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Thread: HP levels

  1. #1
    Guest

    Default HP levels

    In a thread somewhere on this board, I was talking about HP levels.



    Now last night I had Virtue, Focus of Soul, Endurance of the Boar, Durability 3, PE, Planar Power 2 and level 63.



    5662hp

    +225 - brells (not available but would have stacked)



    5887hp - what I can achieve now.



    thats with 280 Sta.



    For arguments sake, lets say I gain a total of 50hp for gaining level 64 and level 65, and i get my other Planar Power, so I can have 305sta, and that I can reach it, cause i am not sure I can.



    5662

    +225 - Brells

    +50 - For getting Level 64 & 65

    +121 - 25 x 4.84 - 305 sta



    (4.84 is 4hp per sta, +10% Durability +1% for PE) Not sure on the PE/Durability amounts, but if anything I went under.



    6,058hp



    So for gaining no more equipment then I already have....I can break 6k.



    For a toon with 2x100hp items on it.



    This is why we got nerfed, cause i have more HP then a level 61 SK, with moderate gear. This is why our tanking was reduced, because a monk should not have this many HP in a game where AC becomes quite meaningless.



    Now you consider I don't even have that good gear:

    www.magelo.com/eq_view_pr...num=368612



    Most of it is atleast 2 expansions old.



    and you begin to think, well what if 8 or 9 upgrades later I am looking at 6500hp fully buffed, and thats without ever really hitting high high end content (ie VT).



    All of a sudden I am a rival for warriors HP a tier below me, all of a sudden I am equalling the HP of a warrior that has just a little less gear then me.



    In a game where HP is the most important factor of the game, you just cannot have monks with a decent ability to tank and a pool of HP this large.



    The problem is you nerf the ability to tank, and the people without such a large pool are smacked into oblivion and become barely playable.



    Thats why they are having to have a rethink now, cuase it didn't occur to them that taking away a tanking ability without the large HP pool would have a devastating effect. Not everyone has 3500hp unbuffed, not everyone has Durability 3 & PE not everyone has level 65 and not everyone has Planar Power 3.



    Problem is, where do they go from here, they cannot give the tanking ability back to those with a large HP pool because it is frankly unbalancing, espicially to the very high end monks, you cannot increase the HP pool of lower monks without increasing the higher end monks as well.



    So they are stuck.



    Which probably means we are screwed.


    I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

    - Sir Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-1971)</p>

  2. #2
    Guest

    Default Re: HP levels

    You cant really compare someone who hardly plays thus having equipment 6 tiers behind you with someone like yourself.

    Of course a VT level monk is gonna have more hp/ac then a warrior who has just killed Trak for the first time.

    You just cant compare it.



    Because one class can do it doesnt have to mean another class cant (mind you with better equipment). A 61 SK with moderate gear vs you. Off course your gonna win. You have ST and N/ToV loots. Not many, but enough to make the difference. Not that many 50+hp items out there if your not at least doing ToV/ST/NToV and higher.



    Sure you can buy the new Heraldric armors. But they cost a fortune.



    Its silly to even compare the 2 imo.

    Take a warrior at the SAME level of equip as you and the same AA's, then compare. Im sure the warrior will have about 1k - 2k more hp then you. And a good bit more AC.



    Oh well, just felt i needed to respond.




    Brother Jatril Ironscale

    61 Grandmaster



    www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=22105</p>

  3. #3
    Guest

    Default Re: HP levels



    That's cause they're stupid. Obviously if you have an item that gives +100 hit points (or +1000 in the case of spells) to any character it will shrink the relative importance of any variation in the base value. In other words the difference between a class that should have a hit point advantage, such as warriors, becomes almost indistinguishable from a class that shouldn't, like necromancers.



    Why do I say necromancers? Because I saw a screenshot from a FoH necro with 6K hit points. The druids grove is planning on how to get a druid to tank one of the Kael boss mobs (Tormax or vindi).



    Is this fundamental f'up fixed or reduced by monks getting nerfed? nope.




