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Thread: Monk DPS

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunchyne View Post
    As you can see here, it looks like First Spire would beat out Second Spire if you have Lynx and/or Arcane Aria running. However, if you are burning Speedfocus, it would still be more beneficial to use Second Spire, as the damage stacks with Zan Fi (and hopefully DM).
    Ok I could be absolutely wrong here, but I thought the hundred hands effect from Speefocus was one of the only disciplines/abilities that would increase procs beyond their natural proc rate? Thus the reason why I suggested testing the spires with IoT Zan Fi and Speedfocus. If it is not the case that the Hundred Hands effect makes you able to proc more then yes 2nd+ZF would be better obviously. I'm going to take a nap so maybe I'll just do this myself. hehe

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yyevil View Post
    Ok I could be absolutely wrong here, but I thought the hundred hands effect from Speefocus was one of the only disciplines/abilities that would increase procs beyond their natural proc rate? Thus the reason why I suggested testing the spires with IoT Zan Fi and Speedfocus. If it is not the case that the Hundred Hands effect makes you able to proc more then yes 2nd+ZF would be better obviously. I'm going to take a nap so maybe I'll just do this myself. hehe
    That's not my understanding. However, I could be completely wrong.

  3. #83
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    HH effects won't affect proc rate positively as far as I know. The faster you are swinging, the less chance you have to proc during each swing and never heard of anything regarding HH effects and proc rates prior to this.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by nduma View Post
    His original buff list said Unity Rank 3 - which unless he clicked it off is Mammoth Rank 3 which is a 8% modifier.

    So the Second Spire parse has that when it's run.

    Zan Fi is adding a 7% boost which would explain why overall it's only a 130ish DPS boost from the Second Spire Parse
    ok last I checked 7% adds more then 0. ignore dps as it doesn't mean squat when comparing + damage imo, minimum hit is the best way to measure. so he says minimum base is 181. with second spire it is 218, with just zan fi its 221 - sorry something is missing here. the damage added from zan fi is 40 so the 221 makes sense but its missing 7%. so either mammoth strength is not letting zan fi do its thing or something else is going on. Also second spire + zan fi is 258 which is fine is 218+40 but where is the 7%?

    so yeah do we have an issue with mammoth strength? that would suck but something definately doesn't seem right

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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by zzam View Post
    ok last I checked 7% adds more then 0. ignore dps as it doesn't mean squat when comparing + damage imo, minimum hit is the best way to measure. so he says minimum base is 181. with second spire it is 218, with just zan fi its 221 - sorry something is missing here. the damage added from zan fi is 40 so the 221 makes sense but its missing 7%. so either mammoth strength is not letting zan fi do its thing or something else is going on. Also second spire + zan fi is 258 which is fine is 218+40 but where is the 7%?

    so yeah do we have an issue with mammoth strength? that would suck but something definately doesn't seem right
    It's a good point, something I didn't consider. The only things I can think of that might answer that question are one - the 7% added just enough to make the math work out exact, or two - the 7% extra melee damage doesn't affect minimum hits. I don't know enough about how the multipliers work to tell you off hand. Also, I guess it could be possible that Mammoth Str is overwriting Zan Fi's bonus, even though Zan Fi is higher.

    Here are the relevant numbers.

    Base DPS Parse

    181 minimum punch
    631 maximum punch
    451 average normal punch

    Zan Fi Parse

    221 minimum punch (181 + 40)
    710 maximum punch (710 - 631 = 79)
    520 average normal punch (520 - 451 = 69)

  6. #86
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    yeah I dunno seems off
    it doesn't change burning at all for me it jsut doesn't make sense =/

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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by zzam View Post
    ok last I checked 7% adds more then 0. ignore dps as it doesn't mean squat when comparing + damage imo, minimum hit is the best way to measure. so he says minimum base is 181. with second spire it is 218, with just zan fi its 221 - sorry something is missing here. the damage added from zan fi is 40 so the 221 makes sense but its missing 7%. so either mammoth strength is not letting zan fi do its thing or something else is going on. Also second spire + zan fi is 258 which is fine is 218+40 but where is the 7%?

    so yeah do we have an issue with mammoth strength? that would suck but something definately doesn't seem right
    Well I didn't realize you were asking why the min hit with Zan Fi wasn't a lot higher, thought you were referring to why the DPS wasn't way higher with the 15% bonus.

