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Thread: some views from shaman crucible

  1. #1
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    Default some views from shaman crucible

    forums.interealms.com/sha...eadid=8269



    leveled a monk to 60 to complement my shaman. Monks are very fun to play, and allow you the wonderful escape hatch of FD. If you get overwhelmed or behind in heals, there's often the option to FD. If you get a bad pull, you can FD him and heal him while FD with no aggro; can't do that with any class that cannot FD -- heal with get the shaman aggro for healing. Very helpful; if worse comes to worse and you have to get outta there, monk FD's and shaman either runs or gates. Overall, your monk is going to live a lot more than non-FD classes.



    However, the monk nerf and the high power of tier-2 and even some tier-1 mobs makes monk tanking a thing of the past unless you have a monk who has gotten a lot of good raid buffs. Monks get to around 2500 or so hitpoints off stuff they can buy or camp themselves, and monks who regularly raid get to 4000 or more. There's not really any droppable gear to take you between the two levels of hitpoints. So if you don't intend to put in perhaps years of raiding with your monk(which means years of not raiding with your shaman), your monk will reach a hitpoint limit fairly early on.



    And hitpoints aren't his only problem; the monk nerf on monk mitigation is also a big one. Monks just can't mitigate like they used to. They get hit for substantially more than they used to by the same mobs before the nerf.



    You can still get a monk nice droppable stuff like a cloak of flames(36% haste) or cowl of mortality(41% haste) and the standard tranq staff, etc., but they are not all that easy to find and expensive too. (100k, 175k, and 50-60k on my server.) And they won't help him tank.



    So monks now have significant limitations, especially in PoP. PoP mobs sometimes don't believe FD, and often can't be rooted, or root holds only a second, not enough time to land a heal unless you have four hands and can run your monk around and FD him when necessary while also handling your shaman.



    I duo with my monk all over the pre-PoP world pretty well, and in PoN on ethereal wraiths, banshees, trees, ravens and zone trash. I can duo him against lightcrawlers in PoD if I do the tanking myself, and he is fine with mosquitos and goos and sometimes rats, though rats are not worth the trouble. He can do fine against most zone trash in tier-1 zones.



    But he would make a terrible tank in PoV or PoS. I see monks with much better equipment and hitpoints than my monk has getting torn up by mobs there. A slow that fails is death to a non-uber monk even using the monk's mend skill.



    So if you are wanting a character you can experience with at least as far as PoV and PoS, you need something that can get better hitpoints and mitigation without years worth of raiding. In tier-2 and higher planes it is very hard to two-box and very hard to keep a secondary character properly flagged, and that's where most people will be spending most of their time now. Take a weekend off -- miss a flag, and come back and try again three months later, when your guild is in the mood. If some other guild isn't catching their members up on flags and powering over you to do it instead. So it's not as easy to two-box characters to keep your alts equipped on left over loot nobody wants. You really need to raid as a primary more now to get the raid loot.



    Luckily, plate in general is very easy to come by, and you can buy plate armor now that is excellent. Innate hitpoints, improved mitigation, and high-end buyable armor make it easier to get a plate melee class well above the ceiling of about 2500 or so that a non-raiding alt monk can expect to achieve(you can add on a bit here and there, and natural durability helps, but that figure is about right).



    Plate weapons have gotten really insane too, enabling the true tanks to put out damage comparable to monk damage. Monks used to be great for DPS, but the truth is, rogues and wizards are your DPS classes now, and rangers when using archery, and monks don't really distinguish themselves for DPS anymore. Their two great abilities -- melee avoidance/mitigation and DPS, have been either nerfed or heavily diluted.



    So if you want a duo partner in PoV/PoS, or a partner who is going to perform at a high level if you go through the perhaps huge effort of getting BOTH of you keyed/flagged for everywhere you want to be in PoP and elsewhere, you'd probably benefit more by getting a plate tank.



