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Thread: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

  1. #81
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: Re-post of my SWG giggle, to answer the above question

    Technically it is bait and switch. They promised one service or product then, with no consent from the consumer base, they altered that produce/service at their discretion.



    It would be no different than a car dealer selling you a car, then five months later taking your car back, giving you a different, cheaper car and telling you "we are sorry, we discovered your car was too good. We are giving you this car instead, because it is more in line with our vision of what you should have purchased."



    In any other business, what Verant has done would be blatantly illegal. It has always been stated that you have no rights to your characters, however, so there is probably nothing that can be done.


    </p>

  2. #82
    Guest

    Default Re: Re-post of my SWG giggle, to answer the above question

    Uh.... I choose a paladin because what I read in my original eq manual sounded pretty cool. So cool, that I was willing to pay a penalty.



    Paladins were supposed to be uber tanks with outstanding damage, wearing shiney armor and awesome weapons that made them stand out from the crowd.



    heh, I don't think I need to continue....


    <div style="text-align:center">

    <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=192595">

    </a></div></p>

  3. #83
    Guest

    Default Re: Re-post of my SWG giggle, to answer the above question

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr> It has always been stated that you have no rights to your characters, however, so there is probably nothing that can be done. <hr></blockquote> Few things about that...



    1. Click agreements are not enforceable in court. Neither are shrink-wrap agreements. Period. That's not to say they count for nothing, but they don't carry anywhere near the punch of a real, binding, legal contract with ink on the pages.



    2. There are certain rights that you cannot ever give away, regardless of what contracts you sign, and any court will nullify such a contract if it violates those guidelines. Rights to things you yourself build and pay for is one of them. Seems to me VI provides a service for you to use to "build" yourself a character, so there's an angle for a property rights claim there, especially considering the time and effort involved.



    3. A bait and switch is exactly what SOE did here, there is no doubt about that whatsoever. In the real world, such a thing is indeed actionable in court. The question here is if bait and switch can be applied to virtual property or not, especially when you played under the pretense that the company who used bait and switch on you specifically reserved the right to do so, albeit in a document that less than 1% of the playerbase has read.



    Just saying it's not a black and white scenario just because VI has told you that you have no rights to your characters. Only the court can tell you what rights you do and don't have with regard to your characters. Chances are just about 100% that the court won't see things the way VI does, or the way players do. "Virtual property" is a very new development and courts typically run at least 10 years behind the times in the best of cases. There's not a lot of precedent in this area yet, so nothing is certain at all.


    Raviel Darkfyre

    <table style="filter:glow(color=Red, strength=3)">
    <font color="black" size=2>Insidious Blood</font></table></p>

  4. #84
    Guest

    Default Re: Re-post of my SWG giggle, to answer the above question

    I hear ya, Logancreed.



    However, don't confuse glitzy language in a player manual where every class is talked up quite a bit, with the implicit promise made by actually playing the game day after day, week after week. That's the promise of your own experience and of the experiences of those who write posts in places like monkly-business.



    In other words, it's one thing to be disappointed at level 15 or 20 after a couple of weeks of play, because your character just doesn't seem to live up to the promises in the manual. You maybe can seek out the advice of people on your class board, and they will hopefully let you know where perception and reality might actually meet.



    It's quite another thing to play a character for two years, guiding tender newbies into the pros and cons of your class... only to have the rug pulled out from under you.




    Seske Corpse

    53rd Level Monk

    Luclin Server

    Circle of Radiance Guild

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  5. #85
    Monk Disciple
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    Default Re: attornies amongst us?

    Well..



    I for one would join a class action suit.



    Anyone here got the where-with-all to get one started?


    Brotor Tiller

    61 Monk

    Rathe

    League of Levity</p>
    All general statements are wrong.

  6. #86
    Guest

    Default Why monk



    Actually, had a guild meet recently. And all the 60+ AAXP'd up paladin's seemed very happy with their class. Heals actually worth casting to live up to their clerical nature (outside of the amazaing HWoP), strong ability to solo undead, and with the new attack AAXP skills and big two handers a surprisingly high damage output. And those high level stuns are awesome for taunting and interrupting casters.



    Really, anyone who laughs at the paladin class should take another look.




    </p>

  7. #87
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    Hi and thanks for dropping in Absor <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">



    I have been playing my monk for very long time and I was extremely shocked by the change in monks. I understand that there was a very big and real problem with monks being able to tank too well and that was never intended to be in the game. But I would like a couple of questions answered if possible.



    1) the change was supposed to reflect only the top 5% or so of our class. this by all accounts never was even close. Can you give us some general idea what you wanted to do and roughtly what was changed?



