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Thread: Whats wrong with monks?

  1. #1
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    Default Whats wrong with monks?

    Been thinking about this a lot recently. More than a lot. Hell I devote way to much time to this silly little game, but on this particular topic, Ill digress.



    So, that said, what was, or is currently wrong with monks?



    Was it our tanking ability? Well, since VI busted mitigation end game, sorta, but did it warrent the ass reaming nerf we got? No.



    Was it our damage? Makes no sence for other classes to get a uncorrected, blatantly imbalancing weapon taht puts them at or above our dps... but really. No. Our damage wasnt broken, if anything needed a buff to get up to speed.



    So, then, was was it taht was so broken about monks? What really did we do that was so outbalancing?



    Answer I am thinking: Population



    I think, frankly, we were dominating the classes over the others to a too large of a degree. Face it, with Luclin, we became the twink class of choice, and those monks grow up. Monks were the jack of all meles and we were getting better. It WAS becoming the logical choice to play a monk.



    Meles were in danger of becoming a 1 class sorte.



    So, the blatant 'anal intruder with vibrating fist extension' treatment that we have all been getting, vs the nice perks other classes have been seeing have been a base effort to get people to quit the monk class. Balls to bones, that is it.



    Dosnt excuse the treatment, or the virtual abandonment of feedback from the powers that be, but it at least may put a method to the seeming madness.


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  2. #2
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    Default The monk image.



    I tend to agree. I think it is intended to act as a punitive reduction on the number of monks in the game. The language and way in which the nerf was implimented has been extremely hostile and agressive. They want less monks in the game.



    I'm not entirely sure why though. There was never any shortage of people playing warriors. And druids, the most popular class in EQ, got buffed in PoP. It could be that they, correctly, read the class jealousy towards monks, and decided making the playerbase happier was worth making monks unhappy.




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  3. #3
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    Default Re: The monk image.

    This is a stretch and MUST be frustration speaking.



    You don't actually believe this do you? heh






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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    Question: What was the most popular class in Everquest just prior to the release of Kunark?



    Answer: Ranger



    Is it a coincidence that Kunark nerfed the defensive abilities of the Ranger class into oblivion? I don't think so - and I don't think it's a coincidence that this nerf coincides with the peak of popularity of the monk class, either.



    To be completely truthful with you, I view this as a small "silver lining" to the nerf. I didn't want to play a highly popular class - rather, I wanted a minimalist class that was fun and challenging. The monk class became a hobby for people who wanted a l33t tw1nk. If those folks no longer find the class interesting, it's no skin off my back. Mind you, monks still need to be fixed - but it won't go back to the way it was, and that's not entirely a bad thing. I just hope it doesn't take them as long to fix monks as it did rangers.


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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    I agree with you Blazyn <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> . I just think there's room for both. Make monks a viable class that's wanted in groups without making them the class of choice for people to twink.






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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    I agree with this.



    Verant said and that on many occasions that they had an idea on the "amount" of certain classes that should be in the game.



    Why you think clerics are still one of the most useful class outy there? Cause not enough people play them for verants taste. If everyone would create clerics tommorow, it wouldnt take long for verant to nerf them into oblivion.



    Why you think sk`s got nice stuff in pop while warriors didnt get much improvement? Far less sk's than warriors playing my friend.



    Problem is this, classes are played by the taste of people, to be powerful or to be useful. Clerics are scarcely played because they are... How can I put delicately... Freaking boring and many do play them cause they know they are necessary. (well I dont think so, but thats me).



    So, since so many morons started Iskar monk twinkz in order to b3 r33t, it grew to proportion where idiots like Furor get a twist in their panties and Verant nerfed the monks considering too many people played them.



    I still see many monks lfg everyday, but that number seems to be going down everyday... That itself is a clue of things to come.


