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Thread: Monk Concerns & Bugs

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    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Default Monk Concerns & Bugs

    Please use this thread to post your concerns, feedback or bugs relating to the Monk class. This way we have everything in one spot.

    I got the idea when looking at the Berserker forums and figured it would be good for us to have one since I haven't seen one anywhere.

    I'll update this thread with the list as I see posts come in:

    Bugs:
    -intimidate skill: Elidroth confirmed last year this skill is bugged, we have yet to see patch notes indicating that it was fixed as it is impossible to skill up or max outside of using points obtained from increasing your level when you spend them at your class trainer.
    -disc hotkey/display bug: "Originally Posted by Aggememnon
    So I looked again, and its Void step Rk III. I see it as Rk. III in the discipline selector window, but when I move it hotbar it appears as Rk. I. When I click the Rk. I it works (is it firing Rk. I or III I dunno), and when I type '/disc Void Step Rk. III' it works with same message (I think). Again no clue which version is firing... Could be just display bug?"

    Concerns:
    -Strikethrough AA: Too many ranks of Strikethrough AA & Tactical Mastery AA, we currently have 11 ranks that are over the cap. The optimal cost path is to buy 6 ranks of 15 of Strikethrough and 3 ranks of 5 for Tactical Mastery. This will provide you with 100% if you have 35% worn strikethrough. The 11 ranks work out to be 69 AA. Can these AA ranks be refunded or changed to something else?
    -Slippery Attacks AA has been depreciated by the changes to Return Kick AA & Disciple's / Master's Aura Discipline which have turned off ripostes completely. The 5 ranks work out to be 15 AA. Can these AA ranks be refunded or changed to something else?
    -Five Point Palm - currently does not stack with other monks in a group/raid. If one hits the ability, and another hits right after, the last monk to use the ability is the only one to get the large damage. With the reduced timer AA bringing it down to 5 minutes, it is extremely difficult to coordinate with other monks to use the ability, especially since it's not instantaneous. It would be great if something could be done so all monks at any time can use this ability and receive the damage expected regardless of when they use it and if other monks are present or not. For an ability that costs us a whopping 117 AA across both lines of Five Point Palm and Hastened Five Point Palm, we would appreciate that something would be done to resolve this issue.
    -Six Step / Seven Step / Whorl of Fists line & Synergy Line of Disciplines: the six/seven step/whorl line of discs is a large attack using tiger claw. The synergy line is flying kick instead, with the bonus of a boost to flying kick damage that is a short term buff on the NPC. We keep getting upgrades to the Six/Seven step line of disciplines when noone uses it. This ability may have a higher base damage, but synergy, even outside of a raid, provides much larger DPS for all monks because it boosts all flying kicks, including the stunning kick AA. Synergy line is also boosted greatly by Cleave worn gear mods whereas the Six/Seven step pattern line is not. Since both abilities share the same timer, they both cannot be used. Essentially since inception the Synergy line is the preferred discipline for DPS and is also attainable at lower levels compared to the latter. It would be a great dps bonus for us to have these two abilities to not share the same timer, or to do something completely different with the discipline line to make it worth using. Also, Tiger Claw as a skill has not increased in many years, where, Flying Kick always increases as a skill each time we get a level boost, making it the preferred special attack.
    -DPS: too low to compete with other classes or to be required in groups or raids
    -Farming out of Hundred Hand Effects: "Originally Posted by tanecho
    What used to be a defining monk trait seems to be more and more common as time goes on. This has a dual effect of diluting the benefit/uniqueness to the monks, and also reduces the benefits of ADPS effects to us. Take Kolos' Fury for example. It's certainly a fantastic buff even without considering the hundred hand effect, but when you add it in, it becomes a much larger benefit to non-monks (and non-rogues as well, since they too have an innate proc hundred hands 15 at this point.) This adds insult to injury on our current DPS situation, especially during burns. It was one thing when berserkers had warcry, but now you have quick time, kolos, and probably other things that I do not know about."
    -H2H Weapon Drop Rates: many monks find that drop rates for our weapons at both the group and raid level are extremely low. Could this be looked into? Compared to for example, Rogue Only Daggers, which from our recording every expansion appears to drop more frequently than H2H which is actually used by two classes.

