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Thread: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

  1. #1
    Druid in disguise Newbie Monk
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    Default From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>With the change to Monks have they achieved the result you wanted?



    At this point we donít think that we have achieved what we wanted with Monks. Right now it seems to be having too much of an impact on Monks who arenít the top 5%. Weíll be going back and looking into it some more.



    We were really happy with the projected results our internal testing had for the changes, but that just didnít pan out when it went onto the live servers.



    Monks wonít be going back to the uber-tanks they were, but there will be more changes made to try to more accurately reflect our intent.

    <hr></blockquote>



    There's not much more I can add on this until we get a chance to look into this thing further. But we are going to look into it, and we have been reading your comments.



    A






    </p>

  2. #2
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    /cheer Absor!! There is hope for monkies <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"> ... well, im just glad to see ya guys at these boards and reading the posts, makes me feal like ya guys care <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">



    (p.s. yes i am a druid, but yes i do have a brother with a monkie as his main, whom i duel box much)


    Stellen

    59th Druid of Tunare
    Proud Member of Survivors of the Minion</p>

  3. #3
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default re:From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    Thanks Absor, I hope you can glean some useful information out of this forum.



    /em hides pitchfork and torch in light of possible communication....


    </p>

  4. #4
    Guest

    Default From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    Glad to hear its being reviewed again. I'm sure some kinf of medium can be found in reducing the nerf on lower level/equipped players and moving it to the uber ones as intended.


    <hr />My "HP/AC wrong" Magelo
    Curscale Bloodyscales < Knights of Reverence > Xev</p>

  5. #5
    Guest

    Default Thanks

    Thanks for posting Absor. A thread _started_ by you goes a long way towards us having some level of confidence that the issue really is being looked at.



    One point of note about the quote - personally, in all my 60 levels, I was never an "uber" tank. Take an un-nerfed mid-50s monk with basically Acrylia armour and put them in front of any sebilis frog. Do the same with any plate class. Observe who tanks better.



    I know who tanks better, since I found myself as the only tank in a group in Seb at around 57 (pre-nerf) - it was not pretty. Plate classes never appeared to have the same issues with a) running out of HP, b) being able to keep the mobs off the casters, c) sweating whether the CH was going to hit. Having said that, we got by, and I don't understand why anyone could object to a group getting by when the alternative would be... no group.



    Don't believe the hype - do the testing in the "real world".


    </p>

  6. #6
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    I would like so say that this is EXACTLY what we were looking for; open comunication. Thanks for not ignoring us forever, i am sure that an appropriot solution can be reached. But i IMPLORE you, look at some of the sugestions made by monks here. Just look at them with an open mind.



    Once again, thanks for your time.


    </p>

  7. #7
    Monk Disciple
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    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    Nice !



    We are more than happy to go over any other projected fixes with you and give you our opinions and such.



    I'd recommend you let us have a look at anything else before you actually adjust it..please..






    Brotor Tiller

    61 Monk

    Rathe

    League of Levity</p>
    All general statements are wrong.

  8. #8
    Druid in disguise Newbie Monk
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    Default OMG!!!

    Imagine my surprise when after expecting the usual */em peruse the boards, sink into my chair with dishearted and beaten attitude* after seeing no replys by Absor or any of the dev team despite our considerable prostrations for communication. I mean, wtf?!?! This is progress indeed, and I'm actually excited to be reading the boards!

    I hope this is more than a smokescreen though, as I doubt my already frayed nerves and broken spirit can't take much more.

    Thank you Absor. Really. Finally the monk community has reason to believe our voices are being heard and that our concerns are being discussed.

    Man, it feels good to have your spirits uplifted once in awhile <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">



    Fieyrfli Whistlefists

    Human monkette of Karana

    Haven of Heroes




    </p>

  9. #9
    Guest

    Default Why monk



    I'm sorry, but any line that begins with "uber tank they once where" show's a deep bias not born out in the vast majority of EQ gameplay. Any "fix" that uses that as an established truth will be broken.



    Thanks for wasting my time levelling a monk. Can I petition to get my levels back so I can play a class I enjoy?




