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Thread: Fero is fairly useless

  1. #1
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    Default Worn Fero is fairly useless

    So after all of these parse showing the benefits of cleave and bumping into the maximum minimum hit wall of fero... I decided I would swap out my fero item and with same buffs compare No fero with Fero 11...

    The net difference with no fero was:
    No Fero
    -3 Hstr
    -11Hdex
    -3ATK

    so the fero parse would be same buffs... should be little external/other variables in the parse.

    I can post the details here if you want, but at this point the sum up is average DPS on a long parse...

    Fero 11 9013DPS
    No Fero 8693DPS

    So yes it helps... but the difference is pitifully small...

    Color me disapointed.

    Rten/Frank

    PS Basically the /RNG on our average fight makes more of a difference then Fero does. It takes hours of parsing to get a real average... the numbers can jump or drop randomly on shorter parses (fights) just based on luck.
    Last edited by Rten; 06-11-2014 at 10:47 AM. Reason: Clarification
    Rten/Frank

  2. #2
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    It's always been this way dude. When I was in RoV, like 2 1/2 years ago, my bro kept telling me he didn't know why he casted it on me when it was only like 200 dps.
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  3. #3
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    Hmm assuming you mean Fero from GEAR then this is a big suprise, it goes against what we have believed for a long time.

    I would want to reparse that before I agreed that was correct.

    If you are talking about beastlords shared ferocity then most things that raise attack are fairly minor. I once parsed mammoth force with and without champions and found champions was a waste. Which surprised me and made me stop demanding champions from shamans.

    Just a note from your numbers it is about 3.6 percent increase in dps.
    Going for AC before AC was cool.

  4. #4
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    Umm, champion was incorporated into shaman unity in UF so...

    If he was comparing the focus I will need to run these myself I suppose as that data doesn't look accurate.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kajok View Post
    Umm, champion was incorporated into shaman unity in UF so...

    If he was comparing the focus I will need to run these myself I suppose as that data doesn't look accurate.
    Yes,

    And before they incorporated it mammoth force only had the percent modifier not the attack boost of Champion. I parsed it to prove to our shamans that we NEEDED Champion for the attack boost.... I looked at results and told them don't bother to champion, unity is fine the 133 or so attack is useless.
    Going for AC before AC was cool.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ughbash View Post
    Yes,

    And before they incorporated it mammoth force only had the percent modifier not the attack boost of Champion. I parsed it to prove to our shamans that we NEEDED Champion for the attack boost.... I looked at results and told them don't bother to champion, unity is fine the 133 or so attack is useless.
    With that logic though, you're also arguing that every rank of Enhanced Aggression since UF has been useless too. I'm not necessarily disagreeing but...
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  7. #7
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    I know that back in solteris/SoF, I parsed beastlords fero for my guild at the time and showed that it was worth their dps lost to cast it on monks/rogues/zerkers. I don't still have the data, but has that much changed since then?


  8. #8
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    No, it hasn't, and that's the problem. Dps in other areas has gone up, focuses and buffs have increased in other areas making its effect less and less noticable.
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  9. #9
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    To be clear my parse was to compare worn Fero XI with NO worn Fero at all. And I totally understand and can support the incremental nature of advances... but when the parsed difference between no worn fero and the maximum available in game for us is so small (~300dps) and when my melee base DPS damage is ~9K... 3.3% is not a big gain at all... now I did not do any of the legwork to compare Fero X to Fero XI and the rest. And it does make sense as we have increased our triple atk cap over time it would potentially be less and less gain.

    One last thing, I realized that I had Hastening of Aransir RK1 on me when I ran the parses. RK3 of that spell has these differences:

    RK1
    Slot Description
    2: Increase AGI by 152
    3: Increase DEX by 127
    4: Increase ATK by 133
    5: Increase Attack Speed by 68%
    6: Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 33% with All Skills
    7: Increase Chance to Triple Attack by 19%
    8: Increase Critical Damage by 10% with All Skills

    RK3
    Slot Description
    2: Increase AGI by 168
    3: Increase DEX by 140
    4: Increase ATK by 147
    5: Increase Attack Speed by 68%
    6: Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 35% with All Skills
    7: Increase Chance to Triple Attack by 21%
    8: Increase Critical Damage by 12% with All Skills

    The increased triple attack from RK3 should make worn Fero even less of a difference for the average raider.

