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Thread: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

  1. #41
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    Would using a MOB with a known HIGH atk rating and then upping the ac rating on the monk until it it is obvious it has met the atk and then doing the division from where the ac is and where we know the atk is give any new information? I'm not entirely sure that is coherent and I was never big into the parses when I was playing anyway, but I was reading through and I wasn't sure if that would be a better way to do this.


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  2. #42
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    If they're willing to copy a character to test and allow them to parse, why won't they just publish the AC softcap numbers?


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  3. #43
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr> If they're willing to copy a character to test and allow them to parse, why won't they just publish the AC softcap numbers?<hr></blockquote>



    If I'm not mistaken, it looks like some people enjoyed crunching the numbers themselves.



    It's a game, some people never do anything but bazaar, some only tradeskill, some crunch numbers, some get gear, some level, some AA...



    EverQuest is one Hell of a good game with a ton, a frigging ton of content and things to do. I use to think they were lieing when they said, you don't have to, they weren't.



    What they should have said is, "Have you tried one of the many other aspects of the game?"




    </p>

  4. #44
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    AC Ave hit Decrease AC Increase neg av dmg per AC

    853 360.19 n/a n/a

    1010 301.83 58.36 157 0.3717

    1167 283.29 18.54 157 0.1180

    1325 269.88 13.41 158 0.0848

    1482 259.66 10.22 157 0.0650

    1639 250.2 9.46 157 0.0602

    1798 242.67 7.53 159 0.0473



    ok so 100 "worn" ac gives a shown increase of roughly 157 ac.



    The Softcap appears to be "around" ( not exactly ) the 1167 Ac mark as from then onwards the average hit decreases relatively steady ( although ever decreasing ) ammount per 100 AC.



    As the Average hit decrease per ac is constantly dropping im not sure that they can say "you get a set return of real AC for shown exp over the softcap". If that was true the negative damage per AC gained should be a constant figure, but these parses show that the more AC you gain you constantly get a lower return for it, so the return for AC gained seems to be fairly fluid on these figures.



    I know the RNG would create a variable in the results, but as each set of figures is consistantly lower I think it can be taken from this that the return for worn ac constantly decreases, rather than as advertised being set at a constant figure i.e 1/40 or 1/10 etc etc.



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  5. #45
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    The Softcap appears to be "around" ( not exactly ) the 1167 Ac mark



    We already knew this was the softcap, pre any recent mitigation changes.



    Since then they were supposed to have increased the softcap and the return, then again last patch increased the return yet again.



    So.. What exactly did they do 1st patch, since it's looking like the current softcap is the same as it ever was.


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  6. #46
    SkyKungfu
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I think it can be taken from this that the return for worn ac constantly decreases, rather than as advertised being set at a constant figure i.e 1/40 or 1/10 etc etc.<hr></blockquote>



    Maybe the return of AC is consistant but the dmg mitigation that you get for it in return is decreasing = the higher you get the more AC is needed for the same amount of mitigation increase. Just a tought.



    Sky


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  7. #47
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>If I'm not mistaken, it looks like some people enjoyed crunching the numbers themselves.<hr></blockquote>

    And no caster does? They put all the information in SPDAT because anyone that plays a caster is not going to be interested in running parses? Obviously, some of the information in SPDAT needs to be there to implement client functionality (e.g. mana cost) but is there any reason to put something like fizzle adjustment in there other than so it doesn't have to be parsed?






    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kyd aan>Kydaan</A> at: 5/14/05 6:08 pm

  8. #48
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    Based on Zonn's graph, the monk AC soft cap is somewhere between 100 and 200 raw AC. If you eliminate the lines (since they are not data points) and instead extrapolate a best fit curve, it looks to me that the AC soft cap is just under 150 raw AC. This is higher than the 118 raw AC soft cap pre-April 12 (there is still no indication that cap ever changes with level) but appears to be lower than the 163 raw AC cap pre-PoP.



    The exact soft cap won't be found unless that test is repeated at 5 or 10AC intervals from 100 to 200 raw AC.



