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Thread: some views from shaman crucible

  1. #41
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    It's definitely the death of the competent alt character. If you want to do equally well with two characters in tier-2 and harder tier-1, do all your raiding with both characters. Can't do that? Then put one character aside.


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  2. #42
    Guest

    Default DPS

    Well at 52 I do about 40 DPS with shaman haste, Tae Ew War Maul and silver chitin hand wraps (no epic). Yeah I am really overpowered and need even more nerfing.


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  3. #43
    Monk Disciple
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    Default Re: DPS

    The reason you suddenly see so many melees lfg is simply that while casters can now solo incredibly well (a wiz makes an aa in one to two hours of kiting!), melees can do jack shit solo in PoP.

    This creates "some" imbalance...



    And Callius, you didn't get the point, noone cares about melee damage anymore, if you could parse spell/pet damage every melee would instantly go ballistic.






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  4. #44
    Guest

    Default Re: DPS

    sigh.... unfortunately. Geran is right. The condition of eq right now makes Melees completely uiseless unless of course your doing an ultra uber raid. Then you need at LEAST 2 warrior.



    LOL. With the ridiculous amount of things/spells/ways that allow caster classes to regen mana, you don`t need a melee because casters have to nuke like there is no tommorow before they actually go oom.


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  5. #45
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    Default er

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>And at the hi end monks have far more equipment choices than rangers btw.<hr></blockquote>



    clueless.. all/all gear is the REASON monks were nerfed


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  6. #46
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    Default Re: er

    a monk tanks fine in pop IF you have a slower in the group. doesn't matter how they are geared, they do fine - course BEFORE the spawn is slowed is another matter entirely but...with slow monks bards rogues warriors etc can tank fine in PoP- i know most of the time I am the main tank in my groups - yes i have better armor class and hp than the average though.


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  7. #47
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    Default Re: er

    Lenardo, as a cleric i dont want to kill anything in PoP without a slower. XP mobs with the ability to quad for 500+ is just too much dammage too fast.



    Personaly, I feel that all things considered, monks should tank like the knights. Out of my experince watching your health bars for hours on end, you are tanking at about 90% of the knights level.


    nuf said

    Karthun



    "Dream big and dare to fail!", Norman Vaughan</p>

  8. #48
    Guest

    Default Re: er

    i know i tank better than a knight with simular hp to me, i might have a 100ish ac advantage but not much... the golems in pov would kill him if their was 1 slow resist, while i could manage to live for my first heal every time... but i have SIGNIFICANTLY better gear than him, he just has the same amount of hitpoints i do.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Even without the mitigation nerf monks wouldnt have gotten grps in pov as tanks, i really dont see how the monk nerf with mitigation effected how monks get groups and if the people making grps think it does then probably safer not to group with them.<hr></blockquote>



    i guarentee i would be tanking for these groups if i had not been nerfed, as is i can tank anything slowed in these zones, and am just waiting to level until my shaman gets mini cheal(4 more levels) then ill get him pov flagged and my 2 boxing will commence.



    /shrug i feel like im screwed as compared to before, and feel the change was based on verant cracking under popular opinion, you shouldnt make a change like that BEFORE a major expansion which will change EVERYTHING... it was poor VERY poor timing on their part.


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  9. #49
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    Default Re: er

    I find it slightly ironic that this post was started saying that they couldnt duo tier 2 zones with a shaman and monk because of the monk defense nerfs.



    Uh I play a cleric and 8200 hp(cleric buffed) LR5 CS3 warrior and I have alot of trouble duoing in tier 2 zones. I can do it, but with as tough as the mobs are, its just not worth it.



    PoP tier 2 zones made grouping a preffered method of exping, it had nothing to do with the monk nerf.


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  10. #50
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    Another gem from a shaman in that thread:



    "monks used to be #1, but I would put them dead last now behind rogues - seriously."


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  11. #51
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    What some of you fail to understand about monk mitigation is yes, on average, were monks EVER tanking. No way were we ever there. We are not there for sure now. The point is the option was always there. With a slower and a cleric a monk could due in a pinch, not as nice as a warrior, and with cheal not quite as mana efficient. But the option was always there. Now our only role is a gimped rogue who can FD ?!?!? No one wants that, bleh. The only time I'm ever looked for in a group over other classes is where Feign death is absolutely needed. Otherwise, I just fill a melee slot if a fellow pure melee, ranger, or beastlord is no where to be found. Monks aren't neccesarily looking for the mitigation nerf to be removed, or for dps to be brought up (though I'm sure we'd be happy for either). What we want is a distinguished role, something we bring to the group no one else can quite as easily and effectively. And no being a puller is not a role, not that we are the best at it in all situations anyway.