    </p>

  4. #4

    Default Re: HP levels

    ok ... right off the bat ... ive been playing for 2-1/2 years (granted in small guild not alot of major raiding) your gear is awesome ... and no i havent had the benefit of being able to grind out levels like others (no ... im not a "casual" player tho im certainly not a power gamer i have over 165 days played)



    the gear you so casually pass off as not so good is gear i would love to have ... and i consider my gear half way decent

    www.magelo.com/eq_view_pr...num=405476



    its not my fault that verant didnt plan ahead ... however they have slapped mitigation so much that i can barely function ... if they were so concerned about plate classes lack of ability to mitigate then they should have fixed that properly but what they have done to monks especially below lvl 60 is punish us for their lack of foresight.



    dont get me wrong everyone is squawking about dps etc .. i really dont give a damned about dps there are ways to settle that ... and most people, except power gamers, who spend way too much time crunching no.s and arguing their merits and validity basically making them no better than the developers who think crunching no.s without realtime testing is an acurate reflection of their game system



    the whole point is its not much fun playing or playing with a monk anymore. the down time because of massive heals, deaths, rez's, corpse recoveries and mana regen strips the pleasure and fun of playing for all involved



    what i care about is survivability ... and im not surviving encounters as i have in the past ... i am not a tank ... i dont pretend to be one ... and dont want to be one ... i just want to be useful and live thru an ecounter once in awhile (certainly more than i do now since the nerf)


    </p>

  5. #5
    Guest

    Default Re: HP levels

    I currently reach about 6800 raid buffed, a lvl 65 SK in the guild with gear no where near as good as mine, tops 7200.



    When xping in HoH, he tanks a damn sight better than I do - needing 1 CH per mob, compared to the (at least) 2 I need.


    <div style="text-align:center">

    <a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=3863">



    </a>

    </div></p>

  6. #6
    Guest

    Default Re: HP levels

    This is the problem, when you encounter mobs like Vindi and Tormax.



    Defense abilities have very little to do with it, I mean come on when we kill Vindi our tanks have no reason to go defensive.



    Against such a mob non defense, they take an horrendous pounding, Vindi has some huge DPS, but its all about if they have the HP to take that beating til the next CH lands, and considering we only do Vindi to get to statue and AoW, our tanks and our healing power are more then up to the job.



    It doesn't matter what class stands infront of Vindi, if you have the healing power there to keep them alive, then you can beat him with an Enchanter tanking.



    I seen enchanters reaching 6khp fully raid buffed, there is no pratical reason they cannot tank Vindi.



    This is the fundamental problem with EQ right now, not a monks ability to tank, but the sole obession with HP that has pervaded the game, agi, dex, str means absoultely nothing anymore.



    What they should be doing is adding a significant avoiddance value to Agility and a significant increase to DPS with Dex, a quantifiable, noticable difference that people can aim for.



    But you can't even do that because of avatard, because anyone and their granny can max out agi and dex just because of one simple weapon or spell. Unless of course they took the AGI and DEX modifiers out of avatard, which would make a lot of sense.



    So STA and HP become the main focus of attention for pretty much every class there is, because those are the only stats that will make any difference in 99% of all encounters.



    With mana regen at 18 a tick from VoS, bard song, mental clarity AA and FT15, no caster needs to worry about wis and int, it comes with the territory anyway, so they too can turn their attention to HP, which will save their life more times then any other stat will.



    The sole obession with making HP the be all and end all coupled with the the sheer shortsightedness of making HP so readily available and so easy to increase in Luclin AA and PoP AA has had a detrimental effect on the entire game.



    The worst thing is, there is no simple fix, the only thing you can do is remove what you put in, and they will never admit to making such a huge mistake so will instead try and pretend this isn't the root of the problem and try other fixes that they know damn well are not going to work.



    What they really should do, is take out IND PE and Planar Power from monks, remove a few items in the game to lower the general HP total, making it a 100hp max for any item a monk can wear and suffer our wrath, considering the parsing data I been seeing lately, giving monks a marked increase in DPS thru AA would be a nice way to sweeten the blow. Maybe drop DEX and AGI from Avatar and make a fundamental change to the amount of damage mitigated and the amount of dps increased due to these two stats and try and draw people away from the HP race.



    One thing to bear in mind, when we go for a new encounter, something we have not done, we ask two things of our warriors who can attend..



    Whats your base HP

    Whats your best aggro weapon.



    Thats it, we don't care what their AC is because we know that whoever has the best HP and best aggro weapon will be the best tank.



    Thats wrong, it shouldn't be down to two single items/stats.



    You have to bear in mind, all of our warriors have the same gaming skill level, they can all be MT without bating an eyelid so that is not a concern.


    I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

    - Sir Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-1971)</p>

  7. #7
    Guest

    Default Re: HP levels

    Mrykl you miss a fundamental point, that perhaps I made after your post.



    To quote myself....



