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Thread: New spells, shifts in power, and why the nerf was unneeded

  1. #1
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    Default New spells, shifts in power, and why the nerf was unneeded

    If you've hunted much in PoP much, you've probably noted a distinct lack of loot and even less melee loot (with the exception of windblade). The low drop rates have made it painfully clear that parchments (and hence, spells) are loot in PoP. In previous expansions, most spells were common, and only a select few were worth more than their weight in plat. Now, though, parchments are the coveted loot, and some spells, if someone gets a duplicate and decides to sell it, sell for quite alot.



    If you've been in a group with a hybrid when a parchment dropped, you've probably noticed that hybrids roll on parchments. They are also extremely happy when they win. And, from what I've seen, they get nice spells that they really like. If the way SK's in my guild have been talking (and people ahve been talking about them) is any indication, hybrids recieve a sizeable boost in power from AA's and spells.



    So do casters.



    What, then, happens with the pure melees? From what I've heard from my rogue friends, their backstab damamge goes up a good amount as they make their way to 65 (and the sneak improvements are really cool). The warriors seem to be recieving a fairly substantial upgrade to their hps (without planar durability, all the warriors in my guild seem to have gained about 1k hps).



    What have monks gotten? A comparitively small hp upgrade, a comparitively small damamge upgrade, and the wonderfully amusing technique of master wu. Oh yeah, we also got mobs who hit so hard that casters say "No, you can't tank because your inability to get and hold agro quickly means that we take a risk by healing initially or slowing before you'd die."



    So now, even if you ignore the actual nerfs we've gotten, PoP is a fairly large gain in power for everybody but monks. PoP is one big stinking monk nerf.



    I can't wait till they do melee balancing again and they realize that monks will have to do 50% more damamge to be back on par and balanced with the other classes...and then, people will complain that things are unbalanced...


    Brother Yoso Limplizard</p>

  2. #2
    Guest

    Default Re: New spells, shifts in power, and why the nerf was unneed



    Actually I don't think it's been all that great for the other pure melee either. Rogues don't get that substantial a DPS increase, it's just theirs is filtered through a multiplicative ability (backstab) rather than our linear improvements to damage. And while warriors may have become tougher their power relative to the knight classes has probably degraded.




    </p>

  3. #3
    Guest

    Default depends

    Depends on who you talk to. Some casters have gained while others really haven't improved all that much. Enchanters really didn't gain all that much. Alot of new spells that buff other people ect...and make their job a little easier. Hard to compare clerics/enchanters/shaman to offensive classes. It would be better to look at the improvements that offensive class have received then to make statements that are half truths.



    SK have gained alot in group usefulness. That new life tap/mana drain groups spell owns. Also they get a ton of other spells that add to there abilities. Paladins really didn't gain all that much. They are pretty much where they were before PoP outside of some minor spell upgrades, and some fast heals. I have yet to see someone say pick the paladin because he has fast heals. /shrug However I do see people saying pick the sk because of that uber group spell.



    To the poster that said rogues that gain much you really don't know much do ya? Of the top damage dealing classes in the game mages/rogues gained the most. If the rogue has half a brain, and takes advantage of poison making then he can boost his dps by alot. Rogues using poison can hit 170dps with ease sustained now. It all comes down to if they take advantage of it but just because a large portion of the player base is lazy doesn't mean you discount the dps increases that poison making brings to rogues.



    I sorta agreed with the ac nerf that was handed down on monks but after studying and seeing how things are now I think it was unfair. I was in UP the other day using my new lvl 61 air pet. I was soloing faster then the shaman/monk combo next to me. The monk was lvl 63 and had pretty good gear epic, kael armor ect...He was taking massive damage even with the mobs being slowed. While my pet was tanking better then the monk and my mobs were unslowed. When pets are out tanking and out damaging classes that are suppose to be offensive something is wrong. I joined there group, to give them a hand, and after about 15 more mins the monk left do to frustration, and the shaman told me he was glad because it was easier to heal my pet then the monk. His words to me were "@#%$ that ac nerf was pretty bad. Me and that guy use to own this. Now he is a mana drain."



    I personally feel that monks should offer more to a group offensively and defensively then a pet. When pulling isn't a issue (which it isn't in 95% of experience groups) then monks should be viable offensive/defensive weapons. We had a monk that was well equiped in Valor today, and our paladin went down. Monk jumped in to tank the mob and after about 10secs was told by our cleric to FD and let pet tank because it was easier for the cleric to heal the pet that was unbuffed then it was to heal the buffed monk virtue/focus ect..



    Nerfing Pets isn't what is needed because frankly they still are not good enough. However monks really need something to make them viable again outside of FD and splitting mobs. Monks should offer more defense then my lvl 61 air pet (which isn't even our defensive pet). The nerf was to harsh, and if it remains then offensive upgrades needs to come the monks way. If 80% of monks in the game are weaker then pets why even have them in a group?



    Wezloc




    </p>

  4. #4
    Guest

    Default Re: depends

    No shiat.



    Monks outdamaged and outtanked by rogues.

    And if it keeps up, will be outdamaged and outtanked by everyone.



    Need I say more.