    As for the min hit. The min hit isn't mod'd by %dmg modifiers. If you look at at Ferocity 7 or 8, there is a specific focus used to increase the min hit dmg.

    The normal hits are modified by the %dmg modifier and thus why you see the average/max punch be greater than the +40 dmg of Zan Fi.

  8. #88
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    so basically its lost behind a bunch of calculations

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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by nduma View Post
    Well I didn't realize you were asking why the min hit with Zan Fi wasn't a lot higher, thought you were referring to why the DPS wasn't way higher with the 15% bonus.

    As for the min hit. The min hit isn't mod'd by %dmg modifiers. If you look at at Ferocity 7 or 8, there is a specific focus used to increase the min hit dmg.

    The normal hits are modified by the %dmg modifier and thus why you see the average/max punch be greater than the +40 dmg of Zan Fi.
    There ya go, learn something every day. Thanks nduma. I figured it just wasn't modified, but wasn't sure.

  10. #90
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    So are we back to running them all on a speed focus burn? heh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorkeyah View Post
    So are we back to running them all on a speed focus burn? heh
    Yep - looks like all 3 Zan Fi, Second and DM +dmg stack.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunchyne View Post
    That's not my understanding. However, I could be completely wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by nduma View Post
    HH effects won't affect proc rate positively as far as I know. The faster you are swinging, the less chance you have to proc during each swing and never heard of anything regarding HH effects and proc rates prior to this.
    Well I'm going to run the parses myself anyway just for sport. They will be.

    With 3197 ATK - Unity 2, Haste 3, Pred 3 but no tracker/feathers

    #1 - IoT, Zan Fi, Speedfocus
    #2 - IoT, Zan Fi, Speedfocus + 1st Spire
    #3 - IoT, Zan Fi, Speedfocus + 2nd Spire

    Just for fun =)

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunchyne View Post
    There ya go, learn something every day. Thanks nduma. I figured it just wasn't modified, but wasn't sure.
    I missed the parse you did with Infusion / Zan Fi / Second spire / DM but, if you look at that - min punch went from 181 to 345. Not sure what Rank Drunken Monkey you were using but, Infusion of Thunder has "Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 75%" in it. Along with the all skills dmg modifier of 75%.

    So 181 (normal min hit) + 37 (Second spire) + 40 (Zan Fi) + 72 (DM Rank 2 H2H +dmg) = 330. For a bit there I was confused as to how you were getting 345 then noticed infusion.

    Sunchyne -did you run your parses with Feroicity 7 or greater? I can't remember if anyone figured out if the min dmg modifier of Infusion works in conjunction with Fero 7+ min dmg modifier.

    Edit: Yyevil - def run the parses, I'd be curious. Also throw in Epic 2.0 click in there.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by nduma View Post
    I missed the parse you did with Infusion / Zan Fi / Second spire / DM but, if you look at that - min punch went from 181 to 345. Not sure what Rank Drunken Monkey you were using but, Infusion of Thunder has "Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 75%" in it. Along with the all skills dmg modifier of 75%.

    So 181 (normal min hit) + 37 (Second spire) + 40 (Zan Fi) + 72 (DM Rank 2 H2H +dmg) = 330. For a bit there I was confused as to how you were getting 345 then noticed infusion.

    Sunchyne -did you run your parses with Feroicity 7 or greater? I can't remember if anyone figured out if the min dmg modifier of Infusion works in conjunction with Fero 7+ min dmg modifier.

    Edit: Yyevil - def run the parses, I'd be curious. Also throw in Epic 2.0 click in there.
    Tier 4.5 tower legs, so yeah, Fero IX, iirc. I was using DM Rank 2 as well.

    And feel free to parse that Yyevil, will cut down on the time I have to take as well, although I still plan on parsing those as well so we have a clear progression with one static character.
    Last edited by Sunchyne; 04-23-2010 at 08:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nduma View Post
    Edit: Yyevil - def run the parses, I'd be curious. Also throw in Epic 2.0 click in there.
    Parses almost done but I forgot the 2.0 click - going to be moot though - 2nd spire is the last one I'm doing and it is blowing first spire away with speedfocus. Like 350 DPS more. I'll post the summaries, but it's looking something like this currently.