    </p>

  10. #10
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    Appreciate the post Absor. Its good to finally get some measure of feedback.



    Jagaar

    56 Human Monk

    Tunare


    </p>

  11. #11
    Druid in disguise Newbie Monk
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    Default *shivers*

    Yeah, actually that line makes me somewhat nervous myself... hope he's refering to the 1st tier, mondo uber guild monkies...


    </p>

  12. #12
    Guest

    Default Re: *shivers*

    Absor,



    At 52, i've never been considered "Monks wonít be going back to the uber-tanks they were"



    Decent equipment, and on a good day if the random hits are going my way and not in favor of my guildmates I can out dmg the 60 ranger and 60 warrior and tank for a few moments until I FD or stop attacking (my primary weapon is 16/22)



    I've tanked the Sentinels in Kael on pulls, meaning about 3 quick rounds while I pull, back up, Stonestance and then FD

    Key is SS and FD. If I didnt FD I'd die (and sometimes do since FD still has a habit of not notifying on a failed FD (maybe a message "Monster_00 does not believe you are dead!"))



    Key is FD, because it only takes one pull run for the clerics to learn not to heal a monk on a pull, because I can't taunt and certainly can't get the aggro up that a heal causes if I'm not FD.



    I've gotten into most of they high end game short of luclin/pop key'd areas. And I'm not a choice for tanks, monks I've grouped with (up to 60+) are not the choice for tanks, please next time you are considering a change to the class, notify in advance as you did the paladins so that you can get feedback in advance and make the change once after getting both sides of the story. Personally I prefer not to rant on "this class is overpowered" and would rather say "monks would be better off if".



    When someone starts in on "That other class is overpowered because" it may be that they are just not happy with the way their class is, not because something is actually wrong. Maybe the solution to the monk mitigation is to put monks back to where we were, and increase warrior skills. Give warriors a better taunt or stun, or AOE taunts?



    Always be suspicious of someone that wants you to take something from someone else. No one will ever tell you that their class is the overpowered one.



    Zebadyah

    The Nameless

    Elements of Fury




    </p>

  13. #13
    Guest

    Default Re: *shivers*

    I got an idea you can send the dev's if you can absor. Either nerf the hp/stam amounds on higher end gear, or make a monk modifier on gear lower the hp and stam, while adding some avoidance skill ups. I'm just tired of doing /f


    <div style="text-align:center">Sionistic Triplefist

    59 Monk

    Veeshan</div></p>

  14. #14
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    First of all, I'd like to thank you, Absor, for taking the time to post something to the board.



    However, as a paying customer of SOE, I think that I (and the rest of the monks out there) am owed much more than a simple "we are going to look at it".



    1. I'd like the changes implemented to monk mitigation reversed immediately. You've admitted that the effect was not the one you desired, so why keep us suffering in the meantime? The 18/20 fists and the paladin nerf reversal were acted upon at the subsequent patching opportunities. Any less attention to a change that ruined the game for so many of us is quite frankly, an insult.



    2. I'd like an open honest discussion about what you guys would like to achieve, in terms of "balancing" the monk class. Monks were roundly criticized for claiming that the sky was falling when the nerf was initially announced. Sure, there was some bad behavior exhibited, but in general, history has now shown that the paranoia was justified. I think that the community picked up on the questionable way that the "nerf the monk" campaign was initiated by Furor, and rightfully feared the worst.



    Let's avoid a repeat of that, shall we?



    I've got tons more to say, but I'd like to see 1 and 2 to happen within the next ten days, as a show of good faith from SOE.



    Lest you think that making a minor adjustment to the nerfing is all that's needed, I'd at the very least expect an SOE representative to first address monk concerns regarding balancing changes made to their class. A few relevant issue floating in my head are concerning:

    - Why the monks have a weight limit if they have the defense of other leather wearers.

    - How being the best "non-situational" damage dealers means squat when you get pummeled anywhere but from the back of the mob.

    - Why warriors can do near monk damage when they focus on high strength, high damage equipment.

