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Old 09-04-2009, 01:19 PM   #1
Swami
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Default Monk DPS

I wrote this dps guide a while ago but with UF out and some added AAs at the expansion half-way point, a lot has changed. So I completely updated and expanded the guide, which now includes usage on Glyphs and Intensity, as well as taking into consideration all of these new AAs. It's pretty detailed, but I hope not *too* cumbersome. Enjoy!

DPS Tip:

Shaman epic, Shaman epic, Shaman epic!


It is absolutely distressing how many melees have no idea what the shaman epic is. Always wait for your shaman to click their epic before you disc, ESPECIALLY your main burn discs like speedfocus and Crystalpalm. Although the shaman epic itself will only increase your dps by so much, other classes such as zerkers, bards, rogues, etc will also wait to cast their big warcries, group spires, etc for the shaman epic, multiplying the effect. Thus, the multiplicative effect of all these abilities, generally focused around the shaman epic click, will cause very large dps increases. If the fight will last 3 minutes or less, use Crystalpalm/Speed focus on it and the rest of your discs immediately afterwards. If longer than 3 minutes, use speedfocus/Crystal on the first epic click, and then WAIT for the second and subsequent epic clicks to use the rest of your discs. Never disc without a shaman epic if you can avoid it. And to be more advanced, be aware of when other classes are using their other abilities so that you can ensure maximum stacking.

“You are blessed with the gift of the ruchu”

Make this audio trigger. Like yesterday.

Advanced Input: Some classes, like bards, have dps group buffs that are on a 5 minute timer, and so they will only cast these every second shaman epic click, starting with the first click. Thus in these situations every second shaman epic click becomes more potent, meaning these are the clicks you should focus your best discs on, whenever possible.

Spamming Abilities - At any point where I recommend spamming abilities, the ones that I am referring to are: Calanin's Synergy, Stunning Kick, Flying Kick, and Vigorous Shuriken.

Option 1A: Typical Burn (Speedfocus Opening)

----------Burn Order, Encounter lasting 3 minutes or less. ----------

On incoming - Make sure you have a poison active (Suggestion: Spider's Bite XV). Click your epic, Circle of Power, and your Breastplate clickie as the mob is incoming.*

On Engage - As you engage, the shaman should click their epic.** Then, activate Drunken Monkey, Speedfocus, Second Spire, Infusion of Thunder, Zan Fi, and - if you desire - Glyph of Cataclysm. If the event permits it, use Destructive Force as well (use with caution!).

Hit the mob with Five Point Palm***, a Calanin's, and spam Stunning Kick, Flying Kick, Vigorous Shuriken. WAIT to use your second Calanin's.

Double Tap - Activate Drunken Monkey again (if you're fast. If not, don't waste time trying to hit Drunken Monkey, and instead proceed to) Crystalpalm, and immediately use your second Calanin's (it will be modified by the damage of Crystalpalm).

Continue spamming Calanin's, Stunning Kick, Flying Kick, and Vigorous Shuriken throughout.

Click Drunken Monkey, and IMMEDIATELY follow up with Heel of Kanji (Drunken Monkey has mods to Flying Kick, but only for a very short duration, which Heel will benefit from), continuing to spam all of the above.

Wait for Calanin's to repop, then activate Drunken Monkey, Scaledfist, and immediately hit Calanin's Synergy. If you time it well, you can consistently get Three Calanin's Synergy's off during your Scaledfist Discipline, which will be a significant boost. If you wish to, burn 7th Year (Intensity of the Resolute) now.

Keep Drunken Monkey running for the remainder of the fight. If you still have tons of endurance to blow, keep refreshing Drunken Monkey as the FLYING KICK buff wears off, rather than waiting for Drunken Monkey itself to expire, which will refresh your Flying Kick buff each time. This will eradicate your endurance pool, but if the fight is going to end soon and you would otherwise have endurance left over, who cares? Use Fourth Wind if you have to.

----------Burn Order, Encounter lasting between 3 minutes and 10 minutes.----------

Same as the 3 minute burn, but save Heel of Kanji for your second shaman epic. If you will get a third shaman epic, save Scaledfist for this.

