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Thread: Monk DPS

  1. #121
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    Hmm no mention on using crystalpalm during zerker overhaste, or did I miss that.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by silenzhandz View Post
    Hmm no mention on using crystalpalm during zerker overhaste, or did I miss that.
    Technically it's hundred hands, not overhaste, but no, I didn't make mention of that in particular. I do mention that, in general, other class abilities tend to be centered around the shaman epic, and so on.

    But basically if I include things like warcries in my burn descriptions, I would have to also include things like Fierce Eye, specific bard songs, and so on - and, as Im sure you've noticed, my guide is already a little long. The shaman epic is the strongest single attributable dps ability, and the one that every other melee requires. So I chose it as my center point for disc placement. As you become more experienced with your particular burn group and how they cycle their abilities, you may wish to make some executive decisions as to your own burn order.

    In the vast majority of cases, however, I believe my advice is sufficient to keep you extremely competitive. I did my best to strike a balance between being thorough enough and too thorough. But there's always definitely ways to improve.

    P.S. With reference to the Zerker hundred hands specifically, it is presumable that this will occur at the very start of the fight - in which case Crystalpalm should pretty much always receive the full benefit (unless you stack Speed and Heel together, and use Crystalpalm later. That's another issue).

    It's honestly a tough call. Speedfocus will always conflict with other hundred hands, and Scaled/Heel - while stacking with other Hundred hands - offer no specific multiplicative gain from hundred hands abilities. So, you can prioritize Crystalpalm during the initial burn so that it takes advantage of the warcry, or you can prioritize Speedfocus which has a higher base dps to start with, and make sure it gets everything it can to stack with.

    No matter what, you're going to run into stacking conflicts. Which conflicts do you try to minimize, and which ones do you just accept? Well, I've presented a few options, but I think ultimately that's a question you'll have to consider for yourself - if you even bother to put that much thought into it (personally, Im satisfied with just worrying about what the shamans are doing. Some better Monks than I may go into greater detail here).
    Last edited by Swami; 07-25-2010 at 02:34 AM.

  3. #123
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    Generally our dps groups will tie shaman epic and bard epic together, I generally try and time crystalpalm with the overhaste of one or the other zerker/bard, I believe there isn't too much new info I am missing, but for sure I can try and fine tune.

    There is however one thing which I do not do, I remembered it a while ago, got some, but then rarely use them, and that is poison potions. Though I cannot believe that is a huge chunk of dps, or is it?

  4. #124
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    They're not. I can't really hazard too accurate a guess as I've never *specifically* parsed them out, but I would wager in the area of 400-600 dps, which doesn't scale (unless maybe you're silly and use first spire. Lol).

    If you're using Crystalpalm first, make sure you're obviously getting two calanins in on it. It's also probably wise - if you really just wanna show off - to make sure your first Cala lands *after* another monk's, so it gets the boost. It screws over that other monk but, well, someone has to be first. Also, this may sound weird, but if the fight is going to end in 72 seconds or less, don't be afraid to actually click off Crystalpalm and activate Speedfocus to take up the rest of the duration of the fight. Speedfocus is a substantially more powerful disc than CP.

    Lastly, make sure you're always running Drunken Monkey prior to discs, especially SF. DM really is a crappy disc, but at least it gets put to relatively decent work with SF, the same way Zan Fi, Second Spire, and Infusion do. I'll be honest, I still frequently forget to have DM running - especially if I open with CP - prior to SF. And it does show in the parse results afterwards.

    Silent - if you really are interested in discussing strats, you're more than welcome to actually send me a ;tell drinal.swami whenever you want. We've had our disagreements, but I'll still be glad to offer input if you're willing to have a discussion of it - and, as always, if any of my advice lacks something that you know, and I do not, I will be interested to listen to your feedback also.

  5. #125
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    300 sec fight I did approx 10k, this is normal for me 10-12k, bard/sham, not everything lined up perfectly. Top in raid was 14k I think.

    The magic 20k number people keep banding about, what duration is that?