    Updated Nov 2, 2012.
    Last edited by Nedrom; 10-22-2012 at 01:25 PM.


  2. #2
    Enlightened Grandmaster
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    Not a huge concern, but 5pp not stacking

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    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Added it to the list, oh how could I forget that one!


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    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Added the pattern vs synergy concerns. If anyone else has feedback or suggestions on these, please feel free to post and I'll add notes.

    Also please feel free to rewrite the above if you think it could be explained better.


  5. #5
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    I think it was void step (or veiled body?) - I had the rank I version from a merchant, and bought (dkp) the rune to get rank III. I made a hotkey from the discipline selector and replaced the rank I version on my hotbars, and forgot about it. Couple of raids later, I saw it was displaying (and firing) rank I. I thought I had made a mistake, and rebought it. Same deal - does not display/fire as rank III.

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    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggememnon View Post
    I think it was void step (or veiled body?) - I had the rank I version from a merchant, and bought (dkp) the rune to get rank III. I made a hotkey from the discipline selector and replaced the rank I version on my hotbars, and forgot about it. Couple of raids later, I saw it was displaying (and firing) rank I. I thought I had made a mistake, and rebought it. Same deal - does not display/fire as rank III.
    Could you please confirm which disc it was?

    Would it be possible for you to hot key the disc to the discipline window hotkeys instead of a hotbar and see if that reproduces the problem?

    Does the disc window where you get the list of all the discs show rk3 or rk1?


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    Ascendant Transcendent Kaliaila's Avatar
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    Suggestion for slippery attacks would be to change it to a passive increase to accuracy that stacks with everything or maybe increase the +Accuracy cap.
    Ascendant Apostle Xianzu Ryuukyo
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    Concern: Farming out of Hundred Hand Effects
    What used to be a defining monk trait seems to be more and more common as time goes on. This has a dual effect of diluting the benefit/uniqueness to the monks, and also reduces the benefits of ADPS effects to us. Take Kolos' Fury for example. It's certainly a fantastic buff even without considering the hundred hand effect, but when you add it in, it becomes a much larger benefit to non-monks (and non-rogues as well, since they too have an innate proc hundred hands 15 at this point.) This adds insult to injury on our current DPS situation, especially during burns. It was one thing when berserkers had warcry, but now you have quick time, kolos, and probably other things that I do not know about.


    Additionally, being balanced around a near constant hundred hand effect, we are terribly reliant on overhaste to maximize dps potential. (Read, bard or go home). If hundred hands are being farmed out, maybe we could consider spreading around some permanent overhaste to other classes. Cap it at 20 for others if you like to keep bard uniqueness, tie it to some group only abilities, etc. Also, add in AM1 and AM2 items in current content (T2 and T3 VoA click rings would've been ideal for this, instead of having 2 melee rings per tier that click form of defense.)

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    Also, lines we use that weren't upgraded this expansion: Ironfist, Cloud of Fists, Drunken Monkey.
    I just came back from a long hiatus, so I only have rank 3 of one of these from the 1 HoT raid I caught before we stopped doing them due to massive stat inflation and focus degradation.

  10. #10
    Enlightened Grandmaster
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    I agree with the HH statement Tanecho, but it's too late to go back now, or they'll just piss off everyone they gave it to.

    Also, please don't upgrade cloud of fists... that one needs to die

  11. #11
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    There's a dps goal for us that the developers might have vs what we might want. It really doesn't matter how we get there. Whether it's accuracy, upgrades to cloud and other discs, unlinking discs, etc.

    Generically we need to measure and compare DPS in beta and point out problems or lobby for changes and use the above suggestions as possible ways to get there.