    Sear

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  9. #49
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    Cant forget this is the softcap for level 65 so 70 will be higher.


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  10. #50
    Ascendant Ashenhand
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    Ok, I still believe we are getting a better return then 10 to 1 for AC.



    I looked a little closer at the data rather then "eyeballing" the

    graph like I did on my first post.



    In my opinion to tell the return over the cap we have to compare avg hit below cap to avg hit after cap. If 100 ac makes a 10 point change before cap, and a 5 point change after cap then we are getting a 1 for 2 return, not a 1 for 20. Other people may find other methodologies better.



    The following lists the change in avg punch damage (I excluded kick and bash) as AC changes.



    First 100 58.36

    Second 100 18.54

    Third 100 13.41

    Fourth 100 10.22

    Fifth 100 9.46

    Sith 100 7.53 (not as much so don't join the dark side)



    Ok the change is not totally linear but this is to be expected when above the attack value of the mob.



    First change is 58.46 So we use that as bar for how much change we would LIKE to see. Second change is 18.54 this category part of it is likely pre softcap and part post softcap so not as useful for determing due to granularity. The average of the other 4 is about 10. This means AC for 100 is approximately 1/6th as effective after the softcap as before (58/10).



    Conclusion we have approximately a 1 in 6 return on AC above the cap. More data will give better results.



    And Nedrom, Ugle does have a point that differnt mobs will give differnt hit distributions. If [warrior troll 16786] parsed on orc pawns he could say we mitigated almost every hit down to minimum same as a warrior would. While it would be a pain I still think it would be informative to see how "testmonk" parsed on a RS trash mob, and a KYV from KT.



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    Going for AC before AC was cool.

  11. #51
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    For a quick estimate of the effectiveness of AC over the softcap, you can compare the slope of the line from 0-100 against the slope from 200-600. Doing this quick calculation in excel I get the slope from 0-100 is 5.75 times larger than from 200-600. So, I agree the 1/6th number is a good estimate for effectiveness over the softcap.


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  12. #52
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    Default Whoa...

    Well, I'm happy with the numbers. I'm seeing the softcap at about 187 RAW AC and the return (an average I like the other numbers people have posted better) over the AC is about 1/14 on average.



    The 160ish number seems low. Please help me understand how you get that when the jump from 0 - 100 and the jump from 101 - 200 are closer than farther, when compared to the other slopes?


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  13. #53
    Ascendant Stone Fist Ancaglon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    I'd generally expect diminishing returns on increasing AC even without the cap. That is to say, I'd expect the average damage taken per hit to fall off a lot less with increasing AC - a 1/X form of curve, as it were, approaching the Damage Bonus asymptotically.



    My best feel for the form of the equation is



    AvDPS = DB + ( Power / MitAC ) * 20 * DI



    where



    MitAC = WornAC + OtherFactors (eg Defense bonus, Monk Bonus).



    Power = 'hitting power' of the Mob (what we sometimes refer to as ATK, but that's mixing accuracy and damage). This may well be independent of the DB and DI of the mob. So, some mobs may hit for a large range of values (high DI) but once you have a decent amount of AC those hits will mostly be for minimum damage - hence low 'Power'. Another mob might have a small DB, but may need insane AC to offset its' high Power.



    Doing simple straight line intercepts on the 0-100 raw AC range vs 200-300 gives a figure of 111 raw. I don't mean that this is the softcap, just that, FOR THIS MOB, increasing AC much beyond that point won't have as much effect (effective softcap around there). For a mob with higher 'Power', the equivalent figure may be much higher.



    Anyone spot any obvious problems with this idea?




    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=anc aglon>Ancaglon</A>* at: 5/16/05 5:16 pm

  14. #54
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    ancaglon you make my eyes crossed, i just like to bash stuff <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">


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  15. #55
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    No obvious problems that I can see.



    What I did was take what had already been done here and compared to ned's new parses.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    CLS - Class

    AC - AC with virtue

    SHLD - Amount of shielding on items

    AVD - Amount of avoidance on items

    DB - Damage Bonus of the mob. This is modified by shielding.

