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Thread: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

  1. #121
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    I don't think that fits. That was my initial assumption and that's what I did to arrive at a softcap increase of +60.



    If it did work that way, the CS3 line would parallel the post-cap noAA line on my plot.


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  2. #122
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>If it did work that way, the CS3 line would parallel the post-cap noAA line on my plot. <hr></blockquote>



    It is isn't it? we're working backwards going from high AC to low. Is your line ploting the new points as we go or making a new line?



    PS. please add a key for the lines.


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    The Moltenfists 15 minutes.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=evi lhomer@monklybusiness43508>Evil Homer</A>* at: 5/26/05 9:50 am

  3. #123
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    While Nedrom is indeed working backwards, the lines are still being plotted as (maxdmg-mindmg)/(avgdmg-mindmg) against raw AC. If the only effect the CS3 had was to raise the soft cap, the CS3 line should be a straight line also, with a gradient identical to that of the noAA line, but have a higher intercept. As it stands, it is far from a straight line - so much so that I haven't even tried to draw a trend line to it.



    I have added the line key to the last plot.



    EDIT: Excel file used is here.


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=anc aglon>Ancaglon</A>* at: 5/26/05 11:12 am

  4. #124
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    Looks good to me. Thanks for the work.



    I see the higher soft cap from CS3 and the diminished returns of the AC over the Cap due to CS3 then it proceeds as expected...



    Old non-CS3 parse showing the diminished return of the AC sooner than the CS3 parse due to the rAC 100 points being so far appart.


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  5. #125
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    Even if that 200 rAC / CS3 point is 'really' on the pre-cap line, the rest of the CS3 line doesn't make much sense; it actually appears to make the return on AC over that cap worse for a fair sized increase in raw AC, before picking up again. It 'feel's as if it's adding or subtracting a constant factor somewhe on the inverse of this plot.




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  6. #126
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    added 1010 ac parse



    from what i see there is no difference with or without cs3 for +100 rac



    so...under the cap, cs3 doesn't help you, all it does is raise the cap


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    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ned rom2004>Nedrom2004</A> at: 5/26/05 1:13 pm


  7. #127
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    Thanks for the work Ned.



    Looking at the 1482 ac tests shows perfectly what I tought, CS 3 (and mostlikely my ID 5 as well) does nothing for me and every other monk below 1500 ac. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=":o">



    Sky


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  8. #128
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    old news


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dem andred>Demandred</A> at: 5/27/05 2:04 am

  9. #129
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Looking at the 1482 ac tests shows perfectly what I tought, CS 3 (and mostlikely my ID 5 as well) does nothing for me and every other monk below 1500 ac.<hr></blockquote>



    i am confused how you came to this conclusion.



    400 1482

    Min % = 22.47

    Max % = 9.55

    Avg = 259.66



    400CS3 1482

    Min % = 23.81

    Max % = 8.92

    Avg = 254.06



    how is that not an improvement from CS3?


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  10. #130
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    Thanks Demandred.



    I do not want to compete, please try the Homer formula of mitigation (Total#hits*max hit/actual damage * 100) and see what that does to both test cases?



    I see rAC of 187 non-CS3 and rAC 212 CS3.



    Thanks.


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  11. #131
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    sky the only place where there is zero improvement is at 100 worn ac, displayed 1010


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  13. #133
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    The CS3 data still looks a bit iffy to me - it "feels" as if either the mitigation at 200 rAC is too good, or the mitigation at 300 rAC is too poor.



    Personally, I rather suspect the former, because then the lines would continue to converge on the previous intersection that I identified as the cap (118 iksar/150 human by my calculations), and that it is the SLOPE of the line that is the significant factor. This is interesting because it is open-ended, and scales up, more so than a fixed boost in the cap. It could then indeed be '10% better mitigation' than CS0 as it "says on the tin".



    For another reason, it's been previously stated by Developers that, if you are below the cap, the AAs won't help. In the past, we've assumed that the AAs raise the cap, but that seems contradictory.



    IF my ideas are correct, then practically every (main) monk 65+ will be at or over the Softcap already (just 118 rAC for an Iksar at 65) -- so the AA's will actually have value for every one of those monks.



    The only way to be sure of that line is to re-do those 200 and 300 rAC CS3 parses - which only Nedrom can currently do... I appreciate this is eating into his play-time, but this could certainly help sort this one out once and for all.



    (Even a single 250 rAC parse would help a lot, if the gear set permits...).