You will not have enough endurance to refresh Drunken Monkey as liberally as you could earlier, so use your best judgement. Try to end the fight with as little endurance as possible, without ever getting the unfortunate "you do not have enough endurance" message. Spending more endurance than you have is a big no no. But there's no point in finishing a fight with 40% endurance remaining, either.

If you wish to, burn 7th Year (Intensity of the Resolute) either during Scaledfist or during a non-disc period.

----------Burn Order, Encounter lasting between 11 minutes and 15 minutes.----------

Begin the fight as above.

As soon as Crystalpalm expires, click Drunken Monkey and Thunder Kick (not Scaledfist). This is on a 10 minute reuse, and will refresh before the end of the fight. If you wish to, burn 7th Year (Intensity of the Resolute) either during Thunderkick or during a non-disc period.

Spam everything and, like Scaledfist, strive to get three Calanin's in on a single Thunder Kick disc.

On the next Shaman epic, click Drunken Monkey and Heel of Kanji. Try to get two Calanin's in on a single Heel discipline. Spam everything.

On the next shaman epic after Scaledfist repops (or, if the fight will end sooner than that, then immediately) click Drunken Monkey and Scaledfist. Try to get three Calanin's in. Spam your abilities!

Use Spires, Zan Fi, and Tunic Click as they refresh (don't waste time during a disc to click your tunic, however. Wait till you're no longer discing).

----------Burn Order, Encounter lasting greater than 16 minutes.----------

As above, but substitute your initial Crystalpalm for Innerfire (with your epic 2.0 equipped!!). Bandolier your regular hths back in. Just as Scaledfist repopped later into the fight before, so too will Crystalpalm refresh early. Use it on the first shaman epic click after it repops (or immediately, if the fight will end too soon).

Use Heel of Kanji as soon as it repops, preferably on a shaman epic click.

Refresh abilities as they refresh. Spam!

Quote:
*Note: If you use the SoD BP clickie still (the UF BP click is far superior) IMMEDIATELY upon fading, click Zan Fi. The trigger for the raid tier 4.5 SoD Tunic is

"Your quivering fist fades"

Make an audio trigger for this.

**Note: Hopefully your shaman doesn't suck and you get the epic right away. If you do, or can expect to get it right away, proceed with the burn regardless of the shaman. If, however, it is not immediately forthcoming, it is a toss-up between waiting for the epic before discing, substituting a crappy disc until the shaman epic goes off (like Scaledfist), or proceeding with your burn regardless of the shaman (disc extensions to Crystalpalm and Speedfocus allow a little more leeway, here).

***Note: Five Point Palm can be used at any point during your burn. It will receive its strongest mods during, in order, Scaledfist, Crystalpalm, or Infusion of Thunder (Speedfocus) discs/abilities due to the mods they provide, but your biggest concern is when other monks will be using theirs. It's best to try to avoid using yours at the same time as them. Plan ahead.
Option 1B: Typical Burn (Crystalpalm Opening)

This burn operates very similar to the above Speedfocus burn, but instead of starting off with Speedfocus, you will start out with Crystalpalm. I'll only explain the 3 minute burn in detail, the rest operates exactly the same as above.

There is a very specific reasoning for using Crystalpalm first, as well as a drawback. The first reason to do it this way is a rather simple one, but it's much simpler to use Calanin's at the same time you activate Crystalpalm, making it much simpler to get 3 Calanin's off on Crystalpalm, rather than having to wait to time everything perfectly.

The other reason, however, is that during your Speedfocus burn you will be running Infusion of Thunder at the same time. However, if you follow up Speedfocus with Crystalpalm, the final 20 or so seconds of Infusion will have no effect, as the Damage mod from Crystalpalm is superior. Heel of Kanji, or just your regular autoattack, depending on the duration of the fight, will be able to benefit from the latter 20 seconds of your Infusion of Thunder.

On very short fights, particularly in the 30-60 second range, this doesn't matter; Opening with Speedfocus is much more preferable. However, in longer fights it might be more desirable to open with Crystalpalm in order to milk Infusion of Thunder for as much as you can.