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sla ide>Slaide</A> at: 11/25/02 11:58:27 am

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    It's much more likely that they viewed the population of monks as a symptom of an inherant balance issue. I mean, your a developer, trying to do his/her job the best they can and you look at your reports over the last couple months and notice "Wow, there are 50 bazillion monks in the game. Why are so many people playing monks?". That's much more likely a scenerio than "Hey! We've past our monk quota, lets nerf the crap out of the class to encourage them to go play something else!".



    Your going to try and do what you believe is best for the game <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> Not carry out some malicious attack on a class with the intent of pissing off so many of your customers. They have already stated that the nerf didn't have the effect they wanted and I *hope* this has encouraged them to sit back and take a look at the class as a whole....



    which... of course... is what they should have done from the beginning <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> .



    S.T.






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  8. #8
    Apostle Master Faned's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    "Why are so many people playing monks?"



    One answer, which can't be "fixed" without utterly destroying the class.



    Feign death.



    So they "fixed" the next best thing. Make the other aspects of the class so bad that they become like the magicians, necromancers and rangers of times past. Make people pick a second warrior over a monk in a group, hell, a second *enchanter* over a monk, and you'll reduce the number of people playing that class and also prevent many new ones from being created.



    As someone who played a magician back in very similar "hard times" for magicians, don't expect this to be fixed anytime soon. The magician class was utterly decimated. It got to the point where seeing a magician was almost an event. And *then* they started fixing magicians.



    When I do "/who monk 50 65 all" and see five people, that's when I'll start expecting improvements to monks. That's what it took for magicians and necros both.



    Rangers never dropped that low, but rangers are notoriously stupid anyway. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p">




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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Answer I am thinking: Population<hr></blockquote>



    You sir are....



    CORRECT !





    Same was the case with necros and rangers.



    The monk now has been added to the "make them an endangered species" list.



    Once the population dies down, VI will figure out how to bring monks back up to speed.



    At current however, I still enjoy my monk and I am not quitting.










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  10. #10
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    Default Whats wrong with monks ?

    Lvl 56 with fungie and T Staff. So I log on to see if I can get a group in KC, no luck so I try to solo. I tag a dog and finaly kill him with less than one bar health left. I go sit on side to heal and a 52 SK comes in and solos a dog, kills him like fast and GETS ANOTHER ONE proceeds to solo that one too and, yeah you guessed it, GETS ANOTHER and kills it too. Meanwhile I'm sitting healing while this 52 ( repeat 52 ) SK took 3 dogs. Thats whats wrong with Monks.


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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks ?

    "at 10% per kill, I dont mind soloing"



    Necro in PoV.



    sigh.


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  12. #12

    Default whats wrong w/ monks

    actually everyone started playing monks certainly because yes they are really easy to but also because watchiong some one who plays them well makes it look easy and graceful and alot of fun .... so we shot ourselves in the foot, ive played mine for 2-1/2 years, just about everyone i know after grouping w/ me for a time went out and started a monk .... most of them stopped playing them not long after or play them rarely since


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  13. #13
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    Default Re: whats wrong w/ monks

    There have always been at every point in EQs history more Warriors than Monks.... AT no point has there ever been more Monks than Warriors.



    Furthermore, there were pre-nerf getting close to twice as many Warriors as Monks. The only class more numerous than the Warrio is the Druid.



    The Monk was about midway down the class population ladder, toward the lower part if anything.



    The idea that there was a plague of Monks is a myth based upon wildly inaccurate impressions.... Monks are probably the most visible class in game, in that they draw the eye due to being leather wearing lizard or human with a stick, which is a rarity, and hence is noticed.


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    </div></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=car nagh>Carnagh</A> at: 11/26/02 11:53:15 pm

  14. #14
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    Default Re: whats wrong w/ monks

    What a load of horse shit.



    I am sorry but this has to be the most pathetic crap i ever heard in my life.



    Every single guild I ever been in, every single raid i have ever been on, monks have been outnumbered by Wizards and Rogues and evenly matched by rangers.



