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Thread: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

  1. #161
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    Knowing what it does and seeing all of the data compiled in a single test case, then graphed gives a clearer picture of its effectiveness.


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  2. #162
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    I dont see how shielding parses are any use.



    It's a directly known amount. N% off the DB of the mob. So tell me the DB of the mob your parsing on, remove the N% of DB and hey presto, no need to parse at all. And also of course, since it's removing the DB portion that depends on the mob your fighting.



    I think of more value would be to do the same above parses but for the avoidance AA's, and for avoidance mods, since there are unknown.


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  3. #163
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    *grumbles*



    someone casted buffs on me this morning so one of my PE parses is bad, gonna have to redo it, not happy :P



    also when your attacking a summoned NPC your buff timers dont count down and disappear so thats how i know the parse was broken =(


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    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ned rom2004>Nedrom2004</A> at: 5/27/05 4:16 pm


  4. #164
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    One interesting point (to me at least) is that our vastly improved rate of return post-cap (compared to how it used to be), combined with our low soft cap, make the mitigation aas seem less useful.



    ie. If Demandred's graph is correct, and cs3 raises the soft cap by a grand total of 19 raw ac... well, to me it then becomes questionable whether the 12 aas are worth it. Before, when we were getting 1/40 post-cap, raising the soft cap a few points was huge because doing so equated to a few hundred raw ac after the cap, (ie. raising my soft cap by 20 is equivalent to getting 800 more raw ac, post-cap).



    With the post-cap returns so much more reasonable, the mitigation aas seem a lot less relevant... something to eventually get, perhaps, but nowhere near as important as they might once have been.



    Incidentally, raw ac = the actual ac value of each item added up = the 'AC' component in Magelo's Mod tab, right? If so, then it seems to me even moderately geared monks will still exceed the cap... I'm at 303 myself right now, and am by no means uber.


    Fumika

    Guild Leader of Court of the Crosswinds</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=san tino>santino</A> at: 5/27/05 4:17 pm

  5. #165
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    Then guestimate graph Shielding at 10% and 20% onto the existing graphs. The point is to show comparative effectiveness to the Mitigation AAs. If you show it graphically, with data it's much more quickly quantified in relative effectiveness. It can then help people decide how much to pursue Shielding along with AC in their gear choices.



    Until you actually see the data integrated with the parsed information it's much more difficult to judge the quality. But if you plot out 20% shielding and see an very large dip in average damage, it sure would drive home the point.



    Either way, adding the data to the mitigation graph is a useful exercise and parses to further backup guestimates would be beneficial.


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  6. #166
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>even moderately geared monks will still exceed the cap... I'm at 303 myself right now, and am by no means uber.<hr></blockquote>



    thats the whole point of this parse...to show you that the cap is allready exceeded by a lot more monks than you realize


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    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ned rom2004>Nedrom2004</A> at: 5/27/05 4:20 pm


  7. #167
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    ...hard to say if this is a bug...but i just added PE parse at 1798 AC



    600 1798 25.71 7.28 242.67

    600 1798 28.41 6.32 234.29

    600 1798 31.47 4.68 224.32

    600 1798 31.01 5.59 230.88



    this includes all defensive aa, cs3, id5 and PE



    im going to run the 1639 test now and see if we get the same results...



    max hit is 17% worse and average hit is 3% worse after buying PE...



    sounds odd but lets wait til i get the next test.


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    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ned rom2004>Nedrom2004</A> at: 5/27/05 5:59 pm


  8. #168
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    bug for sure


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  9. #169
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    hmm, test server just went down, i guess no more parses today, too soon to start up another before raid =


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  10. #170
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>thats the whole point of this parse...to show you that the cap is allready exceeded by a lot more monks than you realize<hr></blockquote>



    Nod, which is what led to my post on the 'is mitigation fixed' post saying how these parses agree with my own experiences, and explained why the initial repeal and soft cap raising) felt far less significant than the drastic change to post-cap gains we most recently received.



    As far as I know, there's no disagreement currently on that subject.



