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  1. #1
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default AC Parse, CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5

    Thanks goes to Kavhok for allowing me to run these tests.
    These are the tests I did overnight. Every fight is 90 minutes long.

    Level 65 Iksar Monk
    No AA, no worn AC, 200 AGI

    This is vs Level 60 mob from the Test NPC Summoner in the Arena on test server. I had myself backed into a corner so there were no "out of range" messages.

    Raw AC AC Min % Max % Ave

    0 853 4.08% 37.55% 360.19
    100 1010 12.73 18.79 301.83
    100 1010 12.46 18.20 302.44
    100 1010 13.05 18.41 301.40
    100 1010 13.15 18.41 301.61
    200 1167 16.35 14.81 283.29
    200 1167 18.33 12.34 271.20
    200 1167 19.48 9.70 267.03
    200 1167 19.76 10.85 264.73
    200 1219 20.14 10.30 262.62 --- Level 70
    200 1219 22.27 9.78 256.57 --- Level 70
    300 1325 19.10 11.67 269.88
    300 1325 20.12 11.49 265.62
    300 1325 24.87 8.78 247.58
    300 1325 22.27 8.06 250.75
    300 1377 25.65 8.26 245.51 --- Level 70
    300 1377 25.63 7.79 242.50 --- Level 70
    400 1482 22.47 9.55 259.66
    400 1482 23.81 8.92 254.06
    400 1482 25.86 7.32 243.02
    400 1482 25.08 8.09 244.75
    400 1534 27.01 7.96 242.14 --- Level 70
    400 1534 28.84 6.49 235.55 --- Level 70
    500 1639 23.87 8.35 250.20
    500 1639 26.35 7.64 242.55
    500 1639 30.11 6.00 229.45
    500 1639 29.35 5.72 234.23 --- ID5 #2
    500 1639 30.78 7.44 233.65
    500 1639 28.54 6.10 233.76 --- PE #2
    500 1691 31.12 6.46 230.08 --- Level 70
    500 1691 30.94 4.96 225.19 --- Level 70 ~1 hour parse
    600 1798 25.71 7.28 242.67
    600 1798 28.41 6.32 234.29
    600 1798 31.47 4.68 224.32
    600 1798 32.27 5.79 226.78 --- ID5 #2
    600 1798 31.01 5.59 230.88
    600 1798 32.54 5.72 226.86 --- PE #2
    600 1798 33.29 5.63 227.40 --- PE #3
    600 1850 31.90 5.18 226.22 --- Level 70
    600 1850 33.99 4.74 223.42 --- Level 70
    600 1850 34.06 4.83 221.75 --- Level 70 ~10 hour parse
    1300 2951 46.48 1.33 191.51 --- Level 70

    *all tests are 90 minutes unless stated otherwise

    black = no defensive AA

    blue = CS3

    red = CS3 & ID5

    purple = CS3 & ID5 & PE

    yellow = CS3 & ID5 & PE & DI5


  2. #2
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    Are the parses all at 200 Agi?



    and for the math wizzies, how do we tell the difference between an AC soft cap and the maximum benefit AC will give on said mob?



    Without crunching numbers, the peak seems to have been met somwhere around the 300 worn AC mark, no?


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  3. #3
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    That's interesting. It seems that AC is still a significant factor up to at least 1482 AC, based on these parses. I did notice that while the evasion in the first 4 or so parses stayed pretty much statistically the same (which I would expect), in the last parse it jumps 2-3%... was any part of the +400 ac added in that parse from an avoidance mod on an item or additional agi? If so, it would explain why the evasion percentage increased. It would also indicate that it took even less mitigation AC for the noted damage reduction than one would be initially led to believe by looking at the ac numbers in the previous parses as compared to this one, because the avoidance ac from the avoidance mod or agi would still show up as an increase in the shown AC number.



    Euphrates


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=eup hrates>Euphrates</A> at: 5/13/05 10:09 am

  4. #4
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    Intersting.



    What we see is a LARGE reduction in DPS when you add the first 100 AC, a smaller reduction when you add the second hundred, another small reduction when you add the third hundred, and then a larger reduction when you add the fourth.



    First I would like to thank you for taking the 6 hours+ to do this parse.



    Secondly I would like to note that this does NOT follow what I woudl expect with a softcap and then limited returns over that softcap.



    If the mobs attack is high enough I would expect a linear, or close to linear, reduction until the softcap is reached, and then a slower yet still linear (from the point of the softcap) decrease in DPS.



    If the mobs attack is NOT high enough, I would expect a sharp decrease in DPS as we add AC (similar to what you experienced adding the first 100 AC), but then a markedly less decrease in DPS and a flattening after AC got to a point sufficently beyond that AC.