    "making HP so readily available and so easy to increase in Luclin AA and PoP AA"



    Its not about gear, I do not have the gear to be breaking 3500hp unbuffed, I mean I am over 3700 self buffed, with just me HoT pants.



    I do not deserve that level of HP, it is too high for the gear level I have.



    Why is it too high? because of level 65 and because of AA.



    Now the SK might have the same level gear as you, but he has gained a lot thru getting level 65 (most melee classes gained a lot more HP then we did just for dinging) and thru getting more of an increase thru AA.



    I would bet a good dollar that this SK your talking about has a fair few AA under his belt to be hitting that mark.



    Imagine your IND PE PP increases, and add the fact that these classes earn more from those increases then we do, our base HP per STA is lower then theirs.



    Its not about comparison to be honest, it doesn't matter what the SK or the warrior has next to you, its about what your ability in the game becomes once you hit this amount.



    Thats whats important, and what is being looked at by Verant, it doesn't matter that the Warrior next to you has 35k HP, if you can do his job with the 7k you have, then there is a flaw that they will look at.


    I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

    - Sir Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-1971)</p>

  8. #8
    Guest

    Default Re: HP levels

    Lord of Kaos, your gear is good. It is proven that with par equipment plate wearers do blow monks away in the tanking department. Please let's stop the, if he has far less better equipment than me I am bettar.



    It is walking down the path of retardness.


    </p>

  9. #9
    Guest

    Default Re: HP levels

    You should not be as good as a warrior at their job, regardless of what tier you play at, not only in comparison to the people at your tier but in comparison to ALL of that class at the same level (ie 60 or 65).



    A 65 monk in the best equipment in the game shouldn't be a better tank then a 65 warrior in mediocre gear.



    Regardless of gear, a warrior should always be a better tank, it is what they are inately made for, its their job its what they trained at for the 'roleplay' 65 seasons.



    Obviously this is within reason, if your 65 warrior is wearing cloth then anyone should tank better, but a reasonably geared warrior shouldn't be out tanked by an uber monk.





    Your a monk, you do not have the same plate armour and you do not have the same training, you should not be a better tank and I don't care how much better your equipment is.



    Problem I am pointing out is that because of HP being the end all, a high end very active monk CAN be as good as a warrior of the same level with less time. Because ONLY HP matter and they made them too easy to get.



    Thats the point I am trying to make.


    I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

    - Sir Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-1971)</p>

  10. #10
    Guest

    Default Re: HP levels

    Which is not the case at the moment. A warrior wearing HOT armors will still outtank a monk with NTOV armors.



    Thus your saying the current situation is acceptable?



    Fine then, I am unsatisfied that a warrior using vex thall weaponry can outdamage a monk using a jade mace and a knuckleduster. Thus I DEMAND a nerf to warriors damage tables to compensate since a monk using mediocre weapons should outdamage a warrior using uber weaponry.



    Since we started walking in the path of retardness, hell let`s go all the way.


    </p>

  11. #11
    Guest

    Default Re: HP levels

    LordofKaos, this has been reashed many times.

    Mudflation and new buffs are there for everyone, not just monks.



    Your AAs and buffs give you 6k?

    It's inline with those of all the other melees.

    No reason to punish youself for some obscure reason while eveyone else got a significant boost.


    </p>

  12. #12

    Default Re: HP levels

    ya know LoK for all your spouting and rhetoric this is the first time youve actually made a point that really means something ... and might actually be significant enough to merit review ...



    yes the ONLY stats in game that mean anything are hp and sta ... but the mitigation nerf was not the way to balance that ... instead of smacking our ability to mitigate damage they should have made ac a significant factor in our overall ability to mitigate that damage ... thus a warrior w/ (simple example) 2k ac should be able to mitigate damage better than a monk w/ 1.2k ac reguardless of level or hp ... that would make sense



    similarly agi should improve that factor by x ... as dex should improve one's ability to land a blow (not just proc a weapon)and strength should improve the amount of damage caused by that blow ...



    but this is verant ... and verant so far has proven to be very limited in vision ... trying to cure the symptom and not the disease ... is there a cure? yes ... will verant take the appropriate steps? doubtfull ... would actually require them to do some work which means they would actually need to review their own knowledge of the game and their own understanding of how their no.s integrate w/ actuall game play ... it would require a complete breakdown of the game ... of course then class balancing wouldnt be an issue cause things would balance out themselves ... but verant is too busy chasing symptoms .. and calling it the big picture and ignoring the disease


    </p>

  13. #13
    Guest

    Default Re: HP levels

    "Which is not the case at the moment. A warrior wearing HOT armors will still outtank a monk with NTOV armors."