    2) It has been said several times that monk class hi end aromor was not an option but since we have the chance to get all/all why was there any change to being with? all that armor that was all / all should have not included monks if you did not intend for us to wear it. and I think there lies the problem it has been too easy developing all / all armor and saying "we want everyone to have a fair shot at getting good stuff" which all well and good but now you have a class who is "overpowered" by the all/all drops. Maybe rethinking the way our class is is better than attempting to use "math" models to figure out where we are. I know you have a testing enviroment where hi end encounters can be done stricly with text and rolling (all the graphics are are pretty colors heeh) but those numbers did not pan out very well.





    Well sorry this has turned more into a rant than a way to find out more information. Please let us know what you are trying to do for us and let us do the feeback on levels our equipment and playing styles and maybe we can move toward something more resonable for every both players and developers



    /bow


    Hukor Furryfist

    Lvl 52 Monk


    Tag Line If a tree falls on a gnome in the forrest would you hear it squeek?

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  8. #88
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    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT?!



    From the perspective of someone who does have the wherewithall to do something like this (I am an attorney that practices in the area of class action lawsuits), let me suggest:



    Put down the keyboard and back away slowly. Take a look around.. that is the real world out there. Works a lot like eq, you can move through it, eat, pick things up. (Don't kill things, loot isn't as good, and the consequences are higher).



    The sad part is that there might be some attorney out there that is hungry enough to take this case. Someone who would go into court and say that you were wrongfully forced into playing a game developed by a company a different way than you would have played if you knew all the potential outcomes. Gee, if I had known that Cazic Thule would kill me and I'd lose all that XP, I wouldn't have attacked him! I think I'll sue! No one held a gun to your head and made you play the game for those hours and hours and hours. And if the time you have spent wasn't fun, why the F*** did you keep playing?! My god, I hate flames, but wake up people.



    I challenge you to point to one game on your shelf that has given you more enjoyment per $ than this one (some folks have a few other choices, but most of us here would point to eq). You are gonna try to say with a straight face that you wouldn't have played the game, or even bought it, if you had known that Verant could change a small part of the game along the way. (BTW, that EULA that you click on each time, a legally binding agreement, says that they can nerf you if they want to, because it is their game).



    There are real injustices that happen that require things like class action lawsuits. Injustices that break your heart when you hear about them, and injustices that require immediate action. Sorry, this isn't one of them. (Maybe a class action lawyer in the game could bring a case before the Tribunal on behalf of all the monks that were nerfed by the nameless, that would be a riot and fun, and if your post was intended to be a /roleplay thing like this, promptly ignore my response).



    With all that said, I think VI made the wrong decision and should reverse the nerf, it really wasn't well thought out, nor did it achieve the goal they had hoped. However, I have really had fun, and have fun playing the game, and if the next hour spent would be less fun than the cost of playing it, I'd quit. Some people have, and I respect that choice as well. For me, I hope that time is many months away.



    and so on...



    Felthane V'Legum (retired Necro)

    Didact Absaroka, 61 Grandmaster


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fel thane>Felthane</A> at: 11/20/02 4:08:10 pm

  9. #89
    Monk Disciple
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    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    Well



    Yah, class action suit is a bit extreme. Before you spew another sermon..I just gotta say you made a faulty assumption.



    I am not overly upset about the 'nerf' itself all on it's own, but there are other factors that make the situation quite annoying. I am not blaming them for the fact that I play, it's my choice.



    If SoE was here and willing to make an honest attempt at working with the customers they have effected. Instead they show utter contempt and 'unbalanced' treatment. In business practises things must be equally accessible to your customer base(economies of scale aside).



    Every other class has had access and communications with SoE. For them to withhold this from us is biased upon having a monk as main characters.



    Would I sue them because I play EQ? No that I agree is dumb.



    Would I sue them for a business practise that compromises what I get compared to other customers that buy the same service? Maybe since they cannot seem to get what they are doing wrong examplified by the fact they continue to behave this way.



    But I'm no law talkin dood.










    Brotor Tiller

    61 Monk

    Rathe

    League of Levity</p>
    All general statements are wrong.

  10. #90
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    Absor I will say this short and sweet:



    85% of monks AA = Defensive when not a defensive class



    = Bad



    Rogues > Monk in offense

    While

    Rogues > Monk in Defense



    Warriors having 40% more defense output than monks while having dmg output 20% lower than monk using par equipment



    = Bad





    If your intent is to make Monks tank worst than rogues and warriors, then I am sorry, Monks cannot stay at the damage output currently in effect. And please consider rarity of equivalent equipment.



    For example. Monk in full NTOV equipment still has less hp than a full warrior in HOT armor. And yet there are Way way WAY more warriors in HOt equipment than monks in NTOV equipment.