    - Why monks aren't given better aggro reduction tools, given our roles as damage dealers.

    - Why monks have been given mostly defensive disciplines and AA's, if we're supposed to be an offensive class.

    - Why if monks were a balanced part of the game before, say, Velious came out, why nerf sub 50 monks?

    - Why after all of the nerfs to monks, weapons for other classes like the Windblade were introduced without monk equivalents.

    - Why if high-end equipment was the cause of the supposed monk imbalance, why that high-end equipment wasn't fixed.

    - ...





    I'm sorry if this is a whole big can of worms, but I feel utterly betrayed in my time commitment that I have made to EQ. A couple of months ago, I was as happy as a clam playing this game, working on my epic, etc. I wasn't out-tanking any warriors. I wasn't ruining the game for anyone else in any way. Now, I feel that my choice in classes to play was totally and completely the wrong one. I feel that my character is at a severe disadvantage relative to every single other class in the game, for no other reason than that the game designers decided to drastically change the rules on me.



    How are you going to deal with that in a meaningful way?






    Seske Corpse

    52nd Level Monk

    Luclin Server

    Circle of Radiance Guild

    My Magelo Profile</p>

  15. #15
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    Thanks Absor but what about the other question that was asked that sometimes directly contradicts the question you posted:



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Any chance of lowering the re-use time on some of the Monk abilities/disciplines as compensation for the other changes?



    We donít view balancing classes in EverQuest as a zero sum game. When we have to make a correction to a serious flaw, itís not always realistic to expect some other benefit as ďcompensation.Ē



    Monks did need to have some tuning down because they took less damage over time than Warriors. Whether it was through avoidance or mitigation, the problem was that when placed in front of any NPC, the monks took the least melee damage.



    This had to be tuned down, but that doesnít necessitate giving them a lollypop as a distraction, just because they were brought back to what they always should have been. To be honest, I donít think weíd want to insult peopleís intelligence that way. Iíd rather be straightforward with our reasons for making changes than play sleight-of-hand games.



    That said, independent of the monk changes, we are looking to make all abilities scale a little better in their re-use time eventually, as you should be able to see with the shorter reuse times that are assigned to most of the new PoP abilities and the new /SHIELD command.



    We really donít like the standard being ďAbilities that are prohibitively long in their reuse time.Ē Yes, some should definitely remain longer, but not every ability needs to be something thatís usable every few hours or days

    <hr></blockquote>



    1)Whether it was through avoidance or mitigation, the problem was that when placed in front of any NPC, the monks took the least melee damage.



    Hmmm, methinks more mathematical models instead of actual live testing. Cmon Alan give us just a ballpark figure of how long you guys studied monks "taking the least melee damage" and what were your testing procedures.



    2)just because they were brought back to what they always should have been



    Even though this contradicts "At this point we donít think that we have achieved what we wanted with Monks.", I find it humorous that there's still the implied "players" fault that this mess occured. You guys are the ones that put the "ITEMS" in the game that most monks perceive as the reason for our nerf. It's painfully obvious that revisiting the "item" issue is too much work so then every monk (except the most well-equipped) bears the wrath of the "what we should have always been" nonsense.



    3)Iíd rather be straightforward with our reasons for making changes than play sleight-of-hand games.



    Thats why I've been checking this forum for almost a month now because you guys have been so "straightfoward" with your reasons. If telling people to go to a dead link in the patch message for further answers is not sleight-of-hand then I don't know what is.



    You know, Absor, I do wanna thank you for coming here and getting your post count up to 21, but you guys have enraged a whole community and it would be nice if once, just once you could open up some kind of discussion thread and "ACTIVELY" participate in it. Cut-n-Paste is not my idea of listening to your customers.



    I'm sorry if I offended my fellow monks, but I thought I would include what else was said in that discussion. It appears to me that their wanting to deal with us if only slightly. I think screwing up my class deserves a little bit better than another "We're looking into it".