    He will now after the nerf.



    Yes the current situation is acceptable...except, not every monk has NToV loot and AA out the wazoo and those that do not are adversely affected by the nerf, which just blatantly ignored the fact that changing the mitigation levels will effect those without huge HP pools.



    You know you talk about retarded a lot, but perhaps if you bothered to read what I posted earlier (considering that paragraph is a direct repeat of what I have already posted) you wouldn't look so retarded.



    I do totally agree with you though. a warrior with VT weapons should not do more damage then an averagely equipped monk, its not what they are designed for and regardless of their equipment level they should not be able to beat a monk. Frontal damage is what we are trained for its what we are about and we should do more damage regardless of what a warrior wields.



    Thats not retarded, that makes complete sense.



    For an analogy, you have a gunner in the marines, you give him the greatest samurai sword on the planet, you think all of a sudden he is going to be more lethal then a trained Samurai? You think all of a sudden ohh he has a good weapon, all of a sudden he knows how to wield it, how to make the most of it, where to strike, how to strike? Or do you think a Samurai wielding a craptastic sword would still prove to be the more lethal swordsman?



    Makes sense doesn't it.



    Why the fuck should the merit of your weapon all of a sudden mean your better at something then someone who has trained their entire like to do a specific job. Thats what damage tables are for.



    You do remember this is a role playing game right? and that you are supposed to have trained your entire life for the one thing you do? You do remember that aspect of the game?



    Warriors are good with weapons, we are the masters, we should always have better DPS.


    I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

    - Sir Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-1971)</p>

  14. #14
    Guest

    Default Re: HP levels

    There we agree on something.



    Monks should never outtank a warrior as a warrior should never outdamage a monk.



    Not the case thought. Right now a monk with best possible armor can indeed normaly outtank a warrior wearing crafted but...



    A warrior with best possible weapon can EASILY outdamage a monk using say a fighting baton and a blackjack.



    And rogues... Well lol. They can both outdamage and outtank us. So won`t even bother going there.



    Not aceptable situation.






    </p>

  15. #15
    Guest

    Default Re: HP levels

    Pardons all :P



    but i posted

    Bossmob Tanking ability = HP + aggro

    shortly after the nerf.



    LoK is correct on that one point, tho its not original. The rest of his post is pretty much crap tho.



    I also proposed that the correct way to prevent monks from doing uber tanking was to modify the hate they generate on boss mobs.




    Grazel Nukite, Grandmaster


    Triage Quadbypass, Vicar of 60 Blueberries


    Valiant Elite, Druzzil Ro


    </p>

  16. #16
    Guest

    Default Re: HP levels

    Quote:



    Warriors are good with weapons, we are the masters, we should always have better DPS.







    There is two flaws in this, the first being that warriors are the masters of Weaponry (ie. Swords, Axes etc.), monks are the masters of Unarmed (ie. your fists and your feet) combat.



    Therefore, DPS is not the monks alone, do not assume it is...if a warriors was lower it would mean that the monk would be the only fighter class in the game, wich would also mean the guilds would get their collective heads handed to them on a platter.


    </p>

  17. #17
    Monk Disciple
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    121

    Default Re: HP levels

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>You should not be as good as a warrior at their job, regardless of what tier you play at, not only in comparison to the people at your tier but in comparison to ALL of that class at the same level (ie 60 or 65)<hr></blockquote>

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Warriors are good with weapons, we are the masters, we should always have better DPS<hr></blockquote>



    i'm sorry but these statements are absurd. first of all, by your own statement, a 'chanter with enough HP can tank as well as a warrior. secondly, you are saying that a monk should outdamage an equal lvl warrior every time? come on now. quit comparing apples and oranges.



    if you want to make comparisons or statements, you HAVE to take consideration of the tiers. yes, tier 1 monks should outdamage tier 1 warriors and tier 1 warrios should outtank said monks. should a tier 3 monk be able to outtank a tier 1 warrior......maybe. should a tier 3 warrior be able to outdamage a tier 1 monk......maybe. thats what happens when you improve your gear. you get better at doing things like that. i'd hate to try and pull in a higher teir zone when i've been so gimped that lower teir mobs would still own me.