    The only reason I can think if why you had the big jump between 300 and 400 is if that wound up a sweet spot on the attack vs AC of the mob. Basically its attack was high enough that the movement between 100 and 200 and 300 was negligible but 400 put it over the top.



    Is there any chance you could do two more test, the same mob with 500 and 600 worn AC to see if it creates a larger or smaller differnce in DPS.



    Thank You,



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  5. #5
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    ill add the +500 and +600 ac later today



    as for the tests, yes 200 agi for all



    the only change from one test to the next was purely +100 ac per test only, nothing else changed at all.


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    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ned rom2004>Nedrom2004</A> at: 5/13/05 10:16 am


  6. #6
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    Since % chance of a mob maxhitting on you is related to your AC and its attack, there will be a softcap for individual mobs beyond which you already mitigate the hits down to min damage and therefore no longer see a benefit from additional AC. To illustrate with fake numbers, say a mob has 50 atk and you have 8000 AC, you will mitigate nearly every hit down to min damage. Since this is the case, you will be unable to find the monk AC softcap when parsing against a mob with attack so low that the mob softcap is lower than the class softcap. However if you can find mobs that have their softcap at higher than the monk class softcap, you would then be able to see at which point AC stops having a noticeable benefit. Since return on AC over cap may be much more significant now, it may be necessary to do multiple parses against said mobs with different AC levels in order to quantify how much a certain amount of AC increases hit mitigation for that mob, then you would be able to find the AC level above which the return changes, which would be the monk AC softcap.



    Euphrates


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  7. #7
    Ascendant Stone Fist
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    Very nice work Ned and thanks. This should provide good fodder for all the people that live by the numbers.



    I know the last change definitely has had an impact on me.


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  8. #8
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    the jump in dps from 300 to 400 is from the avoidance increase.



    Nedrom can you post the Avg hit for just punches at each of the ac levels.


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  9. #9
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Nedrom can you post the Avg hit for just punches at each of the ac levels.<hr></blockquote>



    Replaced Totals view with [punch] selected to show proper average, before it was showing [total] damage.



    Sorry about that.


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  10. #10
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    Graph updated to current data and the color coding set to match the one Nedrom is using.







    P.S. Great stuff Nedrom. This is by far the most in depth mitigation parsing I've ever seen and it's really helpful showing the trends of our AA and gear choices on damage taken. Great job.



    Oh, I know you've spent an incredible amount of time doing this, but if you continue to have the motivation I'd Love to see some Sheilding Parses with ID 5. I'd like to see how much further we can trend our damage down with it. Say at 10% and 20% if Kavhok could hook it up. Either way, I know I appreciate all the hard work.


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  11. #11
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    Neato...Thanks Ned. Well...no worries about taking away our newfound better mitigation due to the fact that at my AC lvl 1450+ we are still hit for 9.55% max hits. I can get close to 1600ac w/ buff so Im eagerly awaiting the 1600 parse.


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  12. #12
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    It's a 22% reduction of max hits from 300 to 400 raw ac still. Nothing to sneeze at.



    Thank you Nedrom.


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  13. #13
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    Default Whoa...

    Soft cap at 65 appears to be ~193 raw AC.

    Return over the cap appears to be 1/10 up from 1/40.


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  14. #14
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training Sarshish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    I would expect that the point of significant return would shift depending on mob attack rating. As the AC passes the mobs attack value then returns would level off. So, to properly see the curve you need to do the parses with an attack rating either much higher than your AC adjustment range or much lower. Otherwise the effect of passing the softcap will be impacted by the effect of passing the mobs attack score.


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  15. #15
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    added +500 ac parse



    is this sufficient data or do you want me to re-parse from 0->600 AC with Combat Stability 3 added?


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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    Very nice Ned! Many thanks for the effort on this. You've spent a lot of time on these parses and I appreciate it. Looks like the recent mitigation changes should significantly help.



    Now stop testing and go raid! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b">










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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    Would apprecaite it if you would post the 600 one. It looks jsut eyeballign it that the 400 one may be off slightly due to the increased avoidance. This is causing the 400 and the 500 AC tests to show the same DPS even thoguh there is a differnce in the AVG Hit.



    And homer not really enough points to get a fair estimate of the softcap yet, and I would expect if the return was 1/10 rather then 1/40 the slope would have changed by a factor of 10. Looks to me like it might be closer to 1/3 or even dare I hope 1/2.



    One last request if possible. Since you are obviously doing this on beta or test or in a controled environment where you can add exacting AC. Would it be possible to try this with two additional mobs. Specfically I would like to see how the ac affects a monk when he is fighting a Kyv from Kod Taz (notoriously high accuracy) and a Riftseekers trash mob.



    Again thank you for the work you have put into this.



