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Thread: NIghtly parse results

  1. #1
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    Default NIghtly parse results

    First night of parsing is complete, and I stand before you admitting I was wrong.



    The three characters: Leenyne, Doublehorse, Sincro



    We were in the same group, we did not have a bard. We used equivalent buffs for haste and attack. Tonight was a 55 mob parse, consisting of 1201 seconds of common fight time. We used no disciplines for the duration of this parse. Raid buffed attack values were 2206 for me, 2149 for DH, 2052 for Leenyne. I used YALP to capture damage, then hand-calculated fight times. Parse results:

    Sincro 476883 damage, 397.07 dps

    Doublehorse 316316 damage, 263.37 dps

    Leenyne 314296 damage, 261.69 dps



    This tells me two things: First, DH's damage is over 50 points too low. Second, my damage is 31 dps high. I base this on the 1.0-1.2-1.4 ratio previously offered.



    While using only a single night of parsing does not offer a definitive answer to any question, the initial results certainly confirm the fears of monks that warrior damage is too great relative to monk damage. However, it seems to me that rather then nerfing warrior damage (and therefore my own by a significant amount to retain any semblance of balance) we should instead advocate a significant upgrade to monk dps. I don't like calling for nerfs. Never have.



    I'll post a few more of these nightly runs, to get a better overall picture, but I said I would post some results as soon as I could, and I would be remiss to withold calculated data.


    -Sinc



    If we're raiding, and you're dead wondering why you haven't been rezzed, its probably because you didn't consent me.</p>

  2. #2
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    The 1.0, 1.2, 1.4 numbers simply need to go, since everything else has gone.



    1.0, 1.4, 1.6 is better, after all, we have 2 more (dps) classes since these old standards where used.




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  3. #3
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    was the warrior tanking also?

    /laugh


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  4. #4
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    Sorry, no. The warrior was in dps mode. We used a knight to tank. All three of us were trying to keep on back as much as possible.


    -Sinc



    If we're raiding, and you're dead wondering why you haven't been rezzed, its probably because you didn't consent me.</p>

  5. #5
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>While using only a single night of parsing does not offer a definitive answer to any question, the initial results certainly confirm the fears of monks that warrior damage is too great relative to monk damage.<hr></blockquote>Nice parse but I would be hesitant to make such conclusions. The warrior has maxed AA's, while the monk is missing one of the most important damage boost aa's. Looking at the equipment the warrior has high end stuff like Cleave 5, while the monk has no cleave at all. With maxed VW, Cleave 5 vs no cleave at all would be a 7% diff in dps, but since the monk only has VW 1, it's close to 10%. The monk has Fero III which the warrior lacks but he could be using tribs for this. The mainhand weapons are equal while the offhand weapon is like 2-3% advantage for the warrior counting total damage. The accuracy is 43 for the war, 15 for monk which should be a 3% advantage for the war so if we make the monk equally good as the warrior gearwise and aa wise we would come to a different conclusion:



    263(1.10*1.02*1.03)dps = 304 dps



    Now you can compare this with the war dps and you see that the monk would be ~15% ahead. Now this would be the result if they had similiar gear and aa, however in the endgame the monk will have better weapons than the warrior and he would be +20% ahead of the warrior without any doubt.


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  6. #6
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    Warrior-troll mode **ON**



    Obviously, looking at the warriors magelo, he is a noob and has no idea how to play a warrior. Bugger all hp's and AC. The monk is obviously overpowered, he has over 9k Hp's naked !!!



    Warrior-troll mode **OFF**






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  7. #7
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Warrior-troll mode **ON**



    Obviously, looking at the warriors magelo, he is a noob and has no idea how to play a warrior. Bugger all hp's and AC. The monk is obviously overpowered, he has over 9k Hp's naked !!!



    Warrior-troll mode **OFF**<hr></blockquote>



    I'd guess the troll would say the monk has crap gear and compared with the warrior, he would be correct.


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dem andred>Demandred</A> at: 1/7/05 1:09 am

  8. #8
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    We have enough trolls already thank you.



    And thank you for the information.