    <a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=67354>Tempur Flarin</a> - The Maniac Monk
    Vitam Aeternam

    I have come to kick ass and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of bubblegum.</p>

  18. #18
    Guest

    Default Re: HP levels

    the second being,



    Monks have two little things called Mend and Feign Death....if you want to out tank a warrior ......out DPS a warrior.....then take those two things away.



    Ever dueled a warrior with gear equivalent to your own? who wins?.......Ill answer for you, you do.







    Zwinmar Blitzkrieger

    Myrmidon of 55 Seasons

    -Ice Cold M>Fooker-


    </p>

  19. #19
    Guest

    Default Re: HP levels

    I have a question? Can anyone tell me why it is ok for a sk or paly to tank as well as a warrior when they have magic but it is not ok for monk who only have their fighting ability? I have yet to see any reasoning. They can dish out damage use magic and out tank us. All the warrior needs is a better taunt. The only classes that are replacing warriors are the hybreds period. I like having a paly or sk tank simply becuase they can keep the mob off my butt while the warrior cant. And the fact that u guys think that the most uberist monk should not be able to tank as well as a average warrior to me is just retarded. I get out hit all the time by other melee with just average gear like me. Think about what you guys are saying. To me it looks like a warrior posting with a made up monk magelo just to look real. I dont mean to upset anyone but i just cant uderstand you people's logic at all<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">


    Sarulle 61 monk

    Braxim 55 ranger

    Brazim 50 cleric



    my magelo profile</p>

  20. #20

    Default Re: HP levels

    ok LoK you started this thread discussing hit points and their significance to the high level game ... why do you degenerate into dps and weapons



    virtually every thread on this board degenerates in to a discussion of dps and weapons and who's better than whom



    thats a dead end discussion ... hasnt that been proven yet ... the bottom line is monks WERE nerfed not thier dps ... their ability to mitigate damage ... not because of dps ... but because it was determined that "monks were able to tank better than warriors" ... this is the subject that needs to be discussed ... i dont want bones from verant "you broke me .... waaaaahhhhh" .... "it's their fault ... waaahhhhh" .... "you broke us ... but look what they got thats better ... waaaahhh" ... "since you did this i want that ... waaahhh" ...



    i just want verant to get off their lazy asses and restore some dignity to the class ... its ovious throught these threads that bottom line for the majority of us (who gives a damn how many of what level) is that we've taken a serious hit to our ability to contribute to the game ... its obvious throughout these threads that we as a class would like some semblance of what we were returned ... its obvious throughout that game play for alot of us is no longer fun and isnt that ultimately what its all about fun?


    </p>

  21. #21
    Guest

    Default Re: HP levels

    Hp Stam on monks, warrior ac, monk ac,

    You know whats wierd about this? This is the shit i have been spewing out since BEFORE the fucking nerf!



    A monk should not tank as good as a warrior.

    A warrior should not do as much damage as a monk.

    A warrior should have more HP then a monk.



    See the problem? Monks dont tank as good as warriors, but we arnt too far off because of our damn hp and ac not worth as much.(this is concerning higher end so dont preach to me about low end untill i start addressing it)



    A warrior should not do as much damage as a monk. At the higher end this is semi true.



    A warrior should have more hp then a monk. This is also true, but monks are too close.



    Solution to all of this? Nerf Mitigation? No, Nerf our damn equipment you lazy fucks!

    Since the nerf at the mediocore area warriors ARE tanking better then monks thats for sure since monks cant do crap at the moment. Too bad it wasnt the aim of the nerf.

    Warriors shouldnt do as much damage as monks in the medicore area, but since the availibility of warrior weps at the lower end compared to monks is much much much greater, warriors easily outdamage monks.



    Please SoE, you know your wrong, you know you guys screwed up, we dont care that you dont want to admit it, just fucking reverse the current nerf and nerf equip. Or "re-examine" the nerf as you call it.


    <div style="text-align:center">Sionistic Triplefist

    59 Monk

    Veeshan</div></p>

  22. #22
    Guest

    Default Re: HP levels

    Or at least make up your mind aout what we should be.



    Aka Prolly not an offensive class with 80% of AA's being defensive.


    </p>

  23. #23
    Guest

    Default Why they won't nerf rogues...

    Backstab only works in groups. SOE likes people to group, therefore they probably won't nerf rogues (much) Same with ranger archery, the damage is halved without someone tanking the mobs.



    Grimmy






    </p>

  24. #24
    Guest

    Default Re: Why they won't nerf rogues...

    Rgoues CAN solo casting mobs you know, and guess what, when casting mobs cast, they dont turn! FG anyone?