    Where the hell did you get this idea that monks were in the bazillions.



    The only classes that we out number are the classes that suck or are new, like Paladins, ShadowKnights and Beastlords.



    Hell half the time there are an equal number of enchanters at half the raids I been on.



    Hell monks are only of the only classes you could do a /w Monk 60 all on and get back 20 or less results.



    Now all of a sudden there were millions of us? well I would love to know where they were all hiding?



    Or are you in your infinite stupidity comparing this to pre Kunark when there were like 6,000 people playing compared to the 400,000 active accounts now?


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  15. #15
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    Default Re: whats wrong w/ monks

    Ah, LoK



    Once more you grace us with you oh so rapier wit and charm, always able to see the big picture with the eyes of a myopic gnat.



    Wasnt talking endgame, or even upper teir.



    Was speaking about the monk population as whole, where there were monk twinks out there than vulgarities in your average post. Even if there monks were running at 10% of the population, if VI determined in their oh so abstract wisdom monks should be running 5% thats double the population they wanted. Monks were the master of mele, unfettered by terrain or mobs, and had toe to toe solo ability. Now we dont know what we are but that prior draw brought a lot of players to the monk class as secondary charicters.



    Trying to understand the reasons why dosnt mean justification of them.


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  16. #16
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    Default Re: whats wrong w/ monks

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    Wasnt talking endgame, or even upper teir.



    Was speaking about the monk population as whole

    <hr></blockquote>



    So am I.. you're wrong. There have always been more Warriors and Druids at every level of the game than any other class.



    Of course if you run around the LoIO (back in the day) you'll think omg, so many Monks!... there's more Monks here than Druids or Warriors (and that would only have been true in key Kunark zones when the Monk population was at it's highest post Kunark expansion. Prior to Luclin is the zones with the densist low level Monk population Monks were still outnumbered by Warriors and Druids.)... totally forgetting all the Druids and Warriors running around the Karanas, or Rathe, or anywhere on Faydwer at low levels vastly outnumbering Monks.



    You're impression of the population is based upon an ill considered field of view.




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    </div></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=car nagh>Carnagh</A> at: 11/27/02 7:28:53 am

  17. #17
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    Default Re: whats wrong w/ monks

    I'll say it again slowly this time:



    "Even if there monks were running at 10% of the population, if VI determined in their oh so abstract wisdom monks should be running 5% thats double the population they wanted. "



    But feel free to disagree


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  18. #18
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    Default Re: whats wrong w/ monks

    You know how many monks I *saw* by the time I had my first level 35+ character?



    Two. And I "grew up" around Qeynos.



    Of course I did play ranger and then magician, so I wasn't a dungeon dweller. Still, the population of monks was positively miniscule.



    When I started Faned it was because my guild of 75+ people had zero monks. We *really* needed a monk (I had no clue I would enjoy monk as much as I ended up enjoying it).



    That guild grew to over 300 people (not characters), and you know how many monks we had at highest count before I left it? Maybe ten. Several of those were twinks, started because they saw the power that I brought to the guild (and it definitely *wasn't* my tanking ability), that never ended up "growing up" because after they played and tried they realized it wasn't as easy as I made it look.



    From the beginning where I never saw monks, to needing to create a monk for a fairly large guild because there weren't any to be found, to that guild growing to be enormous and still only having a half dozen "real" monks, the monk population grew tremendously.



    Monks were (I hesitate to say "are") a popular twink class. Once twinked, people (like me) realized how fun they were to play. The ability to explore better than even rogues, the ability to go afk at a second's notice and without fear, the ability to end a fight that you can tell is going bad in spite of there being 50 mobs between you and the zoneout, all combined to make monks a blast to play.



    And not a bit of it had to do with their tanking ability, other than they tanked well enough to actually be able to fight. Every other melee except rogues could solo just as well if they wanted to (maybe not as fast, but just as well), but none of them could deal with things going bad as well as monks.



