PVP changes coming..

[Lenardo]

yay...

As the PTR approaches we wanted to give everyone a preview of one of the larger changes for PvP that's currently planned for the 2.4 patch.

Currently, diminishing returns are applied to all honorable kills. What diminishing returns mean for honor is that each subsequent kill of the same target will reward you with less and less honor; 10% less per kill to be exact. One of the major downsides to diminishing returns is that the calculations, for potentially hundreds of thousands of players, is too intense to do real time, so they are calculated during off-peak hours. This in turn requires that the honor you gain be temporarily displayed as "estimated" until the calculations are run. It's a system that we've certainly improved (moving the calculation from weekly to daily) but still always disliked. It creates a very uninteresting and sometimes aggravating or confusing detachment from your achievements and the actual reward.

The reason for diminishing returns has always been to avoid the potential exploitation of the honor system. As the game has evolved, especially the honor and battleground systems, exploitation of the honor system now without diminishing returns would no longer be considered a lucrative alternative to simply participating in a battleground normally. We've also greatly improved our ability to monitor and track exploitation of this nature.

We've reached a point where we're now confident that applying diminishing returns to honor is no longer necessary, and we're currently planning to remove it with the 2.4 patch.

With this change we’re including a few restrictions as well though: Players that have the resurrection sickness debuff will not be worth any honor, and if a player dies 50 times or more during a battleground they won’t be worth any honor for the remainder of that battle.

What the removal of diminishing returns means for you is that as soon as you defeat an opponent that rewards you honor, you will receive that honor, and you will be able to spend it right then. There will no longer be an estimate, and you will no longer need to wait until the next day until you can actually spend it. Your achievements through honor-based PvP will be instantaneous.


also they are moving the horde cave a bit in alterac valley to make it take the same amount of time to get to balinda as it does to get to galv...right now the horde can get to balinda ~10-15 seconds faster..she also got her hp's reduced....but has been studying her spellbooks better.

[guice666]

I saw the move of the Horde starting point. I've always wondered why the Horde can always get a tower capped before Alliance even exits their "side" of the map! 0.o

If the horde was organized enough, they would take Galv and that GY right there and hold back the alliance at the pass. It's the only way through there and it's within the Alliance's side. Which means, it's quite possible to stop the alliance from ever reaching the Horde's side of the fence (I know, as I've been stopped there plenty of times).

[ryum]

I have horde and alliance 70s and have been waiting for that fix forever...

it just wasn't fair.
as for the DR... it's bout time. Seriously... So many late night raids have been stopped, or ruined when the honor was starting to be calculated and all sorts of things started to get messed up.

[Braincandy999]

the thing is though, alliance doesn't have nearly the trouble that horde does once they're going into our base for the relief hut.

The severe detours that horde must take to avoid the choke point at SP are bad enough compared to the alliance assaults on FW gy, but the bridge and town defense that Alliance has is a considerable advantage over the horde.

This attrition aberration of AV might be won/lost in the center of the map, but the game is still won when the opposing leader is killed and when the game was a race (which we all complained about due to the lack of PvP) Alliance would win that race just as often as Horde (and more often when they left some to defend).

I've been in games now where hordes offense has successfully destroyed towers and killed Balinda, and Alliance hasn't accomplished either of those objectives and yet Alliance will still win. That might be a 'good' thing in terms of PVP but in terms of objective-based PvP that smacks as bullshit.

[Aamen]

The objective has always been the same. There is one (and only one) win scenario. Everything else is relatively immaterial.

People still persist that farming honor is better than winning. The anti-afk has helped this a bit.

The horde's only real choke point is Iceblood Graveyard, which is why I push for that objective every time as Alliance, and hold it. Chokepoints in relief huts near generals are arguably the same.

[Lenardo]

IMO ICE blood gy is THE key for horde D

horde D KEEPS iceblood tied up = horde win 100% of the time in my experience

[guice666]

The AV's I've been in, it's been Icewing Tower and Stonehearth GY (I had to look up those names ^_^).

If the horde can tie up the Alliance at that point, there's no way for Alliance to pass, period. The Horde have the full advantage at that point: GY right behind them, alliance towers right at them and vantage point.

Thankfully, the AV's I've been in Alliance has taken the new stat by running straight to Relief Hut and capping that immediately. That way, if an Alliance dies, we res down there.

IMO ICE blood gy is THE key for horde D

Nah, I've been in several BGs where we've taken down Drek WHILE Iceblood tower was still up.

[VoldethLJ02]

It seems to me that if Alliance bumrushes the relief hut and sends enough people to hold it, they'll win even without getting iceblood. Why this doesn't happen more often is a mystery to me.