    Rten/Frank
    Rten/Frank

  10. #10
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    Another advantage of Fero is the Min Hit.

    We may have gotten to the stage with +dam on cleave and +heroic str and dex that this no longer has any bearing.

    This also MAY have some variable based on the AC of the mob you were parsing on.... If it is very low you compared to your AC, you would not be getting many/any Min hits.

    Definitely needs to be reparsed I think.
    Going for AC before AC was cool.

  11. #11
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    Well, I already have several parses from event 5sep, 1ks non-burn parses, granted they are raid buffed etc. if I get home in time tonight to get added I can take my pants off for that and test it.
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  12. #12
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    Pants of Parsing FTW!

  13. #13
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    The parsing challenge is to have it be consistent as is possible with the one variable being worn fero. Taking off pants will have 20ish HStr and prob 15 HDex change. Just document it. The other bad thing to comparing to actual fights is the inclusion of your 30sec and 10min buffs in real fighting. You can use them in your parse, but since they do not fade it is not a good apples to apples parse, unless you parse both in the GH or on test.

    Rten/Frank

    PS I know 95% of you already know how to parse, just clarifying for the last 5%
    Rten/Frank

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kajok View Post
    take my pants off for that and test it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soygen View Post
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    It used to be that fero over VII was useless. Then they added some stuff to make it worth getting over VII. I guess I'm not too surprised that there isn't a huge difference.

    I forget what they added, but I know they changed that once also. Isn't just some sort of +dmg now?

  17. #17
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    They made it like a 15% to triple attack iirc. Monks having 500 triple attack though it is likely less of a boost for us.
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  18. #18
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    If you can get some cultural legs and put a foci that doesn't matter in there instead of Fero so you dont see that much of a drop in heroics would be best. I know that if you didn't go the cutural path then you won't even consider this. Just trying to think of options for you.

  19. #19
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    7 str and 7 dex isn't going to factor much at all into aprse results.
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  20. #20
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    I ran these parses last night, buffless.

    With fero 10

    /GU Combined: Combat Dummy Heda in 7597s, 31944k @4205dps --- Kajok 31944k @4205dps

    /tell Kajok Kajok -vs- Combined: Combat Dummy Heda: -- DMG: 31943982 -- DPS: 4205 -- Scaled: 4205 -- Punch: 31358231 -- DirDmg: 585751 -- Non-crit rate: 100% -- Attempts: 28646 -- Hits: 28646 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 1115 -- Max hit: 3838 -- DMG to PC: 0

    Min hit: 517

    Without fero period (no focus)

    /GU Combat Dummy Heda in 7554s, 29971k @3968dps --- Kajok 29971k @3968dps

    /tell Kajok Kajok -vs- Combat Dummy Heda: -- DMG: 29971369 -- DPS: 3968 -- Scaled: 3968 -- Punch: 29396734 -- DirDmg: 574635 -- Strike: 0 -- Non-crit rate: 100% -- Attempts: 27258 -- Hits: 27258 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 1099 -- Max hit: 3363 -- DMG to PC: 0

    Min hit: 339

    So, buffless its only a 237 dps difference. Will need to further aprse it with buffs etc. The min hit modifier does still play, but it doesn't seem to be making that much of a difference.
    Last edited by Kajok; 03-05-2012 at 04:07 AM.
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  21. #21
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    Thanks for running the parses too. My numbers had a similar look, but when I dug deeper into the hit distribution you could see that the average hit had obviously not changed much at all. I am TOTALLY speculating, but thinking that the calculation for determing what a hit should be have several different /rng components and that all of them must end up with the lowest possible setting before the min hit qualifier actually kicks in. And even though that min hit push is 178 difference in your parse... the actual frequency that it occurs end up having a negligble impact on average DPS.