    That conclusion was really tangential to the point of my post, however, which was that the mitigation fixes we've recently received actually make the mitigation aas less meaningful than they were previously. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">




    Fumika

    Guild Leader of Court of the Crosswinds</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=san tino>santino</A> at: 5/27/05 6:59 pm

  11. #171
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>That conclusion was really tangential to the point of my post, however, which was that the mitigation fixes we've recently received actually make the mitigation aas less meaningful than they were previously.<hr></blockquote>I'm not sure what you are smoking, but it's probably not good for your brain.


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  12. #172
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    santino speaks the truth



    lets make this hypothetical



    before april may patch:



    monk_a has 1000 AC

    softcap is 900 AC

    monk_a has CS3 which makes the softcap: 1000 AC



    after patch:



    monk_a has 1000 AC

    new softcap is 1100 AC

    monk_a has CS3 which makes the new softcap: 1200 AC



    monk_a now gets less benefit from CS3 and has to actually search for more AC on gear to take advantage of it...hence why he posted the above statement



    i do see where he is coming from...



    but as you see from my parses, even ID5 has a huge benefit at low level AC, Ex: 1167 parse


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    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ned rom2004>Nedrom2004</A> at: 5/27/05 7:39 pm


  13. #173
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    wtf... let's say we have two monks with 1300 ac, way above the caps. Mitigation monk has cs3 and id5, while lazy monk has has no mitigation aa's. To make up for this, on this particular test mob, the lazy one would need 20% shielding to get the same average hit as the mitigation monk. It's a false statement to say these aa's become less meaningful after our fix. Back in our nerfed days the lazy one would be laughing his ass off because the mitigation monk had spent tons of aa, only to get a mitigation improvement of 2-3% shielding.


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dem andred>Demandred</A> at: 5/27/05 8:10 pm

  14. #174
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>hmm, test server just went down, i guess no more parses today, too soon to start up another before raid =<hr></blockquote> PE fix incoming :)


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  15. #175
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    there is no way i screwed up two 90 minute parses



    i made no changes, i had no buffs, i had the exact same stats



    i went from no aa, to cs3 to id5 and then added PE



    now PE is making my defense worse...why?



    500 1639 23.87 8.35 250.20

    <span style="color:blue;">500 1639 26.35 7.64 242.55</span>

    <span style="color:red;">500 1639 30.11 6.00 229.45</span>

    <span style="color:purple;">500 1639 30.78 7.44 233.65</span>



    600 1798 25.71 7.28 242.67

    <span style="color:blue;">600 1798 28.41 6.32 234.29</span>

    <span style="color:red;">600 1798 31.47 4.68 224.32</span>

    <span style="color:purple;">600 1798 31.01 5.59 230.88</span>





    I'm bringing this to Kavhok's attention



    1639 is almost 20% worse for max % hits and average hit is 2% worse



    if this is on live, who knows how long it has been bugged...


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    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ned rom2004>Nedrom2004</A> at: 5/28/05 1:34 am


  16. #176
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    400 1482 22.47 9.55 259.66

    <span style="color:blue;">400 1482 23.81 8.92 254.06</span>

    <span style="color:red;">400 1482 25.86 7.32 243.02</span>

    <span style="color:purple;">400 1482 25.08 8.09 244.75</span>



    PE strikes again!


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  17. #177
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I'm not sure what you are smoking, but it's probably not good for your brain.<hr></blockquote>



    I don't smoke, but I'm happy to start if it will make you smile. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">



    The relative value of the mitigation aas per aa cost is less now than pre-fix.



    Pre-fix, it was more important to get aas that raise the soft cap than it is now. Why? Because the ac gains post-cap were so much worse, (1:40 vs. 1: 2-7ish)



    The cost of the aas remains static, the value increase per mitigation aa also is presumably static... yet the soft cap increases gained are less significant precisely because our post-cap gains are accelerated. Obviously, increasing the soft cap nets you 1 ac per each ac point the soft cap increases, then and now... but, whereas before that 1:1 is replacing a 1:40 ratio, now it's replacing a 1:7 (or whatever).