    And when it comes time to weapons... Well... Having 2 monks per server with staves of the water or whatever the hell the name of the new uber 2 hand blunt does NOT = having 100 warriors with windblades.



    See where I am going. Considering EQUAL NOTMAL gearing.



    Good (IF THE ROLE of a Monk is DAMAGE DEALER rogue is backstabbing)=



    Tanking Warrior 100% Monk 70% Rogue 60%

    Damage Warrior 60% Monk 90% Rogue 100%



    Bad (current situation)=



    Tanking Warrior 100% Rogue 80% Monk 60%

    Damage Warrior 70% Monk 80% Rogue 100%



    Rogue = 180%

    Warrior = 170%

    Monk = 140%



    Do the math.



    Teh above is an exemple but does represent the situation.


    </p>

  11. #91
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    Some of you are so optimistic that this is a good thing... all i see happening is our natural AC being lowered by 200 to put all the monks under the soft cap... easy solution for them to do and accomplishes their intent... not that any1 know what that intent is anyways.


    http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=326850</p>

  12. #92
    Guest

    Default Stillness in the night (in character post, long)

    Can you hear that sound? Absor, can you hear the sound that surrounds you, deafen's your hearing? Dull's the senses? Chills you to the bone?



    That's the sound of nearly 10,000 voices in unison. Voices that have been around since the dawn of creation, and some recently joining in.



    Those are the voices of those that feel to be a victim. Victim to the ideals that, despite we are the customer and we pay for 'services', we get trashed and disregarded.



    We tire of being alone in the darkness. We tire of being cold and lonely, with the mental consideration that we pay for this treatment.



    It's Ludicrous!



    On one hand, we're happy that you stepped into our own little part of hell, but on the other we demand answers and retribution.



    Answers to all the questions being asked here, all quite legitimate in their own rights. Retribution to the class that is so dearly loved enough to raise 10,000 voices in protest, and to remember that we pay for this.



    There you are, our beacon of the night. Our small bit of hope that we aren't being shunned or ignored. To hear our stories and our plea's and not delve into idiocities that we were ever "the uber-tanks they were."



    You walk into our darkness, utter words of insanity, "There's not much more I can add on this until we get a chance to look into this thing further. But we are going to look into it, and we have been reading your comments", and leave us once again in the cold.



    Allow me to introduce myself to you, Absor. I am not a person that you should know on a personal level. You need not know that I am 34 years old, married with 2 children, a professional with a marketing/design career. These things should mean absolutely nothing to you.



    What should matter, is that I am one of those stuck in this cold, dark place we call hell. And I pay to be here.



    All we ask is that you join us in our search to seek enlightenment and take nearly 10,000 voices of discouragment and try to turn them towards joyous union of praise.



    Praise of the equality of treatment that many other people have experienced before us. To be treated fairly, and with some quickness that we don't feel that we shall perish in darkness, on a cold damp floor where no one will see us, and no one will care.



    Our voices cry out for justice. For equality for those that cannot be, as much as others. In other words, those of us that dedicate ourselves to our family first, and EverQuest second.



    You, your company and your ideals took away the enjoyment that I had playing me level 44 human (yes that's right. HUMAN!) monk. When the children have settled down, I enjoyed gaming online with my life-mate who had an equally leveled Ranger. It was our relax time, our fun time. Time to be with our friends in our guild, and to accomplish a task before succumbing to slumber.



    Listen, Absor. Listen to the voices and give us the same respective treatment that others have received, that we all pay and expect to receive.



    Give us the ability to enjoy things again. Help me off this dark, damp floor and show me the light once again.





    -Khonshu Faris'Alqamr

    Guild Leader, The Avatars

    The Tribunal



    www.magelo.com/eq_view_pr...?num=56709


    </p>

  13. #93
    Guest

    Default Re: Stillness in the night (in character post, long)

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I challenge you to point to one game on your shelf that has given you more enjoyment per $ than this one (some folks have a few other choices, but most of us here would point to eq). <hr></blockquote> Not that I'm advocating suing SOE, but think of it this way.



    I challenge you to point out one game you have ever played that has given you more grief, more aggravation, more disappointments, and more exasperation than EQ. Most people will not be able to do it.



    I challenge you to point out any one game that ever cost you more, in time invested and in money invested, than EQ. Again, I'd bet that almost nobody is able to name one.



    Now, WHY do people continue to play a game that costs so much in time, money, and frustration?



    The people, of course.