In my battlegroup, they mostly just get killed around iceblood and drek, get pushed back into a 40 minute turtle, get zero honor, and stop queueing. 1-2 hour queue times as Horde is no fun :(

[runnikbloodguard]

Voldeth I must be in your BG! LOL

There's an Alliance "boycott" of AV, because they can't think of a way to win. 1.5 hour queues DO suck.

[Dread]

Originally Posted by VoldethLJ02

It seems to me that if Alliance bumrushes the relief hut and sends enough people to hold it, they'll win even without getting iceblood. Why this doesn't happen more often is a mystery to me.

In my battlegroup, they mostly just get killed around iceblood and drek, get pushed back into a 40 minute turtle, get zero honor, and stop queueing. 1-2 hour queue times as Horde is no fun :(

Same Voldeth from PS on rathe?

[Suzuka Twilight]

8 mins Ques on Ruin for AV. Alliance usually wins.

[Tulgin1]

3 second queue's on my server, and alliance usually win also.

Personally I hate it when either team defends. Sure you might gain some extra honor by defending a couple of towers, but if that means the game lasts 10 mins longer, then it's not worth it.

Luckily, most of the time both teams rush without defending and you get 15 min games with 350-400 honor for both teams.

The only people who go to AV for pvp, is the ones that already have all honor items. Most just go there for fast honor. The amount of honor required to get items encourages people to ignore the pvp side of AV, and just do pve. I maybe pvp for the first 2 AVs. Then I realise I have another 500 AVs to go, and just end up leeching.

Leeching in my book = running straight to the opposing teams base and waiting for the rest of the group to cap towers.

[guice666]

Originally Posted by Tulgin1

Leeching in my book = running straight to the opposing teams base and waiting for the rest of the group to cap towers.

Hardly. If you don't cap the opposing team's graveyard, when somebody dies, they'll be unable to return to assist. Capping the graveyard farthest from your base is up most important. Failure to do so (for Alliance sake) always resulted in a turtle where Alliance is just defending its bunkers. If it's one thing I've seen in AV is Alliance knows how to defend the bunkers (mostly. lol). I've been in many turtles where Alliance did nothing but defend their main base and still won.

[Braincandy999]

2 hour queues on my server.

Alliance never 'win' but they have been able to drop us to zero faster than we could drop them to zero, despite their offense never taking any objectives.

[Lenardo]

~30 second queues on my Battlegroup

alliance here it depends.

idiots bogging down at frostwolf/organized horde iceblood/frostwolf area = horde win

nonidiots actually FOLLOWING DIRECTIONS
and taking relief hut BEFORE frostwolf= alliance win

[Kamikazy01]

Horde seems to lose any bg in our battlegroup. we're almost always up against premade alliance raids, and the horde side almost never has healers.

Last night we had about 8 of our guild gather up and make our own premade and went into Eye. Instead of losing 500 to 2000, we managed to win several times 2000 to 300. We still lost AB, up against a wicked premade from Ghostlands server (they were in full season 3 my hubby said).

I dont think i've been in a bg the past 2 months that wasnt up against a premade alliance raid.

When they changed AV to the reinforcements, Horde actually was winning those, until the Alliance started rushing past and taking out Drek before Horde could take out Vann. Now its just a race to see who gets the end guy dead first, there have been several AVs that the most honorable kills was..... 3.

[ryum]

Its funny how drastically different bgs are for alliance or horde depending on server and battlegroup

Rushing to the end boss on AV is dumb IMO unless you are wanting to farm marks
You get more honor per hour doing 10 to galv 3 to towers skip gy that is beofre the most south gy and then if the other things are going on then as many who are able rush south to drek

[guice666]

Well, the bgs is to win. Alliance is taking the most efficient strat capable. What I don't understand is why isn't the horde racing to Alliance's Stormpike Aid Station?

I mean, seriously. I've been in several AVs and only ONCE did the horde actually take aid station right away. Every single other one, the Horde is constantly "fighting up to" the aid station.

As an Alliance, I know, once we loose aid station, it's a race to kill Drek, period. Alliance will no longer res back there, so now it's an all out "kill Drek first." Up until then, it's all about taking Relief Hut, and then working our way back up (downing towers backwards). Alliance almost always has enough in Stormpike to defense because of two factors 1) All alliance that dies reses back up at Stormpike. And 2) Horde always turtles up to Stormpike actually allowing the time necessary for dead alliance to res back up at Stormpike GY.