The drawback is that, due to our disc extensions, this can result in Speedfocus losing as much as 6-12 seconds of the shaman epic, which is bad as Speedfocus is by far our strongest disc. One possible way around this on short fights is to click off Crystalpalm early, and turn on Speedfocus so that it gets the full epic, but now we're running into the same problem again. So, basically it's a bit of a tossup which method you use. Personally, I use the Speedfocus start 80% of the time, but I do switch it up.

----------Burn Order, Encounter lasting 3 minutes or less. ----------

On incoming - Make sure you have a poison active (Suggestion: Spider's Bite XV). Click your epic, Circle of Power, and your Breastplate clickie as the mob is incoming.

On Engage - As you engage, the shaman should click their epic. Use Glyph of Cataclysm, Drunken Monkey, Zan Fi, and Second Spire. Turn on Crystalpalm, then immediately hit Calanin's Synergy and Five Point Palm. Spam everything.

Double Tap - As soon as Crystalpalm wears off, activate Drunken Monkey, Speedfocus, and Infusion of Thunder. If the event permits it, use Destructive Force as well (use with caution!). Spam everything.

Click Drunken Monkey, and IMMEDIATELY follow up with Heel of Kanji (Drunken Monkey has mods to Flying Kick, but only for a very short duration, which Heel will benefit from), continuing to spam everything.

Wait for Calanin's to repop, then activate Drunken Monkey, Scaledfist, and immediately hit Calanin's Synergy. If you time it well, you can consistently get Three Calanin's Synergy's off during your Scaledfist Discipline, which will be a significant boost. If you wish to, burn 7th Year (Intensity of the Resolute) now.

Keep Drunken Monkey running for the remainder of the fight. If you still have tons of endurance to blow, keep refreshing Drunken Monkey as the FLYING KICK buff wears off, rather than waiting for Drunken Monkey itself to expire, which will refresh your Flying Kick buff each time. This will eradicate your endurance pool, but if the fight is going to end soon and you would otherwise have endurance left over, who cares? Use Fourth Wind if you have to.

Option 2: Heel of Kanji Burn

This burn is a little better for longer fights, but I'll be following a similar trend here as with explaining the Crystalpalm burn, in that I'll only be doing the three minute burn, as nothing really dramatic changes after that point.

The major reason for this burn, like the Crystalpalm burn, is to maximize your amount of Infusion of thunder time and prevent as many stacking conflicts as you can. The other reason is that Kanji is only a 30 second disc, which means more disc time on the shaman epic. Crystalpalm will be available for the second shaman epic, so that it gets the full duration, as will Speedfocus.

----------Burn Order, Encounter lasting 3 minutes or less. ----------

On incoming - Make sure you have a poison active (Suggestion: Spider's Bite XV). Click your epic, Circle of Power, and your Breastplate clickie as the mob is incoming.*

On Engage - As you engage, the shaman should click their epic.** Then, activate Drunken Monkey, Speedfocus, Second Spire, Infusion of Thunder, Zan Fi, and - if you desire - Glyph of Cataclysm. If the event permits it, use Destructive Force as well (use with caution!). Spam everything but Calanin's.

WAIT to use your second Calanin's.

Double Tap - Click Drunken Monkey, and IMMEDIATELY follow up with Heel of Kanji and Calanin's (in that order!). Spam everything!

Activate Drunken Monkey again, then Crystalpalm followed by Calanin's, and continue spamming. Note: If you will be getting a shaman epic, save Crystalpalm for as soon as Calanin's refreshes while under shaman epic, and then use Crystalpalm + Calanin's at that time.

Wait for Calanin's to repop, then activate Drunken Monkey, Scaledfist, and immediately hit Calanin's Synergy. If you time it well, you can consistently get Three Calanin's Synergy's off during your Scaledfist Discipline, which will be a significant boost. If you wish to, burn 7th Year (Intensity of the Resolute) now.

Keep Drunken Monkey running for the remainder of the fight. If you still have tons of endurance to blow, keep refreshing Drunken Monkey as the FLYING KICK buff wears off, rather than waiting for Drunken Monkey itself to expire, which will refresh your Flying Kick buff each time. This will eradicate your endurance pool, but if the fight is going to end soon and you would otherwise have endurance left over, who cares? Use Fourth Wind if you have to.