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by silenzhandz View Post
    The magic 20k number people keep banding about, what duration is that?
    Typically 35-55 seconds from the parses I've seen here.

    IMO - Judging DPS is pretty stupid if you ask me. The only thing that matters is total damage.

  7. #127
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    What do I look for to know the zerker hundred hands is going or fading?

  8. #128
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    replying to a prior question to use dm or sf:

    /disc drunken monkey style rk. II...not drunken monkey discipline rk. II

    /disc speed focus discipline...not /disc speedfocus discipline

    simple misnaming or spaces in wrong place will cause disc to not work with key.

  9. #129
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    Setting up macros like that is the most annoying thing ever.

    Also beware of macros that use more than one /disc line in them, as /discipline causes a ton of lag and can screw up a macro, whereas /alt activate tends to be much easier to get away with.

    As for the hundred hands, it's called Ancient Cry of Chaos.

    Cast on you: The cry of chaos fills you with berserker energy.
    Cast on other: Someone is filled with chaotic strength.
    Wears off: The chaotic energy fades.
    Game Description: Lets loose a fierce battle cry that inspires your group, increasing their attack speed and attack rating.
    The duration for those 20k+ burns do tend to be a minute or less, although it's not unheard of for a 2 minute burn to still exceed 20k or come very close to it (it's just generally quite rare).

    And as for judging Total Damage vs DPS, it's kinda a tossup. It's a lot tougher to compare yourself against other monks (particularly if they're from other guilds) simply by using Total Damage. In fact, I'd say its impossible. If it takes my guild twice as long to do an event, and I burn at 75% of what a better monk would do, then I would actually end up doing 50% more total damage than a monk who burned at full capacity for half the time. DPS, however, takes time into account (Damage Per Second), and so is a much simpler comparison.

    The only time DPS isn't really a good indicator is when the person either died or started like halfway through the fight, and burned stupid high, but because they were total slackers at the start, their total damage will be gimp. I see this from a lot of wizards who, I think, intentionally hold back from dpsing at all until 15-20 seconds in to artificially pump up their dps, at the sacrifice of their total damage. Which is retarded.
    Last edited by Swami; 07-26-2010 at 07:25 PM.

  10. #130
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    Saw you mention Thunderkck. Thought I was the only one that still used that one.

    I have used Thunderkick for sometime now for a quick burst of dps in groups. Use Zan Fi, Second Spire, Drunken Monkey, Thunderkick then Calanin's, FK, and Stunning kick till it ends. Makes a nice one key quick burst and all with a 10 minute refresh and not to bad on the endurance (about 4k used over 60 seconds).
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  11. #131
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    is the increased 20% chance to hit with FK on thunderkick better than another 75% dmg mod from ashenhand? i have been using ashenhand when i have a long fight to fill in when my other timers are down. often tied to heel when it repops. maybe this needs its own topic but does anyone have any numbers on how much our specials miss % wise to see if the 20% chance to hit will overcome the added 75% from ashenhand?

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  12. #132
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    Default BP click

    Swami, you said

    "*Note: If you use the SoD BP clickie still (the UF BP click is far superior)"

    Is the UF group or raid BP?
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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manual View Post
    Swami, you said

    "*Note: If you use the SoD BP clickie still (the UF BP click is far superior)"

    Is the UF group or raid BP?
    Don't think it matters. All levels of UF BP click should be superior to SoD clicks.

  14. #134
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    I think the main reason uf bp group or raid is better than SoD is cause SoD bp click doesn't stack with Zanfi...so you can use all skills at once with uf bp ontop but can't with SoD. Plus the dmg total of proc add is higher with UF.

  15. #135
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    Yeah, what Archus and Copper said Re: UF BP Click.

    As for Thunder, Im going to make the assumption that Ashen is better all around, even despite the 20% mod. Though, it is not something I can recall specifically parsing. Either way, you should have probably gotten yourself Scaledfist regardless, which is an upgrade over both.