    And while feign death isn't overpowered in the sense that it "breaks" the game, it is over-fun-powered. So what do you do if you're Sony? You completely screw over the class, a really thorough reaming, make it *hurt*, and try to suck some of the fun out of the class so that people will make other classes.



    You don't think they'd do that? Look at the other side of the coin and all that they've given to clerics recently.






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  19. #19
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    Default Re: whats wrong w/ monks

    I think your missing the point. The assertion here is that there were to many monks so they nerfed us to more evenly distribute the class mix.



    And yes.. that assertion is a load of horse shit <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">



    At best they viewed the monk population as a symptom of some inbalance in the class that was encouraging everyone to start one.



    Get the the real world people heh.






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  20. #20
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    Default Re: whats wrong w/ monks

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>At best they viewed the monk population as a symptom of some inbalance in the class that was encouraging everyone to start one.<hr></blockquote>



    Perhaps read what I just posted.



    Were clerics so horribly underpowered that they need 14/18 proc-machines-of-doom hammers that they didn't even have to buy?



    No. They simply weren't very *fun* to play. Clerics have been anywhere from pleasantly overpowered to horribly overpowered since the game started.



    Welcome to the real world, where Sony actually will screw (not fix) a class to make it less appealing, and will shower loving on (not fix) a class to make it more appealing, based on how they want their game to be played.




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  21. #21
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    Default Re: whats wrong w/ monks

    I think you hit upon the real reason. This is the pattern as I seen it. As I had alts into their 30s and 40s when kunark came out. And they slowly working their way up. Granted none are at end game raid stage, but I still see whats happening to all the classes maybe more so than most cause I not just concerned about my one main class.



    Almost everyone I know has a monk twink. More so than any other class. Me too and she gets played whenever I can't get a group with my main.



    And look at the track record.



    The population for most melee classes were not very good as casters ruled the world pre-kunark. But even then nothing came close to a 50 level monk for pure mayhem damage output. I know that once folks reached upper 40s and the magic five oh. That they marveled at what a high level monk could do with just their fist compared to the trully uber warrior duel wielding yaks. There were very little rogues playing and lots of warriors.



    With kunark melee classes as a whole get buffed up big time. So rogues get buffed up and pass monks in dps (monks where tops in pre kunark days). Warriors get some things but get over looked for the most part. But monks really didn't get squat compared to the other melee classes. Yup, you got FB and T-staff and fungis. But compared to other melee classes monks didn't get squat. Other classes got class armor upgrades to their planar armors, but monks where still stuck with shiver crap. But the number of monks at this stage was few and far between. The result was everyone and their granny make rogue twinks. And hybreds continue to be a joke. How many times have you seen ranja down this is a hot key? Or who wants a pally for anything?



    Then velious comes out, and some nice things for all. And monks catch up with the other melees in gear. But monk damage output lead over other melees except rogues (cause rogues jump over monks for dps in kunark) erodes to almost nothing. Not because the damage tables changed from kunark, but because of the easily had weapon upgrades in velious. And hybred finally get some respect but not much <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> .



    Then comes SoL and monks are the twink of choice. Hybreds get a bigger boost here. But monks are king of dps from any angle only passed by rogues when backstabbing. So there is a big influx of monk twinks. With the easy availablity of decent armor and weapons for monks became the choice for melee classes to make a twink with. And warriors are moaning the day they spent all their time playing warriors instead of dropping them along time ago in favor of monks or rogues or sks or pallies.



    Now its PoP's turn. And monks get hammerred. Hybreds get another boost, casters get a big boost. Most melees but monks seems to have gotten something so far. Only leaving monk out cause their something is nodrop not like the others.



    Yup sounds like monks take it up the you know where cause there just to many of you alls running around post 50.