    DI - Damage interval of the mob. This is modified by warrior innate 5% reduction of the DI.

    MIT% - 0% mitigation would be max hits every single time. 100% mitigation would be min hits every single time.

    ATKS - Total number of punch attacks

    HIT% - Hits that landed divided by total punch attacks

    MISS% - Misses divided by hits that landed plus misses not including blocks, parries, dodges, or ripostes

    BLK% - Blocks divided by total punch attacks

    DDG% - Dodges divided by total punch attacks

    PRY% - Parries divided by total punch attacks

    RIP% - Ripostes divided by total punch attacks

    DMG - Avg damage taken per punch attack, basically AVG * HIT%.

    <hr></blockquote>



    CLS AC SHLD AVD DB DI AVG MIT% ATKS HIT% MISS% BLK% DDG% PRY% RIP% | DMG

    MNK 1854 2% 60 100 22.1 311.0 55.0 3476 41.1 47.2 12.0 5.4 NA 4.7 | 127.8

    *MNK 1635 2% 60 100 22.1 313.2 54.5 2923 42.0 46.8 11.6 4.9 NA 4.7 | 131.5

    MNK 1331 0% 0 102 22.1 317.4 54.0 2550 46.8 42.1 10.4 4.5 NA 4.4 | 148.4

    MNK 1063 0% 0 102 22.1 344.4 52.5 2883 46.7 41.0 11.9 4.4 NA 4.6 | 160.8









    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    As you can see, at 1331 I mitigated nearly the same as at 1854 ac. The change was miniscule. Here is where we see a 'soft cap' on AC. I always thought the softcap would depend solely on the mob you were tanking. I thought you could keep piling on AC unitl you got to a point where the majority of hits were for min and thus you had your diminishing returns. It turns out that soft caps are on a per class basis. No matter how high my ac gets I do not think I could ever mitigate like a 1300ac warrior.<hr></blockquote>



    Call me crazy or stupid or what ever but all I did was take the monk #s for AC and hit% and plot them against the new parses.



    Edit: okay it looks good.



    So I took:

    AC and hit%



    1854 41.1



    1635 42.0



    1331 46.8



    1063 46.7



    Slap that in a table and graph it with the new numbers as a different line.



    853 47.96



    1010 47.46



    1167 46.69



    1325 46.89



    1462 49.05



    1639 48.27



    1798 48.98



    Okay the old parses had shielding at 1854 and 1635. Shielding is good.



    So we have 1331 and 1063 left for comparison and compared to 1167 and 1325 we look about right.



    The mob Ned was testing was higher level and Ned didn't have Virtue which I think is calculated as an addtion to the AC softcap as are the Defensive AAs.



    So what do I end up seeing? In short, somewhere just before 1325 we hit the cap.


    Me.

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    Frodlin, Warrior Class Correspondent Who knew what was best for Monks.

    The Moltenfists 15 minutes.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=evi lhomer@monklybusiness43508>Evil Homer</A>* at: 5/17/05 9:24 am

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    bleh, sitting at about 1550 raid buffed, was hoping i could put off oow mig aa's for a bit. guess not =P


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  17. #57
    Ascendant Stone Fist Ancaglon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    I'm really not sure about the methodology there -- it doesn't look at the mitigation part of it. How about graphing "MIT%"? For Nedrom's data that'd be (AvDMG-MinDMG)/(MaxDMG-MinDMG)*100%.

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The mob Ned was testing was higher level<hr></blockquote>

    The 'test dummy' was quoted at 60, Brodda Thep's parses were on a HoH Valorian Guard at 62.






    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=anc aglon>Ancaglon</A>* at: 5/17/05 10:09 am

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    KK



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>(AvDMG-MinDMG)/(MaxDMG-MinDMG)*100%<hr></blockquote>



    Using mitigation% would be: (Actual damage)/(total number of hits * maxdamage) * 100 = mitigation%



    That's a question.


    Me.