    In PoP, many groups won't go without a plate tank. Nobody is waiting for a monk. A second plate tank is even great to have in PoP groups in case the first one has to leave at some point or goes LD. Nobody wants a second monk; you don't even really need the first.



    I'd do an SK or a warrior at this point. Warriors are far more useful in general in EQ, but SK's can pull, and that's a lot of fun. And FD let's them explore a lot more in the game, which is also fun. You'll see a lot more of a lot of zones in the game as a character who can FD, because relying on FD is often much better than relying on our crappy shaman invisibility spell. And SK's can tank adequately in PoV and PoS if well equipped.



    Pallies can be strong characters, but they REALLY need to be at least 59 before they stop sucking. They need their higher level buffs and heals to start pulling their weight. Even there, Brell's isn't huge. They can do other things, but it takes a bit of micromanaging, which is tricky enough already as a shaman.



    Considering a warrior takes virtually no micromanagement at all in comparison to other plate melee classes, and is the most essential in the endgame of all the melees by far, you'd probably be best off choosing a warrior for long term viability of both characters.



    Warriors will also get first crack at all the best armor and most of the best weapons if you're raiding (and playing him as a main, perhaps, should you ever choose to switch).




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  2. #2
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Plate weapons have gotten really insane too, enabling the true tanks to put out damage comparable to monk damage. Monks used to be great for DPS, but the truth is, rogues and wizards are your DPS classes now, and rangers when using archery, and monks don't really distinguish themselves for DPS anymore. Their two great abilities -- melee avoidance/mitigation and DPS, have been either nerfed or heavily diluted.



    So if you want a duo partner in PoV/PoS, or a partner who is going to perform at a high level if you go through the perhaps huge effort of getting BOTH of you keyed/flagged for everywhere you want to be in PoP and elsewhere, you'd probably benefit more by getting a plate tank.



    In PoP, many groups won't go without a plate tank. Nobody is waiting for a monk. A second plate tank is even great to have in PoP groups in case the first one has to leave at some point or goes LD. Nobody wants a second monk; you don't even really need the first.



    I'd do an SK or a warrior at this point. Warriors are far more useful in general in EQ, but SK's can pull, and that's a lot of fun.<hr></blockquote>



    This is exactly how other classes are starting to see us, no wonder why I go lfg average 2 hours a night.


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  3. #3
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    Bottom line is.. all we offer is FD pulling and about 10-15% more damage than plate classes.



    Its truly truly lame that Verant have decided to phase out our class like this.



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  4. #4
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>In PoP, many groups won't go without a plate tank. Nobody is waiting for a monk. A second plate tank is even great to have in PoP groups in case the first one has to leave at some point or goes LD. Nobody wants a second monk; you don't even really need the first. <hr></blockquote>







    It's stuff like this VI seems to have taken NO ACCOUNT of, which is bizarre when they've finally fixed rangers and much or their post-kunark problems were similar to the above.




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  5. #5
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    I couldn't have said it better myself.



    Monk needs to do rogue damage dealing. If they can take damage as well I should be dealing damage as well.


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  6. #6
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    Thats pretty true... if we did rogue damage :



    1. We wouldnt need our mitigation back.



    2. SOE could design things around an easy to maintain role (max damage), rather than our previous unclearly defined role.





    My suggestion.



    Leave monk defense the same, raise monk offense so that rogues and monks on the same tier do the same damage.



    Perhaps with rogues doing 5% more but with monks unhittable by ripostes (so we do great damage from ANY direction and they do the best damage from behind (but we are FAR closer to rogues than warriors)).



    In the wilds of Antonica, the forest Tanuki were renowned for their sneaky ways.



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  7. #7
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    Monks not being able to be riposted sounds like one of the coolest ideas i've ever heard. would certainly help monks get groups in places where ripostes are 500 pts a pop. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p">


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  8. #8
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    if we get Rogue DPS, what will a rogue be good for? pickpocketing? lock-picking?



