, Arthurian legends, and Lord of the Rings.

Sanderson is basically just filling in details for the remaining books, as all the characters, plots, and story are already laid out for him. Any number of writers could have stood in to finish up the series. I think that his age and volume of works, as well as his own personal admiration for Jordan and the WoT, will keep him humble at least until the final book is long released and well received. He can still screw this up- I know how disappointed I was with book 8 and 10 by Jordan himself since the books seemed to just drag on and have no real climax to them at all.

[Beelzaman]

Not to mention half of the first book was already written by Jordan himself, whole chapters were already done. Now if you can't tell which chapters were written by Jordan and which by Sanderson, then I'll be the first to say he's doing a hell of a job.

As long as Hariet (RJ's wife) is still editing these books, she will catch many things to make it feel more like an RJ book. Personally I love the series and it will definately make me impartial to anything I write about him. I agree how he combines many books you listed Myr, and he did it his own way... I mean there is only so many different ways you can write a fantasy about one man destined to defeat evil. Personally I love the military aspects he adds in great detail to the series, his personal experiences really drive through when he starts going in depth with the military.

I would love to see a movie on the series, but to be practical, the movie(s) would be so freaking long and it would need a HUGE following to make it through all the books... I would settle for a very good (not-so) mini series on the books someday, as long as they don't screw it up.

[Myrilith]

I almost want to add the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant to that list too. Not sure how many other actual books people would see huge similarities- as so many are based on LotR and D&D and so many actual myths and legends.

Im only about 150 pages into bk12, started reading it this weekend- so far so good...

[Beelzaman]

Got my book last week, and it's a struggle not to pick it up and start reading... what I don't want to do is start reading it them get interrupted with work coming up and have to pick up where I left off.

[Myrilith]

Everyone done with the book and willing to discuss and share questions about the WoT in general?

[Azith Evertoon]

I think we need to give the slow readers more time

I've been itching to discuss it tho, so if Len wants to slap a spoiler tag on the thread topic we can discuss.

[Lenardo]

Forgot to recheck the thread...

been a few week- Spoiler tags go fer it!!!


oh ya, i am currently REREADING the whole series, started about 2 weeks ago, on book 7 now, it is amazing how much i had forgotten...and how much i remembered...

[Azith Evertoon]

I reread the whole series probably at least once every other year. I'm always catching little things i missed. It's the great thing about pre book 9 or so...he had the details needed to make some of the questions you had a murder mystery (like who killed Asmodine). Once the world started getting too big, he mostly lost that, and brandon has mostly been working on solving questions instead of creating a bunch of new ones.

As far as spoiler discussion.
Heres my theory. The bit of prophecy that min and Cadsuane are discussing dealing with the three that are one and Callendor,....I think they are talking about the three powers, the True source, Saidin, and Saidar. I think Callendor is not 'flawed'...i think it was ment to be a sa'angreal for not just male or female but someone channeling all three powers. Rand now has the ability to (with a circle) channel all three of these, probably through Callendor in some final way to kill/seal away the DO.

They think its flawed because Cadsuane does not likely even know about the existance of the 'true power'.

[Myrilith]

3 who are one, probably refers to Rand + Matrim + Perrin, the 3 great ta'averen who are so strongly linked together- or it could refer to the circle of 2 women with the Dragon Reborn using Callandor.

I dont think Rand is going to kill the dark one but redo the seals using both saidin and saidar this time. Rand can channel the True Source OR Saidin- if he were linked with 2 women and channeled either one, then the other would not be available, I think.

The strong former damane that is supposed to help Rand die- I had assumed was going to let the spirit of Lews Therin Telamon be put to rest. Now after GoS, Im not sure.

Where is that one passage? about one of the Forsaken with a gameboard that describes the 'Kingfisher" or something, that was wounded and had an arm in a sling and a blindfold, but was potentially one of the strongest pieces of the board when it was cornered or something along those lines? I always thought that was a foreshadowing about Rand- more so now that Tuon was wondering when he would become blind according to thier prophecies.

Asmodean was killed by Lanfear, as soon as she got away from the Aelfinn/Eelfinn, I think- she did declare that she would kill him. RJ stated long ago that it was supposed to be obvious and not an unanswered.

I have always been let down about Rand and his role of the Coramoor... he should have spent the span of a book among them learning their ways and such, like he did among the Aiel to become the Car'acarn, Ive held.