    </p>

  5. #5
    Ascendant Stone Fist
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    1,501

    Default Re: depends

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Nerfing Pets isn't what is needed because frankly they still are not good enough. However monks really need something to make them viable again outside of FD and splitting mobs. Monks should offer more defense then my lvl 61 air pet (which isn't even our defensive pet). The nerf was to harsh, and if it remains then offensive upgrades needs to come the monks way. If 80% of monks in the game are weaker then pets why even have them in a group?<hr></blockquote>





    Yup.




    </p>

  6. #6
    Guest

    Default Re: depends



    I must admit I had heard rogue poisons were too expensive to be used very frequently, so I discounted them. But yeah, I guess they have the option of "boosting" their DPS and we don't.



    As for enchanters check out the post on FOH boards at the moment;



    www.fohguild.org/forums/s...eadid=3751



    Where an enchanter is describing how he's been generating 500DPS sustained, with reasonable safety, using the new charm and mez spells (for breaks). Sure, not all chanters have the gear and skill to do this, and it is risky, But they have the option of making XP this way.




    </p>

  7. #7
    Guest

    Default Re: depends



    For casters it is all about mana regen, mana regen, mana regen, the problem is the med rate for casters did not go up. Sure the new spells are nice, but for the most part the new damage spell did not have there dam/mana ratio improved by much.



    For melee it is all about DPS, DPS,DPS, and all melee have new damage tables, in many ways getting to lvl 65 is more important to melee then it is for casters. All I know a lvl 65 rogue or monk does insane damage in a grp these days.


    </p>

  8. #8
    Guest

    Default no @#%$

    mage pets can easily outtank us now. EASILY. whatever though after i spent years of my life playing this one character, its been enough. after getting my ass handed to me over and over, ive decided to shop around for new games. i have a few in the mail already. eq has been a fun game while it lasted, who knows maybe i will resubscribe if i dont have that much fun playing other games. but right now its basically effort<reward. ill shut up now.


    </p>

  9. #9
    Guest

    Default lol

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>For casters it is all about mana regen, mana regen, mana regen, the problem is the med rate for casters did not go up. Sure the new spells are nice, but for the most part the new damage spell did not have there dam/mana ratio improved by much.<hr></blockquote>



    All I have to say to this is <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol">



    Do you realize that just about every class got self mana regen improvements. Also multiple types of mana regen spells stack now. Also do you realize that the ratio on nukes are the highest they have ever been? Mages went from 3.0 ratio being there best nuke to a 4.0 ratio 2k nuke. Also the lvl 63 nuke is near 3.9 and the lvl 65 spell is near 4.0. Ratios are the highest they have ever been just like mana regen is one of the biggest non-issues now. With C4, new bard song, new beastlord mana regen spell, mod rod 2.........NO CASTER should ever have mana regen problems. Also when you factor in that focus items are pushing these nukes to 5.1 and above in ratio, casters are not hurting at all.



    There seems to be a need by some melee to deny what is right in front of them. Those with the ability to cast spells are owning right now. Monks do not have spells and with the nerf, are no better then a sk pulling 90% of the content in EQ. In a group most of the time pulling is a non-issue, and any melee class is able to pull it off with proper crowd control. Also most people in this day in age are against FD pulling because it slows experience down.



    In terms of offensive classes I would say that monks offer next to last to a experience group. SK/Paladin have key abilities and spells now that groups want. I have seen warriors in the group request a paladin over a monk because of something as simple as brells and stuns. I have seen casters beg that we pick the sk over the monk because of that new uber group mana/hp tap they have. Also they hold aggro like no one else.



    There is little reason I would pick a monk over another class if I had the options to pick someone else. The small difference in damage that a non-tanking knight will do with windblade compared to a monk is made up by the fact they offer more group enhancement. The days that people think monks are the uber damage dealers of Norrath is over. When people say damage now they think of rogue/wizard/mage. I get asked for groups even when I am not LFG when there are other offensive melee LFG. Pets are out damaging 85% of all the monks in the game because for most, the best weapon they can get is t-staff which is 3 years old, I don't how you can deny there is a problem. There is a major problem that needs to be fixed for monks. Denying there is a problem is only gonna hurt your class in the long run.



    Wezloc

    65 Arch Convoker


    </p>

  10. #10
    Guest

    Default Re: lol

    I normally don't bump posts just for the sake of bumping, but this is one of the better threads I have read on this forum and I think it deserves to stay near the top and get read.




    Argfeld

    Level 59 Monk

    Order of the Scattered Winds

    Bertoxxulous



    </p>

  11. #11
    Guest

    Default Re: lol

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Monk jumped in to tank the mob and after about 10secs was told by our cleric to FD and let pet tank because it was easier for the cleric to heal the pet that was unbuffed then it was to heal the buffed monk virtue/focus ect..<hr></blockquote>



    Ok I will have to let pride win out on this one. Yeah I see what you are saying and agree with much of it. I know this will hurt the argument a bit but I will say it anyway.



    The Monk in PoV here just plain sucked. Stone stance alone lasts 8 - 10 seconds, don't remember which. You pull, you pop stone stance, then you tank. By the time stone stance fades, if your slower hasn't slowed it, your slower sucks ass get a new one. If your monk still can't tank a slowed mob better than a mage pet, get rid of that damn monk, he should have never gotten flagged in the first place. Most likely, the monk got in a pick up rotation for an uber guild flagging their people and rotating other nonguildies in and out. Next time get a monk with more hps /grin.





    I'll be damned if I ever admit a mage pet tanks better than me.

    Last time a mage said that, I owned his pet and he started nuking me cause he didn't want to lose the bet.