    Kawai has a very good idea, i would be happy with a DPS upgrade so we get near rogues DPS (an upgrade that would make us much better than the plate class) and as a class that should be able to deal very good dmg from all angles, we need some mitigation for ripostes. I don't go as far as Kawai did and ask for imunity against ripostes, but a 80% mitigation against riposte hits would bring us back to a point where we would be wanted in groups (dps wise), but still couldn't tank. Our role would be: high dmg dealer that can mitigate ripostes very well (perhaps as a balancing, put enrage to an other table, so we can't mitigate these ripostes)








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  9. #9
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    Aye, a base monk DPS upgrade (moving monks further away from warrior and hybrid melee DPS and closer, but not equal to rogue DPS) and a reduction (either partial or complete - I guess it'd have to be tested to see how it works) in monks susceptablilty to ripostes would sort the monk out post-mitigation nerf.





    Hopefully in a role VI could successfully balance.


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  10. #10
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    I had a pretty strange idea the other day. How about making our main defense in throwing weapons? We could give them insane damage ratios so when we do get aggro we have a good distance to fd. And since this damage peaks instead of keeping constant, fding wont lower the dps too much as it does with melee.


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  11. #11
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    COM

    is 36% haste i am baffled that people STILL do not know that


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  12. #12
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    Amazes me as well Molt. Also



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Monks used to be great for DPS, but the truth is, rogues and wizards are your DPS classes now, and rangers when using archery, and monks don't really distinguish themselves for DPS anymore.<hr></blockquote>



    Rogues have been DPS classes since Kunark, and Wizards started coming into their own in Velious, and then especially in the latter part of the Luclin era.



    Problem is, it doesn't matter if every last word of what he said was false, its all a matter of perception. If people start to perceive us as a weak broken class, then yes things is going to look very bad when coming to getting spots in xp groups.


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  13. #13
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    Trust me... It IS looking very bad right now to get spots in exp groups.



    5 level 61+ monks looking for group in POV tonight. Was not pretty.


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  14. #14
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    Those 5 monks can easily group in PoV for very good exp, and I will tell you how.



    Farm hate for 3 months to load up each monk on tranquil shurikens. Congratulations, now you can kill one, maybe even two things if you're lucky!!



    Please guys, don't let that secret get out, if dev team gets wind of this you know they'll nerf the insane drop rate of tranq shurikens in hate to prevent our 2%aaxp every 3 months.



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  15. #15
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Monks not being able to be riposted sounds like one of the coolest ideas i've ever heard<hr></blockquote>



    to me that sounds like one of the crappest ideas i've ever heard ever. How often do you need to hit a mob from the front? N E V E R. so why bother. geez i could just see SOE implementing this to 'make up' for the nerf. please...


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  16. #16
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Please guys, don't let that secret get out, if dev team gets wind of this you know they'll nerf the insane drop rate of tranq shurikens in hate to prevent our 2%aaxp every 3 months.<hr></blockquote>





    What!!! Monks can farm 2% of AAXP every 3 months!?!?!?!?!?



    That is so overpowered it's untrue, better nerf monk mitigation some more!




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  17. #17
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible



    The warriors already have an AAXP ability that lets them ignore something like 50% of ripostes and parries. This not only means they take less riposte damage but it also means they do more damage while tanking.



    As such monks getting a similar ability would be seen as invading their turf.




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  18. #18
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    Monks still parse as the 2nd best dps melee on guild raids, but yes monks arent 2nd best dps AND 2nd best tank anymore, oh dear <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">




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  19. #19
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    Monks are not the second best source of raid DPS. Saying something like "melee DPS" is just complete and utter bullshit. The only thing that matters is DPS over the length of the encounter. It doesn't really matter whether it's spell, arrow, pet or melee. And monks aren't anywhere close to #2 on this ranking.