    And next expansion, at least as far as the Lucy Data seems to show, we will likely get a new upgrade to Scaledfist. In which case you will be using that.

  16. #136
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    I just wanted to mention that I will be working on updating this parse guide with HoT being out. I need to run a couple more parses over and above what I did in beta, so it will take a little time, but it will be done. In the mean time, if anyone has suggestions for what to change with HoT's NDA now lifted and going forward, please do so. Ill certainly take everything into consideration.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Copperfist View Post
    I think the main reason uf bp group or raid is better than SoD is cause SoD bp click doesn't stack with Zanfi...so you can use all skills at once with uf bp ontop but can't with SoD. Plus the dmg total of proc add is higher with UF.
    Not entirely true. There is landing issues... sorta, but it no way do they not stack - well, maybe "technically"-.

    If you have zan fi running (in the buff bar) your sod tunic will not land when clicked and won't be locked out. However, if you click your tunic (have it in the buff bar) you can then pop zan fi and it will land; giving you both the benefits.

    I always pop my tunic right b4 engage or right b4 we disc.
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  18. #138
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    Activating Zan Fi will remove SoD BP buff click if it is on and will block SoD BP click if Zan Fi is up. Unless this has changed but, pretty sure it hasn't.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by nduma View Post
    Activating Zan Fi will remove SoD BP buff click if it is on and will block SoD BP click if Zan Fi is up. Unless this has changed but, pretty sure it hasn't.
    If Zan Fi is up first the BP cannot be clicked. If BP is clicked first then Zan Fi can be activated and there are buff icons for both. I'm not sure if it is blocked or not.
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  20. #140
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    I'll be honest. Im probably going to remove all reference to the SoD BP. It's such a terrible BP for us anyway, and both UF and now HoT seriously upgraded it. Let's just let the SoD BP fiasco be forgotten.

  21. #141
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    Has this changed Significantly with VoA or is it more of just plug replacements in for the old versions?

    The monk has recently become my main and my DPS SUCKS for a 95 with HoT T4 gear ... so I am kinda wondering what im doing wrong.

  22. #142
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    Pretty much the same though you have tigers balance, crane stance, and a new bp effect to exploit also. Tigers balance will last through both speed and diamond palm, so start it with speed. Bp click kind of takes care of itself,though it's best if it fades during diamond palm to mod the extra kick proc when bp fades. You can force it by clicking it off, if you have to.

    Crane stance is helped by modifiers. In group grind situation, it's good to use with thunder kick since they have the same refresh. On a big burn, you get the most out of it with ironfist, so you can run ironfist at least long enough for crane, then clik it off and switch to the better discs. Of course you also want to have the synergy debuf on the mob first since it also mods crane kick. It's possible to get a couple 300k crane kicks.

  23. #143
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    would someone be kind to list the current (VoA) Monk burn order?
    -Kelefane

  24. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelefane View Post
    would someone be kind to list the current (VoA) Monk burn order?
    What I do (and it may nto be correct so correct me if I am missing something).
    Click BP before fight starts (soemtimes click a poison too)

    With shaman epic I hit my Burn Key.
    Zan Fi
    Drunken Fist
    Infusion
    Second Spire
    Speed Focus

    When Speed focus fades I hit Drunken Fist again, then Ironfist disc, Veil and Crane stance.
    If it is going to be a fast fight I click off Ironfist and go with Diamond Palm, if it is going to be a longer fight I let ironfist run its duration.

    Long fight I wait for next Shaman epic and use Diamond Palm, and then when it fades Heel of Koji.

    Hit drunken fist when it is up as well as Cloud of Fists.

    I am not sure really when best to use tiger stance so I Usualy click it somewhere near the end of speed focus.
    Going for AC before AC was cool.

  25. #145
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    Tiger should last through both speed and diamond if you run one right after the other, so I've been clicking it with speed. You left out the monk ae thing (name escapes me) for when ae's are ok. Oh, and monk epic click a moment before engage.