    #1 - IoT, Zan Fi, Speedfocus = 6910 DPS
    #2 - IoT, Zan Fi, Speedfocus + 1st Spire = 6960 DPS
    #3 - IoT, Zan Fi, Speedfocus + 2nd Spire = 7400 DPS

    I might go back and try this with epic running on all three. but the fact that 1st spire is barely even registering WITH three proc'ing mechanisms (two weapons and IOT) pretty much speaks to my signature.

  16. #96
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    Yyevil, do you mind running a parse with IoT, Zan Fi, Speedfocus, 2nd spire, and DM (but remove the flying kick buff)?

  17. #97
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    Same as all the others.

    Zan Fi + Second + Drunken Monkey



    Something doesn't add up correctly. Looking back at the other parses :

    Base minimum punch - 181
    Second Spire minimum punch - 218
    Zan Fi minimum punch - 221
    Zan Fi + Second minimum punch - 258 (181 + 40 + 37)
    Zan Fi + Second + Drunken Monkey Rk. II minimum punch - 290 (Should be 181 + 40 + 37 + 72 = 330)

    Lets check 1HB.

    Base minimum crush - 193
    Second Spire minimum crush - 230 (193 + 37)
    Zan Fi minimum crush - 233 (193 + 40)
    Zan Fi + Second minimum punch - 270 (193 + 37 + 40)
    Zan Fi + Second + Drunken Monkey Rk. II minimum punch - 302 (Should be 193 + 37 + 40 + 72 = 342)

    What seems to be happening here is that Drunken Monkey does NOT stack with Zan Fi.

    1HB - 193 + 37 + 72 = 302
    H2H - 181 + 37 + 72 = 290

    What that means to me is that DM basically invalidates Zan Fi, except for the damage modifier. Now, obviously Zan Fi is beneficial to run because of the minimal endurance cost and the long duration, plus it has the damage modifier. However, DM does have the higher +damage. It looks like it would still be beneficial to use them all, the only question is can you get more DPS out of holding Zan Fi until after Speedfocus and using it during normal combat, or combining them both and losing the +damage for the duration of Drunken Monkey. I'm leaning towards using them all together for Speefocus, but I'll definitely be testing it out.
    Last edited by Sunchyne; 04-25-2010 at 12:52 PM.

  18. #98
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    Sunchyne - your post on 4/17 (post number 43 in this thread) with IoT/DM/Zan FI and Second showed min punch of 345, so it seemed like perhaps the DM was being included but, perhaps the added amount of +85 is coming from the 75% min dmg modifier of IoT.

    A parse of just IoT running should show how much that mod adds to the minimum punch.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by nduma View Post
    Sunchyne - your post on 4/17 (post number 43 in this thread) with IoT/DM/Zan FI and Second showed min punch of 345, so it seemed like perhaps the DM was being included but, perhaps the added amount of +85 is coming from the 75% min dmg modifier of IoT.

    A parse of just IoT running should show how much that mod adds to the minimum punch.
    Even so, the numbers would be wrong. That's more than should be there, with DM added in.

  20. #100
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    Is it me, or do the devs seem to be going down a road of making Monks high burst DPS? It sure seems that way anyhow.
    -Kelefane

  21. #101
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    I ran a couple quick parses of my own. First I was trying without Ferocity 7 and since i was just trying to get a quick idea of min hit, thought I could run a base parse to find min hit quickly. Didn't work.

    Anyway, for stacking purposes I ran Drunken Monkey and found max punch to be 677.
    Then I threw on Second spire and max punch was 714. So DM and Second do stack

    Then I took both off and I ran a parse with Zan Fi - max punch was 683
    Then I added DM to Zan Fi and max punch was 715.

    So Zan Fi and DM don't seem to stack for some reason.

  22. #102
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    Same as all the others.

    Zan Fi + Infusion + Second Spire + Drunken Monkey Style Rk. II + Speedfocus



    Infusion + Second Spire + Drunken Monkey Style Rk. II + Speedfocus



    Zan Fi + Infusion + Second Spire + Speedfocus


  23. #103
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    Next parse is no Technique of Master Wu and no Stonefoot, then with Stonefoot. Have to wait until tonight so I can set up AutoHotKey script.

    It looks like there are marginal gains for using Zan Fi and DM together with Speedfocus. Even less if you aren't running Speedfocus. Basically it will depend on the fight on whether or not you use Zan Fi in between discs or chain it all for Speedfocus (depending on whether or not you can use the endurance or not).
    Last edited by Sunchyne; 04-28-2010 at 08:06 AM.