    I know lots say that there more druids/necros than any class. And it probably true levels 1 to 65. But how many are actively playing post 50 or post 60 compared to monks or rogues? Just a little food for thought. I know lots that diss their 60 level druid, necro, chanter, cleric infavor of leveling and getting a 60+ level monk or rogue.


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  22. #22
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    Default Re: whats wrong w/ monks

    This is all a load of Horse Shit, and until we get a real answer from VI and a dialog going don't waste your breath


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  23. #23
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    Default Re: whats wrong w/ monks

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>until we get a real answer from VI<hr></blockquote>



    Yeah, they are sooooo understaffed that they haven't managed to get to that yet.



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  24. #24
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    Default Re: whats wrong w/ monks

    No bridge for me.



    I prefer to watch a prior poster turn blue as he holds his breath awaiting said dialogue.



    Rofl.



    So when did people become such twit for brain assholes when making a suggestion anyway? Oh yeah. Right about the time of the big twink influx. Hmmm.


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  25. #25
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    I'm curious.



    How many of you folks who are calling this allegation horseshit were around pre-Kunark?



    You folks don't seem to remember back before Verant even had their own message board (forget about when they killed it). You don't seem to remember when VI reps used to post on Stratics and EQVault as the main communication mechanisms with the user base. And you don't seem to remember back when Verant used to publish stats on how many people played each class - and their internal goals for each class. And you also don't seem to remember that both the enhancements to the rogue and warrior class, along with the nerfs to necros, druids and rangers were driven based on wide population fluctuations in those classes. I don't think some of you have ever even heard of the big druid kiting nerf, lol.



    Verant has, does, and will again enhance or nerf classes based on playing statistics. I'm not saying that there are more monks that class xyz. Rather, we've exceeded some internal target for number of active players. No one would have cared about a few powerful monks. But, someone does indeed care the fact that there are more than they expected.


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  26. #26
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    I am not calling the allegation baseless, but rather it is like a bunch of reporters just making up shit to fill in time until the government gives up the real story.



    There are a ton of different threads on different reasons why monks got nerfed. All of them are just total speculation.



    Only what VI has said so far has any bearing on the real reason for the nerf, and their argument is friggin weak even there, but what I am saying is don't go off just making shit up to try to argue about now.




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  27. #27
    Apostle Master Faned's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    No need to make it up. It's simple observation at work.



    If you're a monk twink created within the past year you probably think there's *always* been this many monks and therefore don't understand what has been posted in this thread.



    Even when Faned was created and leveling up, there were "more" monks, but I could count the number of iksar monks higher level than me on the server on one hand.



    Can you count the number of 50+ iksar monks on your server on one hand? Both hands? Both hands and both feet? Borrowing someone else's hands and feet?



    Simple observation.




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  28. #28
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    I've been around since long before Kunark thank you very much <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">



    I still think the idea that Verant has nerfed monks with the express intent of reducing the number of people playing them is simply ridiculous and paranoid.



    It's much more reasonable to assume that the monk population was a red flag to them that something was out of whack. It's entirely possible that they weren't even sure what was out of whack, this is evidenced by the fact that they did a horrible job trying to correct this percieved imbalance and have admitted as much. The reduction in monks would be a natural side effect of any class imbalance correction since it was the imbalance that drew many people to the class in the first place.



    And given all the recent changes to the game, you can't honestly sit there and tell me that they feel in any way bound by statements they made pre-kunark on a message board that doesn't exist anymore <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">



    S.T.


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  29. #29
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    Its still horse shit.



    There are not that many monks in the end game, considering how they just made an entire fucking expansion geared towards the end game because that is where the largest majority of the player base is it would seem fucking obvious to all but the most dense that this is where they would be concentrating their thoughts concerning the number of a class in existence. Who cares if there are a large majority of level 35 monks in a player base that is a tiny fraction of the whole, when in the larger marjority there is but a tiny fraction of monks.



    You admit their isn't a high number of monks in the endgame but then continue to carry on like you havn't just spewed forth a plethora of garbage.