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  9. #9
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    The Monk is using a Qvic weapon and a drop from an MPG raid trial. The Warrior is using a Qvic weapon and a drop from an MPG raid trial. So their level of weapons is the same. The Monk has an additional 30 worn ATK, which would make up some of the difference with VW/Cleave as well. The Monk also has +30 combat effects, while the Warrior only has 10, making up even more of the gap (maybe closing it). If you're going to nitpick, it would be good form to address the discrepancies on both sides. I would guess if you added in the accuracy/AA's on the Monk, and took away his combat effects and ATK advantage, his DPS would be pretty close to what he parsed, it would definitely end up being under that 15% number you magically came up with.



    This parse shows that in this case, a Warrior and a Monk with equivalent weapons (level-wise), doing the same DPS. Saying that "well if you had X level of weapons you would do more DPS" is just an insult IMO. Do you mean to say that Monks and Warriors should be equivalent DPS-wise until the Monk gets end-game weapons? For some reason I'm having a hard time accepting that until a Monk is in the top 10% of his server, he shouldn't do significantly more DPS then an equivalent Warrior. When I think of balanced, I think more like 90% of the population, not 10%. If a Warriors role is to tank, and a Monks is to do DPS, with an equivalent level of gear shouldn't the Monk do more (and significantly more) damage? We're not talking a Qvic Warrior here versus a pre-Xegony Monk, we're talking a "tank" class with equivalent level of weapons to a "dps" class, doing roughly the same amount of DPS. Where's the balance part of that?


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  10. #10
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    thanks Sincro for the parse. I parsed in MPG the other day with a warrior ( obviously he was tanking :P ) . He was equipped with a Matchless Silvery Claymore everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=32351 , myself using a Pole of Punishment. No idea how many aa's he had, 260 odd aa's here. Nice Anguish trial weapon vs my NC drop, ( have not gotten the Rime Encrusted Pikstaff as yet for myself ). 49 fights, one red con named in there. Average damage of warrior vs me was 230 vs 200 dps. Attack buffed around 1950 for me, no idea what he had. His peak DPS was 323, mine 320 with innerflame disc triggered. Wizard did around 235 over time, wizard's burst was like 498, but he and the warrior were joking around and the wizard was melee'ing for giggles. Did not get all of the warrior's proc's so DPS was probably a bit higher. I was attacking from the rear, he was from the front.



    Interesting point, 20% of his total 2hs damage ( 134k of 614K ) was critical hits. I was around 7.8%, but I have not maxed all mine.


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  11. #11
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    levels of weapons are not the same although they drop in the same zone you idiot. Most stupid thing I have read in a while, well not counting Xainn dribble. Well damn, maybe even counting his dribble.



    Not only that, you manage to ignore that the war has max aa's, far superior gear, more attack and 45 % haste vs 41 % haste on the monk. Let me put it this way so you might understand. Monk has less haste, has not max offensive aa's, has far less dps enhancing gear and a worse weapon combo.



    Please continue to being completely blind to any kind of logic.

    When parsing you need to have 2 characters that have equal aa's, gear, effects and weapon set ups.



    And that will be a damn hard thing to compare when parsing two classes against each other.








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  12. #12
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    <hr /><blockquote>Quote:<hr>With maxed VW, Cleave 5 vs no cleave at all would be a 7% diff in dps, but since the monk only has VW 1, it's close to 10%. <hr></blockquote>



    I am not sure where you got the % dps for Cleave and and VW. I couldn't find them in the wonderful search tool of this board. I will go with your numbers now, but it would be great if someone could confirm these numbers.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The monk has Fero III which the warrior lacks but he could be using tribs for this.<hr></blockquote>



    We should assume tribute was off for this until Sincro comes back to tell us differently. For fun lets assume Fero III adds 1% dps for the monk because yet again I don't know real parse values for this.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The mainhand weapons are equal while the offhand weapon is like 2-3% advantage for the warrior counting total damage.<hr></blockquote>



    Lets take a closer look at the weapons...