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    The hh statement is more of a request to add another benefit to speed focus (crit, accuracy, crit damage) because the hh itself is no longer a significant boost. I'm all for replacing cloud with something better. May be a good candidate for a place to put x-step pattern if damage is adjusted accordingly.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nedrom View Post
    Could you please confirm which disc it was?

    Would it be possible for you to hot key the disc to the discipline window hotkeys instead of a hotbar and see if that reproduces the problem?

    Does the disc window where you get the list of all the discs show rk3 or rk1?
    So I looked again, and its Void step Rk III. I see it as Rk. III in the discipline selector window, but when I move it hotbar it appears as Rk. I. When I click the Rk. I it works (is it firing Rk. I or III I dunno), and when I type '/disc Void Step Rk. III' it works with same message (I think). Again no clue which version is firing... Could be just display bug?

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    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggememnon View Post
    So I looked again, and its Void step Rk III. I see it as Rk. III in the discipline selector window, but when I move it hotbar it appears as Rk. I. When I click the Rk. I it works (is it firing Rk. I or III I dunno), and when I type '/disc Void Step Rk. III' it works with same message (I think). Again no clue which version is firing... Could be just display bug?
    Thanks for the reproduction steps.

    Could any other monks weigh in on this? Can anyone else reproduce this problem? Seems like a bug but want to be sure.

    I don't have VoA... waiting for RoF purchase so I can't try it out myself.


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    I am fairly sure I have seen this with other disciplines also and I believe it may just be a limitation of text space in the hotbar but that in fact it does fire the correct rk of the discipline. This should be displayed if you review your log file.

    If I get some time I'll review this after raid tonight.

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    It appears in your short buff window as Void Step III after you use it.

  17. #17
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    Give us DPS.

    That's my bug. Give raids a reason to bring us. Let us compete


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    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Updated the list.


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    I believe the fix for the disc display issue is on test, I haven't been there to verify though.

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    Can we add end tier weapon drop rates? We are now 7/11 rog only piercers off sep #1 and sep #2 wins, with only 1 h2h in the same time. In fact I'd argue that there should no longer be rog only weapons at all - even the generic piercer off sep#3 has dropped 100% so far (6 times).
    Last edited by Aggememnon; 11-06-2012 at 08:57 AM. Reason: formatting removed

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    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    H2H drop rates is an issue dating back a very very long time, as long as I've been playing since POP was current. I don't expect that to ever change.


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    I've been playing a long time too - and I agree its always been a concern, but this is by FAR the worst its been - or else I am incredibly unlucky. You may have noticed my post in equipment section to try and collate the experience of others on this topic...

    Since its a long standing concern, so surely worth adding to a list entitled 'concerns'?

    There must be easy ways to address that:
    * H2H weapons should be fixed percentage drop rate *above* Class only weapons (if they should exist at all). Rare should be something like 5%, not the 65% odd I see...
    * H2H weapons should drop from more than one event

    Looking at that - I begin to wonder whether the loot tables got populated with a monk/rog transversion - ie. the piercer drop rates being given to h2h weapons, and vice versa... worth asking...

  23. #23
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    H2h drops were good until t4.

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    Our 3rd and 4th alts have H2Hs, they don't drop as often as the rogue piercer, but they do drop more than in the past. I would say it's just bad RNG.

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    For sure I would not like to take our drop rates in isolation - as you and I have both said it may be down to RNG. However, the fact that you see more rog piercers than h2h suggests a potential problem. Since you have had a lot of h2h *in total*, can you provide some numbers so we can get a better idea of drop rate, and report it for subsequent expansion at least?

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    We got a few early on in t4, but have hit a long dry spell since. There's one monk and one beast in our guild with the 18dly one, and I think 2 monks and 1 beast with the 20 dly one. (And of course that beast with both hasn't played in at least a month. /sigh)

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    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    h2h is usable by two classes, monk and bst
    1hp is usable by war, rog, ranger, bst, brd

    this is why 1hp drops more than h2h. it just so happens that normally only rogues want those weapons.