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  30. #30
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Who cares if there are a large majority of level 35 monks in a player base that is a tiny fraction of the whole, when in the larger marjority there is but a tiny fraction of monks.<hr></blockquote>



    You almost see... though I realize that you don't have the intelligence to understand what you just said. Sony, however, does.








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  31. #31
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    LoK, you are either just plain wrong, or else your server is completely different from mine. End game monks a rarity? Several times I read on the top Fennin guildboard about how they had so damn many monks they didnt really want anymore, had multiple pairs of AoW pants rotting in the bank waiting to be sold off. Prior to the nerf? there were too many people to list who all 60 monk at any point in the day, whereas during really whacked hours I would occasionally see only 18 or 19 warriors. couple times in dreadlands, I would see around 6 or 7 monks lfg, and that was when grouping with 3 monks. Monks were astonishly easy to twink no matter how much money you had, because they still got xp better than any other melee class. and the insane speed a fungi monk could solo to 60 was ridiculous.


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  32. #32
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    Total class population means squat.



    How many warriors in each guild?

    How many clerics?

    How many wizards?

    How many rogues?



    IF they wanted to regulate by numbers, they wouldn't start with monks, believe me.


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=akr a>akra</A> at: 11/28/02 9:56:20 am

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>IF they wanted to regulate by numbers, they wouldn't start with monks, believe me.<hr></blockquote>



    Let me exaggerate it a bit to see if it gets clearer.



    If Sony thinks that monks should make up 4 percent of the player population and druids should make up 40 percent of the player population, monks don't have to outnumber druids before Sony will make adjustments. They just have to make up more than 4 percent of the population.



    Though thanks for the chuckle of listing clerics as an argument. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">






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  34. #34
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    Funny really, we got about 3x as many active warriors in the guild than Monks :) Infact, Warriors are the most played class in our guild, post and pre-nerf.


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  35. #35
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    Mmmmmkay...



    How about this way?



    If Sony thinks that monks should make up 4 percent of the player population and warriors should make up 40 percent of the player population, monks don't have to outnumber warriors before Sony will make adjustments. They just have to make up more than 4 percent of the population.



    Anybody have another class they'd like to mention? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p">




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  36. #36
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    Sony may or may not think that the Sun goes around the earth, we can do no more than speculate about what Sony may or may not think... it's an easy game to play.



    There is as much evidence to suggest that Sony nerfed Monks because of sunspot activity as we do for them nerfing Monks because of their relative population.



    Mmmmmkay...



    How about this way?



    If Sony thinks that monks should be nerfed whenever sunspot activity is high and Warriors should be buffed whenever sunspot activity is low, a lunar eclipse doesnt need to occur before Sony make adjustments. They just have see a lot of sunspot activity.



    ... which is as credible as the statement in the previous post.



    What we can do is dispell myths about class populations when they occur.


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  37. #37
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>There is as much evidence to suggest that Sony nerfed Monks because of sunspot activity as we do for them nerfing Monks because of their relative population.<hr></blockquote>



    This is true. If you ignore all the evidence that some of us old-timers have seen over the past three plus years. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p">



    What myth about class populations are you trying to dispell?



    I saw more monks last night alone than I saw in the entire first year and a half I played Everquest. And I'm seeing some less monks recently than I did a few weeks ago.






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  38. #38
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    Default Re: Whats wrong with monks?

    Another reason you saw alot of monk twinks was people needed new content. Now with POP out people don't have time to play even the most beloved twink unless they multibox.



    If this was a problem of population it was actually a non problem and I can't believe Sony/VI didn't see the "problem" would go away once everyone had a main to get flagged for all the new zones.


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  39. #39
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    Default heh

    Monks are balenced. If you feel like your class needs a helping hand, just ebay some gear from the site owner. That should help.


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  40. #40
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    Default Re: heh

    ^^^

    Can somebody ban this USELESS, MORONIC troll?


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