    Warrior

    -Main Thunderclap .73 ratio

    -Offhand Chaotic Black Scimitar .81 ratio



    Monk

    -Main Handwraps of Captured Magic .76 ratio

    -Offhand Seething Fists of Slaughter .68 ratio



    It looks like the monk actually has the weapon advantage. Lets say its a 3% advantage toward the monk.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The accuracy is 43 for the war, 15 for monk which should be a 3% advantage for the war <hr></blockquote>



    I have actually seen parses for this one and indeed 10 accuracy roughly equals 1% dps. Here I agree with your 3% dps calculation.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>if we make the monk equally good as the warrior gearwise and aa wise we would come to a different conclusion



    263(1.10*1.02*1.03)dps = 304 dps

    <hr></blockquote>



    Lets redo this calculation. Keep in mind we are ignoring the +20 combat and +50 attack the monk has over the warrior that Ugle pointed out to us. We will ignore the accuracy monks gain to aa just because this is never available to the warrior like some of the warriors aa are not available to us and should never be considered as an advantage or a loss.



    263(1.10*.97*1.03*.99)dps = 286 dps



    Keep in mind a lot of assumptions were made by me about the difference cleave, ferocity, weapon ratio, and so on have on the dps. The end calculation is closer to a 9% dps lead by the monk.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>however in the endgame the monk will have better weapons than the warrior <hr></blockquote>



    The only endgame weapon the monks have that is above warrior endgame weapons in dps ratio is the epic 2.0.



    Best 2h weapon

    -Warrior Greatsword of Mortification .421 ratio

    -Monk Bone Staff of Wickedness .421 ratio



    The monk 2hb weapon also has 1 magic dmg on it which makes a small very small change to its ratio from what I calculated.



    One Hand weapons

    Epics

    Warrior Kreljnok's Sword of Eternal Power .63 ratio

    Monk Transcended Fistwraps of Immortality .56 ratio



    Monks do have a nice gap between them and warriors on the epics. But this is the only weapon with that big of a gap. The next best monk and warrior weapons are shown below.



    Warrior Allin's Mace .66 ratio

    Monk Crystal Hilted Shinai .66 ratio



    Again the monk weapon has 1 cold damage on it that improves it's dps slightly. There are plenty of other weapons with this same ratio or close to it for both classes.



    For the most part Monk and Warriors have the same ratio on their endgame weapons excluding the epic which about 5 monks serverwide have at the moment.



    I would love to see more parses done by other people. One person doing parses isn't enough to prove or disprove the dps gap between classes. I am going to download yalp and do a few parses at my raids to see how dps is there. I encourage more of you to go out and do your own non-bias parses.



    Lobsang



    edited to make the links work






    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=lob sangtunare>LobsangTunare</A> at: 1/7/05 2:49 am

  13. #13
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The Monk is using a Qvic weapon and a drop from an MPG raid trial. The Warrior is using a Qvic weapon and a drop from an MPG raid trial. So their level of weapons is the same.<hr></blockquote>

    This is true, they are of the same level. But there is a much better weapon available for the monk, from the MPG trial, Fangs of serpent 32/21. Imagine this monk wielding this Fang in mainhand and the qvic wep in offhand. It would be quite a boost to his dps.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The Monk also has +30 combat effects, while the Warrior only has 10, making up even more of the gap (maybe closing it).<hr></blockquote>

    To my knowledge combat effects change proc rate. In other words completly neglectable. I'm not sure if procs were included in the parse either.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The Monk has an additional 30 worn ATK, which would make up some of the difference with VW/Cleave as well.<hr></blockquote>

    Thats true, I neglected attack since I simply assumed they would be roughly equal, the monk had 50 more atk so this should be considered. I'm not sure attack matters after a certain point, but if we assume it does we're looking at a 2% difference. So the difference would still be around 15% if we adjust the dps to equal level.



    Putting my own toon here, I'd expect him doing somewhere around 350 dps (29/19, 38/26, Cleave 5, Fero 3 AA's maxed, 8% overhaste). Compare this with the rog dps and I really have nothing to complain about.


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dem andred>Demandred</A> at: 1/7/05 3:11 am

  14. #14
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    LobSang:

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I am not sure where you got the % dps for Cleave and and VW. I couldn't find them in the wonderful search tool of this board. I will go with your numbers now, but it would be great if someone could confirm these numbers.<hr></blockquote>

    You can find a bit more info on crits and cleave here. I also posted my parse results after the patch that fixed cleave, but that post is already gone.



    P.S Fix your quotes in your previous message, it's very hard to read atm.