    If you want to say that of the three pure melee's we come in at #2, then yes in most cases that's true. Irrelevant, but true.



    Btw, You are pointless ranger troll No. 2344, please go out and play in traffic untill you redeem your prize.






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  20. #20
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    hmm Monk DPS lets look. (I've taken out exact numbers and replaced them with percentages. with 0 being no dmg and 100% being = to that of the higest Rogue dmg.





    Rogue: 100%

    Pally: 72% (not sure about this number..)

    Rogue: 67%

    Monk: 62%

    Warrior: 47%

    Warrior: 44%

    Warrior: 44%

    Warrior: 40%

    Warrior: 37%

    DC pet: 36%

    Warrior: 35%

    Ranger: 35%

    Mage/necro pet: 34%

    Mage/necro pet: 31%

    Beastlord: 30%

    Warrior: 28%

    Beastlord pet: 27%

    SK: 14%



    here are also some total dmg number taken from a fairly high HP Mob



    Rogue: 74816

    Rogue: 49949

    Monk: 46208

    Warrior: 33219

    Warrior: 32696

    Warrior: 30684

    Pally: 29064

    Warrior: 28408

    Warrior: 26620

    Ranger: 26187

    DC pet: 26151

    Mage/necro pet: 23327

    Beastloard:22316

    Mage/necro pet: 19878

    Beastlord pet:19241

    Warrior: 15848

    SK: 7459


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jil azee>Jilazee</A> at: 11/29/02 5:05:59 am

  21. #21
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    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The warriors already have an AAXP ability that lets them ignore something like 50% of ripostes and parries. This not only means they take less riposte damage but it also means they do more damage while tanking.



    As such monks getting a similar ability would be seen as invading their turf.

    <hr></blockquote>

    not if we get it as innate skill and it would fit perfectly without hurting the balance



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Btw, You are pointless ranger troll No. 2344, please go out and play in traffic untill you redeem your prize.<hr></blockquote>

    you're wrong Kireiina, Callius is prolly not posting here alot, but he sure isn't a troll, you see him on Graffe sometimes too.



    2nd best tanks... come on Call, i remember the time DC was working on HoT mobs... did you ever see a monk Tank? 1 year later.. did you guys use a monk to tank Tunare or AoW or any NToV encounter?

    2nd best DPS, pure meleeing we were 2nd best.... but noone gives a shit about pure meleeing if you play a hybrid that can up his DPS with range or spells, it's overall DPS that matters. Now overall DPS, we not even close to be 2nd, Pet class own us (by far), Hybrids own us and warrior get to close to our DPS.

    If you could change any class in an other, wouldn't you change the monk class into an other one (just have 2 monks let for split / tag pull)? Perhaps change them into higher DPS classes?




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  22. #22
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    Default .

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Now overall DPS, we not even close to be 2nd, Pet class own us (by far), Hybrids own us and warrior get to close to our DPS.

    If you could change any class in an other, wouldn't you change the monk class into an other one (just have 2 monks let for split / tag pull)? Perhaps change them into higher DPS classes?<hr></blockquote>





    Exactly.



    If <span style="text-decoration:underline">all</span> a toon has is DPS like a monk post nerf, then DPS is everything, doesn't matter if it's melee DPS, spell DPS or bow DPS.





    Monks only have DPS and yet they are no where near 1st in DPS, whether it's melee, bow, spell or pet (or any combination) SIMPLY DOES NOT MATTER.





    (this is yet another thing VI overlooked with the recent mitigation nerf).