    Sorry couldn't let monk pride let that one go.





    I agree over all tho. That nerf hit us all very hard.








    Rhizzen Khillahpriest <Darkblood>

    54 Necromancer of Innoruuk

    Sol Ro





    Sensai Ssoulz Jah <Darkblood>

    60 Grandmaster of Cazic Thule

    Sol Ro



    <div style="text-align:center">

    Ssoulz Stuffz



    </div></p>

  12. #12
    Guest

    Default Re: lol

    I don't know how much my DPS went up going from 60 to 65 but max hit with a 15 damage weapon went from 99 to 104 and kick went from 169 to 175. Minor upgrades but I guess every little bit helps.



    I have done a lot of tanking in PoV. The problem is getting a bunch of bad roll max hits and tear us monkies up. And we get those bad rolls a lot! The best was tanking inner cave. I was playing at my friends house who was the cleric. We were sitting right next to each other and if I wasn't I would have died many times. There were so many times I would see where the CH was at so I knew if I had to mend or stonestance. It was fun though and she would have about the same mana after the fight as before so it was non stop pulling.


    <address><a
    href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=12519"><font
    size="2">Talloss</font></a><font size="2"> 65 Iksar Transcendent</font></address>
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  13. #13
    Guest

    Default Re: Pets tanking

    Rhizzen, interesting topic there. We have a somewhat similiar topic on the Paladin boards. General consensus is that a paladin fighting a pet is going to get creamed. Many also argue that a pet should out tank paladins.



    You can read the thread here:

    pub148.ezboard.com/fpaladinsofnorrathfrm21.showMessage?topicID=330.to pic


    </p>

  14. #14
    Guest

    Default Deny

    Pets enrage now giving them a healer a 10sec window to heal the pet. Also pets have more hps then the average monk and i know that the new air pet mitigates damage very well. He also cast a 5sec stun which helps to mitigate damage and allow the healer for more time to heal. Unless the monk is very uber I would take a mage pet over a monk tanking just about anywhere. You can deny the truth all you want but it doesn't get your class balanced.



    Wezloc

    65 Arch Convoker




    </p>

  15. #15
    Guest

    Default Re: Deny

    Thanks Wezloc, it's appreciated.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    I'll be damned if I ever admit a mage pet tanks better than me.

    Last time a mage said that, I owned his pet and he started nuking me cause he didn't want to lose the bet.

    <hr></blockquote>



    And I garentee that wasnt one of the new post 60 pets, as there is a huge jump in power over their previous pets.


    <hr />
    <div>
    -- Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist, Iksar Monk of Xev.
    </div>
    <div>
    -- Kanrax, Iksar Beastlord of Xev.
    </div>
    <div>
    Dubious member of Hawkestone.
    </div>


    <div>

    "I stare, it stares back.

    I long to know its feelings.

    It demurs. Lunch, then."


    </div></p>

  16. #16
    Guest

    Default Re: Lazy Exp

    Well I was in PoN the other night pulling for a group. Basically my role was to pull to group FD and then let the pets take over. We had 2 mages and a necro, shaman till he went LD and a druid. Later on we had a cleric. One of the mages asked me if I could get up and fight some instead of just playing dead or standing around and watching. As son as I engaged MOB I got agro and several max hits and hit FD again.



    I am very far from Uber but this is the role that is now suitable in PoP for me as a puller for pet heavy groups. I guess it is all exp but it feels very unrewarding not being able to do what I am supposedly designed for and that is DPS.



    If we had a tank in the group I know it would possibly have been different but as it stands an avg equiped monk hasn't a chance to melee a PoP MOB and survive.










    Kodomo Sunsoar

    Level 58 Monk

    Monk Officer
    Heroes Unlimited




    Kodomo's profile </p>

  17. #17
    Ascendant Stone Fist
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    1,962

    Default ROFL at Ssoulz

    Hey Ssoulz, you ever try taking on pets before the PvP nerf? Tell you what, go to an Arena, have a Chanter charm you (which gives you the PvP pet restrictions) and take on a pet from a caster your level (Mage/Necro/BL). I guarantee the Mage and BL pet will eat your lunch, and likely the Necro pet as well. Might as well brag that you were able to kill a Shaman-slowed Ranger your level, it's about the same comparison.



    When you're fighting MOB's, the pets don't have the same PvP nerf. I know that at my level I can outtank (DPS taken-wise) anyones pet at my level, however I can see where the much higher HP of say an Earth pet could make it a better choice for a CH rotation. It's been a long time since I was in a pet-heavy group, but I remember Guk with 3 Necros, 1 Mage, and a Pallie or Ranger (don't remember) puller, and we absolutely destroyed. A Monk would have slowed us down. Pets have generally much lower AC and take more of a beating, but the extra HP can make CH more effective. When BL's could CH their pets, at times when I was duoing a BL/Monk I would FD it onto the pet so I could bind while the pet tanked a few rounds or more.