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  19. #59
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    I actually got that backward, but from the Brodda Thep description:<blockquote>Quote:<hr>MIT% - 0% mitigation would be max hits every single time. 100% mitigation would be min hits every single time.<hr></blockquote>



    That means mapping the average damage (of hits taken, thus removes effect of avoidance) into the min-max range. Since Shielding appears only to affect the DB (damage bonus) part, MIT% should be independent of Shielding as well as Avoidance.



    That makes the formula



    MIT% = (MaxDMG-AvDMG)/(MaxDMG-MinDMG) x 100%



    This is pretty much directly comparable with Nedrom's parses, except that Brodda's parses only list displayed AC -- and Agility makes a significant difference to that, although it doesn't appear to make ANY difference to Mitigation.



    This leads me to a question for Nedrom: what race was the lvl 65 monk used in this test? Given that your normal character is Iksar, I expect the test monk was also Iksar. I am also reasonably sure Brodda Thep's monk was Human. If the races weren't the same, then we do have the complicating factor of the Iksar AC bonus, which is believed to be a Mitigation bonus....



    Does anyone recall for sure? eg do they have Brodda's Magelo number somewhere?


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=anc aglon>Ancaglon</A>* at: 5/17/05 1:43 pm

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    Alright then.



    We shoudl take our paths and see where they lead.



    I believe my calculation for mitigation is correct.



    100% mitigation is avoidance to me.



    Therefore I remove all zeros.



    So I only count the hits = H

    Total damage. = TD



    Now how much could those total hits been for? # of hits * max damage= total max damage possible or TMDp



    Therefore:

    TD/(H*MD)*100 = %damage mitigated





    For example:

    853AC



    986,976 total damage

    max hit was 471

    hits was 3005



    986,976/(471*3005) * 100 = %



    986,976/1,415,355 *100 = 69% of the maximum possible or 31% of maximum damage was mitigated.





    amazingly ave hit 328.44/maxhit 471 * 100 = 69.9????


    Me.

    Grabbit Allworth, Rogue Class Correspondent Who knew what was best for Monks.

    Frodlin, Warrior Class Correspondent Who knew what was best for Monks.

    The Moltenfists 15 minutes.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=evi lhomer@monklybusiness43508>Evil Homer</A>* at: 5/17/05 2:54 pm

  21. #61
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    The problem with that formula Homer is that it is not independent of the mobs minimum hit. You could test against two mobs with the exact same atk on a tank with the exact same AC and get different numbers for "mitigation %".



    The effect of AC in fiddling with the distribution of hits is what should be quantified, and factors like mob minimum and maximum hits should be normalized out.


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  22. #62
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    I have seen assumptions that the softcap increases just by leveling, but only saw one claim based on logged information from Thepp on TSW.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr> 10-31-2003 #6

    Brodda Thep

    Registered User





    "Quote:

    I wish I would have parsed the DPS my warrior takes in BoT. I leveled him in bot almost exclusively from 60-65 with very little change in his gear."







    I did keep parses with no equipment changes at all.



    Lvl 60 in ssra from a shissar taskmaster (entire lvl)

    Defensive

    40.6 hit %

    176 avg hit



    Offensive

    35 average hit

    Misses were turned off.

    55.2 punch dps



    lvl 61 in ssra from a shissar taskmaster (entire lvl)

    Defensive

    41.4 hit %

    187 avg hit



    Offensive

    36 avg hit

    57.5 punch dps (got 1 more to damage bonus at 61)



    lvl 62 in ssra from a shissar taskmaster (somewhat small sample)

    Defensive

    39.9 hit %

    191 avg hit



    Offensive

    37 avg hit

    57.7 punch dps



    Same buffs for all PoN parses.

    lvl 62 in PoN tanking a horror hobgoblin (300,000 dmg taken)

    Defensive

    49.4 hit %

    260 avg hit



    Offensive

    54 avg hit

    90.4 punch dps



    lvl 63 in PoN tanking a horror hobgoblin (700,000+ dmg taken)

    Defensive

    51.1 hit %

    241 avg hit



    Offensive

    56 avg hit

    94.2 punch dps (increase in damage table)



    lvl 64 in PoN pulling a horror hobgoblin (500,000+ dmg taken)

    Defensive

    50.8 hit %

    252 avg hit



    Offensive

    56 avg hit

    96.6 punch dps (increase in damage bonus)



    To me these indicate that, beyond damage table increases and damage bonus increases, I didn't do better damage or tank better. No where NEAR the difference you would see going from 55-60.