    Peacedog AoxomoxoA
    58th Smiling Deadhead Monk of
    the Lovelight Clan





    Tunare</p>

  16. #16
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    Actually they were dead on with the compensation thing. Alot of monks were pretty much saying "oh your gonna take this away from us? well give us this then so we will be back in good position" "we dont want you in that position" "WWAAAHH" I can see why they dont post too much.



    they did have a point about monks taking less damage too. When mobs are hitting monks and warriors for max damage anyway, why not have the class that dodges more tank it? Just like an ae, since your ac doesnt help tune the damage down, get hp to soften it.



    I agree the developers are kinda of out of touch, but not THAT much.


    <div style="text-align:center">Sionistic Triplefist

    59 Monk

    Veeshan</div></p>

  17. #17
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    This is a simple issue to address Alan... it's not complex, and it doesn't need modelling.



    1) Reverse the nerf.



    2) Change the mitigation AA into an ATTK AA.



    Ontop of the mitigation boost that plate classes were given, they will now be a better tank... you'll only be targetting upper level Monks... Monks will actually be focused toward their role, rather than merely nerfed.



    And please, stay away from the models..... try.... **looks around** ... playing the game.



    Either way, thankyou for posting. It's much appreciated even if overdue.


    <hr />
    <div>
    -- Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist, Iksar Monk of Xev.
    </div>
    <div>
    -- Kanrax, Iksar Beastlord of Xev.
    </div>
    <div>
    Dubious member of Hawkestone.
    </div>


    <div>

    "I stare, it stares back.

    I long to know its feelings.

    It demurs. Lunch, then."


    </div></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=car nagh>Carnagh</A> at: 11/14/02 7:06:48 pm

  18. #18
    Guest

    Default Thanks Absor.

    Thanks for letting us know, Absor! We're glad that you're reading everything here, it really means a lot to us. I hope any changes that are made bring monks back into having a role in the game... Now, how about them Windblades, yo?






    </p>

  19. #19
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    Quit screwing with the monk class and put them back where they were. All i gotta say.


    </p>

  20. #20
    Guest

    Default Re: Thanks Absor.

    I agree with Carnagh's post above. Short of re-itemizing existing equipment, this would be a simple solution, and be most likely to achieve the desired result.



    Jagaar

    56 Human Monk

    Tunare


    </p>

  21. #21
    Guest

    Default er

    "When mobs are hitting monks and warriors for max damage anyway"



    Then the mobs are broken...



    It's too easy to blame the class, but the monk class has the same skillset it did in Kunark, with the same caps. VI chose for the longest time to make challenge through insane ATK values/HPs. In PoP they appear to have made a lot of effort to get away from that - too bad they didn't retune mobs based on their new direction too.



    I mean just look, on the one hand yopu have the "soft cap" snicker, which is basically the highest atk value a mob can have (per expansion), and on the other hand, the uber mobs have insane ATK that can never be matched in AC.



    So I say again, the MOBS ARE BROKEN, not the classes.




    </p>

  22. #22
    Ascendant Ashenhand
    Join Date
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    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    Absor, I want to thank you for reaching out to the monk community.



    We all appreciate it more than you realize.



    One point I want to make is this:

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    "Monks wonít be going back to the uber-tanks they were,

    but there will be more changes made to try to more

    accurately reflect our intent."

    <hr></blockquote>

    The only monks that are uber-tanks are the ones who loot the absolute best gear available and have many AA points spent. Perhaps the solution would be to add some weight to the insane all/all gear, or back off the AC some. Another approach would be to refund some of the AA skills that contribute to the imbalance and rework them. Or look at both gear and AA skills, I don't know. I'm no expert or number cruncher I just know that we are broken based on two and a half years play experience with the class.



    Just for edification purposes, use my magelo to create a monk and try that gear combo. Attempting to pursue my monkly career has been a real challenge with this setup. (EDIT: post nerf I mean and no AA except for run1)



    In all seriousness, the vast majority of monks have never been the tank of choice in raids or groups. We always ceded the tanking duties to plate classes or hybrids. Well, rangers could go either way depending on gear, but all jokes aside warriors remain the best tank unless the monk is absolutely top tier equipped, and AA'd to the max.