    Your Kinder Gentler Iksar,

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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    Any other data point you want to parse would be good, I'd especially like to see some more granular parses in the 100-200 region. I think it's clear your return diminishes just over 100 and is a completely linear reduction after that.



    It would be nice to see where the cap moves with aa mitigation too.


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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    Good stuff, Ned.


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  20. #20
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    added +600 parse


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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>And homer not really enough points to get a fair estimate of the softcap yet, and I would expect if the return was 1/10 rather then 1/40 the slope would have changed by a factor of 10. Looks to me like it might be closer to 1/3 or even dare I hope 1/2.<hr></blockquote>



    There are enough points...



    Anyway, with the added point, the softcap went down to 187 raw AC? I'm missing something, the 600 Raw AC seems to have broken the linearity of 1/10 so it looks like 1/14ish over the cap now?



    Math help. Simple coefficient and linearity, an excel spread sheet can do it. Double check me please.


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    Default Re: Whoa...

    /bows in reverence.






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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    First of all Ned, I want to thank you for all your efforts. You did what you could reasonably do.



    However in my mind, all you've done is find the ATK cap....for one specific MOB....who is 10 levels lower then you are. I'd lay PP out that higher level/ATK MOB's are still going to hit for max at higher AC levels. At 1550'ish displayed AC, WoS nameds hit me for max more then min. However none of the trash MOB's in WoS/RCoD did. Who hits for max more often, Tormax or Vindi? It was the same problem I saw with Thepps parses. Complete as they were, it showed what you could expect....at different AC levels....On a specific type of MOB in a specific zone. Take a MOB who's max hit is the same from PoP and GoD, and the damage output/second is generally quite large. Add a third MOB whose max hit is just as large from OoW, and it will land somewhere in the middle.



    My real rant is....why SOE, why? Make a Monk NPC. Give it super regen. Set it's AC to a certain point. Take it into MPG and let a L70 staticfist beat on it. Then an elite Kyv. Then take him to RSS. Let a Pyrilian beat on him. Take different parses based on different set AC levels. Hey I've been gaming for a long time, I've used Diablo Mods and screwed with my Bards Tale files, I'm sure your devs could get in and twink an NPC to have whatever stats you want it to have. I don't understand why it takes years of complaining about our damage taken, and numerous hours/thosands of log file lines for us to tell you something....that one bored Dev could have told you in a day of testing.


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  24. #24
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    Ugle,



    The monk in the parse is a dummy monk, level 65, 200 AGI, no AA, max defense skill for level 65 and the AC values I listed, not what is in my magelo, so the test NPC was 5 levels under.



    The "only" variable is AC. Nothing else.


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  25. #25
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    Ok, sorry I missed that point. 5 levels lower. That's the only point in dispute? Like I said I appreciate you taking the time to do this, I'm not trying to impugn you or your efforts. My question is how applicable the AC softcap you found on this particular MOB is going to be for me when I'm in RSS or the Nest and the tank drops and I have to grab it. Heck we don't even know how these numbers would change if you were L70. Like I said that's my real rant, SOE could parse 100 different level/AC/AA combos anytime they want, on any MOB they want. And yet due to damage output and the fact that EQ IS NOT OUR FULL TIME JOB it's not realistic for us to do the same. Why are we having to tell them what it's like to play their game?


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  26. #26
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    These parses show that AC works, even with no Defensive AA and low end AC levels. What level the mob is, what level their attack is, and what zone they are in are irrelevant.



    It's implied that high end zones like RSS are going to hit hard and fast, just like in Anguish or Txevu or Uqua or Tipt or Vxed. If every NPC had the same attack it would be a very boring and easy game.



    Parsing against another NPC will prove nothing.





    PS: From the graph that Axiss made, it appears that the softcap is a lot lower than everyone expected. There is a steep decline from 853 to 1010, and after that it evens out showing the "return over cap" working nicely.



    Now I don't see how any monk can complain about the changes made and say it doesnt affect them because it does indeed affect all of us and makes all of us better monks and will make all of us take damage better.



    Imo, great job Kavhok. Lets move on.


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  27. #27
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Parsing against another NPC will prove nothing.<hr></blockquote>



    I very much appreciate the posts and the logs you've done. However, I'd say that while we have a solid conclusion about worn AC at one given level of mob attack. The real test should be seeing on a very high attack mob if our AC has any meaning. My gut instinct is that our softcap is low enough that high attack mobs negates any gains we've recently made in AC. (As in, you need 1800AC+ before any high attack mob does anything but max hit you 90% of the time.)


















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  28. #28
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    Default Re: Whoa...