    That's what I mean when I say the relative value now to pre-fix is worse.



    Anyway, it's a minor point... just something that struck me while I was waiting for my project to compile.


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  18. #178
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    In absolute terms, you are better off now than before, just that the AAs aren't as critical to making use of the armour you already have. No loss there... it all helps <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">


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  19. #179
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>In absolute terms, you are better off now than before, just that the AAs aren't as critical to making use of the armour you already have. No loss there... it all helps <hr></blockquote>



    Exactly. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">


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  20. #180
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    added 1325 PE parse, numbers are still off


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  21. #181
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    added 1010 and 1167 PE parses



    still odd numbers with PE...so i'm thinking there is something seriously wrong with it.



    i did almost 20 tests with no weird results until i bought the PE aa



    i was going to try to do the OOW DI aa parse this weekend but i dont think ill bother until we figure out what is going on with the PE aa


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  22. #182
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    Ask Kavhok to check it out, this is too tricky for us to figure out just by parsing, I think.


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  23. #183
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    can you provide an updated graph?


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  24. #184
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    My graph on the first page includes all the data points. It doesn't have best fit lines, but you can clearly see that PE actually made the mitigation worse in all but 1 data point.


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  25. #185
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    Thanks Zonn, I linked your graph in the very first post so all the data is easy to find. Hope you don't mind <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">


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  26. #186
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    Not at all, I'm trying to keep that single image updated as you post more data. So, it will stay as current as I keep it basically.


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  27. #187
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    Zonn can you modify your graph legend to show:





    *black = no defensive AA

    *blue = CS3

    *red = CS3 & ID5

    *purple = CS3 & ID5 & PE



    to avoid any confusion about what the graph lines mean




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  28. #188
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>still odd numbers with PE...so i'm thinking there is something seriously wrong with it.<hr></blockquote>



    It wouldnt be the first time SOE programmers transposed numbers or forgot a sign. And if the problem is with the code, then all classes with ID/PE are likely affected by it.



    PE should give an additional 2%.



    From the parses so far, it appears that PE is reducing the ID portion of the avoidance AAs.


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  29. #189
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    Modified mit plot a bit. It doesn't explain why, but it's fun to look at.










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  30. #190

    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    Ned, can you please ask Khav to double check the avoidance code portion of PE too?


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  31. #191
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    be interesting to see how the OOW defensives parse out as well. But I think Ned has done enough for us :P


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  32. #192
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    Great work everyone especially nedrom, don't know what it all means just yet <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">




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  33. #193
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    I think it means that the nerf is revoked and we are actually a little better off than before. It also means that the PE aa is broken and people who bought it have been screwing themselves over.








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  34. #194
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    Told ya defensive AAs weren't worth it. To bad it took Ned to discover it was the PE making them worthless.



    Jesus, how many years has this been in the game?





    Soon as you finish defense Ned, best start parsing offensive AAs it's obvious no one has, yet.


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  35. #195
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    wow, total weakness on PE AA, it really seems to hurt us by small amount that increases as AC gets higher #=X


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  36. #196
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    Default pathetic

    Wow ... PE hurting instead of helping .... what a feking joke. WTB a design/dev team with a clue Thanks for the parse work.



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  37. #197
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    Default Re: pathetic

    It's probably actually a programming error, not a Dev issue. One symbol in a line of code ...






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  38. #198
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    Default Re: pathetic

    I still don't have any updates, I spoke to him last night but we're not sure what is going on.


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  39. #199
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    Default Re: pathetic

    we need to take this to the boards with our data and present it on the monk foums i think this is definatly a top 10 that should get fixed




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  40. #200
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    Default Re: pathetic

    PE is not just for Monks, every class that uses it could be affected.



    there is allready a thread there as well:



    eqforums.station.sony.com...ge.id=9262



    plus the devs know about it, no need to pester them, im sure we'll figure it out, they cant have multiple melee classes wanting a refund it will just make everyone unhappy


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