    Ah the good old days of NFP selling, rogues killing sir william for fun.


    <div style="text-align:center">Sionistic Triplefist

    59 Monk

    Veeshan</div></p>

  25. #25
    Guest

    Default Re: Why they won't nerf rogues...

    Tibbil, the moment a nerf was indicated, and remember we knew this was coming for awhile before it happened.



    Several of us stood up, me included, saying the ONLY way to hit the people you need to hit without unbalancing the class, was to look at equipment.



    This isn't new, they knew this before hand.



    The only way to deal with this issue is either re-itemize monk wearable equipment in the end game, or re-evalute AA skills that monks have access to.



    Problem is, that would actually require some work, and Verant have clearly proven time and again, that if they can 'fix' something properly but it requires an investment of time and effort, or they can fix something badly which requires little time or effort, they are going to aim for the latter.



    Shit those fucktards are probably already working on the next expansion.



    I swear to god they only make these expansions now so they can use it as an excuse for not fixing shit...



    "ohh sorry most of our team are working on expansion X but as soon as we can we will get around to fixing it"



    Yeah sure, wouldn't want you to slow down and stop an extra buck getting in your pocket first now would I.



    I don't really hold out much hope for monks right now, you are screwed, the only fix that would seriously work for all levels of monks is re-itemization, and that is never going to happen because of the sheer volume of equipment (the bane of making most of the best stuff All/All, gonna be a bitch to track it all down).



    So personally thinking I don't think SoE are going to do shit, the way they see it is, they screwed you, your still playing...whats to fix?


    I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

    - Sir Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-1971)</p>

  26. #26
    Guest

    Default Re: Why they won't nerf rogues...

    A warriror in my guild if I am not mistaken can nearlly touch 8khp (This may be easy.. it may not I'm not sure) and even a mini-boss mob in PoS reduces his hp by 50% in a round or so.



    LordofKaos

    "I seen enchanters reaching 6khp fully raid buffed, there is no pratical reason they cannot tank Vindi."

    And how would an enchanter keep agro during this battle?





    Simple why do you think Naggy and Vox now port people out of the zone?


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jil azee>Jilazee</A> at: 11/29/02 1:10:25 am

  27. #27
    Guest

    Default Re: Why they won't nerf rogues...

    Frankly, I doubt they'll go through hundreds of items and reclassify them non-monkly, and I'm not sure what else they're willing to do. If they catered their average customer instead of problems at the very top end of the game -- where I'm sure they are, if any of them play -- then maybe they would un-do what they've done with the nerf, but frankly I don't think they care much.



    They sat quite happily through years of complaining by shamans that some spells were extremely hard to get unless you were in an uberguild, and not just basic spells -- core, defining spells for the shaman class. Without his rare DOTs, a shaman at 60 was using a level 49 dot. Can you imagine any other class having to function at the level of a 49 at 60 -- and that being fair? Verant really didn't care for a few years.



    Do you want to see what happens to monks in a few years? If the game is still around, and you're still in it? I dunno, I would be more surprised if they worked this all out any time soon -- if at all -- than if they just congratulated themselves on a job well done and thought no more about it.



    I'm afraid things don't really look all that great for monks who don't have the uber gear.



    Suddenly they look great for plate tanks -- and there are more of them than there are monks. So for reasons of dollars, too -- why would Verant care?


    </p>

  28. #28
    Enlightened Grandmaster Wubao's Avatar
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    Default Zwin, come on now

    "Therefore, DPS is not the monks alone, do not assume it is...if a warriors was lower it would mean that the monk would be the only fighter class in the game, wich would also mean the guilds would get their collective heads handed to them on a platter. "



    Heh. I think you're missing something VERY basic about EQ.



    If warriors did more damage than monks, there'd effectively be NO REASON whatsoever to play a monk.



    They wouldn't be able to do more damage than either a warrior or a rogue. The wouldn't be able to tank better than either.



    They'd be completely gimp.



    So yes, it's safe to assume that Monk DPS should be above warrior DPS when comparing monks and warriors of the same level/gear/whatever.



    Otherwise, it'd be the inverse of what you're talking about ... WARRIORS would be the only fighter class in the game.



    "Monks have two little things called Mend and Feign Death....if you want to out tank a warrior ......out DPS a warrior.....then take those two things away."



    It's back to class balance. Mend makes monks more efficient at soloing. As does feign death. That monks have problems now SOLOING means they've gone and gimped even THOSE TWO abilities.