Black Tower, distinctly missing and even less covered than the Forsaken- I have wondered if Mazrim Taim is one of the Forsaken, or merely a powerful Dreadlord or Darkfriend. I think Logain is destined to overthrow him during or just before the last battle with a faction loyal to Rand- and maybe keep the Ashaman together if/when Rand dies.

Ive also wondered about Slayer, Padan Fain, Gholam, and Shaidar Haran in all this time since they had been introduced as such powerful enemies- but then ignored for so many subsequent books. I still feel that Fain will figure very prominently at the end- and Mat may have to have a deathmatch against Gholam then as well- but I suspect without his wolfhead medallion at that time.

Cadsuane, I was thinking was a Black Ajah, as a big twist and betrayal later on. But since she had access to the powerful key sa'angreal and didnt take them or give them to the FOrsaken, must be inherently good. I just dont quite see her role- I think Rand will link with Nyneave and (what is the name of that powerful damane- starts with an A i think).

[Azith Evertoon]

Originally Posted by Myrilith

3 who are one, probably refers to Rand + Matrim + Perrin, the 3 great ta'averen who are so strongly linked together- or it could refer to the circle of 2 women with the Dragon Reborn using Callandor.

The passage specifically has to do with the three who are one AND Callendor. While yes mat/perrin/rand are obviously tied together, mat and perrin have nothing to do with using an angreal

I dont think Rand is going to kill the dark one but redo the seals using both saidin and saidar this time. Rand can channel the True Source OR Saidin- if he were linked with 2 women and channeled either one, then the other would not be available, I think.

If he just redoes the seals then all hes doing is setting the wheel up to begin the cycle again. Rands purpose here is to stop it from happening all over again. The sealing method is only done on turns of the wheel when the loop is improperly closed, such as only using saidin.

Asmodean was killed by Lanfear, as soon as she got away from the Aelfinn/Eelfinn, I think- she did declare that she would kill him. RJ stated long ago that it was supposed to be obvious and not an unanswered.

Hold on right there. There is alot wrong with this theory. Firstly RJ made that statement before Lanfear 'returned' as Selene a few books later...so linking the two just seems wrong. Next, In one of the bits with Selene she says she would kill Asmodene...which means she thinks hes still alive after the events in the Fires of heaven.

Currently the best theory is that Asmodene was killed by Greandal. Grendal was working with Rhavin, and was very likely in the Camlyn palace helping rhavin during his fight with Rand. (Several things happen while they were fighting in the dream world that did not seem to be coming from rhavin, but another outside source (I think the reference is the shark attack). Grendal saw that rhavin was killed, hid to see what she could learn and had the opportunity to kill Asmodene.

I have always been let down about Rand and his role of the Coramoor... he should have spent the span of a book among them learning their ways and such, like he did among the Aiel to become the Car'acarn, Ive held.

I don't think it was really neccessary for Rand to learn much about them. We learned about the culture from the women's point of view in several ways so the audience knows about them, but Rand sees them mainly as a way to move supplies. He has to deligate his time...its not like the general leading the army needs to know everything about the mules or teamsters.

Black Tower, distinctly missing and even less covered than the Forsaken- I have wondered if Mazrim Taim is one of the Forsaken, or merely a powerful Dreadlord or Darkfriend. I think Logain is destined to overthrow him during or just before the last battle with a faction loyal to Rand- and maybe keep the Ashaman together if/when Rand dies.

I would have liked to see some black tower information but I think they are mostly setting this up for the next book.

Cadsuane, I was thinking was a Black Ajah, as a big twist and betrayal later on. But since she had access to the powerful key sa'angreal and didnt take them or give them to the FOrsaken, must be inherently good. I just dont quite see her role- I think Rand will link with Nyneave and (what is the name of that powerful damane- starts with an A i think).

I think she had ample opportunity before she had the key to do rand harm and pretty much showed she was on the right side. Arrogent sure but even that might be to a degree neccesary to counter Rands own hardening personality. The thing that annoys me most about Cadsuane is she was basically thrown into the series with very little background, which has yet to really be explained and we are basically assuming much of what we know about her. I know she had a very small appearance in the prequel book but it just seems a shitty way to introduce what they are now obviously meaning to be an important character.

[Wilzerd Balefire]

Best book of the 12 so far. I dreaded reading it but I am very glad I did so now. I was SO damn sick of Jordan's over writing every situation ad naseum that I'd pretty much given up on the series.