Option 3: Scaledfist Burn

This is much simpler. Basically, take any of the three burn strategies I outline above, and start off your burn with Scaledfist running. Hit the mob with Calanin's Synergy ASAP! Then as fast as you can, turn off Scaledfist, and proceed with your burn as normal. This is exclusively for fast burns - not duration burns - and only if you have very fast fingers. The downtime between clicking off Scaled and clicking Speed/Crystalpalm on can actually result in a drop in dps. The primary reasoning for doing it this way is to get off a single, ultra-powerful Calanin's strike in on the very first blow, followed by a normal burn.

I have my own reservations about this particular method, but feel free to experiment with it.

Last edited by Swami; 07-17-2010 at 01:17 PM. Reason: Guide redone
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Old 09-04-2009, 03:19 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swami View Post
DPS Tip:

Shaman epic, Shaman epic, Shaman epic!
While I agree with you that you should burn on shaman epic, the epic alone gives you much less then you might think.

I did some parses and was rather surprised as to how much it contributed. Just reading the description if the epic would cause you to expect FAR more from it then it did.

Buffs were raid buffs (minus champion), which included rank 3 of haste, Strength of tracker, Yowl of Predator, and mammoth strength with 12 percent clicky overhaste. I used Zan Fi (monk AA) and Speed Focus (monk Disc).

/G Test Eighty Five in 17785s, 85267k @4794dps --- Eaglese 85267k @4794dps
18 percent of hits were criticals. (this is simply weapon dps not calanin or kicks).

Same buffs adding Shaman epic.

/G Test Eighty Five in 38008s, 208676k @5490dps --- Eaglese 208676k @5490dps
18.8 percent of crits were criticals.

So a boost of 696 dps under speed focus, nice but not as earth shattering as we would expect.

A couple of things to note, Ruchu is supposed to increase crits by 65% yet the boost was only from 18 to 18.8 percent.

Without epic click max critical was 1780, with epic click max critical was only 2395. From this we can see that the 110 percent mod is based off your base crit without including veterans wrath or other modifiers.

So while it is still nice and benefits us it is an additive part of our DPS not the be all and end all. I suspect that the hundred hands effect we get from a berserker's MGB (especially if we use Crystal Palm then) gives us more benefit.

What gives melee the good dps is not just the shaman click but the multiplicative effects of MANY different buffs.
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Old 09-04-2009, 04:58 PM   #3
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Oh, I agree Ugh. I mostly designed the guide for laymen. Because the shaman epic is often the epic that Zerkers/Bards/etc focus their biggest group multiplicative effects, the shaman epic is the one to watch for. That's also why I mentioned that every 2nd epic is often more potent, on account of certain short-reuse abilities (bard abilities, mostly) refresh around then.

I didnt want to complicate things by going into every possible ability you can possibly look for while on raids. I just wanted to hit the main one.

Thank you for the input btw. I slightly modified my description above. If it's still too exaggerated, I can water it down more

Last edited by Swami; 09-05-2009 at 01:15 AM.
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Old 09-08-2009, 12:24 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swami View Post
...

Shaman epic, Monk epic, Thunder Kick, Calanins x3, Stunning Kick x3.

Shaman epic, Monk epic, Scaledfist, Calanins x3, Stunning Kick x3.

...
I thought Thunderkick and Scaledfist were on the same timer?!?
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Old 09-08-2009, 01:21 PM   #5
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Very cool writeup - thanks!
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Old 09-08-2009, 03:04 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Etrudia View Post
I thought Thunderkick and Scaledfist were on the same timer?!?
They are but Thunderkick has about a 10 min reuse as compared to about 40 with Scaledfist. That means on the 11 and a half minute fights you can open with Thunderkick and then finish with ScaledFist.

If the fight is under 10 min you would skip Thunderkick and just use Scaledfist.
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Old 09-08-2009, 05:58 PM   #7
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never knew that about thunderkick, thanks
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Old 10-09-2009, 01:13 PM   #8
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Can you clariy this burn lineup?