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fop oodzo@monklybusiness43508>Fopoodzo</A> at: 11/29/02 5:24:13 am

  23. #23
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    what i want, SOE need to see some good info, some good ideas to get us back in line. I don't want to be able to tank Vindi, but i want to be able to deal very good DPS (much higher DPS as a hybrid and warrior, but still under rogues). I want to be able to deal dmg fromany angle w/o having to fear to get smacked down because i have to eat a few ripostes



    -Mitigation nerf was to strong (we all know this, even SOE)

    -riposte Mitigation needs to go up for us as an innate skill ( let us mitigate 80% of riposte dmg)

    -DPS of pure melee classes need to go up (rogues need to go up, because otherwise we would be 2nd best melee DPS, but still having hybrids right behind us). There need to be a noticable difference between rogue/monk vs. hybrids


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  24. #24
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    I don't honestly give a toss about DPS.



    What I want is my mitigation back so that I have a role to play in the game.



    End of story really, I want to have some sort of ability to do something, and tanking gave me that ability, I could take aggro fast on adds til we could get a tank on them, I could tank in XP groups until we could get a plate tank.



    I was versatile and useful in raids and in groups.



    Now I am neither and changing my DPS will not make much of a difference.



    If you think that just upping your DPS is going to make a blind bit of difference, start watching how long Rogues spend LFG.


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  25. #25
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    I hate to say it, but it looked like Varent screwed us.



    We are Rangers of Kunark before EQ2 I would guess.



    However I agree, if we are supposed to be the master of melee in every situation we should be doing rogue damage or a little less. Definatly more than rangers. Why the hell does a class that can heal,buff,track,sow,deal decent melee damage, tank better than us, solo better than us, also get to out damage us with a manaless ranged weapon ?



    EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot they get a larger range of equipment too.


    Kaiin Wurmfist Eternal Vengeance <span style="color:red;">56</span>th Master</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kai inwurmfist>Kaiin Wurmfist</A> at: 11/29/02 6:34:46 am

  26. #26
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    LordofKaos you missing it, SOE dosn't want us to tank till a warrior moves up and take agro, there is no chance that we ever will get to pre-nerf state. Best we can do, is putting indeas up and hope the Designer/ Dev team takes some, test them and implement for the monk class.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>If you think that just upping your DPS is going to make a blind bit of difference, start watching how long Rogues spend LFG. <hr></blockquote>

    and why do you think they LFG? IT'S BECAUSE THE HYBRIDS GET NEAR THAT DPS and can add up spells to help the group. Upping DPS is not only for monks, i never said it was, i always said up pure melee classes DPS. Upping Rogue and Monk DPS will make them be wanted in groups again, but atm you can fit a mage/necro to come to that DPS, or fit a Bst/Rng/Pal/SK and match our DPS.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>What I want is my mitigation back so that I have a role to play in the game.



    End of story really, I want to have some sort of ability to do something, and tanking gave me that ability <hr></blockquote>

    start a warrior or a pally / sk if you want to be able to tank


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=cha sak>Chasak</A> at: 11/29/02 6:57:02 am
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  27. #27
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    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    and why do you think they LFG? IT'S BECAUSE THE HYBRIDS GET NEAR THAT DPS and can add up spells to help the group. Upping DPS is not only for monks, i never said it was, i always said up pure melee classes DPS. Upping Rogue and Monk DPS will make them be wanted in groups again, but atm you can fit a mage/necro to come to that DPS, or fit a Bst/Rng/Pal/SK and match our DPS.

    <hr></blockquote>



    As a pally speaking here, I have to call you on that statement. Hybrids near monk dps? Are you talking about rangers doint their trueshot once every 72 minutes? At that point, they should be passing you and pretty much everybody. They get one short discipline that is at it's most effectiveness when the mob is not moving but not rooted. If moving or rooted, half damage. If touching a wall, no damage. If someone is in direct line of sight, no damage. I think that balances them using that discipline and being the star for that short time period.



    If you are talking about bst lords, they are a pet class and pets seem to be overpowered compared to melee. However, they are definitely the worst of the pet owners and I really don't know how their pets compare in dps to monks. You may be valid there. I doubt it though.