    Of course my defensive avg hits on the goblins are pretty messy due to the fact that I wasn't tanking all the time and pulled with stone stance a lot.



    If there are increases, then it is incredibly small. On the order of single percentages more than likely. ( (250 + 65)/(250 + 60) perhaps? ) At any rate, I highly doubt anyone that says they tanked noticeably better going from 60-65.<hr></blockquote>



    I don't remember seeing any real parses of defense from 51 - 60 anywhere not involving AA's, so the question of the softcap increasing through these levels is also dependant on the removal of the skill cap at 50.



    Then the question becomes; does the defense skill actuially increase the softcap or just change how raw ac is calculated for displayed ac?



    I would think the best way to look at it is the softcap doesn't change past 60 unless you buy AA or use a shield.



    Kavhok stated earlier that a level 51 monk was at the softcap with 163 raw item ac and 150 agi before the original nerf, which is where monks are supposed to be now.




    </p>

  23. #63
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    OK here is a parse 87 minutes long in Riftseekers with me tanking. I had a cleric hitting me with elixir before the pull, and casting CH just before i started tanking each mob. Druid was providing spam heals over the top, and my shaman was spot healing in places where the druid/cleric heal delays overlapped. My AC was 1639, total buffed hps just under 10k. We could not find another real tank, so I stepped up to fill in. We had to choose the group according to that and so included the druid to help keep me up. Was it comfortable ? A quick extract from the log, it seems shaman regen is good for something. No heals hit me while i was unconscious, luckily the chimera didnt either for a couple seconds......



    [Wed May 18 01:38:42 2005] a companion chimera was hit by non-melee for 12 points of damage.

    [Wed May 18 01:38:42 2005] A companion chimera hits YOU for 1237 points of damage.

    [Wed May 18 01:38:42 2005] a companion chimera was hit by non-melee for 12 points of damage.

    [Wed May 18 01:38:42 2005] A companion chimera hits YOU for 725 points of damage.

    [Wed May 18 01:38:42 2005] A companion chimera tries to hit YOU, but misses!

    [Wed May 18 01:38:42 2005] You have been knocked unconscious!

    [Wed May 18 01:38:43 2005] You cannot see your target.

    [Wed May 18 01:38:43 2005] You are conscious again!

    [Wed May 18 01:38:43 2005] Your target is too far away, get closer!

    [Wed May 18 01:38:43 2005] You punch a companion chimera for 41 points of damage.

    [Wed May 18 01:38:43 2005] Vtik bashes a companion chimera for 32 points of damage.

    [Wed May 18 01:38:44 2005] cleric has healed you for 2861 points of damage.

    [Wed May 18 01:38:44 2005] Your wounds fade.








    Wolvurene

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  24. #64
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    I had a few log files from December 2004 when I was dual-boxing my Monk/Shaman in Grieg's End courtyard. The average hit on my 65 Monk with CA1, CS1 and 1204-1240 AC (they dispell quite a bit) was 115 and peanuts. I had FA on, so all combat stats were maxed.



    I did the same camp over the weekend. Level 52ish mobs, same place, same gear, same level, same AC, same AAs. The buffs were also the same give or take some dispelling. After almost exactly 1 AA worth of killing, I parsed my logs again using Yalp. The average hit was 116 and peanuts, so basically no change.



    I should have checked the hit distribution, but it was late at night and Yalp was erroring out on me, so I stopped. I then flew back to the West Coast, so any further analysis will have to wait until I go back East. The only conclusion for now is that if your gear is as bad as mine (I had very little play time for a long time for RL reasons), don't go in expecting too much from the unnerf.