  24. #104
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    Same thing.

    Both of these parses were ran without Technique of Master Wu. The Direct Damage you see in the one without Stonefoot was from Vigorous Shuriken Rk. II. 150 DPS or so, as you can tell. All other relevant AA's were bought, including kick mastery, etc.

    In the second one I was running my weapons switched just for my benefit, so Fippy in the mainhand, Kran weapon in the offhand.

    No Stonefoot



    With Stonefoot



    Obviously the DPS increase is higher, which may be a technical issue with the AutoHotKey script looping at odd intervals. I'm working on figuring that out, and I'll be rerunning my previous parses just to make sure.

  25. #105
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    To be certain, Stonefoot does not actually benefit regular kick? Can anyone confirm?

  26. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swami View Post
    /pause 1, /disc Drunken Monkey Discipline Rk. II
    /pause 1, /alt activate 1361
    /pause 1, /alt activate 945
    /alt activate 7001

    Activates Drunken Monkey followed by Second Spire, Infusion of Thunder, and Zan Fi. Can change the order as desired.

    I might also recommend adding in speedfocus (/disc Speedfocus), since really infusion and speedfocus should pretty much always be paired together. Adjust pause lengths based on your own computer/etc (greater pauses are required for computers with more lag, and the opposite is true - although a certain amount of server lag will always be unavoidable, especially for discs. AAs tend to be fine without long or sometimes even any pauses).

    Check out my Bandolier Recommendations thread.
    I am trying to set up a hot key for this, but while SS, IF and ZF work fine i can not seem to get DM or SF to work off of the comands. Any advice?
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  27. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by jefery View Post
    I am trying to set up a hot key for this, but while SS, IF and ZF work fine i can not seem to get DM or SF to work off of the comands. Any advice?
    play with the pause values and the order. I had to. I also ended up taking ZF out of my macro and running it as filler since it doesnt' really stack with all the rest.

  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorkeyah View Post
    play with the pause values and the order. I had to. I also ended up taking ZF out of my macro and running it as filler since it doesnt' really stack with all the rest.
    Wich one does it not stack with? I did finaly get them to work but if they are not stacking then I will need to make changes.
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  29. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by jefery View Post
    Wich one does it not stack with? I did finaly get them to work but if they are not stacking then I will need to make changes.
    part of it doesn't stack with one thing (forget now), the other part doesn't stack with DM. But... it can fill in when DM is down since you can't recast DM if another disc is up.

  30. #110
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    ZF has conflicts with two different abilities: Drunken Monkey, and Infusion of Thunder (well, any damage mod). Drunken Monkey blocks the skill damage component, and Infusion blocks the damage modifier.

    If you run with both a damage mod (CP, IoT, 7th, etc) AND Drunken Monkey, then there's no reason to use Zan Fi at all. But if either one is left out of your burn, then still use Zan Fi. Personally, I dont even bother worrying about it. Zan Fi lasts for 5 minutes and therefore for the bulk of the encounters I do, personally. So I just click it and run. Other monks might choose to be more wise with their ability usage, however, as far as that goes. It's up to you.

  31. #111
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    I use it for stuff like adds between phases and junk like that (zf).

  32. #112
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    I just realized how out dated my Guide is. Gonna have to update this.

  33. #113
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    Okay so I'm reworking my guide. It's getting a decent overhaul, in light of recent additions to the Monk arsenal, and is getting a few expansions. I'll post what I have right now (it's getting late), and update as I can.
    Last edited by Swami; 07-13-2010 at 02:00 AM.

  34. #114
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    Guide is now finished, hopefully until next expansion. Let me know if I missed anything or if anything else still needs reworking. Thanks!

  35. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swami View Post
    Guide is now finished, hopefully until next expansion. Let me know if I missed anything or if anything else still needs reworking. Thanks!
    Where did you update it?

  36. #116
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    it is updated on the first entry of this thread. looks good swami. thanks.
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  37. #117
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    Yeah, the very first post in this thread is my guide, and is where I will always be updating it.

  38. #118
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    Is there a still a stacking problem with five point palm (multiple monks)? A friend didn't think there was, but I'm only just getting it so I don't know. heh

  39. #119
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    I haven't heard otherwise, so Im pretty confident the stacking conflict still exists.

    I always end up waiting halfway through the fight before using mine, so if anyone has proof to the contrary, please inform.

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    They will overwrite each other.

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