Does this mean do nothing, that is click no other AAs or Discs between what you have in commas?

That is, is this what you mean:

Shaman epic click, then click Monk epic click, then click Crystalpalm, then click Calanin’s once, wait for it to refresh and click it again with nothing else being clicked while waiting for the cala refresh, then click Stunning Kick once, wait for it to refresh then click it again, then click Second Spire.

When Crystalpalm wears off, use Speedfocus and, when possible, Destructive force.

Heel of Kanji.

Scaledfist, Calanins x3, Stunning Kick x3.
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Old 10-09-2009, 03:53 PM   #9
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Good write up, be better if you gave more technical info on the shaman/warcry type effects, for example Increase crits by xx %%.
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Old 10-09-2009, 06:37 PM   #10
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Bege, basically. I mean, continue clicking Calanins and stunning kick as it repops, of course. And Im sure you could find a place to toss in punch through if you really wanted, but I think most of those burns cover every possible ability you could conceivably click in the alloted time spans. Well, aside from maybe a few opportunistic clickies (the old world dragonfang clickie from Vishi, or the new BP nuke clickie from the MM merchants come to mind, although modern dps would probably mean those clickies are actually a net loss in damage, considering casting time). Did I miss anything else that could be clicked? Monks aren't really notorious for having abundant forms of clickie dps, aa or otherwise.

And silent, I do actually have another writeup on exactly what abilities do what, but I'm still working out the parses to determine stackability (since I can't seem to get a straight answer on this). However, as I have stated, this post was meant for laymen.

But, you're right, an advanced explanation would also be useful. I'll post what I have and try to add the parses when I can (some other things in RL have taken precedence and I've temporarily put the project on hold).
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Old 10-10-2009, 05:42 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ughbash View Post
While I agree with you that you should burn on shaman epic, the epic alone gives you much less then you might think.

I did some parses and was rather surprised as to how much it contributed. Just reading the description if the epic would cause you to expect FAR more from it then it did.

Buffs were raid buffs (minus champion), which included rank 3 of haste, Strength of tracker, Yowl of Predator, and mammoth strength with 12 percent clicky overhaste. I used Zan Fi (monk AA) and Speed Focus (monk Disc).

/G Test Eighty Five in 17785s, 85267k @4794dps --- Eaglese 85267k @4794dps
18 percent of hits were criticals. (this is simply weapon dps not calanin or kicks).

Same buffs adding Shaman epic.

/G Test Eighty Five in 38008s, 208676k @5490dps --- Eaglese 208676k @5490dps
18.8 percent of crits were criticals.

So a boost of 696 dps under speed focus, nice but not as earth shattering as we would expect.

A couple of things to note, Ruchu is supposed to increase crits by 65% yet the boost was only from 18 to 18.8 percent.

Without epic click max critical was 1780, with epic click max critical was only 2395. From this we can see that the 110 percent mod is based off your base crit without including veterans wrath or other modifiers.

So while it is still nice and benefits us it is an additive part of our DPS not the be all and end all. I suspect that the hundred hands effect we get from a berserker's MGB (especially if we use Crystal Palm then) gives us more benefit.

What gives melee the good dps is not just the shaman click but the multiplicative effects of MANY different buffs.
Crit rate modifiers aren't multiplicative. They work on a base percentage, which is pretty low... one could find out I suppose, by getting hold of an 85 monk with only the first 3 ranks of crit rate AA spent (I'm guessing that's what our base crit rate is based on) and unequipping any cleave item he might have.

Crit rate modifiers are based on whatever that number is. Rumor on zerker boards used to be that 100% crit rate increase equaled 3% more crits, suggesting that their base crit rate was 3%, but this was a while ago. Crit rate may have gone up since then, as it is supposedly based in part on dexterity.

In any case, the 65% from shaman epic isn't even 65% on top of the base crit rate in this case, since you had rank 3 haste on. Rank 3 haste is 30ish percent on its own, meaning you'd get 35% of the base rate from shm click.