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    Other than the rogue only stuff that has been going to alts. heh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nedrom View Post
    h2h is usable by two classes, monk and bst
    1hp is usable by war, rog, ranger, bst, brd

    this is why 1hp drops more than h2h. it just so happens that normally only rogues want those weapons.
    Rogue only daggers useable by Rogues only.

    Hth Usable by Monk and Beast.

    At least for us Rogue only drops more than HtH.
    Going for AC before AC was cool.

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    I think we all just have far too little statistical information for drop rates to be legitimately questioned. We seem to get a LOT of h2h weapons, I think every monk and beast alt has gotten one by now.

    Instead of making the discussion about drop rates and perceived inequalities, maybe suggest an alternate system... this is not a well thought out (on my part) idea but a class weapon item for a tier drop item. Then whoever gets the class weapon item drop, takes it to the vendor and can hand in and choose the weapon they want. The up side is that it is very unliekly to rot. The downside is that if you are a DKP guild you will need to wait till your turn on the wheel comes up. As opposed to even if I am a slacker on a h2h buy, and we have had 6 drop in 6 events, I am very likely to get one... where as if it were the 6th class weapon item to drop, and I was a slacker, I would be damn unliekly to get it. It could also be used to let you choose which class weapon you wanted for that Tier.

    Just my 2 cents

    And in our guild the group who has had super shitty drop rates are the pure caster weapons... those things have been stupidly rare.
    Rten/Frank

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    I'm happy with your exchange system, or even with a crush system. Class only weapons right now are just plain wrong. I did also suggest an alternate system - remove class only weapons (eg rogue), and that should fix it. For us, even the multi-class piercer has dropped 100% of the time (7 or 8 wins, event#3), versus the mnk/bst h2h which is less than 10% (event #2, 12-13 wins), and never in event 3... And for caster weapons, yeah its a pain, but they are pretty much front loaded in their dps from spells early on. Do they really care? And if they do, remove the class only piercer from event #2 and replace with 25% h2h, 25% each priest/int caster, 25% 2handers.

    Another option would be the VoA bronze fiats. Problem with that is that the weapons are way too expensive. As a dual wield class you need over 1000 fiats for the pair, and probably a chest too, so 1.5k fiats. If you farm, say, 10 events a week (will be less of course), thats 4 months alone in the end tier - minimum. Melee classes need weapons, but its an excessively tortuous path to get them. Maybe they need to review the melee/caster weapon pricing...

    For those that can get the actual drop rates from their dkp sites, I'd still be very interested to see them.

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    Default Question?

    What are fiats Aggememnon?

  33. #33
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ughbash View Post
    Rogue only daggers useable by Rogues only.

    Hth Usable by Monk and Beast.

    At least for us Rogue only drops more than HtH.
    Maybe the fix should be to remove rogue only weapons, so at least when rogues have the 'uber 1hp' other classes could find the weapon useful.

    I honestly don't understand why they have class specific weapons anymore.

    Instead of class specific weapons, my best idea is to introduce a 'class based tradeskill' where any weapon that drops, players could craft an aug from tradeskills that is specific to their class to tailor the weapon to their class needs.


  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarie View Post
    What are fiats Aggememnon?
    Bronze Fiats are VoA T4 raid currency. Used to purchase VoA T4 raid equipment from a vendor in CoB.

  35. #35
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    Zarie,

    To further explain them, everyone who is there for a t4 raid event win, automatically gets 10 fiats. You can then use these fiats to buy raid drops from a vendor. His inventory will include drops that come from events you've personally participated in. In other words if you were there for a sep3 event win, then the vendor will include those items that potentially can drop from sep3 and you can purchase them for fiats.