    But most of all thank you for posting to let us know we are heard!



    <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">


    <div align="center">Sontor

    Phalanx

    Tribunal
    </div></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=son tor>Sontor</A>* at: 11/14/02 9:16:49 pm

  23. #23
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    Way too little... too late.


    </p>

  24. #24
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    Thanks for the reply. My only sugestion is to return monks mitigation to what it was. Remove combat stability and innate defense them skill's alone would balence the monk out with the rest. You could add in some other type of skill's that only monks would get in there place. Restoring balence back to the non uber monks.



    Refund the monk's points spent on them skill's. Give us some skill's that would benifit the monk class. maybe a skill that makes disc's last 5 % 10 % 25 % longer or something in the opposite direction. Like haveing disc reuse timers decrese with skill lvl's bought. If not them idea's how about a monk only skill that grants a extra 5% to our avoidance. make the skill we get go up in stages and have it cost the same amount of points combat stability and innate defense combined require to obtain.



    Just some idea's for ya to think about as i am sure there are probley other people around with better idea's for skill's. The biggest problem with high end monk's ever tanking nearly as well as warrior's was the mitigation they got from combat stability and innate defense. with such a low soft cap on plate classes AC. monks was bound to catch up to them.


    </p>

  25. #25
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    I do not want to see any class get nerfed, but, if monks were overpowered, then every caster class is overpowered. Clerics melee almost as well as many paladins now plus have much better buffs and healing. Druids, wizards and necros can solo for exp faster than many entire groups. Shamans can solo mobs that take multiple balanced groups of other classes to kill. Ranger archery is overpowered. And, either rogues need their defense or their offense seriously nerfed. Personally, I do not think any of these things need changed, nor do I think monks were too powerful pre-nerf.



    Why shouldn't a monk take less damage over time than a warrior. To me, this makes sence. The whole purpose of being a monk is to inflict damage while not getting hit. I think that monks should take more damage per hit than warriors but should avoid a much larger percentage with more regularity than they currently do.



    The problem is that monks should not have as many hp as warriors do. This could be fixed quite easily by changing the hp oriented AA's to more offensive ones and by adding weight to the high hp all/all items. I think a good unbuffed HP goal would be around 2000-2200 hp for non-ubber 60 monks and 3800-4500 hp for buffed ubber monks. I think this coupled with pre-nerf defense and better avoidance skills would balance them, or come close. A monk should be able go over this hp limit but only at a serious hit to his AC from going overweight. Also adding a degradation of avoidance skills when going overweight would futher balance this issue.



    Of course PoP has further unbalanced the classes but that needs to be addressed separately.




    Clawr 55th Monk

    Magelo profile "http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=364988

    Bomar 54th Druid


    Clan of Unity


    Karana Server


    </p>

  26. #26
    SkyKungfu
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    Took long enough, way to long. And the answer is very cheap after waiting 2 months. However, with the very poor CS from Sony in mind thats at least more than we got over 2 months.



    Even worse is that they still miss the point. They have no clue. At lvl 60 with decent gear (NOT uber) I never came close to tank as good as knights, leave allone warriors.



    Sky


    </p>

  27. #27
    Guest

    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    First off, thanks for finally giving us SOME sort of reply.



    Secondly:



    "There's not much more I can add on this until we get a chance to look into this thing further. But we are going to look into it, and we have been reading your comments."



    WHEN are you going to look into it? WHEN you do get a "chance" to look into the matter further, are you going to be asking for any kind of feedback from the group of people who have the BEST idea as to how the monk class works? (By that, I mean this message board community.)



    Monks have been shut out in the cold since the the mitigation nerf was announced. Do NOT insult our intelligence by occasionally throwing some table scraps in our direction and hoping we mistake it for a full course meal because we're too starved and bewildered to know any better.



    A large portion of the monk community is mad as hell right now, and justifiably so. I dont' expect to go back to pre-nerf mitigation, and to be honest, I fully expect to be nerfed at least twice more. But for the love of humanity (because from the looks of it, you guys sure don't love monks), GIVE US DETAILS AND FEEDBACK!