Your crit rate seems a bit high really. You happen to have zerker stuff going on?
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:54 PM   #12
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Sweet, I am always interested in information that allows me to play my character more effectively.

Thank you!
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Old 04-13-2010, 07:05 PM   #13
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Speaking of this old thread... can you macro experts help me with how to create a macro that runs zan fi, 2nd spire, drunken monkey (rk2), then infusion? I generally run all those together.
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Old 04-13-2010, 07:13 PM   #14
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/pause 1, /disc Drunken Monkey Discipline Rk. II
/pause 1, /alt activate 1361
/pause 1, /alt activate 945
/alt activate 7001

Activates Drunken Monkey followed by Second Spire, Infusion of Thunder, and Zan Fi. Can change the order as desired.

I might also recommend adding in speedfocus (/disc Speedfocus), since really infusion and speedfocus should pretty much always be paired together. Adjust pause lengths based on your own computer/etc (greater pauses are required for computers with more lag, and the opposite is true - although a certain amount of server lag will always be unavoidable, especially for discs. AAs tend to be fine without long or sometimes even any pauses).

Check out my Bandolier Recommendations thread.
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Old 04-13-2010, 07:32 PM   #15
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does second spire even do anything with drunken monkey running?
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Old 04-13-2010, 07:33 PM   #16
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Im pretty sure I ran parses in beta that indicated they do stack. I could be mistaken. Confirmation would be nice.
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Old 04-13-2010, 08:22 PM   #17
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All my parses seem to indicate it's all cumulative.
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Old 04-13-2010, 08:44 PM   #18
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wouldn't that mean that zan fi would add too. seeing as how DM rk2 adds 73 or whatever. 2nd adds 37 and zan fi is 40.

I have my doubts
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Old 04-13-2010, 08:56 PM   #19
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Yes, Zan fi adds to it as well.
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Old 04-13-2010, 11:05 PM   #20
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zan gi has a 15% modifier thats probably what you are noticing

if I'm wrong awesome but I still have my doubts
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Old 04-14-2010, 01:50 AM   #21
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well from some short tests looks like zan fi and second spire only zan fi applies and makes 2nd useless but boith stack with DM

min hit 158
min hit with DM 230
min hit with DM and 2nd 267
min hit with DM zan fi 311 (271 * 1.15%)
min hit with everything 311
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Last edited by zzam; 04-14-2010 at 01:51 AM. Reason: wrong number for regular min
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Old 04-14-2010, 09:20 AM   #22
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perhaps i am wrong but with drunken and zan fi can add heel of kanji instead of second spire ;
and on calanin you can 2 stuning kick now )
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Old 04-14-2010, 09:57 AM   #23
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I wonder if there's a skill damage cap, because even based on those numbers zzam they should all stack (Im about 95% positive Ive proven second and Zan Fi stack together), when your final parse demonstrates they dont (when all combined together).

I may just have to run some more parses.

And Jaddes, technically you can add second spire in with heel, zan, and drunken as well, since second is an AA. Though, the question is whether its actually a benefit, which apparently is more uncertain than I thought.
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Old 04-14-2010, 11:08 AM   #24
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My last set of parses in January proved that they all add DPS, at least. I'll see if I can dig them up. I'm planning on running new parses as soon as I can catch a break from work. I'll have to check the minimum hit, as I might have just been seeing the percentage increases adding DPS, and not the damage bonus.

I would still advise running them all together with Speed Focus.

My usual burn is all of those + Speed Focus and Heel on the same shaman epic. Hit a glyph as well. Then Crystal + Drunken Monkey on the second shaman epic. Scaled on the third if I have time for it.
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Old 04-14-2010, 11:48 AM   #25
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I might also recommend adding in speedfocus (/disc Speedfocus), since really infusion and speedfocus should pretty much always be paired together. Adjust pause lengths based on your own computer/etc (greater pauses are required for computers with more lag, and the opposite is true - although a certain amount of server lag will always be unavoidable, especially for discs. AAs tend to be fine without long or sometimes even any pauses).
Thanks for the info... I go back and forth about macros. I like them for saving button mashing, but I also like to control things more than a macro lets me. I'm finding, however, that I almost always run those 4 together so I figured a macro would be good for that.