    The change was bad. It's really gone and mucked up what it is monks are and what monks do in this game.



    In a group, mend is useless 90 percent of the time.



    In a group, feign death is only used when I pull. In some groups I never pull because the group WANTS a bunch of mobs coming and its easier to just send the warrior with the 200 range bow out there to do that.



    So then FD becomes useless.



    All that's left is DPS.



    And for monks to remain viable in GROUP situations, where their innate class skills are LESS useful ...



    YES, monk DPS needs to be higher than warrior DPS.



    It's just the only option available to create any semblance of balance between the two classes fighting for the same limited spots in groups.



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  29. #29
    Enlightened Grandmaster Wubao's Avatar
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    Default Are you serious?

    "And how would an enchanter keep agro during this battle?"



    Oh come ON!



    Chanters can maintain aggro.



    No really, they can.



    Sure, against Vindicator there may be some issues about channelling and what not.



    But I'm betting a dedicated chanter with 6k hps and the guild to work on it with him, COULD tank Vindi.



    Hell, just snare glands alone could do it.



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  30. #30
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    Default Re: Are you serious?

    I'm sure anything with 6khp could tank Vindi with the right CH rotation. Heck if you heal every 0.5 seconds I'm sure something with 3-4khp could tank Vindi.



    Question is why would you want a chanter to tank Vindi sure in theory it would work but why would you do it?



    Its just the evolution of the game. Did anyone complain when Kunark came out and single groups were able to kill Naggy? HELL YES! because at the time the amount of "boss" mob targets was in this 20s I would guess. So guild killing Naggy with one group was silly. Now we have UNTOLD amounts of "Boss" mobs across all teirs for guilds to tackle.



    The amount of HP we have I think is fine. There are mobs out there that can strip a warrior of 8khp+ in a few rounds, there are mobs out there like vindi that said warrior and friends could kill with a single group but why would they?



    Even if everyone had 10khp things would still be the same. Warriors would Tank, Chanters would Debuff and Mez Haste, Shamen would (De)Buff and Slow. Monks would pull, Clerics would heal. Things would be easier but each class would still have the same role.



    I don't care if a necro in my guild has more HP than me. Will he be used to pull. No, Can I feed mana, Dot and do the Necro things? Nope. See past the HP.



    "This is why we got nerfed" - The reason some of us got nerfed wasn't because we've got so much HP. It was because our ability to take/avoid damage was comparable with that of a warrior in "plate" armour.



    EDIT - I say "some of us got nerfed" because it appears to have hit some monks alot harder than other and some don't even see the diffrence in a way that effects them.




    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jil azee>Jilazee</A> at: 11/29/02 4:40:43 am

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Are you serious?

    Warriors can spend 30k and buy a weapon that with a 2k suit of armour will allow them to outtank and outdamage monks who spend more on their equivalent weapon alone and who have to give up nearly half their weight allowance to use.



    And you are saying that a monk with 100+ aa and semi-uber equipment tanking better than a bottom tier warrior is the problem?



    If you can buy a single item that gives a monk warrior=level AC/HPs/Mitigation/100aaxp .. then warriors would be worthless. Strange since warriors can buy a single item that does the equivalent to us.





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  32. #32
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    Default Re: Are you serious?

    hmm, sorry but where's the point of this thread?



    Mudflation is a known flaw.

    Luclin and pop skills just made it worse.

    The nerf just picked one class out of all the other melee when in fact they all benefited greatly by both.

    Warrior weapon allowing them to do monk damage diminished most of the time the point to have a monk in a group even for dps.

    Even SOE recognized they missed the mark.



    So why going again over it?


    </p>

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Are you serious?

    I wish you people would stop talking about mudflation like it means something to the monk class.



    Here i will repeat the quick easy guide to monk mudflation.



    Question:



    Why do all monks look the bloody same?



    Answer:



    Cause there just isn't that much gear for us.



    Conclusion:



    Mudflation isn't relevent to a class where all the members of that class wear the same poxy gear.





    We have not benefited from mudflation at all.



    The only thing that Luclin brought to our class, aside from AA, were Grey Flesh Sleeves, that just became the new Azure Sleeves. Before we all wore Azure and in Luclin we got an upgrade. What else changed?



    The crap armour they introduced wasn't even as good as the stuff we were wearing before.