    Your post was another step in the right direction, Absor. Take a few more steps, and you might win back some of the respect and trust you (SoE collectively) have lost in the past month.




    Slathgar Ebonscale, lvl 52 (retired)

    Slathgar Ebonflame, lvl 30 and climbing

    Xev server</p>

  28. #28
    Ascendant Stone Fist
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    Default Re: From the D&P panel at Fan Faire

    As Carnagh says, if you're going to re-balance the monk nerf, then please give some thought to actually RE-BALANCING MONKS, rather than simply changing the 'value' of the mitigation nerf.



    Currently you've nerfed base mitigation and then allow L55+ monks to buy some mitigation back at higher levels with AAXP.

    This just compounds the problems and the collateral damage from the nerf. (the only way to fix monks with the current nerf, would be to increase base damage, by damage table, 10-15% and there would still be issues)





    As has been said time and again a better way would to have simply taken away <span style="text-decoration:underline">all</span> monk mitigation AAXP (and replace them with some AAXP base damage increasing abilites), and if still needed a small base mitigation nerf at L61 or 65 (personally I'm not sure it would be, but maybe).





    This would have had the same affect, without hitting low level and poorly geared monks excessively AND would have made monks the damage dealers they need to be with reduced or effectively reduced mitigation.



    In short it would RE-BALANCE monks into a damage dealing class that cannot take hits (i.e. take away some defence/mitigation, give back a little offence/damage), rather than simply nerfing monks defence and turning them into an all round subpar class.

    (al la rangers post kunark - and you must understand this situation as you HAVE now fixed rangers.)


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fop oodzo@monklybusiness43508>Fopoodzo</A> at: 11/15/02 12:58:04 am

  29. #29
    Guest

    Default /th

    Of course I'm as happy as the most for finally knowing monks are being read.



    And to give my own oppinion, I really like the idea to upgrade the weight on unbalancing items to compensate. How about Flayed Barbarian Skin Leggings with the same stats but 10 stones of weight? I'm sure that those who already have them will get angry about the nerf, but I prefer a monk with a high melee'ing capability by its own power than by the power of the items it has.

    This way you should only change weight on most ALL/ALL items.



    One more thing:

    -If your decision is to nerf monks, I would like to see nice items for monks.

    -If your decision is to nerf the items, be careful of what you add to PoP loot.



    Take care and thx for the post <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">


    </p>

  30. #30
    Apostle Master
    Join Date
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    314

    Default Well

    I'm all for the non-uber monks getting unnerfed a little.



    However, being uber should have benefits. Just as a warrior decked out in the best gear can bust 10k hp buffed and tank damage better then a warrior who only has around 6k buffed...or heck, any class for that matter that has equipment/aa that grants them alot more survivability...there should be a difference between the top percentile monks and the lower.



    I get the feeling you're trying to bring down the Bruce Lees to the realm of the Ralph Machios ;(


    </p>

  31. #31
    Guest

    Default lemme just point out...

    Flayed barbarian skin leggings are MONK ONLY. Not all/all which is what VI attributed to our apparent ascendance (ya pun INTENDED). I dunno, Im guessing that if you take down the avatar of war, you should proabably end up with more than 6 ac pants.



    The problem this game has is it is running out of rewards to give because it is hitting artificial ceilings in the game mechanics, thereby bringing classes that are not supposed to be as good at one thing, closer to another that is. In short, damage scales, but AC does not.



    That sounds like EQ is done to me.


    </p>

  32. #32
    Guest

    Default Re: lemme just point out...

    All i wanted was a pepsi =( And they wouldn't give it to me!



    Just one pepsi =(






    Effix Solo

    65th Level Supermonkey





    </p>

  33. #33
    Druid in disguise Newbie Monk
    Join Date
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    Posts
    6

    Default Re: lemme just point out...

    I want first of all to Thank you for posting on the Monk board , your thoughts, and your thinking.



    I have a Monk, admittedly not my main, so not a newb, but not being a member of an Uber guild on my Server, he is also not "Twinked".