    This game is fun IN SPITE of SOE, not BECAUSE of SOE. Big difference. More often than not, SOE is the cause of the majority of the problems and aggravations in EQ, not the cause of enjoyment. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> The sad part is that there might be some attorney out there that is hungry enough to take this case. Someone who would go into court and say that you were wrongfully forced into playing a game developed by a company a different way than you would have played if you knew all the potential outcomes. Gee, if I had known that Cazic Thule would kill me and I'd lose all that XP, I wouldn't have attacked him! I think I'll sue! No one held a gun to your head and made you play the game for those hours and hours and hours. And if the time you have spent wasn't fun, why the F*** did you keep playing?! <hr></blockquote> Well, that's not really what happened here. We chose to play the game based on things running a certain way. This persisted for years. Suddenly the company changes all the rules, and literally makes your class useless compared to several others. What's worse, they totally and completely ignore all attempts to resolve the issue and refuse to talk about it, yet they DO talk to several other classes about similar issues on a regular basis. That's not the same at all as losing XP on death. Losing XP on death is part of the rules. Losing your class due to developer ignorance and then being treated with an astonishing lack of respect as a consumer is not mentioned anywhere, in any rules. The possibility of it happening is never mentioned or spelled out, or even hinted at in any SOE documents including the EULA. It isn't spelled out because if it were, nobody would play the damn game.



    If you knew, 2 years ago, that SOE would change the rules in this way, would you still have invested $600 and 150days of time (or whatever it cost) building up a character only to quit the game in disgust? Most wouldn't. I can honestly say I wish I had never played this game. If I had it to do over, knowing what I now know, I would never have played Everquest.


    Raviel Darkfyre

    <table style="filter:glow(color=Red, strength=3)">
    <font color="black" size=2>Insidious Blood</font></table></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=evi lnight>EvilNight</A> at: 11/21/02 8:26:46 am

  14. #94
    Guest

    Default Re: Stillness in the night (in character post, long)

    Guys, something to consider is that if you seriously start talking lawsuit here, you're going to shut down any chance we have of working with the SOE dev team on a solution to this problem.



    Keep up the lawsuit talk, and the few Absor posts you do see will disappear.



    The only way that Absor will then be able to communicate with us will be through Sony's lawyers.



    In my experience, whenever you get lawyers involved with any disagreement, the only winners when the dust settles are the lawyers themselves.




    Seske Corpse

    53rd Level Monk

    Luclin Server

    Circle of Radiance Guild

    My Magelo Profile</p>

  15. #95
    Guest

    Default Re: Stillness in the night (in character post, long)

    ^^^^^^^^



    Please, don't get so overly dramatic. If the mere 'fear' of a lawsuit discussion likes this drives the devs from here, then SoE is full of bigger idiots than I already imagine.



    1) A lawsuit would go nowhere; and I seriously doubt you'd find a laywer stupid enough to try it (unless some EQ player is willing to finance it, and that would take A LOT of cash even to start).



    2) IF such a class action lawsuit went forward and was successful, you'd probably see ALL on-line MMORPG games shut down as a result.



    But relax, it's not going to happen.


    <div style="text-align:center">
    GrandMaster Monk of the 60th Order - The Nameless Server

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  16. #96
    Guest

    Default Re: Stillness in the night (in character post, long)

    I think the talk of lawsuits is very unproductive.



    They know how pissed off the misdirected nerfs were. I only see a lawsuit's value being in communicating more of that kind of feeling. Thus, and since they already know where monks are at in terms of how they feel, then what's the point of a lawsuit?



    I think a lawsuit is a distraction.



    I'd much rather see talk focus what got us to this position and how the Dev Team as a whole can avoid this kind of thing which ends up being bad for everyone involved.



    They ended up "there" with monks by listening to a non-monk and another PLAYER (Furor) when making this Dev Team decision. Given that start it's amazing to me why we are even wondering how and why this all came to pass. Furor's disdain for an entire class was given the official sanction of the Dev team. There's no deep dark secret there guys. That's just how it happened.



    And....that's how it can be fixed.



    My suggestion again to Alan(Absor), simply reverse in toto the nerf and start over again with Dev Team talks on this SANS the input of Furor.



    It's really that simple fellas.






    Goanad


    Creator of Sept 4 "The Worst Everquest Patch in History"(tm) </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=goa nad>Goanad</A> at: 11/21/02 10:23:18 am

  17. #97
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: Stillness in the night (in character post, long)

    Nobody said anything about a lawsuit, just that in any other business what Verant has done would be patently illegal. If someone decides to actually sue Verant, they have way too much time on their hands, and would probably only incite Sony to nerf more, in the hopes of eliminating the class by attrition.



    I would just like see a developer come in here, and talk about new ideas, instead of regurgatating something posted on sites elsewhere. See where, we, as a class, want to go.



    They know they messed up? Fine. Tell us: What are you doing to correct the issue, and give us a time frame on when it will be implemented. That shows respect for paying customers; ignoring us does not.