    As far as non-tanking ability for Monks, it would really depend on your level/MOB levels. I know at 54 with a 52 Shammie healer/slower I'm still duoing up to L54 PoP MOB's that hit for 280+. I wouldn't call myself Uber by a long shot, this is at 1120'ish AC and 1200'ish ATK, running around at 2440'ish HP. But if you have a slower in the group a decently equipped Monk can still tank slowed stuff that hits for under 300, which is a lot of the Tier 1 PoP MOB's. With a Cleric and a real tank I nearly always FD onto the tank unless I just feel like using Mend up. But when I am grouped with a Tank and Cleric doing the MOB's the Shammy and I duo, and the tank with Cleric buffs is taking more of a beating then I normally do without Cleric buffs it tells me that Monk tanking isn't necessarily dead, at least not sub-L60. I'm sure doing the 400+ hitting MOB's I might feel differently, but in all honesty, while I do notice a difference in damage taken, for the stuff that I should be able to solo/duo, I'm still able to tank.


    </p>

  18. #18
    Guest

    Default Re: ROFL at Ssoulz



    Yes a casters should never have mana problems, as long as they group with a enchanter, bard, beastlord, shadow knight, druid, then the wiz and mag or necro can have fun.



    Tell me how often does a caster grp get all the mana regen buff outside of a raid.


    </p>

  19. #19
    Guest

    Default Re: ROFL at Ssoulz

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    Tell me how often does a caster grp get all the mana regen buff outside of a raid.

    <hr></blockquote>



    You seem to be under the impression that melees aren't effected by mana-regen.



    A melees can fight for as long as their healers have mana, then they either stop or start to die... it's a rather basic fundamental of EQ that anybody should have grapsed firmly by day 3.



    Do unless you're on day 2, come back when you actually have a point to make.



    My Beastlord need only group with (or be buffed by) and Enchanter to fight continuously with no stopping at all... a pet class doesn't need to tip the scales very far to reach a point of continuous operation.


    <hr />
    <div>
    -- Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist, Iksar Monk of Xev.
    </div>
    <div>
    -- Kanrax, Iksar Beastlord of Xev.
    </div>
    <div>
    Dubious member of Hawkestone.
    </div>


    <div>

    "I stare, it stares back.

    I long to know its feelings.

    It demurs. Lunch, then."


    </div></p>

  20. #20
    Guest

    Default Re: ROFL at Ssoulz



    Carnagh since when is a beast lord a caster and when was the last time you seem 6 clerics grp together, so why would healing have anything to do with caster DPS.



    People like to talk about the insane damage that caster can do, the trouble is for casters to have a high DPS, it is all about mana regen. The med rate did not go up with pop, the only increase is from buffs from 5 different classes, and most of these buffs are of short duration.



    Only a support class like a cleric or ench can say, how good a caster grp is vs a melee grp, because they are the only ones that can be in both types.



    I find 90 percent of all wizards to fast to cast evac and afraid to cast root and snare to help a grp. At least a melee has to stand next to the mob and press attack, I see to many casters just sit in a corner and do nothing. I know they are not nuking because I have effects on and watching. Sure ever once in a while I find a wizard that does a good job, but it is much easier for them to sit and watch and evac if something happens then use there brains and root.



    Yes a caster grp can rule, I been in 2 since pop came out, all my other great grps were melee grps.


    </p>

  21. #21
    Guest

    Default Re: ROFL at Ssoulz

    The best, most efficient group would likely be five BST's, and an enchanter...wouldn't you think?


    </p>

  22. #22
    Guest

    Default Re: ROFL at Ssoulz

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    Carnagh since when is a beast lord a caster

    <hr></blockquote>



    Go play a beastlord for a bit. They are most definately more properly regarded a caster than a melee hybrid in the same way that Bards are, reason being that their primary point of balance is against Mages and Necros. Naturally enough as they are a pet focused class.



    Like other casters, and most definately like Mages and Necros with sufficient mana-regen they can continue non-stop.... as Whorl points out 1 enchanter can keep 5 BST going quite happily.



    This is not true opf any other Hyrbid or any of the pure melees.



    The other trait Beastlords share with Bards and Casters is significant utility and impact both solo and in a group.



    Now I've no particular beef with Beastlord... several classes are in the same bracket... I merely use Beastlords as an example as I'm more familiar with the class. The issue is that SOE forgot at some point why it had to rebalance the melee classes when the game was caster dominated, and has merely returned the game to it's former state.



    Typically when I play my Beastlord it'll be with a Mage friend and a Bard friend (could be an Enchanter), and we'll hunt somewhere like Chardok... we don't want a melee to join. The reason we don't want a melee to join is that they are high maintainance. If a melee joins we'll immediately require a healer also, simply to maintain them... they're way more expensive than a pet. If we were going to invite another class we'd be far better off inviting another caster for damage.... I can pull a mob off a caster with slow as easily as any tank, and survive well enough until I transfer aggro back to my pet, and then heal myself up.... and I can heal my pet as well as a Cleric can heal a tank, and together we do Monk level damage... and I can slow, sow, invis and provide mana/hp regen etc.



    There are many combinations of group (not duos, but full groups), where adding a melee is a severe liability... yes there are many good groups involving melee, but in many cases a melee is expensive.



    I find it hard to concieve of a melee only group that would provide any real credibility.



    So melees are dependent upon casters... caster are free to group or solo, and have no real dependence on melees in many situations... further caster are actually better off without melees in many situations.



    You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see how that's broken.



    Any situation where casters can opperate continually with no downtime is a broken situation as it breaks inter-class relliance.


    <hr />
    <div>
    -- Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist, Iksar Monk of Xev.
    </div>
    <div>
    -- Kanrax, Iksar Beastlord of Xev.
    </div>
    <div>
    Dubious member of Hawkestone.
    </div>


    <div>

    "I stare, it stares back.