    I have been playing around to see the change at my levels - from 22 to 32 so far lived in Luclin, he's Iks, and has had a running mate that is similar level shaman.



    Well, I ran all around MS trying things out through these levels, and with the healing and buffing from the shaman, still noticed quite alot of dmg received differences . So, to see more, I gathered up a Train of mobs, 17 or so balanced group of Stones, Hoppers, and Zel's and took them around the zone, announcing that this train is mine and what I was doing it for, bringing the choo choo close to the NL building a few times, but never near players - I would run back thru the mobs if I saw a player near enough to aggro separate any mob. To the /ooc in zone many were worried what might happen, but Im not a trainer of people and delivered the Zels to the bandits ( who didn't survive btw), but en route stopped and FD'd and saw a few things:



    - my enchanter ( admittedly level 61 but his Defense skill is nowhere near the monk's current skill level) is sometimes better at DEFENSE facing mobs than is the monk;

    - FD failed without announcement 1 in 3 times, and failed with announcement 1 in 5;

    - ever since the "change" - aka nerf - I have had 3 times the series of "melee fizzies", aka 'you tried to punch,kick, etc, but miss' than I did note pre'nerf. Also, I had many many more series of 1 fullbub health drop at a time then previous to nerf .



    I have to agree, please just change our class back to pre-nerf as you did the Pallies; and help those poor warriors out with their abilities; or go in and fix/change some of that 'Uber' gear that has made the Uber Monk so devastating.



    Galopicasze

    32nd Monk

    TP Server



    ***As an aside, please check with your people and find out who is responsible for Enchanter thingies; noone from SoE / VI has responded to the Enchanter quandries on their boards in the 2+ years I have played an Enchanter. (my apologies to all my fellow monks, don't mean to try to hijack your threads)



    Thank You



    ***


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=phy lassein>Phylassein</A> at: 11/15/02 4:52:51 am

  34. #34
    Guest

    Default Re: lemme just point out...

    Thank you for the responce.



    Xykul 59th Lizard Monk


    </p>

  35. #35
    Guest

    Default Re: lemme just point out...

    Thanks for the heads up.



    I wish there were real tests with real mobs and varying gear, levels, skills to compare.



    Someone must have scribble a couple of numbers and thought it was enough.



    Please watch at the nerf this way:

    When paladins complained that making them 75% of warrior tanking and 75% of warriors melee didn't 75% overhall but much less, they had a point.

    In this case it is exactly the same.



    You can't watch just caps, average dps taken and say let's just nerf monk mitigation and that's it.



    Monks don't have remotely the HPs of other melees, don't have the same AC for most, don't remotely mitigate as well, don't have all the good aa skills, but do have the role to pull and did solo for a long time.



    %HP x %mitigation x %AC x %caps doesn't scale well at all.


    </p>

  36. #36
    Ascendant Stone Fist
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Posts
    1,501

    Default Re: lemme just point out...

    Yep it's all very well to identify something that isn't working as you want it too, and then change it so it's working how you want.



    HOWEVER you've still GOT to re-assess how that change affects other parts of the game/class (even if you've not changed those other parts directly).





    If they honestly believe they can nerf the crap out of a melee classes defence and NOT seriously change their role (most likely to that of gimp) well..... frankly I'm amazed they are running an online game like EQ.





    If you want to change the way a class works you need to look at every aspect of that class.





    Simply nerfing one (integral) aspect and saying "Yes that aspect now works as we want it to", with NO regard of how that changes the class balance with other <span style="text-decoration:underline">competing classes</span>, will lead to only ONE thing, a broken class.



    That to one degree or other is exactly what has happened to monks.



    I can only hope VI see sense and alter things around a bit.




    </p>

  37. #37
    Guest

    Default Re: Fixing the nerf

    Absor,

    Thank you for you post. I don't quite know why it has taken this long to get simple acknowledgement, but frankly, I don't see where that answer helps us any. The important thing is that this single change has decimated our class. I add my voice to those asking that you reverse the current nerf NOW, then figure out how to implement a change correctly by discussing the proposed solution with the monk community BEFORE throwing it on a production server.