    To the trolls and those who have nothing better to say thank "@#%$ you, you ruined my class, monks deserve to die, you were too good for to long, Absor suck my virtual penis, my class blows so yours should too, blah, blah" simply put them on /ignore. You don't have to pay them any mind.




    </p>

  18. #98
    Guest

    Default Re: Stillness in the night (in character post, long)

    Lawsuits because the game designers suddenly nerfed your character and changed him in ways you don't like?? Oh brother. You're taking this game way too seriously man, if you're talking about a lawsuit, and I do hope that post was meant tongue in cheek. If not...



    Turn off the computer, unplug it while you're at it, get out of your chair, and join the real world for a while. As the attorney above pointed out, there are many cases IRL where people are really hurt and a class action suit is justified. However, this is not one of those cases.



    It's a game. If it gives you more frustration than fun, cancel your account. Vote with your wallet. That's my 2c worth.


    </p>

  19. #99
    Monk Disciple
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    Default Re: its not the neft dammit

    Ill write it again for those of us hard of reading...



    Do they have a right to nerf? Yes



    Are they behaving poorly since the nerf? Yes



    Have we tried to feedback everyway possible? Yes



    Have they responded or engaged in discussion since? No



    What is the logical next step if you want to continue using a service but cannot contact the company because your concern is on a 'black list' of concerns? Law if it's on your side. Court cases determine whose side the law is on.



    So to re-hash.



    Had they stuck to their nefing guns by backing up what they did I would happily shut up, it's their game.



    They have not backed up or even explained what they did, except to say it's not right.



    The game is still fun. The company needs a kick in the ass.



    How a company cannot even try to mitigate the perception with all their monk customers is really scarey.



    Personally I think Absor is busy shopping his resume around when he should helping to enlighten us.



    But..this is all in jest..I'm not suing anyone, not that serious about it, mostly baffled and frustrated.


    Brotor Tiller

    61 Monk

    Rathe

    League of Levity</p>
    All general statements are wrong.

  20. #100
    Guest

    Default Re: its not the neft dammit

    For me alot of it is about accountability vis a vis a loyal customer base.



    The idea that in the EULA we, the customers, have no rights and Sony has all the rights seems unbalanced, one sided and against the universally espoused values of fairplay and justice.



    I do not want to get into the legal technicalities. However, I would say that continued action of this nature by software publishers will probably lead to wholesale reform in EULA law.



    There are to my understanding several initiatives already under way regarding software licensing and EULA.



    I think that large software companies may just be the robber barons of the 21st century and a legislative response may result to address the bargaining power disparity between software user and publishers.



    Thanks for nothing, Sony. (tm)



    Valdor


    </p>

  21. #101

    Default Re: its not the neft dammit

    boy evil

    i can think of several games that are costly both in time, equipment and frustration .......



    shall we start with ........ golf??



    we can then move on to ....... bowling??



    or how about ....... pool??


    </p>

  22. #102
    Guest

    Default Re: its not the neft dammit

    a lawsuit <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol">



    Omg you need to get laid.



    <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin">


    <div style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:large;">+</span><span style="font-size:large;">=</span>
    Cromulent Mcgarnacle
    Level 63 Grandmaster Monk
    Inspect my Dingleberries!!
    </div></p>

  23. #103
    Guest

    Default Re: its not the nerf dammit

    Heheh, couple points.



    1) Point to another game that give me the same enjoyment for the money.



    Hmmm, let's see.... 30 bucks each for Original, Kunark, Velious, Luclin, (haven't bought PoP yet), x 2 accounts,



    About..... $240 bucks



    Two accounts at 10 bucks / month x 3.5 years...



    About..... $840 bucks



    Looks like just shy of 1100 bucks I've spent to enjoy this game. Maybe I should point to 8 or 9 games I've enjoyed instead?



    2) Lawsuit..... sounds silly does it? There's a lawsuit going on in the USA launched against McDonald's by parents of fat children. Like's it's McDonald's fault their kids are fat. Lawsuit against a game company for changing the rules after 3 years doesn't seem so silly. Somewhere around 1973 when I was watching Sesame Street I learned that changing the rules in the middle of the game was called "Cheating".



    Mala



    Edit: Bah, my math sucks.


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=mal achai@monklybusiness43508>Malachai</A> at: 11/22/02 2:20:38 pm

  24. #104
    Guest

    Default Re: its not the neft dammit

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr> shall we start with ........ golf??



    we can then move on to ....... bowling??



    or how about ....... pool?? <hr></blockquote> Ok, I'll grant you that some RL games can run as high just based on the equipment. But now you let me make my point in a different way.



    So what do you do if the golf course you play on decides to suddenly switch your clubs out on you to a shovel on the 15th hole? How about if they move the hole as you are putting to it? Change your score on a whim? Hit you with unwarranted handicapps? How about they do all of these things, then refuse to talk to you about it before, during, and afterwards? Oh, and this is the only golf course there is, btw. You can't pick up and play golf somewhere else. You can play pool, or bowing, but not golf.