Now, couple that with the fact the horde actually has the advantage in AV, still. I don't see why Horde is complaining. *They still have the advantage.* So much so, you're actually getting your starting point moved /back/ in the next patch.

Maybe Horde isn't as smart as Alliance tags them to be? :P


Then again, Alliance does have one advantage in Stormpike due to their res point being right at the bridge, literally a skip to Aid station and the two towers. The horde have a bit more of a run when they res at Frostwolf. Maybe the fix for that should be to also move Stormpike GY out a bit more, move it south just before the initial pass into Stormpike.
Then again, as I just realized, the horde has the advantage on this as they can take out BOTH Stormpike GYs at once, providing enough coordination. Alliance has to choose, Frostwolf or Relief Hut. The two GYs are too far apart to focus on both right away. Which means, horde can res at Frostwolf and cause some grief to the Alliance.

Okay ... see my post? There are obviously things each side can do to benefit themselves: Horde can use Alliance's advantage against them and so forth. This is what battlegrounds are all about!

And guess what, Horde actually hurt themselves by taking out Stoneherth GY if they wish for a quick win. See, if you leave that up, all alliance will res there, and NOT in Stormpike.

okay .. that's it, no more giving Horde strats.

Stop QQ'ing and learn the BGs. :p

For us Alliance, it's always been about getting a GY outside of Stormpike. It didn't matter to us which one, we've tried the next closest but Horde always seems to take that back. So we went for the farthest one, and that's been benefiting us greatly. So much so, that's our new main strat.

I've always told everybody, AV isn't about the damn towers, it's about the graveyards. Control the graveyards and you can control where your people are going to be returning from (and where the other team will be coming from) -- focusing on the towers assumes you'll never die. Focus on the GYs so when you DO die, you, your people and your opponents are where you want them to be.

[Lenardo]

1 group of alliance can Screw horde advance if they are smart and time it right... if the horde are still just prior to bridge

the team heads back and caps all the lost gy's= can delay horde 10 minutes as they ress at their cave start

[ryum]

i really wish they would make AV join as grp... that would rock

[Tulgin1]

i really wish they would make AV join as grp... that would rock

Download a mod, StinkyQueue. Lets you join as a group.

Hardly. If you don't cap the opposing team's graveyard, when somebody dies, they'll be unable to return to assist.

Don't get me wrong, capping the GY is very important early on. But when 30 people run down to cap it, for the purpose of going "afk" infront the boss' room without being reported, it leads to a long game or a loss.

[Aamen]

I have to ammend and correct my previous post as I neglected an important change as of patch 2.3 which pretty much changed the dynamic of Alterac Valley.

The Horde and Alliance now have a limited number of reinforcements available in the battle for Alterac Valley. The number of reinforcements available is reduced upon player death, loss of towers, and death of Captain Galvangar or Balinda Stonehearth. In addition, all available reinforcements are lost upon the death of General Drek'Thar or Vanndar Stormpike. If a team is reduced to zero reinforcements, the opposing team wins the battle.

We've (Alliance) lost more than a few AV's due to loss of reinforcements. I don't play AV a lot anymore...perhaps someone else knows how to keep a tally of your current reinforcement level.

[drizet]

Originally Posted by Aamen

I have to ammend and correct my previous post as I neglected an important change as of patch 2.3 which pretty much changed the dynamic of Alterac Valley.



We've (Alliance) lost more than a few AV's due to loss of reinforcements. I don't play AV a lot anymore...perhaps someone else knows how to keep a tally of your current reinforcement level.

It is displayed in the middle of the top of your screen.

[Aamen]

Thanks...I keep running DBM whose timer bars obscure all that stuff.

[Kamikazy01]

You can move the DBM bars. or turn the DBM battleground mod off if you dont want it running.

[Olarin7th]

In my battlegroup alliance usually win because Belinda/Vandaar have 20% more HP then Galv/Drek

[Kexel EoV]

Alliance wins ~75% of AV on my battle group. If the horde wins it is almost always down to the wire. It is a rare day that Alliance don't have both towers and the relief hut in the process of being captured before the horde have even one of their towers locked down.

But with the 2.3 changes it is much better since the games go for 15-20 mins instead of 30-60mins and turtling although lengthening a game isn't nearly as bad.

[Lenardo]

a turtle makes a game last MAYBE 45-60 minutes tops

my server i think it is about 50/50 and it all depends on the Horde Defense..

15 people on horde D = Turtle= Horde Win in my experience atleast

15 people setup inside by the game to hut, or at the chokepoint at iceblood CAN- if they have good team work- kill any and all alliance offense since they can make it so all alliance appears at dun baldor since no GY will be avail except for there...