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  12. #52
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible



    The reason melee are always looking for grps because the support classes like ench are not that common, and most wiz can not quad in pop. The wiz that can quad in HOH has equip the same lvl as the most ubber monks in the game that can still tank fine


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  13. #53
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I can duo him against lightcrawlers in PoD if I do the tanking myself<hr></blockquote>

    No one else found it a tiny bit wrong that a caster has to step in when the tanking gets tougher? Presumably a cleric could do the same thing, since after all, they wear plate, and a druid could not, since they wear leather. *smacks forehead*

    A caster should NEVER take damage better than us, unless perhaps he has someone chain runing him. I'm watching with a kind of sick horror to see how far this leather/plate/chain bullshit will get...it's the worst and most unbalancing thing they have ever done, and quite obviously the root of our problems now.






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  14. #54
    Monk Disciple
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    I noticed that too, but you have to remember that the monk is his twink, and the shaman is undoubtly much better equipped.





    Lenardo, outside PoP, even a chanter can tank slowed mobs.

    In PoP i wouldn't even start a group without a slower...








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  15. #55
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>What we want is a distinguished role, something we bring to the group no one else can quite as easily and effectively. And no being a puller is not a role, not that we are the best at it in all situations anyway. <hr></blockquote>





    Yup, being rogue-lite is not a Good Thing TM.


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  16. #56
    Guest

    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    Monks do not do that much more damage then Warriors and Plates and Chain classes.



    I've seen Monks doing 10% (not 20% as per the the "balance")

    of our Tanking Warriors on Boss fights. And these are warriors choosing HPs over all. If warriors chose +str, +attk,

    and Damage Weapons that gap would close even more.



    Paladin vs Undead > Monk DPS



    Paladin w/ Windblade comes much closer to Monk DPS

    than Monk comes to Paladin tanking ability. ((Especially when you factor in Paladins Stuning the mob until its slowed. This is incredible when done correctly))



    Paladin brings Agro Mastery, Stuns, Heals, Brells, Tanking Ability

    Monk brings pulling ability, DPS advantage.



    99% of time I will take a Paladin thanks. Even if Monk Mitigation goes back to what it was, I will still usually take a Paladin for the MA, or even Secondary Melee role.










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  17. #57
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    Just for the record, I spend half my time asking for a SoT refresh when spammed by brell.

    Warriors don't, do decent damage but certainly much less attack as it is meant to be.



    With equal attack, I'd wonder how numbers would show.


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  18. #58
    Guest

    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>What we want is a distinguished role, something we bring to the group no one else can quite as easily and effectively. And no being a puller is not a role, not that we are the best at it in all situations anyway. <hr></blockquote>



    Welcome to the world of Druids, Bards, Beastlord, Pali's, SK's, Necro's, Mages, Wizards and Rangers.



    The only classes that have firm defined roles and are the best at it are Clerics, Shaman, Chanters, Rogues, Warriors.


    nuf said

    Karthun



    "Dream big and dare to fail!", Norman Vaughan</p>

  19. #59
    Guest

    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    wiz don't have a role?


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  20. #60
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    Default Hmmm

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Welcome to the world of Druids, Bards, Beastlord, Pali's, SK's, Necro's, Mages, Wizards and Rangers. <hr></blockquote>



    And every one of those classes, with the possible exception of the knights, can solo quite well, thank you very much. They have options.



    As for the knights, they are in most XP situations *superior* tanks than warriors. Warrior tanking is for boss mobs. I know when I pull I'd far rather bring mobs back to an SK or Pally - they grab and hold aggro off me like nobody's business.



    Monks can't solo anymore, so need a group. But does the group need them? DPS? Get a rogue (or a mage, or a BL). Pulling? Been done to death here - anyone with a half a brain cell working can pull, especially if the group has crowd control. Tanking? Har har. Only if you have a cleric with a God complex (or the monk has 150AAs).


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  21. #61
    Ascendant Stone Fist
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    Default Re: Hmmm

    Not to mention that the other pure melee (with very little utility) have clearly defined roles.





    I don't think monks need to be the best, but they do need to be something a little better than 3rd or 4th best.


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  22. #62
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    Default oh too true

    I used to pity the SK class because of their horrible hit ratio and the total nerf on their spells and damage and they can't fear mobs over 52 and so on and so on. Now I envy my friend who plays a 61 SK, I group with him with my 51 monk, he pulls, he keeps aggro for our shaman to cast slow immediately and the cleric can complete heal without worries. I think most everyone is agreed that all monks want is to have a real benefit to a group, now how to we make SOE see that?


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  23. #63
    Guest

    Default Re: .