    Raviel Darkfyre

    <table style="filter:glow(color=Red, strength=3)">
    <font color="black" size=2>Insidious Blood</font></table></p>

  25. #105
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: its not the neft dammit

    There is another golf course right down the road. Its called Dark Ages of Camelot...


    </p>

  26. #106
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    to stretch a bad analogy further...



    Yes, the golf course down the road is currently accepting applications, but part of the application process is that you must man the club house, take orders from the established member at the pool, mow the 13th Fairway, scrub balls at the driving range, clean the algae out of the ponds and restripe the parking lot before being allowed to tee off on your first round of golf.



    Not only that, but this is only a 9 hole course compared to an 18 hole course (making you wonder what you were doing on the 13th hole fairway, anyway) and your foursome is comprised of people you picked up telephone numbers off of the bulliten board cause your old foursome is still back at the first golf course.



    And this is what it would be like from the point of view of a player at the higher levels that has been guilded for the past 2 years - always developing their favorite character. To start all over again and work their way up to the top of the game... they may as well not have any other golf course to go to.


    <div style="text-align:center">

    A Luclin Original</div></p>

  27. #107

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    my point was that eq isnt the only game in town ... and quite frankly ... golf course do change the rules all the time ... by moving the hole adding hazards changing the rules depending on the season .... bowling they change the conditions of the lanes regularly .... pool ... well every table every house has its own set of "rules"


    </p>

  28. #108

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    and they all cost money ... and depending on what level and frequency of play that can be considerable



    and you said name another game ... and that most people couldnt .... well i just did ... the same kind of conditions exist everywhere ... dont get carried away



    yes verant screwed this one ... BIG TIME ... instead of going on and on and on and on ... try coming up w/ some constructive suggestions ... take responsibility for improving the conditions not just for your self but every one ... and frankly if ya dont like the game (rules included) then quit like others .... you dont have to put up with it ... stop pay

    in the bill ...end of storey



    and those suits agains mcdonalds and the other fast food stands and every one else for that manner are out of hand ... people need to start taking responsibility for themselves .. and quit lookin for a quick buck


    </p>

  29. #109
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    I would like to thank my fellow monks for their thoughts and comments. Many eloquent and right to the point. My response will not be so eloquent but I will make my point.



    Screw you Absor..too little too late. The monk class atm is dead. Many of you will say otherwise. You are wrong.



    Monks pull as well as ever..LOL



    Was with a group in Chardok the other day. I was playing my chanter since my gimp monk is begging for coppers in the Nexus currently. I watched the paladin run into the lair of the Grandmaster Herbalist, or whatever, pacify like 7 mobs and pull out the Grandmaster...Tell me again wth we need the monk for? Did you say damage? PFT give me any caster or let the cleric swing...monks are gimps.. just that simple.



    FYI.. my main, and first character, is a human monk 61st level with many AA's. I am embarassed to be a monk!



    As one of my sisters said earlier, if I wanna be demoralized I'll go to work.. LOL.. gotta love that.



    If any of you happen by the Nexus on the Inny server pls be kind and toss some coppers in my cup. I am saving up to start a new vocation.. something better at melee like a cleric maybe..



    Sony absolutely disgusts me...pft






    Brother Dracuul Dragonclaw

    Grandmaster of the Tranquil

    Champions of the Rose</p>

  30. #110
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr> There is another golf course right down the road. Its called Dark Ages of Camelot... <hr></blockquote> No, not golf. That'd be bowling. (DAoC isn't EQ.) Oh, and your golf clubs don't help you bowl... so they are a wasted investment collecting dust in the basement, much like your Monk does now. And I did quit, same week the nerf went live.


    Raviel Darkfyre

    <table style="filter:glow(color=Red, strength=3)">
    <font color="black" size=2>Insidious Blood</font></table></p>

  31. #111
    Monk Disciple
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    167

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    Yes I do need to get laid..but that's beside the point.


    Brotor Tiller

    61 Monk

    Rathe

    League of Levity</p>
    All general statements are wrong.

  32. #112
    Apostle Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Somewhere in middle america
    Posts
    250

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    i wonder absor, dos hti have anything to do with the post i made on graffes asking you at SOE to be more honest and upfront with monks? and something to do with me calling you a liar?





    at any rate i apperciate the info you FINALY gave to the monk public, you may have just ignioted a shitstorm, but at least you let us out of the dar for once.