    I long to know its feelings.

    It demurs. Lunch, then."


    </div></p>

  23. #23
    Guest

    Default Re: ROFL at Ssoulz



    Well since I been in grps with BL as a MT in pov, and since bl do most of there damage with melee they are melee not casters. Casters want bl in there grps because of your mana buffs, in fact a good casters grp has a shadow knight as a MT and a BL as the puller.


    </p>

  24. #24
    Guest

    Default Re:............

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I find 90 percent of all wizards to fast to cast evac and afraid to cast root and snare to help a grp. At least a melee has to stand next to the mob and press attack, I see to many casters just sit in a corner and do nothing. I know they are not nuking because I have effects on and watching. Sure ever once in a while I find a wizard that does a good job, but it is much easier for them to sit and watch and evac if something happens then use there brains and root.<hr></blockquote>



    You are a idiot. Let me tell you I have seen horrible classes of all types, and most of them have been monks. Just because one person sucks at there class doesn't mean the majority of people do. Saying stuff like that just makes you look like a newb.



    I know my class, and play it well. No I am not sitting off in the corner somewhere to afraid to nuke, and honestly I have never seen this happen. Well maybe when I was still hunting in crush bone but I haven't seen this type of thing at the high lvls. Grow up dude, bring something more to the table then half-baked stereo-types about other people, especially when you play a class most notorious for bad players due to the high twink rate.



    Wezloc






    </p>

  25. #25
    Guest

    Default Re: ROFL at Ssoulz

    Yes retard, beastlords do most of their damage in melee...throught their pet. They are as much of a class as bards are.


    </p>

  26. #26
    Guest

    Default Re: ROFL at Ssoulz

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    Well since I been in grps with BL as a MT in pov, and since bl do most of there damage with melee they are melee not casters.

    <hr></blockquote>



    Tell me the difference between a Beastlord sat behind their pet and a Necro or Mage sat behind their pet.



    Please try and actually think before you post.


    <hr />
    <div>
    -- Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist, Iksar Monk of Xev.
    </div>
    <div>
    -- Kanrax, Iksar Beastlord of Xev.
    </div>
    <div>
    Dubious member of Hawkestone.
    </div>


    <div>

    "I stare, it stares back.

    I long to know its feelings.

    It demurs. Lunch, then."


    </div></p>

  27. #27
    Guest

    Default Re: ROFL at Ssoulz



    I never seen a BL sit behind there pets in a grp, why waste all that melee damage by having the bl being lazy. Now if you are talking about going solo that is different. All the groups I am in have a cleric to heal, enchanter and a MT plus others.



    Make shift grps can be done, but they suck the experience per hour is to low to be worth doing.


    </p>

  28. #28
    Guest

    Default Re: ROFL at Ssoulz



    My first char per kunark was a wiz, so I know what they can and can not do, and I do find most high lvl wizards afraid to help out the group by rooting adds when the cleric or enchanter are having problems. Most wizards these days first instinct is to hit evac instead of using there other spells.


    </p>

  29. #29
    Guest

    Default Re: ROFL at Ssoulz

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    I never seen a BL sit behind there pets in a grp, why waste all that melee damage by having the bl being lazy. Now if you are talking about going solo that is different.

    <hr></blockquote>



    Then you haven't been in a group that comprised of a Beastlord, a Magician and an Enchanter.



    If you actually bothered to read posts you'd realise that one of the cards on the table is the Beastlord being able to partake of caster only groups... in the same way that a Bard can.... Beastlords and Bards can do this, because they are infact far more caster-like than melee-like, in that they can be effective and useful without ever engaging the mob at melee range and risking taking damage.



    In a caster only group a Beastlord (or indeed a Bard), will melee and not melee periodically based on several factors. They will tend to "spend some hp" for damage, then recover.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    All the groups I am in have a cleric to heal, enchanter and a MT plus others.

    <hr></blockquote>



    That's because you're a melee and not a caster. To have you in the group they have to have a healer to maintain you, and quite possibly a plate class to be efficient... that's 3 classes needed including yourself, if they are going to have you [a Monk] in a group.... You've not been in a caster only group as a Monk because funnily enough, you don't have Monks in caster only groups.



    A group focused on pets for melee doesn't need a Cleric, and it doesn't need a MT. And lastly is doesn't need you because the Mage pet will do plenty of damage.



    As I said previously... actually think before you post.


    <hr />
    <div>
    -- Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist, Iksar Monk of Xev.
    </div>
    <div>
    -- Kanrax, Iksar Beastlord of Xev.
    </div>
    <div>
    Dubious member of Hawkestone.
    </div>


    <div>

    "I stare, it stares back.

    I long to know its feelings.

    It demurs. Lunch, then."


    </div></p>

  30. #30
    Guest

    Default Re: depends

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>What have monks gotten?<hr></blockquote>

    simple. the logic is, raw increased level will do more for melee damage than it does for caster damage.



    when a melee levels, they hit more often, and harder.

    they also are more efficient at avoiding melee damage in turn.



    when a caster levels, they will be resisted perhaps a little less, increasing effectiveness. but since you are already rarely resisted to begin with its not nearly as large of an increase in power as raw levels are for a melee class.



    now, i dont know how large of an increase in damage a monk will have at 65 over 60, and im not debating if its large enough, but the point is they do get one using the same exact equipment they were at 60.

    a mage using the same spells they did at 60, will see virtually no increase in damage at 65, if against normal mobs with no special immunities.



    that is why casters definately need new spells, and melees really do not necessarily need new weapons to the same degree. now melees should have some new weapons available to them which are upgrades, but they should not be as easy to obtain as a casters spells as they are not the same thing.