    Regarding the paladin who was fighting undead and being outdamaged by monks:



    You are doing something really, really wrong if this is the case. Either you are grossly under-equipped/under-buffed compared to those monks (or with significantly less AAXP) or you aren't playing your paladin correctly. BEFORE the monk nerf, I was in a three man group in KC basement. All of us were higher level than the paladin that came through solo and decimated the entire area. In fact, since we were there for a special monster and not for XP, we ended up retreating into the room where that monster spawned and let him have the rest of the basement to himself.




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  24. #64
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    We need a role to fill and it needs to be something that makes us a desired class in grouping situations. The question is what is that role to be? Shall we come up with it? Sure who better than the ones who play the class. So we need to determine what we want our role to be. Then with ONE unified voice express to SOE on their boards, that is the role we were meant to fill, make it so. If we unify our opinion and present it to SOE daily then we will be heard. After all the squeeky wheel gets the grease. I seriously doubt SOE has the manpower to have their moderators perusing our boards and handling their traffic anymore. I havent seen a SOE moderator post here for a while in fact.

    My opinion on our role is we should be out damaging everything and getting hit a lot less than we are now. Every presentation of a monk I have ever seen has had his/her abilities being mystical in nature such that everyone around them were awed by how hard it was to hit the monk and how quickly he destroyed his foes. So leave the mitigation where it is if you want SOE but our avoidance should be higher than all (including rogues they are meant to be sneaky not exceptionally good at avoiding getting smacked thus their ability to remove aggro) and our DPS should be equal to the rogue. Yes I said equal. Monks are trained (we are talking non EQ here) where to hit an opponent for maximum effectiveness and damage in a fight. Rogues are trained where best to slip their blade into an opponent to deal the most damage as well however their training typically does not cover how to do this to a wary opponent. Thus the reason they must backstab. So theres my 2cp I now step down from my little soapbox and invite you all to tear this post apart <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">


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  25. #65
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    monk + rogue + cleric + shaman = TEH BEST XP EVER


    nuf said

    Karthun



    "Dream big and dare to fail!", Norman Vaughan</p>

  26. #66
    Ascendant Stone Fist
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    What role is a monk filling there?



    I'm pretty sure I can suggest 2 better choices for anyone you come up with.





    Which is most unfortunate, I wish that was NOT the case. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">


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  27. #67
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    Solinar, the original thread was never about the monk nerf specifically, but was about what class to duo with shamans, and pointed out problems with monks since the nerf and since PoP came around. Also, it dealt with shamans, not clerics. You're not a shaman, but a cleric. Nothing like the same thing. A shaman will find it easier to sustain a melee in duos even against tier-2 level mobs than a cleric. Slow is huge there. (And shamans don't get as much healing aggro as clerics do, generally.)



    But...shamans used to be able to do that really well with averagely equipped monks. The monk nerf and the hard hitting PoP mobs combined to make it a lot easier for a shaman to duo with a plate tank these days. Even an average plate tank. Now, if you want a monk to duo with as a shaman, you'd better never have any lag or any bad luck or resisted slows or interrupts, etc. -- and hopefully have more than the 2500 hitpoint type of monk with you. MUCH more.



    P.S. -- my shaman has duoed with an average 60 warrior quite well in PoP, including against some tier-2 level mobs. Believe me, it's much much easier than doing it with an average 60 monk.






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  28. #68
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    Paladins need to work on something if they are getting beat on undead. I used to duo sometimes with a level 60 paladin on the undead revenants in The Grey. He had the AA skill Slay Undead 3, and was getting critical hits very, very frequently. Along with his regular hits, he commonly hit for 2000 and up, and made a great many 3000's, and plenty of 4000's and even the occasional(not super rare) 5000 hit.



    That's a helluva lotta, um...tranq staff blows combined into a single blow. It would take a monk quite a while to catch up to just a few of those crits, and by the time he did, the pally would have done some more.



    Paladins are not that great a class at many, many levels, but once they get their AA in and get slay undead...wow!


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  29. #69
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    Agreed on the paladin issue. Against undead, with SU3, they cannot be beat. Period. And that is very fitting. That is what they are all about... combating the undead, and evil in general.



    As for monks... I would not want to do the most damage of any class. To me SoE at least has it right in this regard:



    Casters > rogue > monk



    In all roleplaying games, casters are THE class for ultimate damage. They pay for it with exceptionally frail physiques, and difficulty in the lower levels.



    Rogues are about right. They should be the highest damage melee class in the game, considering backstab. I mean, you are talking about plunging a pointy object into places pointy objects are not supposed to go.



    The are several issues I have with rogues, but none are damage related.



    Monks should be behind rogues, no pun intended. At the same time, we should be behind warriors in tanking. That leaves us, with, um, with only pulling though.



    Kind of a catch-22 isn't it?