    <div style="text-align:center"><pre> +-------------------------------------------------------+
    | || Moltenfists the Champion of War |
    | || ___ Grandmaster |
    | || /. . The Seventh Hammer |
    | * ||___ - /___* * |
    | *( |)__/. .\__()* Making Norrath more tranquil, |
    | * || | ^ | * One dead mob at a time. |
    +-------------------------------------------------------+</pre></div></p>
    Keeping the world clean of stupidity, one idiot poster at a time.

  33. #113
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    I must say. Since the nerf I played my monk (50 and eager for 51) exactly 2x. That was to farm skins for my "old first main" 20th druid, to raise tailor skill...played the druid again and lo and behold..he can now , in three weeks, quad what my monk loses half life on....ultra tanks????

    get over it. monks cant carry cash to any extent till they invest 1000s of pp..gleaned from kills solo mostly...cause cant kill the group from being a mana sponge for the cleric by being heavy!!!

    You have nuked the class, we are glowing....just shoot us in the dark and get it over with.. mabe start ninja..that is popular in your new market of japan and korea


    </p>

  34. #114
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    I have never seen a more arrogant, self-centered bunch of whining cry-babies in my life. Not even at the Day Care!! My god, you all whine and whine and whine about the same things over and over and over.



    I've stopped looking for monks now because you guys whine so much about the nerf, unless I personally know the monk. Shadowknights are great FD splitters for XP groups in the planes. And can control aggro on adds in a pinch.



    If you're not having fun playing the game still, after the nerf, quit the freaking game. It's that simple. Not having fun? Don't play.



    ~Aly


    </p>

  35. #115
    Guest

    Default Thank you!

    Dear Alyssia Laterose,



    Thank you for your eloquent summation of our silliness that put it all into perspective for me. I know many of my brethren monks will not look deep enough into your words. They will think things like, “this idiot isn’t even a monk” and “this retard who refuses to even group with monks tells me how to play?” and, because they perceive you as being devoid of any comprehension regarding our “balancing”, consider you unfit to render a viable opinion. Furthermore, they will take your words as suspect because you, a non-monk, have come to the monk boards, to a special forum created just to talk about the change, and posted in a thread where Absor himself says the change was not quite what SoE wanted, your insightful and constructive comparisons between us and a daycare center.



    Your special message must NOT be lost -- that it is better to walk away than attempt to fix a mistake. Your sermon of “quitters rule” must be heard. And, though your words may sound to some like those of small, foolish child, the importance of quitting is all that counts. You are like Joan of Arc, had Joan of Arc told the armies of France to “quit the freaking game. It's that simple.”



    To think, all it took was the objective, unbiased, un-cluttered by understanding of game mechanics mind of an outsider to make it all clear. Thank you so much.



    Yours truly,



    Utal,

    Reformed Crybaby Monk




    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=uta lsaryrn>Utal Saryrn</A> at: 11/26/02 7:44:40 am

  36. #116
    Guest

    Default Re: Thank you!

    <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin">


    Raviel Darkfyre

    <table style="filter:glow(color=Red, strength=3)">
    <font color="black" size=2>Insidious Blood</font></table></p>

  37. #117
    Guest

    Default Re: Thank you!

    Waiting...

    Ok, it took you 2 months to say you 'may' have made a mistake, How long will it be before we see anything?

    My guess is over a year, Im not waiting on more changes, I'm accepting how my monk as he is now (55 - average gear), and trying to play him as.

    If it gets too painful (already gave up on soloing and sold my Fungi for upgrades - ugh!), I'll go back to my druid or my now 34 Beastlord, I wont quit the game over it yet, until something better comes along.

    I agree with a lot of the other posts (haven't read em all), I'm just not as young and quick to act as I once was <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> so I'll stick it out for a while and see what happens, EQ is still fun for me, so I'll keep playing and see what happens.



    Fhen 55 monk C-T


    </p>

  38. #118
    Guest

    Default Re: Thank you!

    LMAO UTAL!!!



    Thanks for cheering me up.



    Thanks for nothing, Sony. (tm)



    Valdor


    </p>

  39. #119
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    First off, let me say that I am grateful that we finally got some feedback from Verant. The total lack of response before and after the nerf was rather upsetting. Still, I fear that Absor's posting was not one we should be pleased by because of the following comment:



    "Monks won’t be going back to the uber-tanks they were, but there will be more changes made to try to more accurately reflect our intent. "



    First, apparently Verant has bought into the "monks tank better than warriors" myth as evidenced by the "uber-tanks" comment. As far as I now, the best tanks pre-nerf were by far warriors. SK's and paladins were slightly ahead of us in taking damage and far superior to us in taunting ability. We were well ahead of rogues and rangers and bards in tanking ability. Sure, there might have been special cases where a monk was the best choice for a tank, but those were few and far between. Secondly, Absor mentions that the changes to the nerf will be made to "more accurately reflect our intent." My gut tells me that this means that the nerf was almost, but not quite what they intended it to be. Any change to it will probably be minor or will only affect a small percentage of monks. I am sure it will be an improvement for us, but I anticipate that it will be a barely noticable improvement for most of us.