    The prices for T4 items vary from 200 to 500 fiats. A BP, for instance is 500 fiats, but a ring might be 200 Fiats. I think the monk h2h is 400 something fiats. In other words, it takes 40+ T4 raid wins to aquire enough fiats to buy a h2h weapon. There are 8 T4 events, so you could get about 80 fiats a week, but for our guild it's more like 5 or 6 wins a week at best because some events we skip and we don't always have the turn out to win the ones we typically try to win during the week.

    There are also different currencies specific to the other raid tiers. T2 in particular was very easy to gear up on because the pricing was scaled to the number of t2 events (2?), and the events dropped a lot of loot per event also because there weren't many events. T3 wasn't bad either. T4 has been slower because the prices are higher, and it's harder to finish all the events or at least be on for all of them if you're not a 100% attendance raider.

    Overall I'm glad there is a currency, though the UF style crush quest would be better for weapons. In T4 I bought the charm everyone wants (it only dropped 2 or 3 times and there are a lot of raiders to feed. heh). I have a pile of fiats I'm sitting on at the moment because I'm hoping to get a BP via dkp so I can spend the fiats on something else, but I may get impatient and just buy a BP anyway. At first I thought we'd get the T4 h2h weapons easy like in other tiers, but each week that goes by without another drop it comes closer to going on to my fiats shopping list.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorkeyah View Post
    Zarie,

    To further explain them, everyone who is there for a t4 raid event win, automatically gets 10 fiats. You can then use these fiats to buy raid drops from a vendor. His inventory will include drops that come from events you've personally participated in. In other words if you were there for a sep3 event win, then the vendor will include those items that potentially can drop from sep3 and you can purchase them for fiats.

    The prices for T4 items vary from 200 to 500 fiats. A BP, for instance is 500 fiats, but a ring might be 200 Fiats. I think the monk h2h is 400 something fiats. In other words, it takes 40+ T4 raid wins to aquire enough fiats to buy a h2h weapon. There are 8 T4 events, so you could get about 80 fiats a week, but for our guild it's more like 5 or 6 wins a week at best because some events we skip and we don't always have the turn out to win the ones we typically try to win during the week.

    There are also different currencies specific to the other raid tiers. T2 in particular was very easy to gear up on because the pricing was scaled to the number of t2 events (2?), and the events dropped a lot of loot per event also because there weren't many events. T3 wasn't bad either. T4 has been slower because the prices are higher, and it's harder to finish all the events or at least be on for all of them if you're not a 100% attendance raider.

    Overall I'm glad there is a currency, though the UF style crush quest would be better for weapons. In T4 I bought the charm everyone wants (it only dropped 2 or 3 times and there are a lot of raiders to feed. heh). I have a pile of fiats I'm sitting on at the moment because I'm hoping to get a BP via dkp so I can spend the fiats on something else, but I may get impatient and just buy a BP anyway. At first I thought we'd get the T4 h2h weapons easy like in other tiers, but each week that goes by without another drop it comes closer to going on to my fiats shopping list.
    That sounds like a good system. It's too bad they didn't have something similar for grouping.


  37. #37
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    With group stuff you could camp a named and potentially get many tries at its loot table in a week, while raids have a lockout that limits the number more directly.

  38. #38
    Iksar Admin OMFG I Post Too Much Nedrom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorkeyah View Post
    With group stuff you could camp a named and potentially get many tries at its loot table in a week, while raids have a lockout that limits the number more directly.
    True, but look at HoT (I'm saying this because I don't have VoA yet...)

    All non-vis items are on a vendor in Feerrott. It would be great if you had a choice of weapons also on the vendor that you could buy from the currency you get from group tasks. Even if they are not as powerful as the dropped ones, that would be a bonus for anyone who is doing a lot of tasks for a nice reward.


  39. #39
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    Yeah I liked that gear from the HoT vendor and used it.

  40. #40
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    Having equipment on a vendor also made it easier for returning players. Bum some coin from some friends that have an abundance or purchase some from the bazaar to buy what you need to decently equip up to near current group standards.

    Nothing worse than grouping with someone and finding out they are hanging around in full defiant at level 85+.

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