I know to use speedfocus with infusion, but I don't always. For one thing, the others refresh faster than speedfocus. Also, on a lesson burn I'll use those four, but maybe save the endurance and skip speedfocus, or keep it in reserve for when I really need the boost.
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Old 04-14-2010, 12:04 PM   #26
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I thought we argued about it on the boards months ago and they didn't stack. I was just guessing that DM wouldn't stack with either but never really cared as my dps is usually pretty damn good so I was surprised to see DM get a bonus from one of them. Isuspect because DM goes in the song window and 2nd/ZF go in the buff window maybe thats why the add up.

interestingly enough bard's 3rd spire/UF bp adds to the damage as well.

oh and my last 2 numbers up there should be 270*1.15 not 271. not sure what I Was thinking but it doesn't change anything
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Old 04-14-2010, 12:59 PM   #27
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I remember the debate, but I remember a different winner. (in other words, it seemed they all stacked)
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Old 04-14-2010, 05:41 PM   #28
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I doubt it has anything to do with song window vs buff vs whatever. I more think that skill damage is simply designed to be additive, but perhaps there may be caps on that once you hit a certain value. Id have to run more parses to confirm. But I am very certain that during beta all of the above abilities did provide a dps increase (I used a dps increase to judge, not a min or max value to attack - so that could affect results as well). Personally, I run all of the above simultaneously all the time. On raids, I keep DM active the whole fight, clicking it inbetween discs.

As for macros, I too have had that relationship with them. Lately, Ive just put my disc combos (e.g. speedfocus + zan fi + second spire) all on one macro, but my spam abilities I keep separate. The only reason I did this is because server lag becomes far more apparent on abilities you spam than things you just click once during a fight (although I have had issues where I clicked an ability right as I also got a lag spike, and only half my macro activated, screwing me up. So it's not perfect by any means). On account of having too many bloody things to spam, I ended up simply giving Calanins, Stunning Kick, Flying Kick, and Vigorous Shuriken their own separate spots on my hotbar, but I tied Flying Kick, Stunning Kick, and Calanins to my 4 hotbutton via the key binding tool in game, and all four of those abilities to my 3 key. Thus I only have to ever spam one button, be that 4 or 3 as the situation requires. And I only raid, in which case I basically will always be using all of those abilities, so I dont really worry about situations where I might need to use one but not the others (and if that need arises rarely, I still have a mouse).
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Old 04-14-2010, 05:46 PM   #29
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I, too, remember 2nd and Zan Fi being reported as stacking...

Why the minimum hit as your base, though, instead of maximum? (If it's obvious, just slap me. If not... Well, time to learn something new, then!)
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Old 04-14-2010, 07:23 PM   #30
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As I posted before, in the parses I ran, I definitely saw a DPS increase from adding on each of the abilities. The combinations I ran included base, base + Infusion, base + 2nd, base + Zan Fi, base + Zan Fi + Second + Infusion, and a couple more combinations. Every ability added on increased my DPS. Once I get home from work I'll see if I still have those parses laying around.
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Old 04-15-2010, 09:40 AM   #31
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I, too, remember 2nd and Zan Fi being reported as stacking...

Why the minimum hit as your base, though, instead of maximum? (If it's obvious, just slap me. If not... Well, time to learn something new, then!)
They stack. There's a parse on here somewhere where someone ran multi hour parses with neither. Just 2nd, Just Zan Fi. And then Both. The +damage effects stacked when you looked at max hit and the difference in max hit between the parses was EXACTLY the damage reported from Lucy on the abilities.
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Old 04-15-2010, 09:42 AM   #32
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They stack. There's a parse on here somewhere where someone ran multi hour parses with neither. Just 2nd, Just Zan Fi. And then Both. The +damage effects stacked when you looked at max hit and the difference in max hit between the parses was EXACTLY the damage reported from Lucy on the abilities.
http://www.monkly-business.net/forum...1&postcount=10 - All hail Swami. Look at the MAX NORMAL HIT in those parses.

