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Thread: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

  1. #201
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    Default Re: pathetic

    Seem to remember when they changed the way the AA's where handled in code a while back the HP part of PE was broken . Prehaps the rest was affected as well but no one thought to check and as this is the first real set of controlled parses done it never came to light...


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  2. #202
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    added some more 500 and 600 rac id5 and pe tests



    /shrug



    going to try to get DI tests done now



    considering PE is only 2% difference on cap increase its possible that either i dont have enough data or my parse is not long enough so the numbers are too close to see a huge difference, plus 2% on the cap is not much



    i can speed up the npc to include more data in the 90 min parse but i doubt this is really a bug just not enough parsing for 2% increase



    ps: the code has been checked and the aa's are stacking fine and the server reports me as getting increased mitigation for every aa, just as an FYI


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  3. #203
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    added some level 70 tests, when those done im going to do DI5 (oow defensive)


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  4. #204
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>considering PE is only 2% difference on cap increase its possible that either i dont have enough data or my parse is not long enough so the numbers are too close to see a huge difference, plus 2% on the cap is not much<hr></blockquote>

    Like I said before you can expect the average hit to vary +-3% from the real mean if you use a sample size of 2500 hits. To decrease this variation to 1.5% you would need 10,000 hits because the error decrease as 1/sqrt(n). The uncertainty of the mean hit may seem high when you consider the huge sample size of 2500. This is because of the huge deviation in the hit distribution (std dev=120 typically or roughly (Max-Min)/2). If our hitdistribution instead had the shape a of a bell curve, with a low deviation, we would only need a sample size of a few hundred hits to get a very accurate estimation of the mean value.



    Anyway, 2500 hits should be ok for what you are trying to do. It was enough to show the difference between CS0 CS3 and ID5. That 2% increase in softcap (ID5->PE), should give a 0,5% increase in mitigation (0.00159*160*0.02=0.5%). The sample size you would need, to 'prove' there's a difference between ID5 and PE, is roughly 200,000 hits. Easy for SOE to simulate, but time consuming for us.


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  5. #205
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    Demandred,



    now that you put it that way, it makes sense.



    i had ~3000 hits for all my parses.



    all my tests now use a hasted NPC so that i get more data within the 90 minutes so that should help, but I'm sure if i ran a 12 hour test we would probably be able to notice that 2% better



    i started a test for di5 when i left this morning so hopefully by the end of the day i'll have at least 2 DI parses for +600 and +500 rac up for you



    as you can see with the level 70 and only cs3/id5/pe there is not much of a gain from simply raising the defense cap


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  6. #206
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    I am curious at what point you guys think we will stop getting noticable returns on AC over the cap ?



    Many think it's dumb, but I have sacraficed a lot of hp ( while still maintain over 11k ) to get my AC / end as high as i can with the augs in my possession. This has gotten me up to a buffed AC of 2632 ( conviction, guard of earth, tribute ac, 115 avoidance, 15 shielding, max AA ).



    Before I farmed the 4 25ac augs and upgraded my earring, I buffed up to roughly 2350 AC. This allowed me to tank RS trash efficiently tossing a CH at roughly 60-65%. Now, 280ac later, I can toss that CH around 40-45% with no worries of a bad round flattening me at all. Very noticable difference in my last 5-6 hour sessions.



    None of this is parsed numbers like you have here / are hunting for. But it's many hours of first hand mbox experience. And what I really want to know is, at what point you think the returns will dimish? For what I do, I've adjusted my standards aug wise, and it's paid off greatly; but I'm wondering if there is a point at which i'll find myself maxed out defensive wise.



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  7. #207
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    afik there is no cap on the softcap so as long as you keep adding ac, the return over cap still works



    i can't tell you how to do it but from the numbers i have on the graph you should be able to determine the next one in the line easily if your a math wiz, but i am not



    when done the di5 parse i can always run a test at 3000 ac and see what happens <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">


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    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ned rom2004>Nedrom2004</A> at: 6/3/05 11:01 am


  8. #208
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    600 1798 25.71 7.28 242.67 --- no AA

    600 1798 28.41 6.32 234.29 --- CS3

    600 1798 31.47 4.68 224.32 --- ID5

    600 1798 32.27 5.79 226.78 --- ID5 #2

    600 1798 31.01 5.59 230.88 --- PE

    600 1798 32.54 5.72 226.86 --- PE #2

    600 1798 33.29 5.63 227.40 --- PE #3

    600 1850 31.90 5.18 226.22 --- Level 70

    600 1850 33.99 4.74 223.42 --- DI5 Level 70 90 min parse

    600 1850 34.06 4.83 221.75 --- DI5 Level 70 ~10 hour parse






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  9. #209
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    Demandred, I understand that and it may be true but going from no AA to CS1 is 2% increase and from CS1 to CS2 is going from a 2% to 5%.