    To be clear, you still should have a fero item... but recognizing where it really falls in the priority chain is important.

    Rten/Frank
    Rten/Frank

  22. #22
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    Right, and I still need to run the parses with buffs and bard songs to see the full impact of those on it. However, my suprise comes from the fact that, not that the min hit mod is limited in its usefulness, but that the double atatck 18% and the triple attack 15% mods are so small of a boost.

    I'm sure it's just a product of our skill amounts becoming so high that they are countered. Wondering if buffed parses show similar results if we should bring this to the devs' attention... my concern there would be an accross the board increase which could potentially put us further behind.
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  23. #23
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    Mightbe interesting to run it on Test server wher yo can boost the AC of teh levle 95 test dummy.

    The reason I say this (and it might not be enough to show) is the hit distributions is based on yoru attack vs the mobs AC. This means that the min hit mod SHOULD have more effect on a high AC mob. Test dumies are notoriously low AC.

    What would probalby be good would be (while not tanking) fight 100 mobs (or more 1000 would be much better but....) without pants in T4 and then repeat with pants.
    Going for AC before AC was cool.

  24. #24
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    I can attempt to do this over the next month or so. O don't have a ton of free time to play these days so will have to see how I can incorporate something like that. I can sit and run a parse while I nap or work tho.
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  25. #25
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    Reran parses tonight. Somewhat shorter but they work none-the-less.

    Parses are done with full raid buffs and a bard in group doing their song stuff~

    With fero X

    /GU Combat Dummy Heda in 3408s, 47370k @13900dps --- Kajok 47370k @13900dps

    /tell Kajok Kajok -vs- Combat Dummy Heda: -- DMG: 47370141 -- DPS: 13900 -- Scaled: 13900 -- Punch: 44177380 -- DirDmg: 3192761 -- Non-crit rate: 100% -- Attempts: 30298 -- Hits: 30298 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 1563 -- Max hit: 13618 -- DMG to PC: 0

    Min hit- 683

    Without fero

    /GU Combat Dummy Heda in 3223s, 43036k @13353dps --- Kajok 43036k @13353dps

    /tell Kajok Kajok -vs- Combat Dummy Heda: -- DMG: 43035903 -- DPS: 13353 -- Scaled: 13353 -- Punch: 39816414 -- DirDmg: 3219489 -- Non-crit rate: 100% -- Attempts: 27942 -- Hits: 27942 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 1540 -- Max hit: 13616 -- DMG to PC: 0

    Min hit- 468

    So, wiht buffs and a bard the dps difference becomes 547 and the min hit difference is 215~
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  26. #26
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    Average hit difference is far less, though. What bard songs are playing during that parse?
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  27. #27
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    aria of orator, war march, hykast's song, arcane adress, also had symp. of battle on too.
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  28. #28
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    My guess is that we will find that fero in combination with buffs basically shifts the average hit up slowly (based on hit distribution) and as such the more swings you have, the greater the impact: no haste has little impact, just spell haste more impact, and max overhaste with spell haste w/ a bard has the greatest impact. But the bottom line is that 547/13,900 makes it a 3.9% bump, which is still well within the randomness of our hits. But we should expect dminishing returns for this unless they tweak it in future Fero versions.

    As a side note, my guess is that having max AA for relevant ones also has an impact on the benefit. If you found a group monk with none of the tripple attack aa or other AA which effect that area of our damage, they would probably gain more benefit.

    Rten/Frank

    PS. My original parse had a 3.3% change...

    PPS. Thank you for running the extra parses Kajok.
    Rten/Frank

  29. #29
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    It's a matter of everything put together at this stage of the game. Our weapons are 18 delay and we have 216%haste. We'remhitting so much faster than we were back in the day feel was introduced. Also the skills have skyrocketed since then and our double attack, dual wield, triple attack skills being astronomical combined with that low delay is make the focus negligible.