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  15. #15
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    Thank you Antaran, you pointed out a few things that I didn't know.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Monk has less haste<hr></blockquote>

    Since he said they had same Haste I was figuring that meant 70% Chanter Haste, I didn't know that haste went over 111% and the Warrior being at 115% meant that he swung faster.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>has far less dps enhancing gear<hr></blockquote>

    I wasn't aware that DPS was dependent on armor, I would have factored that in instead of just looking at the weapons. I also wasn't aware that 2052 ATK was better then 2206 ATK, I had always believed that higher ATK was better, perhaps I need to quit having my Shaman cast FA on me, maybe we can duel and he can hit me with a debuff as well.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>a worse weapon combo<hr></blockquote>



    So I guess I'm just clueless on this part as well. From what you're saying, 33/24 is far superior to 38/26, I assume because the Warrior weapon is two less delay. But if that's the case, how do you figure that 26/21 is superior to 25/19? The Monk weapons have a superior ratio in both cases, how does that make them worse? OH I GET IT, IT'S LIKE THE FACT THAT LESS ATK IS BETTER THEN MORE ATK, so a worse ratio does more DPS then a better ratio.



    Edit: Demandred, what's missing from your % calculations is any kind of baseline. I have done the same thing in the past when trying to calculate the effects of +ATK gear. But for instance upping your proc rate on an ED will give you a significantly larger boost then upping your proc rate on a HWoCM. A Cleave difference on a slower, harder hitting weapon will have a different boost then on a lighter hitting but faster weapon. You might be able to determine the % of crits you'll see going from Cleave0 to Cleave5, but the DPS difference is going to depend on several factors.


    Natassi Dogym

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    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ugl e>Ugle</A> at: 1/7/05 3:06 am

  16. #16
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    omg, ugle so rude


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  17. #17
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    ? I thanked him for teaching me something that I didn't know. How was that rude?


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  18. #18
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Demandred, what's missing from your % calculations is any kind of baseline. I have done the same thing in the past when trying to calculate the effects of +ATK gear. But for instance upping your proc rate on an ED will give you a significantly larger boost then upping your proc rate on a HWoCM. A Cleave difference on a slower, harder hitting weapon will have a different boost then on a lighter hitting but faster weapon. You might be able to determine the % of crits you'll see going from Cleave0 to Cleave5, but the DPS difference is going to depend on several factors.<hr></blockquote>

    I'm not sure I understand this. Reading this I get the feeling you connect cleave to procs and not critical hit rate. If you neglect damage bonus, cleave will have the same effect on all weapons, namely modifying their damage output by x%. The same is true for atk.



    Now to procs. ED has a 750 proc, of course if you modify this with say 3% it would have a different impact on total dps than modifying a 100 damage proc with 3% simply because the proc dmg of an ED is huge part of its total damage.






    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dem andred>Demandred</A> at: 1/7/05 4:14 am

  19. #19
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    Lobsang wrote:

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Lets take a closer look at the weapons...



    Warrior

    -Main Thunderclap .73 ratio

    -Offhand Chaotic Black Scimitar .81 ratio



    Monk

    -Main Handwraps of Captured Magic .76 ratio

    -Offhand Seething Fists of Slaughter .68 ratio



    It looks like the monk actually has the weapon advantage. Lets say its a 3% advantage toward the monk.<hr></blockquote>



    This is true. I'm not sure what I did but I messed up the weapons for sure. The weapons are indeed in favor for the monk and probably by more than 3% assuming 90% effectiveness on offhand and average hit being around 4*base damage I'd say 6%. Another thing I neglected is kick damage. Since it's a part of total damage we can't simply multiply the monk dps with 0.94 to make up for the weapon advantage the monk has, so for simplicity we can keep the monk weapon advantage at 3% Like Lob sugested. So I resign, Lobsang is correct, we seem to land at less than 10% dps advantage over the warrior after normalizing gear and aa.



    Edit- Lobsang, not LobSang ;)


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p201.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dem andred>Demandred</A> at: 1/7/05 6:47 am

  20. #20
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>First night of parsing is complete, and I stand before you admitting I was wrong.