    </p>

  31. #31
    Guest

    Default Re: Deny

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Unless the monk is very uber I would take a mage pet over a monk tanking just about anywhere.<hr></blockquote>

    WHAT?

    wezloc, youre crazy. when i went ld in the deep, a monk in my guild destroyed my water pet in like 15 seconds.

    yes it was the new water pet, fully buffed with new spells (except ds). no the monk did not have a ds.

    sure the air pet would have been harder since he tanks better, probably would have took him only

    40 seconds in that case <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">



    you are getting ridiculous people. a mage pet does not tank better than a decently equiped monk, geez.


    </p>

  32. #32
    Guest

    Default Re: Heavy pet groups

    In a pet heavy group the best combo is 2 magi 2 necro 1 bst and one melee. The melee will bring the mobs while the casters will med. If one of the casters start to be oom the necro will feed. The bst will bring his little slow to help and the little heals also the tag capacity. The heals of the necro will help also to clean the damages taken during pulls. Replace a necro or the bst by a shammy and you still have a great combo.



    The best melee to pull is still the monk. Not because of FD not because of stone dance. Because a monk make 60 lvl's of is career by pulling. So he have a clear sight of what the group can take and at what rythm he can bring mobs.



    The problem is that monks are so proud of their dps, that they will refuse such a group because they will have to FD during the kill time. I understand that but dont tell that heavy pet groups will refuse a monk. THAT'S FALSE !!!! You'd better take a monk over a war or a SK, because the monk have 60 lvl's of pulling, not the SK not the WAR.



    Another point is that heavy pet groups has always been a killing machine before and after pop. What ever the pets you use. It is safe, it is killing fast, and you are not even blocked by mana. And it is also really fun the time it last.



    In such a group, all melee have to avoid damages after the pull. That's where a bard comes in very handy. Because they are not afraid or pissed because they dont melee.



    I made lost of those combo, I know what I talk of. But at the end the melee will get bored and leave. So I am back to pulling. I lose my dps just to bring the mobs. But that's replace by the other casters. And the necro pass his life in feeding me, which is not a problem for a necro.


    Mininiu CrazyMagus

    56 Magician

    Member of Tears of Doom





    Maxiniu 44 Druid

    Hollyniu 44 Monk



    "Magicians are supposed to be...highly respected as a damage-dealer."</p>

  33. #33
    Guest

    Default Re: Heavy pet groups



    You are right carnagh I have not been in a grp with just 3 pet classes, because as a lvl 65 ench I find it easy to get into full grps, where the beastlord melee. All I care about is the make as much experience as fast as I can, which is why I hate gimp groups, and my DC pet outdamage's all other pets.



    A beastlord is a melee, any class that can tank a mob and dish out melee damage is a melee, casters are made of tissue paper and lack the defense skills of a melee.



    I still say it is easier to put together a good melee grp then a good caster grp, because casters need to be grp with the classes that can effect there mana regen. So far my highest dps grp was a sk, bl, ranger, shaman, cleric, ench we were able to kill one mob under the time of one cast of bliss. We had a high dps thanks to all that mana, which allowed all the casters to dd hard, and forget about aggro thanks to the sk. But since pop came out I been only able to put together one grp like this.



    And before you insult people carnagh read what they wrote.


    </p>

  34. #34
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    11

    Default Re: Heavy pet groups

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>a monk in my guild destroyed my water pet in like 15 seconds.<hr></blockquote>



    Water pet has at least 3500 hit points, thats conservative.



    Got a log showing that monk doing 200+ dps? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">


    </p>

  35. #35
    Guest

    Default Noonie get a grip

    Noonie



    Stop being over dramatic. I play the same class as you do and I am very well aware of what a mage pet can do. The normal average equiped monk has under 3k hps. A mage pet especially the new ones will out tank a monk. You know it and I know it. Also we both know that pet vs. player isn't a far comparison. Players only take 66% damage from pets in duels so isn't the same thing. I have attacked player pets while they were LD and the pet still does 66% damage. So if that is your comparison it is pretty weak. Pets have been out tanking monks/rogues for awhile and this isn't a new thing. I know you have some fear that mages will be nerfed but I can't understand why. Pets have been out damaging and out tanking normal equiped melee for a very long time so why all of a sudden do we need to lie about the facts in PoP? Lying only loses you credibility.



    Wezloc


    </p>

  36. #36
    Guest

    Default Re: Noonie get a grip

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    You are right carnagh I have not been in a grp with just 3 pet classes, because as a lvl 65 ench I find it easy to get into full grps, where the beastlord melee. All I care about is the make as much experience as fast as I can, which is why I hate gimp groups, and my DC pet outdamage's all other pets.

    <hr></blockquote>



    So you are in fact arguing about something of which you have precious little or no experience.



    You're going to tell us about how a Beastlord is played when your only experience of one is observing them in a full group.



    And by your own admission, you spend nearly all your time in full melee focused groups.