Qulas did similar parses, independently, showing the same thing.
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Old 04-15-2010, 10:05 AM   #33
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The only problem is my parses were pre-DM. So Im not sure how DM fits into all that (it *should* simply add in without conflict, but then halving the reuse of our Flying Kick *should* also have gone in without conflict. Go figure)
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Old 04-15-2010, 10:47 AM   #34
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/pause 1, /disc Drunken Monkey Discipline Rk. II
/pause 1, /alt activate 1361
/pause 1, /alt activate 945
/alt activate 7001
btw, this worked fine for me, but the drunken monkey isn't discipline. It's style, or something else. That was the only thing I had to fix. Thanks for the help.
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Old 04-15-2010, 12:45 PM   #35
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well I don't know =p thats what I got, blame it on the fact it was 2 or 3 in the morning and I was punching rocks
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Old 04-15-2010, 05:36 PM   #36
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Once I get off my butt and actually get all the new AAs Ill try to motivate myself to run some new parses just to resolve the issue once and for all. No promises though, Ive been slacking on running new parses for the last while. Blame partial burnout.
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Old 04-16-2010, 01:04 AM   #37
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So I pulled up the master parse list from when I did all my parses in January/February, and it looks like everything stacks. I ran parses with no DM before I got upgraded gear, then ran two parses after that (a Zan Fi + Second + Infusion, and the same thing + DM). The numbers I have are -

Every parse was at least 24000 seconds, or 6.5 hours or so. Some were much longer. All parses were on a level 88 from the back. Every parse was also run with self buffs (Ancestral I), Rk. 3 chanter haste, Rk. 2 Gallantry, and Rk. 2 Unity.

Mostly it shows the progression from each disc/AA.

BEFORE UPGRADED GEAR

Base - 1997 DPS

Infusion - 3268 DPS

Zan Fi - 2288 DPS

Zan Fi + Infusion - 3413 DPS

Zan Fi + Infusion + Second - 3564

AFTER UPGRADED GEAR

Zan Fi + Infusion + Second - 3762 DPS

Zan Fi + Infusion + Second + DM - 4037 DPS


The magelo I have now does not reflect the gear I had then, obviously. I'm running more parses as we speak to establish a new base, etc.

Also, as a side note, I ran a FK parse with and without DM.

Results -

Base FK - 206 DPS

DM running (FK buff was perma up) - 310 DPS

DM running (Tiger Claw buff was perma up) - 226 DPS
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Old 04-16-2010, 09:30 AM   #38
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Just out of curiosity, Sun, do you have the minimum, maximum, and average hit data from those parses?
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Old 04-16-2010, 09:32 AM   #39
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Sure do, I was just lax on seperating them out with GamParse, so I have to dig through about 4 log files that are each half a gig. Will take me a bit when I get home, can't do anything from work.
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Old 04-16-2010, 02:26 PM   #40
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Here's a bit of info from Ngreth on EQLive that should help with some of this question.

Quote:
Quote:
Prathun-Dev wrote:



Quote:
Retron wrote:

* How does the Skill Damage Mod SPA stack?

The highest modifier takes precedence, with buffs in several slots coexisting subjuct to the highest mod being the one actually used. If a player has a 5% mod in a buff in slot 2 and a buff with a higher mod in slot 2 is applied then the original buff would be overwritten. The SPA allows values to be specified for which skill is affected but that's not taken into account with stacking - therefore a 5% mod to 1HB would overwrite a 2% mod to all skills.
Yes. The highest effect per AA / spell / worn mod will take effect. Effects in the same slot will block. Effects in different slots will coexist, but the highest effect will take precedence. Bonus points for mentioning that base effect 2 controls which skill (or all skills) is modified.


This has changed since Prathun left us

The text I highlighted in red is no longer true (Edit - I bolded what he was talking about). They will now co-exist, but the remainder of what he said is true. it is *not* additive. It will take the best amongst all of them it finds within the same system. (Spells, passive AA's and items each get their own and add amongst each other. I.E. if you have a passive AA that ads 100 to blunt, a spell buff that ads 20 to blunt, a spell buff that ads 50 to blunt, and an item effect that ads 20 to blunt, your total is 170.)
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