    Scalia, 65 Monk




    Scabon, 65 Shaman</p>

  25. #65
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    Since you have so many dmg intervals, im guessing you had vie line on, which makes the parse more or less unuseable.



    Nice job Ned, if I can find the time, ill check how the return is from 2000 to 2400, im guessing it flatlines somewhat after 1800 though.


    </p>

  26. #66
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    vie for me when filling in as tank in RS is required, parsing is something that is just happening. If youu have 2k ac go parse there and post please.


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  27. #67
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The effect of AC in fiddling with the distribution of hits is what should be quantified, and factors like mob minimum and maximum hits should be normalized out. <hr></blockquote>



    In this case there is no need for normalization as the mob is the same and the max and min never change.



    Distribution is the problem?



    Then mitigation is the symptom.



    Regardless I'm just looking for the AC softcap. All I want to do is make a line and see where the line breaks or bends over.



    The line for me at least is bending over at ~ 187raw AC or 1200 -1250 AC.


    Me.

    Grabbit Allworth, Rogue Class Correspondent Who knew what was best for Monks.

    Frodlin, Warrior Class Correspondent Who knew what was best for Monks.

    The Moltenfists 15 minutes.</p>

  28. #68
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Regardless I'm just looking for the AC softcap. All I want to do is make a line and see where the line breaks or bends over.

    The line for me at least is bending over at ~ 187raw AC or 1200 -1250 AC.

    <hr></blockquote>

    Yes it bends over and if it didn't do this we would soon reach a 100% mitigation. I plotted Neds data to mitigation form and it's quite clear the softcap hasn't been reached at 600 raw ac, because if we continue the trend of this curve we would soon end up at warrior mitigation.



    A cool thing to notice is that at around 1800 ac, 100 raw ac corresponds to 2% shielding. Of course I'm not saying ac = shielding because ac has another function aswell, it increases your survivability while shielding only lowers the average dagame taken.





    The staples are aproximate 95% error estimations.












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  29. #69
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    Actually on your grid the softcap is obvious at 100ac...then we receive diminished returns after that. Note how much 0-100 is quite a boost but everything after that is a much smaller increase...that would be our softcap. Looks to be in the 100-150 range most likely.


    <div style="text-align:center">



    My Stuff

    Stone Fist</div></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sam oa79>samoa79</A> at: 5/18/05 3:53 pm

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  30. #70
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    Oops! Thanks Demandred! (If you would can you make 200 on the one curve a zero and have that curve curve over the 0 - 200 curve please?)



    Okay. see how his stick's bend evens out?



    Well you can see and you even noted that that even bend isn't there from 100 - 200 raw AC.



    Now all we do with math is look at the bendiness from 200 -600 and compare that to the bend from 100 - 200.



    No much of a "noticable" bend from 100 - 200 as it is relly just two data points but!



    We can guess where that bend starts by comparing the bends 200 - 600 and 100 -200.



    When i do that in Excel I see the 200 - 600 bending start at 187 raw AC.



    Make any sense?


    Me.

    Grabbit Allworth, Rogue Class Correspondent Who knew what was best for Monks.

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    The Moltenfists 15 minutes.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=evi lhomer@monklybusiness43508>Evil Homer</A>* at: 5/18/05 4:14 pm

  31. #71
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    Makes perfect sense.


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  32. #72
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    Ok well, I guess I wasn't clear enough. A nerfed monk wouldn't see any difference from 1350 to 1800 ac because he reached the so called softcap which in fact more felt like a hard cap because the returns were indeed diminishing. Now they changed the returns at 300 raw ac and because I'm used to the nerf, I guess I still expect a 'hard capped soft cap' so to speak, so I didn't consider a 2% improvement/100 AC, a soft cap :p



    Question though, there are 3 defensive AA's:

    Defensive instincts

    Innate defense

    Combat stability



    What do these things do? Do they change the returns after reaching soft cap? Or do they raise the softcap?



    In any case it would be very interesting to see the lvl 70 (with maxed aa's) version of this parse.