    The three characters: Leenyne, Doublehorse, Sincro



    We were in the same group, we did not have a bard. We used equivalent buffs for haste and attack. Tonight was a 55 mob parse, consisting of 1201 seconds of common fight time. We used no disciplines for the duration of this parse. Raid buffed attack values were 2206 for me, 2149 for DH, 2052 for Leenyne. I used YALP to capture damage, then hand-calculated fight times. Parse results:

    Sincro 476883 damage, 397.07 dps

    Doublehorse 316316 damage, 263.37 dps

    Leenyne 314296 damage, 261.69 dps



    This tells me two things: First, DH's damage is over 50 points too low. Second, my damage is 31 dps high. I base this on the 1.0-1.2-1.4 ratio previously offered.



    While using only a single night of parsing does not offer a definitive answer to any question, the initial results certainly confirm the fears of monks that warrior damage is too great relative to monk damage. However, it seems to me that rather then nerfing warrior damage (and therefore my own by a significant amount to retain any semblance of balance) we should instead advocate a significant upgrade to monk dps. I don't like calling for nerfs. Never have.



    I'll post a few more of these nightly runs, to get a better overall picture, but I said I would post some results as soon as I could, and I would be remiss to withold calculated data.<hr></blockquote>







    Yep I wouldn't say 1 night's worth of parsing is enough to conclude monk DPS must be boosted (or warrior DPS must be nerfed <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p"> ) or anything else really.



    But it does show that warrior DPS can easily match monk DPS without there needing to be HUGE disparities in gear, AA's or even levels.







    This in itself suggests that the warrior/monk DPS issue is much, much, MUCH more widely spread than the warrior/monk mitigation issue ever was (at the very, very most it affected >5%, and to be more reasonable and correct it probably only really affected >>1% of people in the game).







    Also IF you compared that offensive DPS to the relative defensive DPS, you'll see an even bigger issue, I think.

    That is if you compared the ratio of DPS given out (offensive) and taken when tanking (defensive) it would, Im sure, be very much in the warriors favour.

    Meaning if you take a warrior > monk then in many situations you'll not be losing out on offensive DPS by very much, if at all, BUT you'll be getting a much superior defensive option if needed as well.



    Which really wacks monks from both ends of the spectrum <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":("> , as they are neither top DPS nor top tanks (nor indeed top pullers in many places) these days. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":">





















    I remember saying along with others back at the TIME of the mitigation nerf that if monk mitigation is going to be nerfed then either DPS or avoidance needed to be increased proportionally (as I felt monks were pretty balanced between war/rog barring the hardcap AC issue).

    The game has moved on since then and if anything the monks position has got WORSE than it was just after the mitigation nerf (in offence, defence AND pulling <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":("> ).



    Potential solutions to this issue?



    - Nerfing warrior DPS (the logic here follows that of the monk mitigation nerf EXACTLY however nerfing monks did NOTHING to fix warriors, only later fixing warriors actually fixed warriors. So I think only fixing monk will fix monks and nerfing just sucks <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> ).



    - Seriously boosting monk DPS (certainly a decent idea - the only potential problem with this is that for it to be genuinely effective the boost will need to be in base damage and of a significant amount, and it may well put rogues into a similar position with monks).



    - Boosting monks somewhat both offensively and defensively (either a full mitigation repeal and a smaller base damage boost OR a significant avoidance boost [which increases monk survivability more without increasing tankablility as much] and a smaller base damage boost).




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  21. #21
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    Default Re: NIghtly parse results

    Thing i wonder is, why should there be a large gap between rogue and monk dps?

    Originally it was rogues super dps/sucky tank, warrior sucky dps/super tank, and monk in between in both areas.

    Now monks are sucky tanks too, and i dare to say that rogues provide greater utility than monks. Face it, pulling is dead, Dead, DEAD, i think the last time i pulled something that actually had to be splitted or would wipe us was the Fennin script, everything since then has been "know which mob to shoot" instead of actual splitting. Currently we have everyone, from warriors over clerics to a hyperactive necro pulling, they're happy with it, and i let them believe they're actually "pulling".

    My current utility is surviving the wipes and tease the guild with it, and thats it.

    Then there's always the argument that rogue damage is so high cause its situational. I don't know about others, but i'm always behind the mob too (the "rogue-lite" joke isn't coming from nowhere). And there's also always a tank that allows the rogue to do his situational damage all the time.


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