    Could Ned had been lucky on his previous pre-PE parses? Maybe. Or SOE is not looking at the code properly (wouldnt be the first time). As previously mentioned initially PE was screwed up, noticeable mostly from the sta-hp conversion.



    Regardless, the overall parsing data have provided some interesting results. Thank ya Ned.


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  10. #210
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    hehe 10 hour parse, that's nice, 20k hits?



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Could Ned had been lucky on his previous pre-PE parses? Maybe. Or SOE is not looking at the code properly (wouldnt be the first time). As previously mentioned initially PE was screwed up, noticeable mostly from the sta-hp conversion.<hr></blockquote>I'd say with the number of parses he has made so far he has hit a few good ones and a few bad ones (like PE). But atleast it's clear id5>cs3>cs0. Also with Ned's new parses at level 70 there's a significant difference between PE and DI5 at 600 rAC; roughly +2% in mitigation and 5% increase of softcap.


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  11. #211
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

    well it turns out in order for me to get an accurate measure of PE, considering it is only 2% difference, my parses will need to be much larger. I only have about ~3000 swings in the PE parses and i guess i'll need about 100,000+ in order to see the true changes.



    i dont have time to redo all those tests with a larger scale of numbers. statistics shows that the above information can obviously not be as accurate as i had hoped considering a 2% change well...its the difference between cs0 and cs1...and while its not huge, may not always show up in every parse considering the other variables.



    Kavhok checked with me on test server and watched my character as i bought cs3, then id5 then PE and saw that in each occurance my mitigation was reported as being higher by the server.



    i think perhaps we judged the results too early over a 2% mitigation change, so i don't believe it is broken, i just believe that i dont have enough data.



    its just like doing surveys...if you dont have enough data the results may be misleading.



    either way, i should have the DI5 parses done by the end of the weekend.


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  12. #212
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    Default Re: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I am curious at what point you guys think we will stop getting noticable returns on AC over the cap ?<hr></blockquote>



    Without question, AC produces diminishing returns for every AC over 1. A min hit can't go any lower: it's still a min hit. Therefore, the number of hits that further mitigation works on will be lower and lower as you get more and more AC.



    At level 65, 0 AA, 0 raw AC, the test monk was hit for min 4.08%. Therefore, the non-min hits made up 95.92% of the hits. Fast forward to level 70, 600 raw AC, CS, ID, DI and PE AAs. That monk had 65.94% of the hits land above the min hit.



    In the first case, 95.92% of the hits will benefit from further mitigation. In the later case, only 65.94% of the hits will benefit from further mitigation.



    Yes, at some point, when the monk is taking, say, 90+% min hits, AC will cease to matter since almost everything is a min hit already. However, it's safe to say that monks can't get that much AC with current gear fighting blue, experience giving mobs. In fact, a level 70 monk with 1800+ AC fighting a level 20ish mob (Guard Collin and Vallon in WC) only gets hit for min 44.03% of the time (before the monk mitigation changes though). It can't get much greener than that, and yet mitigation was nowhere near the 90+% level.



    Sear


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  13. #213
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

    btw sorry for only 1 hour parse on +500 ac...test server went down and raids are starting so i just posted that, will do a longer one when i can...but it looks like min hit can only get so low on this level 60 mob


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  14. #214
    SkyKungfu
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    Default Re: AC Parse, now with CS3 & ID5 & now PE

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>600 1798 31.47 4.68 224.32 --- ID5

    600 1798 32.27 5.79 226.78 --- ID5 #2

    600 1798 31.01 5.59 230.88 --- PE

    600 1798 32.54 5.72 226.86 --- PE #2

    600 1798 33.29 5.63 227.40 --- PE #3<hr></blockquote>



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Also with Ned's new parses at level 70 there's a significant difference between PE and DI5 at 600 rAC; roughly +2% in mitigation and 5% increase of softcap.<hr></blockquote>



    Hmm somehow I fail to see this increase ...