    The other hybrids never come close to monk dps and certainly paladins never come close. It isn't a fair comparision to point to an uber paladin with primal and a goldenrod and tons of aa and lvl 65 and say he outdamages a poorly equipped lvl 55 monk. And that is the only way that a paladin can be outdamaging a monk. As a lower 50's paladin fighting green undead with IoN, shaman buffs, kei, haste equipped and haste buff, I did 32 dps the other night in Lower guk. That is pretty much maxed out in effectiveness. What would a comparable monk have done? I can guarantee a lot more than me. I watch monks there kill 2 or 3 in the time that I kill one.




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  28. #28
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    Default Re: .

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The other hybrids never come close to monk dps and certainly paladins never come close. It isn't a fair comparision to point to an uber paladin with primal and a goldenrod and tons of aa and lvl 65 and say he outdamages a poorly equipped lvl 55 monk. <hr></blockquote>





    No that's not fair at all.



    However that is EXACTLY the comparison that got the entire monk class nerfed from level 1 to level 65. (only with tanking of course) :/


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    Default Re: .

    did you check this post or this post or did you check the Beastlord board?



    Beastlords are monks w/o DA, now with PoP they can train DA 5 times and it makes a big difference

    Rangers don't need Trueshot do get to our DPS or near it and this with no risk



    Paladins get some damn nice 2h weapons, ratio much better than most monks will ever see (Bazaar wise), so you telling me PoP Skill: Knights Advantage and Speed of the Knight are 2 worthless skills and aren't getting you near monk DPS? Ok Monks have Ferocity and Punishing Blade, but there are more Pal or SK 2h weapons with ratio better than 1, as you will see for monks (from the Tier 1 and 2)


    </p>
    Sensei Chasak
    (was) of Bertoxx Server

    "God grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change; courage to change the things i can; and wisdom to know the difference."

  30. #30
    Guest

    Default Re: .

    /agree Dagas.



    While I agree with a lot of stuff said in this thread, saying hybrids own us in DPS is flat out wrong - spell, melee or otherwise. Let's not get carried away here. Only beastlords on the top end are approaching our DPS, and in some cases passing us in ideal situations with their pet, but we still pretty much tank better than them. We will outdamage any knight.



    The only hybrid we have a DPS issue with is rangers, and we *used* to tank very similar to them, so it was a pretty balanced deal. Post-nerf? Hmmm....



    And I agree with LoK, simply upping our DPS a bit adds nothing. We will never be put in a position to outdamage rogues, which means as long as the mitigaion nerf is in place we are the melee DPS class of choice - as long as a rogue isn't around. We will continue to be rogue-lite.



    Riposte immunity? Who cares? When are you EVER in front of a mob these days? If I get aggro I'm FDing it off immediately before I get shredded, or uber-tanking it for a grand total of 12 seconds if I happen to have Stonestance up.



    And how does this even help the pulling issue?



    If anything, I'd be willing to *give up* some DPS to get some form of mitigation back. If I wanted to play a class who's only job was to stand behind a mob and hit auto-attack, a special attack every 6 seconds, and an aggro reducing ability every so often while I prey it doesn't turn its attention to me, I would have started a rogue in the first place.



    Before I had a role as an emergency tank, or a viable duo partner with a shaman or cleric. Now I am Rogue-Lite. Adding a few more points of DPS only makes me Rogue-Less-Lite. Adding riposte immunity is pointless, I don't play in that sandbox anymore.


    </p>

  31. #31
    Guest

    Default Re: .

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    Paladins get some damn nice 2h weapons, ratio much better than most monks will ever see (Bazaar wise), so you telling me PoP Skill: Knights Advantage and Speed of the Knight are 2 worthless skills and aren't getting you near monk DPS? Ok Monks have Ferocity and Punishing Blade, but there are more Pal or SK 2h weapons with ratio better than 1, as you will see for monks (from the Tier 1 and 2)

    <hr></blockquote>



    What I am telling you is that knights can't hit the broad side of a barn. Do you ever hit your autoattack button just to see if it is on, because it has been so long since you hit something? Even against greens. Having better ratio weapons do help when you hit but not when you miss over 40% of your swings against greens. Not that I have a weapon anywhere near a ratio of 1. But the problem is that we can't hit anything and thus do lousy dps.