    AC has always worked. An 1800AC Monk gets hit for less then a 1K AC Monk. The question is at what point the extra AC starts showing limited/no returns. So since parsing is irrelevant according to you, then you can definitively state that the point at which your L65 Monk showed diminishing AC returns on that MOB is the same point that I will at L70 in RSS on a Pyrilian? It's a simple answer, yes or no. I don't have 4 hours of parses on one MOB, but from a fair number of fights, I can tell you that my hit distribution, leaving AC consistent, changes on higher level MOB's towards the top end.



    I've got a Warrior friend who's stuck in the 80's. Well guess I should say 90's. His AC is <1600 unbuffed. He doesn't think he needs any more AC, because he's over the old Velious caps. He mitigates really well in places like the GoD sewers (specifically thinking of his parses in Sewers1 where they are 1K hitters, some unslowable). He gets hit really hard in MPG, even though max hit is pretty close in both places. According to you, his <span style="text-decoration:underline">average hit distribution</span> should be the same both places, why isn't it?


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  29. #29

    Default Re: AC Parse

    Awesome job Nedrom, thanks for taking the time to do this.


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  30. #30
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    Great job, Nedrom and thanks a lot.


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  31. #31
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    Thanks greatly for takin the time and to Kavhok for setting you up.



    Definately interesting information. Im lvl 65 with almost all the defensive AA available so I feel the information is relevant to me.



    I do agree that it would be interesting to see the difference vs a mob with a drastically higher attck value though. Since this is all set up already, we shouldnt let that opportunity go by.



    We can all make assumptions what will be the results..but until its proven, thats all they will be.






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  32. #32
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    Well done Ned, good effort. If it's the holy grail we hoped for or not I don't know. But it's good enough for me and shows me what I needed to know, that the patch WORKED.



    The talk about details is to me irrelevant (offcourse I have 1991ac unbuffed) because as already said it shows that our new ac returns works.



    That a 1400-1500 monk will still get splattered in /rss and the nest should be a foregone conclusion. a lvl 70 Paladin friend of mine (dosen't have all his def aa's) have around 1700ac and can't tank in the Nest or Rss, so offcourse monks at that ac would also get pounded.



    However monks with 1500 ac can now comfertably stand toe to toe and pull in zones where a tank of 1500ac is needed to tank and that is what we wanted wasen't it?


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  33. #33
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    /applaud Nedrom.



    I think we finally got what we wanted on mitigation/AC returns, I am satisfied on this issue.



    I would like to see this community shift its focus to balancing dps, especially monk specials.



    And upping the spawn rate of our epic 1.0 npc's. I hate Raster.



    Time to give my alts a rest I guess and get back on the monk. With a few more AC points I should be able to solo a bit and duo effectively, albeit slowly (as opposed to glacially), which is what I've wanted all along.


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  34. #34
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    /bow Ned



    Thanks man, for taking the time.



    See ya in game =)



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  35. #35
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    Good going Ned!



    And its nice to see our AC doing something! Gives me hope.



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  36. #36
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    Excellent job, thanks for the effort!



    /em claps and surreptitiously adds a parse with all Luclin and then all PoP defensive AAs to Ned's "to do when I am bored" list <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">


    Scalia, 65 Monk




    Scabon, 65 Shaman</p>

  37. #37
    Ascendant Stone Fist Dythan Dabrave's Avatar
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    Default Re: AC Parse

    Thanks for the time Neo, great job.



    Still really curious as to the new soft cap, i hit about 1550ac raid buffed, and trying to decide if i need oow migitation aa's or not.



    been doing defence for a bit, would like to up my dps =P


    Dithan Dabrrave

    70th season monk

    Forsaken Visage



    The only difference between a Hero and a Fool is Success.</p>
    Brother Dythan
    Level 70 Monk
    Entendre
    Phinny

  38. #38
    Guest

    Default Re: AC Parse

    Do the exact same thing with a warrior and a paladin. And every other class too... if that's not asking too much. =)


    </p>

  39. #39
    Guest

    Default Re: AC Parse

    I've noticed the changes in mitigation, I am happy. I feel like I am back in the kunark era and have no mitigation nerf


    <div style="text-align:center"></div>

    </p>

  40. #40
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Posts
    65

    Default Re: AC Parse

    I'm keeping the graph up to date as data is available. It's nice to see the average damage scales so nicely downward with more AC and we can clearly see the softcap making the plot turn. I'm not going to attempt to calculate exactly where that is, but the low 100's worn AC looks right since the slope between 100 and 200 is a good bit higher than from 300-600 but just barely more.



    I'd be curious to see the same parse run with a level 70 to see where the softcap is at that level. I think it should be higher, correct? I could plot it out along side the 65 data to say for sure.


    <span style="color:red;font-family:helvectia;font-size:large;">Axiss Glox</span>

    <span style="color:red;font-family:helvectia;font-size:small;">65 Transcendant of Stasis</span>

    Magelo Profile

    Axiss@Stasis-Guild.com</p>

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