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dem andred>Demandred</A> at: 5/18/05 5:23 pm

  33. #73
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>What do these things do? Do they change the returns after reaching soft cap? Or do they raise the softcap?<hr></blockquote>



    According to Kavhok, they raise the soft cap. (As does using a shield, apparently)



    How much per AA (and if it varies depending on WHICH AA) is open to investigation. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">


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  34. #74
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    Softcap is a return over the cap.



    What we have is real AC value to X number followed by a reduced return on AC over that X.


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  35. #75
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    pls go back to your excel bending


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  36. #76
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Actually on your grid the softcap is obvious at 100ac...then we receive diminished returns after that. Note how much 0-100 is quite a boost but everything after that is a much smaller increase...that would be our softcap. Looks to be in the 100-150 range most likely.<hr></blockquote>

    Actually you didn't read what I said and you see everything in lines while it very well could be a curve or more than two lines with different slopes. Once again, if you continue the trend, 2% / 100 raw AC, this would make a 3k ac monk equal to a knight with same AC (purely hypothetical since 3k AC monks doesnt exist). Now 100 AC for a monk would mean the same as it does for the knight. Since it's hard for a monk to reach more than 2200 ac without giving up other important stats, we have *DRUMROLL* BALANCED THE GAME!!! Do you honestly think SOE would do this intentionally? Me neither!


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  37. #77
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    I'd be astounded if the Softcap for a lvl 65 monk with NO defensive AA is as high as 600 raw, corresponding to 1798 displayed. (My optimistic expectation is that it's about 250 raw AC - about 1200 displayed - and that with the PoP defensive AA, this might hit 350 raw corresponding to about 1400 displayed).



    However, I do agree with some of what Demandred is saying -- that the mitigation curve should indeed be a curve and not a straight line, EVEN IF THERE WERE NO CAP AT ALL. So, finding the actual cap is a tricky exercise in fitting curves.



    Nedrom, any chance you can fill in a few more points in the 150-250 worn range?



    PS: the number fiddling I've been doing with the formulae Magelo uses to calculate AC suggests that the Iksar AC bonus is equivalent to raw AC of (level*2/3): has anyone done any comparisons of this at various levels?




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  38. #78
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    I won't be doing anymore parsing. What I have provided so far should be sufficient to show monks who have no defensive aa and no uber raid gear that AC really does work.


    --

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    Nedrom

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    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ned rom2004>Nedrom2004</A> at: 5/18/05 8:45 pm


  39. #79
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    Default Nope

    It's not a curve at all over the cap. The data points are just too far apart and give the false impression of a curve.



    Over the cap it's linear. It looks like a curve because the return is diminished but the return is linear, it never changes. All that is changing and giving the appearance of a curve is the large amount of AC used to draw the lines.



    So, no. A Monk at 3,000AC would not, could not, ever have the same AC value as a Knight with 3,000AC. There is no curve leading to zero return.



    You can put mommies statistical software away now.



    <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">



    PS. I prefer the approach of someone attempting to make this easy to understand rather than someone attempting to Pontificate and then getting it completely wrong.


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tau zii@monklybusiness43508>Tauzii</A>* at: 5/19/05 7:27 am

  40. #80
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    Default Re: Nope

    No, I think that's a mis-understanding of what the cap is understood to do: that is,



    if AC =< softcap, Effective AC = actual AC

    If AC > softcap, Effective AC = Cap + (actual AC - Cap)*return



    so for example, if the Softcap is at 200 raw AC, and the return over the cap is 1 per 5,

    250 raw ac would be worth 200 + (250-200)*(1/5) = 210 real.

    300 raw ac would be worth 200 + (300-200)*(1/5) = 220 real. 350 raw ac would be worth 200 + (350-200)*(1/5) = 230 real.



    -- that's a straight line, not a curve. I think the 'curves' come from looking at the ratio of attack power to effective AC (which is 'real' AC plus a factor based on defence skill, monk level, and as far as I can tell for Iksar, half the level as an extra bonus). I'll try and post some graphs today.


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