    Personally, if I was in charge at SoE, at this point, I would just say fuck it, and make monks a hybrid. Very similar to bards. Monks have experienced as hybrids since inception anyways.



    Give the class a line of self-only spells. Give us a mana bar. If you want something used very rarely, make it cost mana. If not, don't. Consider it our mental stamina. The monk “ki” energies.



    The caveat: All our spells have a range of 0. Melee range. That is what monks are all about.



    That way, a monk could, for example, "snare" an opponent by kicking it in the leg(s). "Stun" an opponent by striking its solar plexus. Run exceptionally fast. Do monkly things.



    Just in case SoE is too lazy to come up with good ideas on said combat styles, and since I love to post crazy ideas, what the hell, here is a small list:



    NCA = No Combat Actions; i.e. all forms of combat actions are disabled while in use (similar to divine aura).



    Hardened Physique – Level 3 (regenerate stamina faster)

    Battle Stance - Level 5 (+1 ATK/level, +1% haste/level)

    Hardened Sprint – Level 7 (15% + 1%/level run speed; +50% max)

    Hardened Leap – Level 9 (jump twice as far/high)

    Art of the Snake – Level 15 (+1 AGI/level)

    Art of the Monkey – Level 20 (+1 DEX/level)

    Restore Body – Level 23 (remove one disease/poison counter per tick; NCA)

    Art of the Tiger – Level 25 (+1 STR/level)

    Leg Sweep – Level 27 (reduces a creatures movement rate by 20% +1%/level)

    Art of the Turtle – Level 30 (+2 HP/level, +1 AC/2 levels)

    Fists of Sickness – Level 31 (+1 poison damage)

    Fists of Sundering – Level 32 (+1 magic damage)

    Fists of Frost – Level 33 (+1 cold damage)

    Restore Mind – Level 33 (regenerate +1 mana/7 levels; NCA)

    Fists of Heat – Level 34 (+1 fire damage)

    Art of the Dragon – Level 35 (+1 ATK per level)

    Superior Awareness – Level 37 (all attacks treated as from front flank)

    Dance of Dodging – Level 40 (+25% dodge/block; NCA)

    Flight of the Eagle – Level 41 (prevent falling damage)

    Purify Body – Level 43 (remove three disease/poison counters per tick; NCA)

    Fists of Decay – Level 46 (+2 poison damage)

    Fists of Fury – Level 47 (+2 magic damage)

    Fists of Water – Level 48 (+2 cold damage)

    Quivering Palm – Level 48 (stun mob; 0 second length)

    Fists of Flame – Level 49 (+2 fire damage)

    Fists of Energy – Level 50 (naked fists do 50% bane/elemental damage)

    Battle Stance of the Disciple – Level 50 (+1 ATK/level, +1% haste/level, +2% dodge)

    Dance of Evasion – Level 50 (+50% dodge/block; NCA, only applies to mobs in the monks forward flank)

    Clairvoyance – Level 54 (limited eye of zomm)

    Battle Stance of the Master – Level 55 (+1 ATK/level, +1% haste/level, +2% dodge, +2% block)

    Iron Mind – Level 57 (immunity to fear)

    Lotus Palm – Level 58 (stun mob; 2 second length)

    Death Blow – Level 59 (large multiplier to damage on next hit; uses mana)

    Battle Stance of the Grandmaster – Level 60 (+1 ATK/level, +1% haste/level, +5% dodge, +5% block)

    Dance of the Untouchable – Level 60 (100% dodge/block; NCA, only applies to mobs in the monks forward flank)

    Speed of the Cheetah – Level 60 (+65% run speed)

    Fists of Withering Spirit – Level 61 (+3 poison damage)

    Fists of Thunderous Fury – Level 62 (+3 magic damage)

    Astral Projection – Level 62 (eye of zomm)

    Fists of Flowing Water – Level 63 (+3 cold damage)

    Cleanse Body – Level 63 (remove six disease/poison counters per tick; NCA)

    Fists of Living Flame – Level 64 (+3 fire damage)

    Unbreakable Mind – Level 64 (immune to fear, charm, mesmerize)

    Battle Stance of the Transcendant – Level 65 (+65 ATK, +65% haste, +8% dodge/block)

    Fists of Transcendence – Level 65 (naked fists do 100% bane/elemental damage)

    Astral Form – Level 65 (Divine Aura; NCA)



    Of course, it would have to be coded through casting and delay times so that no more than two stances could be combined at once. And it would be nice if SoE actually decided to do something like this, if they would make most of the styles quested (i.e. you have to prove yourself to a sensei before the knowledge is passed down). Could open up a whole new realm for monks, for both role-playing and just in general.



    But, pfft, I probably am wasting my breath, er, fingers, coming up with stuff like this.


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