  26. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorkeyah View Post
    Tiger should last through both speed and diamond if you run one right after the other, so I've been clicking it with speed. You left out the monk ae thing (name escapes me) for when ae's are ok. Oh, and monk epic click a moment before engage.
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  27. #147
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    So most of you guys start out with Speed Focus on any given burn huh? Any reason to not start out with Diamond and then go into speed? Or is it fight dependent? There isnt a set burn order for all situations?
    -Kelefane

  28. #148
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    You start with your best because you or the fight might not last long enough for the next. Speed still seems the best.

  29. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelefane View Post
    So most of you guys start out with Speed Focus on any given burn huh? Any reason to not start out with Diamond and then go into speed? Or is it fight dependent? There isnt a set burn order for all situations?
    If you know the fight will last long enough for two shaman clicks, then you can start with diamond palm on the first click. If it will only be long enough for one, you want speed focus going with shaman epic for the entire time. Shaman epic does not last long enough for both Diamond palm and speed focus.
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  30. #150
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    If your lagging or know you lag in a certain fight etc go with Dpalm over speed. lag hurts speed hella more.

    but evenly speed just beats palm but not much nowadays.

  31. #151
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    with our new AA's with RoF 2.0. it seems like speedfocus might drop down in order now. has anyone done testing of the best burn order now?

    Zan Fi
    Drunken Fist
    Infusion
    Second Spire
    Heel?

  32. #152
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    Infusion/second spire still belong with speed focus, unless the fight is so short that you can't get in Heel, Terrorpalm, and Speed Focus. You want Zan Fi to be on all of them. Heel is by far the better disc though, between it and SF.

  33. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanecho View Post
    Infusion/second spire still belong with speed focus
    why? i havent repurchased iot/2nd yet, but whenever I did have them I just popped them when they were up.


  34. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nedrom View Post
    why? i havent repurchased iot/2nd yet, but whenever I did have them I just popped them when they were up.
    Because they stack. IoT boosts damge and can be used with discs because it is not a disc. The damage boost doesn't stack with percent damage boosting discs like terrorpalm, so it's best to use with speedfocus. Without it, speedfocus is pretty crappy. However, if you're just grinding, you can use IoT by itself every time it pops if you want, or at least in-between usages with speedfocus since it recycles faster.

    Second spire adds some damage that also stacks, though it's not a lot. You get more out of it with speedfocus.

    Some things were traditionally used with speedfocus because it was our best burn that we went all in on, but now there are other discs that are better so it's debatable whether some of the things we used with speedfocus might instead be used with other discs if they stack rather than saving them for speedfocus.

    For instance, if heel is the best disc now, and since it does nothing for h2h, you might combine it with other things that at least stack with the h2h damage you're doing while using heel, such as 2nd spire and IoT, but only if you're not planning on using speedfocus any time soon since those abilities still are best exploited with speedfocus.

  35. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorkeyah View Post
    Because they stack. IoT boosts damge and can be used with discs because it is not a disc. The damage boost doesn't stack with percent damage boosting discs like terrorpalm, so it's best to use with speedfocus. Without it, speedfocus is pretty crappy. However, if you're just grinding, you can use IoT by itself every time it pops if you want, or at least in-between usages with speedfocus since it recycles faster.

    Second spire adds some damage that also stacks, though it's not a lot. You get more out of it with speedfocus.

    Some things were traditionally used with speedfocus because it was our best burn that we went all in on, but now there are other discs that are better so it's debatable whether some of the things we used with speedfocus might instead be used with other discs if they stack rather than saving them for speedfocus.

    For instance, if heel is the best disc now, and since it does nothing for h2h, you might combine it with other things that at least stack with the h2h damage you're doing while using heel, such as 2nd spire and IoT, but only if you're not planning on using speedfocus any time soon since those abilities still are best exploited with speedfocus.
    I use Zan Fi and 1st Spire with Heel now.

    Only thing I use with Speed is IoT now. So sad.