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  14. #134
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>please try the Homer formula of mitigation (Total#hits*max hit/actual damage * 100) and see what that does to both test cases?<hr></blockquote>

    It's quite possible you get 187 rAC etc with this formula. But since min hits are not in there, this would be a different definition of mitigation which assumes 0 as min hit.


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  15. #135
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    The AC cap without CS3 is ~1200AC at 65 and it is ~1260AC with CS3 at 65.



    Is this true? If so how is it we actually have a lower CS3 cap now than we had when thepp did his parses or were thepps parses *that* bad? I'm betting on the latter for CS3 data.


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  16. #136
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    Brodda Thep had ID5 as well, I believe -- "all PoP AAs" has to include that.


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  17. #137
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The CS3 data still looks a bit iffy to me - it "feels" as if either the mitigation at 200 rAC is too good, or the mitigation at 300 rAC is too poor.<hr></blockquote> Well it's there and you can't really ignore it. Don't forget that even with a 2500 sample size the mean error is roughly 1% (in the mitigation plot) with a 95% CI of +-2%.


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  18. #138
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The only way to be sure of that line is to re-do those 200 and 300 rAC CS3 parses - which only Nedrom can currently do... I appreciate this is eating into his play-time, but this could certainly help sort this one out once and for all.<hr></blockquote>



    I did 90 minute parses of all tests, that is long enough to even out the parse. Even Frodlin and Emil recommended 90 minute parse.



    Unfortuantely I cannot redo these parses, i'm allready working on ID5 parses to post as well.



    if you want the raw log im more than happy to send it to you but i doubt that will help





    edit: added 1798 ID5 parse


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    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ned rom2004>Nedrom2004</A> at: 5/26/05 2:57 pm


  19. #139
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Quote:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Looking at the 1482 ac tests shows perfectly what I tought, CS 3 (and mostlikely my ID 5 as well) does nothing for me and every other monk below 1500 ac.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------







    i am confused how you came to this conclusion.



    400 1482

    Min % = 22.47

    Max % = 9.55

    Avg = 259.66



    400CS3 1482

    Min % = 23.81

    Max % = 8.92

    Avg = 254.06



    how is that not an improvement from CS3?<hr></blockquote>





    At 1482 ac the taken dps is:



    123,69 without CS 3

    124,17 with CS 3



    So where does this show that one mitigates 10% better with CS 3?



    Even with the avg hit of 259 / 254 I do not see a 10% better mitigation.



    Sky








    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sky kungfu>SkyKungfu</A> at: 5/26/05 3:03 pm

  20. #140
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    sky has a point...but i suck at math so <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">


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  21. #141
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Well it's there and you can't really ignore it. Don't forget that even with a 2500 sample size the mean error is roughly 1% (in the mitigation plot) with a 95% CI of +-2%.<hr></blockquote>

    Be that as it may, fitting a straight line to include the rAC 200 point is clearly not reasonable - look at the r-squared value for that fit vs the fit for rAC 300 and upwards - so extrapolating a fit as you have there makes as little sense.



    Nedrom - Okay. It's a pity, but ID5 is a lot more relevent to compare with Brodda Thep's stuff than just CS3.



    Oh, and does anyone recall - is PE also supposed to help with CS?


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  22. #142
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    PE does yes


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  23. #143
    SkyKungfu
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    Was just thinking about it from a different point of view.



    Lets say without any mitigation he would have hit us for 310 every time. Now, at 1482 ac, we mitigate (on average) 50 every hit. So we end up hit for 260 (actually 259, just for easier numbers) every time.



    Now with CS 3 we get 10% better mitigation, 10% of 50 = 5. So we mitigate 5 points more on every hit (average). This way we end up at 255 (254).



    I don't like the idea, but it might work that way ...



    Or would we get hit for max every time without mitigating?



    470 - 260 = 210

    10% = 21

    Avg hit with CS 3 should be 239 (238 ) than. The difference might be because ac is such a weird number containing agi, avoidance and god knows what else? Sigh.



    Sky


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sky kungfu>SkyKungfu</A> at: 5/26/05 3:38 pm

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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Be that as it may, fitting a straight line to include the rAC 200 point is clearly not reasonable - look at the r-squared value for that fit vs the fit for rAC 300 and upwards - so extrapolating a fit as you have there makes as little sense.<hr></blockquote>



    Well I used least square method and the result looks reasonable to me. Did you check the mitigation plot?


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  25. #145
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    added 1639 ID5 parse


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  26. #146
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    I'm going to keep my graph on the first page updated as new data points come in. I tried adding some best fit lines to the data, but it got a little bit too busy. For now I'm satisfied with a raw data plot with lines. You can still see the damage trending down with just that.