    This may perhaps explain why you blindly refuse to accept that a Beastlord can play and opperate like any other pet class. And that their melee damage is completely optional, in the same way as another pet classes nuking or dots is optional.



    This isn't a matter of opinion, it's a point of fact that Beastlords are a pet class in the same manner that Mages or Necros are.



    If the Beastlords pet is tanking, and the Beastlord is playing pet cleric, if there's no Tank in the group (because the group doesn't want one), then nobody gives a shit if the Beastlord is doing melee or not.



    And your characterisation of none traditional groups as "gimp groups" simply further reveals your ignorance.



    And I nearly missed this in a previous post of yours...



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    and since bl do most of there damage with melee they are melee not casters

    <hr></blockquote>



    As I said, you know precious little of the matter you're arguing if you think a BST gets most of their damage from their own melee.



    Go away and come back when you know what you're babbling about.... how the fuck did we allow this thread to get derailed by a clueless muppet like you?






    <hr />
    <div>
    -- Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist, Iksar Monk of Xev.
    </div>
    <div>
    -- Kanrax, Iksar Beastlord of Xev.
    </div>
    <div>
    Dubious member of Hawkestone.
    </div>


    <div>

    "I stare, it stares back.

    I long to know its feelings.

    It demurs. Lunch, then."


    </div></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=car nagh>Carnagh</A> at: 12/1/02 4:58:42 am

  37. #37
    Guest

    Default Re: Heavy pet groups

    hogfather:

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Water pet has at least 3500 hit points, thats conservative.



    Got a log showing that monk doing 200+ dps? <hr></blockquote>

    i didnt literally mean 15 seconds <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> he probably was doing around 130 dps on my pets crappy ac, making it closer to 26 seconds, not 15.



    im not complaining about the pet, i think our new pets are excellent. i just cant stand when i hear people, especially mages who should know better saying that any monk with anything which resembles proper equipment for a monk of that level tanks worse than a mage pet. its just blatantly untrue.







    wezloc:

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Stop being over dramatic. I play the same class as you do and I am very well aware of what a mage pet can do. The normal average equiped monk has under 3k hps. A mage pet especially the new ones will out tank a monk. <hr></blockquote>

    theres more to tanking than just hp, there is:

    levels

    defensive skills

    ac

    taunt/aggro holding



    monks GREATLY outclass any mage pet in all those catagories, esspecially defensive skills. the only way mage pets even remotely can be said to be better tanks than monks, is the fact they are so easily replaceable and due to weird coding seem to hold aggro better, if all members of your party are out of melee range. if there is a melee though, then mage pets cant tank at all.



    other than that you would have to be crazy to want a mage pet over a decent monk for a tank. maybe im just spoiled by my guilds monks, i dont know. my guild isnt super uber, we arent even in vt yet, were still doing our keys. we are relatively higher end though (as are MOST 60+ players). i know any guildie monk tanks way better than my pet, and i group with them as tanks often.

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    Also we both know that pet vs. player isn't a far comparison. Players only take 66% damage from pets in duels so isn't the same thing. I have attacked player pets while they were LD and the pet still does 66% damage. <hr></blockquote>

    all im saying is that the pet was shred to bits in seconds by a guildie monk. the pet didnt even hit him.



    the monk was able to kill my pet so fast, because my pet tanks horribly.

    my pet wasnt able to even hit my monk guildie, because the monk has excellent defensive abilities.



    im not complaining about this. thats how it SHOULD be. mages are a class designed to kill mobs, not tank.



    by saying mage pets tank better than monks you are spreading information which is not only incorrect, but which hurts us as a class.

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    Pets have been out tanking monks/rogues for awhile and this isn't a new thing.<hr></blockquote>

    i dont often get to see rogues tank, it may be true that my pets tank better than rogues. but i know for a fact that any decently equiped monk will out tank a pet.

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    I know you have some fear that mages will be nerfed but I can't understand why.<hr></blockquote>

    maybe because mage pets shouldnt be out tanking monks, and if people think they do they will want them (rightly) nerfed?



    monks do less damage than mages, because they are supposed to have a higher potential supportive value. if mage pets are out tanking monks, that would be overpowered.



    but the thing is, they DONT, yet you are saying they do. that hurts our class.

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Pets have been out damaging and out tanking normal equiped melee for a very long time so why all of a sudden do we need to lie about the facts in PoP?<hr></blockquote>

    this is FALSE wezloc. that statement was untrue in luclin, and it still is untrue in pop.



    the epic pet never out damaged offensive melee. it may have outdamaged paladins, sks, and warriors but it rarely if ever outdamaged rogues, monks, rangers, ect.



    the epic pet never out tanked defensive melee. it may outtank a rogue or something but never warriors, sks, pals, ect.



    you seem to make no distinction between the pet types.

    your saying "all mage pets tank better than monks, and do more damage too". that statement is laughably untrue.



    the air pet is the only pet which i even will entertain the notion of tanking anywhere near as well as a monk. lets assume your right, that the air pet does out tank most monks (although i beg to differ). even if thats true, the air pet is very low damage, only about 60 dps. a monk can easily outperform that.



    the water pet tanks like wet tissue. it has low hp, low defensive skills, and no stun. if it tanks, it will only do like 70 dps. a monk will not only outdamage this pet, but tank much better than it too.



    my point is, when you say "Pets out damage and out tanking normal equiped melee" the reader thinks of the high damage of the rogue pet, and the defense skills of the warrior pet. the reality is you cant have both at once, and neither specilization is as good as a melee who specilizes in either field.



    you are spreading false information. i really wish you would stop as you are contributing to the "nerf mages" propaganda whether you know it or not.