    I have not parsed 1st in the last three years, but in the past i did multi-hour parses on it and it was a zero DPS boost, with 4 procs going. I plan to re-parse it, but am using it with Heel for now because it's SUPPOSED to make a difference.

  36. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yyevil View Post
    I use Zan Fi and 1st Spire with Heel now.

    Only thing I use with Speed is IoT now. So sad.

    I have not parsed 1st in the last three years, but in the past i did multi-hour parses on it and it was a zero DPS boost, with 4 procs going. I plan to re-parse it, but am using it with Heel for now because it's SUPPOSED to make a difference.
    Qulas parsed it on beta and it did nothing, second will still be better

  37. #157
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    1st spire has never been useful since day 1 afaik


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yyevil View Post
    I use Zan Fi and 1st Spire with Heel now.

    Only thing I use with Speed is IoT now. So sad.

    I have not parsed 1st in the last three years, but in the past i did multi-hour parses on it and it was a zero DPS boost, with 4 procs going. I plan to re-parse it, but am using it with Heel for now because it's SUPPOSED to make a difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by sensei savager View Post
    Qulas parsed it on beta and it did nothing, second will still be better
    Quote Originally Posted by Nedrom View Post
    1st spire has never been useful since day 1 afaik
    Yeah I know it used to suck. I had that it sucked in my sig for the last 3-4 years after the parses i did during SoD. But I had a margin of hope that it might had been fixed or made useful in the last couple of yearts since i took an 18 month break. Always the optimist, that's me.

  39. #159
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    One fight I did well on I started with terrorpalm since a beast hit his HH thing, and I was a bit behind another monk for awhile (and others) at that point. I'm not sure what the other monk openned with.

    Then I used eye while shaman epic was recycling. Then I used heel on the second epic click and I surged ahead of the other monk at some point later in the fight. I forget where I mixed in speed and ironfist exactly. End result was I was second on that parse behind a beast.

    I tried opening with heel on another first (second dragon in kael raid), but failed to make any eye popping numbers with it because of various problems I alluded to in other thread. Maybe I'll get a chance at a good burn in tov at some point. There are some simple parse fights there.

  40. #160
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    Default 1st Spire Parse ...

    Did a quick test to parse 1st Spire (both parses exactly 10 mins long...)

    Parse 1: 600 secs without 1st Spire

    Combat Dummy Beza on 22.04.2013
    Zzlaarr - 173
    --- Brell's Blessed Aloe Balm - 50
    --- Fists of Fury - 30
    --- Frightful Force - 40
    --- Thunderfoot - 53
    Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

    Parse 2: 600 secs with 1st Spire

    Combat Dummy Beza on 22.04.2013
    Zzlaarr - 123
    --- Brell's Blessed Aloe Balm - 34
    --- Fists of Fury - 26
    --- Frightful Force - 29
    --- Thunderfoot - 34

    Produced by GamParse v1.0.3


    And no, I did not mix up the parses! More procs without 1st Spire!



    Surprised about this I ran a 2nd test sample with same settings:


    Parse 3: 601 secs without 1st Spire

    Combat Dummy Beza on 22.04.2013 601 secs

    Zzlaarr - 140
    --- Brell's Blessed Aloe Balm - 37
    --- Fists of Fury - 33
    --- Frightful Force - 33
    --- Thunderfoot - 37

    Produced by GamParse v1.0.3



    Parse 4: 599 secs with 1st Spire
    Combat Dummy Beza on 22.04.2013 599 secs

    Zzlaarr - 143
    --- Brell's Blessed Aloe Balm - 48
    --- Fists of Fury - 22
    --- Frightful Force - 37
    --- Thunderfoot - 36

    Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

    Still, nowhere a 28% proc rate increase to see for 1st Spire (Rank 3)

    In both test samples the parse without 1st Spire was more DPS also.
    Parse 1 was an extremely lucky RNG I guess but in fact, 1st Spire does nothing for your DPS.
    Last edited by Zzlaarr; 04-22-2013 at 12:23 PM.

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