    </p>

  32. #32
    Guest

    Default Re: .

    I think you find that nearly everyone misses 40% of their swings. Monks damage tables do not increase chance to hit. All we have to hit things more are ATK from our epic (doent stack with most spells) and the fact we DA/DW a bit more and have marginally higher skill caps.



    As you can see, rangers have far more ATK, virtually the same DW/DA virtually the same caps + more. That is why they can do damage thats too near to us.





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  33. #33
    Monk Disciple
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    149

    Default Re: .

    In response to having to hit auto attack to check if it's on? Yes I have. Happens with 2HB's, Of course I now have my misses turned on so I can see them so I don't have to anymore. I'v had many streaks where I've missed with 12 straight attacks with my Facesmasher and my Triple Kick (Wu enabled). It looked like I had 30 or more misses. Sorry I don't log fights. Then all of a sudden I hit on a triple with face and popped 900 points into the mob. At least the hybrid's with a good spell at least can do something (in terms of damage) to the mob maybe not much but more than me during these streaks.



    Now you might ask why I have 2HB. Most of our monks are getting 1HB. To get a decent DPS 1HB I'd have had to wait. So I chose 2HB. I'm happy with my choice overall but the rng really is streaky.



    Arlakis Dreamslayer

    Iratus Lepus

    Zebuxoruk






    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=arl akisd>ArlakisD</A> at: 11/29/02 9:48:11 am
    Arlakis Dreamslayer
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  34. #34
    Guest

    Default Re: .

    In reponse to the Paladin.



    Yes they can trueshot every 72 mins for 1,800pt critical hits that disc last like 5mins.



    You do realise however that a ranger with a decent bow can crit hit for 1k constantly, without ever having to use a disc, without ever running out of arrows (with EQuiver) without ever running out of mana, and also without ever taking any melee damage from the mob in question?



    DPS is still irrelevent, Rogues STILL have the best DPS of all melee and they still outclass 99% of all hybrids, but they are still looking for a group, unless you are asking Verant to like double their DPS so they are hitting like 350pts per second, which will never happen, then it will make sod all difference. So they move from making 120-150dps to what? 170-180dps?



    And you think all of a sudden thats going to make a difference to their group friendliness?



    You really think that 99% of hte EQ population gives a toss about DPS? You really think that groups are sitting around going....hmmm who should we have in our group, well that paladin has a DPS of 80 but the monk has 150, but we could get a rogue instead with 190....



    What the fuck dream planet are you living on?



    Groups usually pick people because of their utility, because after the Slower, the Tank and the Cleric thats all then need:



    Paladins, group heals, Brell's, tanking ability, stuns, incredible aggro control if they are any good.



    Rangers, HP, ATK, SOW, Snare and Slow if an emergency and epic'd, and they pump out good DPS.



    Monks and Rogues...we add DPS ONLY, now they took away our ability to atleast tank a little, what do we bring? NOTHING.



    If there is a choice between a rogue and a monk...why the hell would anyone take a monk?



    Pulling is irrelevent, like has been posted a thousand times, people prefer the warrior to pull, its just easier for them to keep aggro then to have you FD wipe it just as the chanter tashes or the slower slows.



    The one thing we were good at was being versatile, people knew if they took a monk we could manage in an emergency, if the choice was between a rogue and a monk, it came down to did you think you would need the monks ability to tank at anytime.....if not you choose the rogue, if you felt that you might need some tanking ability you took the monk.



    Now there is no choice, it will always be a rogue for there is no reason to choose a monk over a rogue.


    I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

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  35. #35
    Guest

    Default Re: .