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=noo nievioletskies>NoonieVioletskies</A> at: 12/1/02 5:56:03 am

  38. #38
    Guest

    Default Re: New spells, shifts in power, and why the nerf was unneed

    All casters can regen mana pretty well now, or at least get much better use out of the mana they have, and don't forget that they don't just do it with things like spiritual purity and KEI.



    They also have focus effects, like flowing thought, which is all over the place on items, and effects that help them save mana on buffs, or debuffs, or DD's, or DOT's, or heals, or increase their power. Then there are AA. There are even horses to let them med while standing up.



    My shaman is not particularly well equipped, and only level 60. He has a horse, a FT1 earring, a bracer that lets his DOTs last longer, a necklace that lets his buffs last longer, shoulder piece that lets him conserve mana on all spells, a cloak that increases the damage from his (non-JBB) cold nukes 23%(not a big deal for a shaman's slow and lousy nukes, but hey, it helps a little), and a ring that lets him cast buffs faster. He also has AA that help -- MC3 gives 3 mana per tic, SCM saves mana(about 10% to 12% they say), SCR makes buffs last longer, SCRM makes them last longer still(50% -- turns my torpor into a heal for 1800 instead of 1200, which is huge to me). There are also caster AA's that help with nuking and healing. By my logic, AA that increase your healing, nuking, etc., or extend the duration of your buffs, or focus items that do the same, save you mana because you have to use less to accomplish the same thing -- much like a critical hit kills a mob faster than not getting one for a melee.



    So casters have gotten a lot of things that make them more powerful and enhance their mana once they spend it or make them spend less, which is a roundabout way of doing the same thing.



    Most of these AA are common to all casters(dunno about beastlords there). So casters did get a big boost. Some of it is unearned(bumming a KEI off someone), and some you can earn through AA points or earn/get lucky on by looting or buying something good.



    Not sure I would agree on their being that overpowered though. Wizards certainly are. Yet, I rarely see anyone looking for wizards or mages or necros or druids. Enchanters and shamans have seen their value skyrocket with PoP, but they were often quite unnecessary in different points of EQ's evolution, as were casters in general. Wizards and mages were red headed stepchildren not all that long ago. And -- still I don't see them especially sought after in experience groups.



    In PoP, I see plate tanks, but especially warriors among them, and clerics, and shamans being highly sought after. Chanters too. With two healers and strong buffers -- shaman/chanter -- being so often wanted in PoP groups, people tend to want to complement the healers/buffers with someone to do it to -- more melees. Being able to uberbuff one guy isn't really all that much. But being able to uberbuff three or four -- now you're talking about a group significantly increased in power by putting it together well. Chanter, which used to often make the shaman seem redundant, and vice-versa, now actually complements things quite nicely by being able to KEI the cleric/shaman and speed everyone else with haste far superior to a shaman's lousy 50% haste(celerity is the best spell you get at 60 -- swift like the wind is the upgrade post-60, but again, chanter haste betters it).



    So with three buffers now stacking nicely, your requisite plate tank, and two spots open--why waste your ultimate uber buff team on more casters? I'm not saying it's the only way to do things, but people tend to want to fill in those last two spots with melees, too. In my experience, overwhelmingly so. And you can't say it's really a bad idea.



    So casters do need their power increases. To help you and themselves handle the tougher mobs in today's EQ, and, if you have no need for them, as you often don't, to go solo.



    Casters used to be severely neglected; it's not as bad anymore, but there's a combination of logic and perhaps sheer prejudice that keeps them out of more groups than a balanced game would have it. So whether they're helping you, ignoring you, or being ignored by you, the improvements to them are a good thing. They need their chance too, and sometimes it's useful to everybody.



    By the way -- I've been in PoV and PoS a few weeks, and have only seen one necro.














    </p>

  39. #39
    Guest

    Default blah blah blah

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>other than that you would have to be crazy to want a mage pet over a decent monk for a tank. maybe im just spoiled by my guilds monks, i dont know. my guild isnt super uber, we arent even in vt yet, were still doing our keys.<hr></blockquote>



    Noonie



    The problem that you always seem to have when it comes to debating things is you always fall back on the argument that you and your guild represent the average player. You are in a guild that has been killing Arch Lich, HP for a while now. If you have monks that are getting ssra boss mob loot that means they have 3800+ hps. That means they are wielding weapons with 17/20 ratios. What you need to understand is that the "average" monk does not have those things. So a monk in your guild could out tank a mage pet. I don't doubt that and if you would take the time to read my post instead of try half backed attempts to cut it up you would have seen that I said "average equiped".



    Mage pets have always out damaged SK/Paladins/bards/war, and have been out tanking monk/rogues/beastlords for a long time. Now I mean if we are talking about the average player. The average player does not have ssra boss mob loot. Hell two epic pets took down Zel in up. Tell me that a monk could have tanked and held aggro so well.



    Wezloc


    </p>

  40. #40
    Guest

    Default Re: ROFL at Ssoulz

    rogue dps doesnt go up very much, min BS from 120-130... whoopde doo



    (although shroud of stealth is nice)


    -Stabur 63 Assassin

    -Wimzit 56 Conjurer</p>

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