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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3

    added 1482 id5 parse


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  28. #148
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    added 1325 ID5 parse


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  29. #149
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    Ned, its time to change your sig now mate. lazy doesnt cut it, thanks for all the work <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eek.gif ALT=":eek">


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  30. #150
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Ned, its time to change your sig now mate. lazy doesnt cut it, thanks for all the work <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eek.gif ALT=":eek"> <hr></blockquote>



    i put lazy in there cuz i didnt like having to FD between Dragon Fang clicks before they removed the aggro =)






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  31. #151
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    added 1167 id5 parse



    if i change the order, its interesting to note the following:





    Raw AC AC Min % Max % Ave

    0 853 4.08% 37.55% 360.19

    <span style="color:blue;">100 1010 12.46 18.20 302.44</span>

    100 1010 12.73 18.79 301.83

    <span style="color:red;">100 1010 13.05 18.41 301.40</span>

    200 1167 16.35 14.81 283.29

    <span style="color:blue;">200 1167 18.33 12.34 271.20</span>

    300 1325 19.10 11.67 269.88

    <span style="color:red;">200 1167 19.48 9.70 267.03</span>

    <span style="color:blue;">300 1325 20.12 11.49 265.62</span>

    400 1482 22.47 9.55 259.66

    <span style="color:blue;">400 1482 23.81 8.92 254.06</span>

    500 1639 23.87 8.35 250.20

    <span style="color:red;">300 1325 24.87 8.78 247.58</span>

    <span style="color:red;">400 1482 25.86 7.32 243.02</span>

    600 1798 25.71 7.28 242.67

    <span style="color:blue;">500 1639 26.35 7.64 242.55</span>

    <span style="color:blue;">600 1798 28.41 6.32 234.29</span>

    <span style="color:red;">500 1639 30.11 6.00 229.45</span>

    <span style="color:red;">600 1798 31.47 4.68 224.32</span>



    if you dont have high AC, getting the AA's allows you to mitigate like someone with higher AC with no AA's



    obviously having both helps in the long run...


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    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ned rom2004>Nedrom2004</A> at: 5/27/05 7:15 am


  32. #152
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    --removed graph--


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dem andred>Demandred</A> at: 5/28/05 7:14 pm

  33. #153
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    To me, it seems that CS3 "just" makes your AC worth more after the cap (gradient is 21% steeper with CS3 over noAA .... maybe coincidentally, 10% squared = 1.1**2 = 1.21) , while ID5 raises the cap and may make your AC worth more (ID5 line is 8% steeper than CS3 line). However, both lines are quite 'noisy' (r-squared values are not very tight for the CS3 and ID5 lines compared to the post-cap noAA line).





    The upshot of all this is however as Nedrom stated. For example, having 300 raw AC and ID5 lets you take damage about as well as someone with 550 raw AC and no AA's.


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=anc aglon>Ancaglon</A>* at: 5/27/05 3:53 am

  34. #154
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    defensive aa's only raise the cap, that is all, they dont change the return of ac



    added 1010 ac id5 parse...as you see, once again 1010 is the same from no aa to cs3 to id5



    the only thing i dont understand is why is the damage jumpy....and not solid and consistant like when i had no aa used at all...maybe that is the reason why we see inconsistancies with the damage we take even after the changes?


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  35. #155
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    It's jumpy because components of the sum work like the "guard" spells do. There's only a chance your mitigation will be better. That's my opinion of course.


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  36. #156
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr> defensive aa's only raise the cap, that is all, they dont change the return of ac<hr></blockquote>

    The fact that the gradients of the lines differ significantly argues otherwise.



    Any plans for a parse with the GoD defensive AAs? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">


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  37. #157
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    as soon as i get some more aa's from Kavhok I'll post the DI OOW Mitigation aa's...but i'm working on PE right now



    and i asked, Kavhok told me that all the aa's do is raise the cap


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    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ned rom2004>Nedrom2004</A> at: 5/27/05 12:37 pm


  38. #158
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    Just wondering, to you plan any parses of Shielding once all AA deffensive abilities are capped? I'd be interested in say 10% and 20% parses to get an idea what type of impact it has.


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  39. #159
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    ill ask if i can do that too


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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 and ID5

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Just wondering, to you plan any parses of Shielding once all AA deffensive abilities are capped? I'd be interested in say 10% and 20% parses to get an idea what type of impact it has.<hr></blockquote> But we already know what shielding does.


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