Rand is going to seal the Bore with the True Source (you heard it here first). The Dark Lord can't use his own power against itself (my assumption). In effect, he will be shut out of this existance; he can play somewhere else, but Rand will have taken his 'toys' (The WoT world) and 'gone home'.

Cadsuane isn't a main character. I'm sure she thinks she is but she isn't. In fact, I think her part of the story is now complete (inadvertantly she completed her task as outlined by Min by providing Tam as the catalyst so Rand could understand the wrongheadedness of his self-imposed harshness). She will stick around just because she's Cadsuane and she doesn't know how not to meddle; but her role is complete, now she's just filler. IMHO.

[Dythan Dabrave]

I think the 3 are 1 comment all refer to the "dragons" Rand in 1 time, Lews Therin in the age past, and ? in the next age.

At the end of bk12, there are a few lines that say all of the thounds of lives are shown to him.

[Lenardo]

spoilers a plenty


perrin is the wolf king
Matt is the Fox-he also blew the horn of valare
Tuan is the Raven

When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known.
when the Fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown.

Rand healing the Taint:

He shall heal the wounds of madness and cutting of hope.


book 12

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow,
for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he is one with the land.
Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield.
He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow.
Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

end of book twelve when Rand is on Dragon Mount is this part:

Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears and the soul of fire, Love.


seanchan raid on Tar Valon:

The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign.

not sure of the bends knee part- that has not come about as of yet.



demodraed - i think is- Taim.

[Azith Evertoon]

The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign.

This could be referring to the group of women that have already sworn fealty, not neccessarily the entire white tower, or egwaine.

Tho honestly I think they are being complete stuck up bitches about this. 'The end of the world is coming, Sure the dragon is reborn...but hes still not our boss'.

[Lenardo]

true the AS that swore to rand = bends to the forgotten sign...

so that one has been fulfulled.

[Myrilith]

Rand is going to have to kneel to the Seanchan to get them to join him.

And he still has to become blinded sometime.


I dont think Taim is a Forsaken- but he is definitely a Darkfriend or directly controlled or manipulated by them. Rand directly recognizes all the Forsaken by sight, after all.

[Azith Evertoon]

No, i think the blindness has already occured. It was a metaphorical blindness to his actions in this last book.

[Myrilith]

All the prophecies are making Rand out as some sacrificial martyr figure.

All the other prophecies about physical marks are literal- the heron marks, the dragons, the wounds in his side, the loss of his hand... as well as the nonphysical effects of torture, betrayal, his madness, in addition to his winters heart / hardness.

Not metaphorical- Id bet $ that blindness is going to be literal.

[Azith Evertoon]

I dont have it in front of me but doesnt the last page of the latest book have the section of the prophecy that basically talks about rand finally seeing after blindness?

[Dythan Dabrave]

His eyes are damaged in the fireball that takes his hand. The only references I remember to him being blind, is when Mordin is playing with the Fisher, a game piece that has a wound in it's side, is blind, and is missing both hands.

[Azith Evertoon]

The last page of Gathering storm:

At the end of time
when the many become one
the last storm shall gather its angry winds
to destroy a land already dying
and at its center,
the blind man shall stand
upon his own grave.
there he shall see again
and weep for what has been wrought.

Rand is standing on dragonmount. Where Lewis Therin died. He is crying and laughing. He is standing on his own 'grave' crying and laughing. This stanza refers to how he has been blind to his actions, and he sees once again that the path he was on was wrong.

I think its pretty clear that the blindness was metaphorical and has been done with.
Also, I believe there was a reference to his damaged eyes in this book as well about how his vision was distored for a time but had returned to normal shortly after.


More evidence:
Last page with rand in that book.

And Rand opened his eyes for the first time in a very long while.

It just seems pretty obvious to me

[Dythan Dabrave]

Ya, that is pretty cut and dry.

[Azith Evertoon]

Something else that occured to me while posting the above that had never occured to me before.

One of the stanzas basically says the dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the dragon.

This latest bit in my last post refers to Rand nearly destroying the world as the last storm.....I'm kind of getting the idea that rands own physical and mental state is somehow causing the bubbles of evil and other various events that are occuring. as he degrades into 'wrongness' the droughts continue, the food goes bad...not only is it his mental health, but he has the two wounds in his side...two distinct types of poison affecting the land.