    </p>

  38. #38
    Guest

    Default Re: Fixing the nerf

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    Simply nerfing one (integral) aspect and saying "Yes that aspect now works as we want it to", with NO regard of how that changes the class balance with other competing classes, will lead to only ONE thing, a broken class.

    <hr></blockquote>



    The incredible thing is they did this once before with the Ranger class and the Kunark expansion... broke the class completely because of exactly what you've said. Changed the Defence of the class without adapting any other aspect of the class dynamic to accomodate. They seemed genuinely confused at the time about having broken it.



    Alan, please try and learn by your previous mistakes. And remember, slowly, slowly catchy mankey... small changes, have big impact.


    <hr />
    <div>
    -- Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist, Iksar Monk of Xev.
    </div>
    <div>
    -- Kanrax, Iksar Beastlord of Xev.
    </div>
    <div>
    Dubious member of Hawkestone.
    </div>


    <div>

    "I stare, it stares back.

    I long to know its feelings.

    It demurs. Lunch, then."


    </div></p>

  39. #39
    Guest

    Default Re: Fixing the nerf

    The nerf was totally unjustified. There is no way in hell a Monk can stand in for a Warrior, any more than a Rogue or Ranger could. Monks simply haven't got the raw hitpoints necessary to fill that role, never have, and never will. I think people are consistently overlooking that.



    The ONLY classes we need to be balanced against are Warriors and Rogues. That's it.



    Warriors currently tank the best. That means they do the least damage. Rogues currently do the most damage, that means they should tank the worst. Monks should be midway between both in tanking and in dealing damage, unless you plan to give us massive damage upgrades and put us on par with rogue damage or above it, in which case I don't think most of us will care about having no tanking ability. I think you'll just end up ticking off the Rogues if you do that. You gave our top dealing damage ability to the Rogues durning Kunark balancing, it is not fair to take it back from them now. You're better off putting us in the middle.



    Warriors do their tanking by reducing the damage. We do ours by avoiding it. Of course we take less damage than a Warrior. Didn't you ever stop to think that there was a reason for that? Perhaps our low hitpoint totals? I still have 1500hp naked at L60. What does a Warrior have naked, 4000? His AA will boost it well beyond that, mine will not.



    Also you need to get over this cloth-chain-leather-plate class mentality. It makes no sense whatsoever in a fantasy game where steel can be as supple as cloth and cloth can be as hard as steel when imbued with the power of a God. That's a leftover from the pipe dreams of pre-Kunark days, I think it's time to throw that concept out.



    Repeal the nerf completely, and then figure out how you want to handle our re-tuning, and DISCUSS IT with us here. Once you find a solution that we can agree on, as we did before, then go ahead with the implementation of the changes.



    You should replace our defensive AA choices with OFFENSIVE ones. We need a boost in damage more than we need a boost in defense, assuming the nerf is removed. The only defensive AA that makes sense for us is the ability to totally avoid being hit by ripostes, and that would free us from having to be behind the mob to hit it just like Rogues. A riposte for 1000hp damage when you only have 4500hp is a BIG DEAL.


    Raviel Darkfyre

    <table style="filter:glow(color=Red, strength=3)">
    <font color="black" size=2>Insidious Blood</font></table></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=evi lnight>EvilNight</A> at: 11/15/02 9:09:26 am

  40. #40
    Guest

    Default Re: Fixing the nerf

    For those of you 'Appreciating' what Alan has contributed, realize that he has merely regurgitated what was stated at the fan faire. It is as if he has said nothing.


    <div style="text-align: center; font-size: 8pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">
    <select style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: #ffff7f; background-color: black">
    <option>[54 Monk] Chakyu (Human)</option>
    <option>[32 Bard] Kojiki (Wood Elf)</option>
    <option>[25 Shaman] Luxo (Ogre)</option>
    <option>[25 Warrior] Sinev (Dark Elf)</option>
    <option>[8 Beastlord] Rexx (Troll)</option>
    </select>
    ~ Cleaner of The Fools Republic</div></p>

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