    Bravo Lord.



    You can make a lot of sense when you try.


    </p>

  36. #36
    Ascendant Stone Fist
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Posts
    1,501

    Default Re: .

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>If there is a choice between a rogue and a monk...why the hell would anyone take a monk?<hr></blockquote>





    In 95% of cases (post nerf) you wouldn't (the 5%, a rather generous estimate, being place where FD pulling is utterly vital), unless there was no other choice.


    </p>

  37. #37
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    73

    Default Re: .

    All I can say is that every experience group I have been invited too lately, chose me because they needed a puller. I guess I am thankfull they needed me for that, or else I would have been LFG all night long.



    As to the post with the damage parse... its pretty and all, but does not accurately reflect the power of casters. Wizards, mages, and necromancers are doing a ton of damage these days, some of which is far in excess of rogues.



    And I won't even get into charmed pets in some PoP zones. Those things are just plain sick.


    </p>

  38. #38
    Guest

    Default Re: .

    Pulling is fine and all but its a very small role. And in PoP who wants to take the time of a monk splitting the camp when you can just get a chanter. And as its been said chanter pets have MAD Dps. Personally I don't want my class to be known as the pullers. That really screws us over in the long run, as it makes it overly tough to get a group, like we are now. All the other "non group friendly" classes get the ability to solo IE: Pet classes, Druid and Wizard. That leaves us um...yeah screwed. Looking into the future, seeing how much PoP mobs hit for...I'd rather have more DPS than our old ability to "spot" tank. But really I don't think we should have to choose between.



    Tanking

    Warrior>Rogue>Monk

    Damage

    Rogue>Monk>=Warrior



    I get the feeling that something has to give. Shoot, if we are gonna be DPS dependent I woulda made a rogue. Atleast I could do some damage. No point in loosing out on lots of DPS due to Feign Death and mend.


    Kaiin Wurmfist Eternal Vengeance <span style="color:red;">56</span>th Master</p>

  39. #39
    Guest

    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible

    First im not a troll, i actively post on all main class's message boards. Im lucky to have ajob that allows me to read and post all day.

    Dont see many rogues LFG really compared to howmany there are, see alot more ranger lfg as a percentage. Yes the nerf to monks has a valid reason at HI end monks but was done incorrectly that effected monks in general unfairly.

    And at the hi end monks have far more equipment choices than rangers btw.



    Monks dps still easily out beats anyone but rogues, and in quite a few times it beats rogues because rogues need to backstab which is not always easy to do on certain mobs.



    I parsed a thriftling on a mispull last tunare raid, these are blue con mobs with 1 million hp's and medicore AC. i didnt melee but autofollowed a rogue and parsed the whole guild. The monks were by far the best dps beating the rogues even, why because mob kept moving arround and was hard for rogues to backstab. Archery was useless because of the mass of bodies arround the mob, 3 inch mob with small hitbox sucks for archery because anything in the way of an arrows means no damage.



    Its obvious from the new planar abilities that verant has decided that knights and warriors should be by far better at tanking, just be not giving rogues/rangers/monks plana durability.

    Im really not trying to defame monks, but i average with primal/epic 75-80 dps in pov even with nukes/procs i wouldnt reach anywhere near 100 and monks with primal/priceless easily go over 100dps. Even without the mitigation nerf monks wouldnt have gotten grps in pov as tanks, i really dont see how the monk nerf with mitigation effected how monks get groups and if the people making grps think it does then probably safer not to group with them.




    Callius - Warder of Tunare
    Officer and Raid leader of Dragon Council

    "Rangers dont need feign death. We have the real thing!"</p>

  40. #40
    Guest

    Default Re: some views from shaman crucible



    Monks have a high DPS, but they need to be lvl 65 and use fist or raid, to get good ratio weapons. Store bought weapons do not cut it anymore, if you do not want to be gimp start raiding.


    </p>

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