    Oiled Greaves - Nothing Better buyable in POP

    Barbed Dragon Boots - Nothing Better buyable in PoP

    Fungi Tunic - Nothing Better Buyable in PoP

    Tranix/Froglok/Vallon - Nothing Better buyable in PoP

    SpiderFur/Haste - Nothing Better buyable in PoP



    So the entire Monk mudflation comes down to a single set of sleeves?



    Ohh the effect that must have had on our class.



    Besides how can you call the finding of a weapon in the newest expansion, mudflation? Windblade isn't mudflation, its stupidity.



    Mudflation would have been if the windblade had been around since the Velious expansion and only now was becoming cheaper to buy and more accessible to more people, thats mudflation, adding an overpowered weapon to the newest expansion isn't mudflation at all.


    I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

    - Sir Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-1971)</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=lor dofkaos>LordofKaos</A> at: 11/29/02 6:08:33 am

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Are you serious?

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Oiled Greaves - Nothing Better buyable in POP<hr></blockquote>



    I hear ya bro. But we always can buy a 350k pair of Flayed Barbarian Skin leggings. /snicker. Another example of the jump between 2.5k hp and 4k hp monks. Seems mudflation has yet to hit monks. Well the non uber monks atleast.




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  35. #35
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    Default Re: HP levels

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    Frankly, I doubt they'll go through hundreds of items and reclassify them non-monkly, and I'm not sure what else they're willing to do. If they catered their average customer instead of problems at the very top end of the game -- where I'm sure they are, if any of them play -- then maybe they would un-do what they've done with the nerf, but frankly I don't think they care much.

    <hr></blockquote>



    Actually, ALL they'd need to do is add vengeance/AoB on monk-only items. They already suck because of the lack of ac/hp on 'em, so if they add vengeance every single damage dealing monk would go for it. Make AoW leggings 40atk 16ac/60hp instead of 60ac/100hp and I bet you'll see lots of people wearing 'em. Put a FD %mod or FK %mod on some items, you'll see people wearing those too.



    It all comes down to having a coherent vision for what a class can do, and implementing it.


    </p>

  36. #36
    Guest

    Default Re: HP levels

    Pokiri thats no different from what he just said.



    They are NOT going to go through the entire equipment database changing anything and everything a monk can wear.



    That would actually require a real amount of work and dedication.



    They are not prepared to spend that much time on our case.



    Not when all they have to put up with is people whinging.



    Like I said, your still playing your monks, there is nothing to fix as far as Sony is concerned.


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  37. #37
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    Default Re: HP levels

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    They are NOT going to go through the entire equipment database changing anything and everything a monk can wear.

    <hr></blockquote>



    That's not what I said. I said they should change the monks-specific gear so that it's worth wearing over all/all gear and fits with a coherent vision of the class. There's probably less than 50 items total that need to be changed, maybe a little more if there's a few sets of armor in PoP. If monks can hit a much higher level of atk than warriors, then there's an advantage to the class even without the hp/mitigation that warriors have.



    It's the exact opposite of the dru/mnk/bst idiocy that PoP seems to have produced. The gear's so mediocre for every class that can wear that it just gets banked.


    </p>

  38. #38
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    Default Re: HP levels

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>So for gaining no more equipment then I already have....I can break 6k.<hr></blockquote>You're bragging about breaking 6k? The warriors in my guild have already broken 8k. And they can out-agro you with their right hand tied behind their back. You are aren't even close to tanking like they do.


    Syke, Guild <a href=http://www.phank.com>Phank</a> of Druzzil Ro</p>

  39. #39
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    Default Re: HP levels

    Bloodclaw leggings > Oiled greeves

    also buyable


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  40. #40
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    Default Monk mitigation nerf was not only ..

    .. unbalancing, monk mitigation needs to be improved over the pre-nerf values. Why? Because a monk only brings two things to a group: damage and tanking. A pure melee should top every hybrid in his specialty to maintain the relative balance in utility provided to the group. Hybrids trade away ability for versatility. For instance, SK's bring more HP, more agro, snare, reliable fear, and decent damage (if counting spell damage, too). Paladins and rangers bring similar extras. Monks can no longer tank, so they only bring a teeny bit more damage than a warrior. Yawn. Get a rogue, wizard, or ranger for your group. Punt the monk. I'm seeing this behavior reflected all over -- take a look at the recent shaman cross-post, summed up pretty much as "monks are not viable for xp groups in PoP"



    BTW, bloodclaw legs are worse than golden star legs by a lot. Why buy bloodclaw when you can buy an MQ in kael for less?


    </p>

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