    Something that annoys me is that people assume soloing ability is the same as tanking ability. Monks used to solo good, therefore, that must mean they are good tanks. Well, druids solo really, really well, but they suck as tanks. Bards are incredibly good soloers, but they kind of suck as tanks as well. There is little or no connection between the two functions.



    Another thing that annoys me is the argument that our ability to rampage tank means we were too good at tanking. We can rampage tank because we can FD if we get in trouble and get healed at the healer's leisure while in FD mode. Then we can pop right back up and usually be back on the rampage list very shortly if necessary.



    Regarding the idea of a lawsuit:



    As much as I detest the monk nerf, a lawsuit is pointless. The BEST you could hope to accomplish would be a refund or perhaps you could get them to hand you a CD with your character file burned onto it (fat lot of good that would do you). More than likely, it would get thrown out of court very quickly. Verant actually owns the computers that the data is on. They own the software that runs on the computers. They own the buildings the computers are in and the land the buildings are on. You are renting (not buying) a service from them. When you don't like the service, all you can do is stop renting, because you don't build equity when you rent. Imagine if you will that you are the best Mortal Kombat player at the local arcade and the high score list is composed entirely of your initials. Then one day the owner of the arcade does something to the game and the high score list is erased. All those hours of "work" are down the drain. Can you sue? Of course you can't. Well, strictly speaking, that's not quite true. You can sue about anything, no matter how silly. It's just that you won't win if you do.



    Someone mentioned that EULA agreements are not as ironclad as they appear. This is true. If a EULA makes an unreasonable or illegal stipulation, such as, "If you break one of these rules, we can come to your house and take your first born child to be our slave.", even if you click on it that you agree, you are not bound by that EULA. However, the Verant EULA deals only with copyright law (which is pretty much standard in all EULA's and is supported by United States and international law) and with rules related to your actions within the game (such as spamming a zone with pornographic language). Verant stays well within its rights in these areas. The only thing I can think of that you might get them for in court would be if they banned you and did not refund money for game-time you had not yet utilized but had paid for. Although their EULA says they can do this (I believe), I think you could probably get your money back if you wanted to take them to court over it. But is it really worth going to court for such a small amount of money? Verant could, if they wanted to, make a silly rule like, "Smiling while jumping up and down repeatedly is a bannable offense." It's stupid, but it's perfectly legal if it's in the EULA. Of course, stupid rules like that would probably put them out of business.



    I expect that it will be a long time before we see a change for the better and that when it occurs, it will probably be unsatisfactory for most of us. Verant has decided what they think a monk should be. Even if it isn't justifiable, or well thought out, it is their "Vision" (TM) for monks.



    Have I mentioned how ticked off I was to find out that they didn't actually test monks before or after the nerf, but used mathematical models? I mean, how hard would it have been to create actual monk characters to test it out with? You're GM's for crying out loud! Would you get in an experimental new plane that had never actually flown, but had been tested out extensively with computer modelling? There's a reason such methods are not used for final testing.



    And what's with all these accusations of monk whining? Apparently, saying, "It's not fair what Verant did to monks!" is a whine, but saying, "It's not fair what monks can do! They should be nerfed!", or "Monks are encroaching on our niche in the game as <insert classname>!" is not a whine.



    In all fairness, some of the people that argue against the monk nerf exaggerate its effect a little. Some even do so to an extreme degree. But many people have legitimate concerns and legitimate data to back up their concerns.



    I have no intention of quitting EQ at the moment. Although the monk nerf hurt, my monk is still playable. Of course, I am easily within the top 5% equipment-wise of monks my level (59). Thus, the nerf didn't totally cripple me like it did so many of my monk brethren. I am maybe 80% of the monk I was before the nerf, instead of 60% like most monks. If our worst fears come to pass and the ultimate fate of monks is to become even more nerfed in a stealthy style by being denied the same quality of improvements that other melee classes get in PoP, then maybe I will consider retiring for good. Until then, I will bide my time and hope for the best.




    Argfeld

    Level 59 Monk

    Order of the Scattered Winds

    Bertoxxulous



    </p>

  40. #120
    Ascendant Stone Fist DebuJones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
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    California
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    1,467

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    Nice post Argfeld. These are the types of posts that I suspect Sony will read and give serious consideration to...



    I'd like to see clear, concise posts like this somehow put into their own area...kinda like a Best Of Monkly-Business Posts section....seriously....


    </p>
    "That's Mr. Soybean if you're nasty" - Soygen

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