    Cleave was also mentioned as it has also skyrocketed and the damage mods of it, combined with th massively increased weapon damage, hello118 damage hath vs the 40 damage of TSS, is making that min hit mod so incredibly small.
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  30. #30
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    I have redone a parse to see the impacts of Worn Ferocity on us. My reason for doing this is that currently with my old cultural gear my Ferocity Item is on my wrist, and I got a second raid bracer last night, so I wanted to see if I should hold out using it till I got a new item (legs) that have fero before I started using it.

    Parse done against Combat Dummy Geza
    Str 1492/435
    Dex 1446/420
    Atk 6465
    Cleave +133 (I am in process of upgrading out cultural finally)
    Haste with OH at 225%
    Buffs: Mammoth Force Rk3, Preeminent Foresight rk3, Insistent Focusing rk3, Speed of the Sviir rk3, Shared Merciless Ferocity rk3, Symphony of Battle, Battle Fury, Fists of Fury, Shout of the Predator rk3, Strength of the Bosquestalker rk3, Myrmidon’s Skill XI (think these are only that mattered)
    Personal Tribute: Arm of Power II, Arm of Hero, Eyes of the Hunter, Fury of Combat and Hero’s Deftness
    Trophy Tribute: Essence of Talendor, Essence of the Fallen, Trophy of the Breedin and Trophy of the Tree
    Weapons Royal Thex Katar 130/18 and Possessed Dreadstone Master’s Katar 126/18
    Using worn Fero XII in wrist

    /tell Rten Rten -vs- Combat Dummy Geza: -- DMG: 108784529 -- DPS: 19278 -- Scaled: 19278 -- Punch: 108185551 -- DirDmg: 598978 -- Non-crit rate: 75.6% -- crit rate: 24.4% -- Hits: 45738 -- Min Punch 1190 -- Avg Hit: 2378 -- Max hit: 5271 – Time 5643 Seconds



    For the next test I have swapped in Surpressed Etheric Soulforge Wristguard, which has minor effects on H-Stats listed below, but the major impact is that I will have no worn ferocity.

    Str 1496/439
    Dex 1449/423
    Atk 6469
    Cleave +133 (I am in process of upgrading out cultural finally)
    Haste with OH at 225%
    Buffs: Mammoth Force Rk3, Preeminent Foresight rk3, Insistent Focusing rk3, Speed of the Sviir rk3, Shared Merciless Ferocity rk3, Symphony of Battle, Battle Fury, Fists of Fury, Shout of the Predator rk3, Strength of the Bosquestalker rk3, Myrmidon’s Skill XI (think these are only that mattered)
    Personal Tribute: Arm of Power II, Arm of Hero, Eyes of the Hunter, Fury of Combat and Hero’s Deftness
    Trophy Tribute: Essence of Talendor, Essence of the Fallen, Trophy of the Breedin and Trophy of the Tree
    Weapons Royal Thex Katar 130/18 and Possessed Dreadstone master’s Katar 126/18
    Using NO worn Fero
    /tell Rten Rten -vs- Combat Dummy Geza: -- DMG: 586444248 -- DPS: 18360 -- Scaled: 18360 -- Punch: 582922553 -- DirDmg: 3521695 -- Non-crit rate: 75.8% -- crit rate: 24.2% -- Attempts: 248162 -- Hits: 248162 -- Min punch 1035 Avg Hit: 2363 -- Max hit: 5271 – Time 31942 Seconds

    So the difference now is that Fero XII raises our min punch by 155 for me and still has a low distribution impact, the average punch with Fero climbed by a whopping 15. Fero added 918 DPS to me… out of 19278 that is a 4.8% bump to DPS. As was conjectured previously in this thread, this is probably more important on very high AC mobs and less important on trash type mobs. But sub 5% is well within the standard /RNG of the game for any fights we have. Worn Ferocity continues to be something that you should have, but has painfully little impact on us in our sustained DPS.
    Rten/Frank

  31. #31
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    thing you gotta remember is, way back before some of our dps fixes, when we were hurting so badly, a couple hundred dps was huge for us...

    I think the game has just become so stale and lack of imagination from devs is really ruinining the expectations of anything cool ever coming out and changes to be so tiny the carrot needs a magnifying glass to chase...


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