    Ah sorry, you meant the increase is there with DI 5 being better than PE? I tought you saw somewhere that PE worked =)



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  15. #215
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

    finished DI5 tests



    doing one last test at 2951 AC


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  16. #216
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    Default Re: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

    added 1300 raw ac (2951 displayed) parse



    this shows that even near 3000 AC we reap the benefits


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  17. #217
    SkyKungfu
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    Default Re: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

    Guess AC has really a meaning again for monks. Thanks for the great job and the insane amount of your time investment.



    /bow



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  18. #218
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

    was no sweat, i had season 1 and season 2 of Alias to watch <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> lol



    it is nice though, to know that no matter how much AC we pile on, all of it will be worth it.






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  19. #219
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    Default Re: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

    So now the debate on....



    hp vs ac on gear



    1-2?

    1-4?



    and and what raw ac values do we suggest to buy each tier



    /bow to Ned, you have done us all a great service.




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  20. #220
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    Default Re: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

    HP always better than AC if your in high end because ac wont save you from ae's, dots etc..



    but if your casual and tank often ac is worth it


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  21. #221
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    Default Re: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

    After one grouping Qvic goats last night, with me as the tank and one cleric ch'n with ease, I'm going to stick with my modified value in augs: 25AC aug > than 50HP aug, but NOT > than 50HP/END aug.



    My real time experience with large AC numbers has left me with a smile on the whole change. I only hope our next goal in line brings us as noticable a change. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">


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  22. #222
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    Default Re: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

    Really great work Ned. Any chance to get a Moderator to make your post into a sticky somewhere so it dosen't get lost?


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  23. #223
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    Default Re: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

    From my perspective AC is not worth thinking about and HPs are.



    I don't give my AC a second thought, especially now. While many see this data as meaning AC matters, the way I see it, AC is nice but like everything else in the game it is tiny increments of improvement in exchange for massive additions. /shrug AC will take care of itself.




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  24. #224
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    Zonn can you please update your graph to include DI5?

    www.stasis-guild.com/Miti...Damage.jpg


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  25. #225
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    It's updated


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  26. #226
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    /Bow



    thanks Ned for all that..wow..



    Its kinda strange to read good news..hehe



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  27. #227
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    Q: You said the test mob was hasted. What kind of haste was that?


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  28. #228
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    /say increase melee speed

    kept doing this until he hit faster



    /shrug



    doesnt affect anything but the rate at which i took damage


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  29. #229
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    Seeing this data is a real treat. However, I'd give a whole pile of platinum to see a few of some of those same tests redone with a warrior, and a paladin.


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  30. #230
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    Default lol

    wont happen <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">


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  31. #231
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    Default Re: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

    I think I read on the EQlive boards that the aa's affected soft caps values, but only when you were at or above that value for your level. (softcaps changes by level so a 70 monk needed to reach a higher AC value than a 50 monk, the part I wasn't sure on was were there different AC softcaps for each batch of aa's to start working)



    The question I would like to know the answer to is;



    taking a level 70 monk as a starting point at what AC value will,

    1) CA/CS

    2) ID/LR

    3) RM/DI

    actually start to work?


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  32. #232
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    Default Re: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

    I gotta say... I'm surviving raid content more frequently... Used to be the boss would turn and just eat me with 4 max hits.



    Lately, I get 1-2 max hits, and a couple lower end ones, letting me survive and FD @ 5% instead of just loading into the Guild Lobby.


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  33. #233
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    Default Re: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

    /kneel ned



    great work bro!






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  34. #234
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    Default Re: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

    Gonna parse using a shield anytime soon?


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  35. #235
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Homer
    amazingly ave hit 328.44/maxhit 471 * 100 = 69.9????
    Not amazing since it's the exact same calculation you did in the first part of your post, just shorter.
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  36. #236
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

    Quote Originally Posted by polkgaiimahn
    Gonna parse using a shield anytime soon?



    </p>
    all a shield does is raise your ac softcap by whatever number the AC is on the shield.

    so if shield is 100 AC, your softcap goes up 100


  37. #237
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    Default

    Bump.

    Anyone save some of the graphs and mind re-hosting them?

  38. #238
    Ascendant Ashenhand Myrilith's Avatar
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    Default Level 75

    Has anyone done parsing across a level spread of different mobs?

    vs level 60, 65, 70, 75, 80 mobs?

    And any parsing now with level 75 and the new AAs?

    Hopefully we can get level 80 done soon also.


    And I for one do think that a parse with full AAs and max shielding would be nice to have.

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