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Thread: Monk DPS

  1. #41
    Apostle Master Mris's Avatar
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    Just to be clear, here, does the quote above indicate that the damage on these should NOT stack, because they're all buffs? I has assumed that they SHOULD stack, because the effects are in different slots, and they're additive, instead of multiplicative. But we all know where assume gets us, I guess.

  2. #42
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    The pertinent section is this

    (Spells, passive AA's and items each get their own and add amongst each other. I.E. if you have a passive AA that ads 100 to blunt, a spell buff that ads 20 to blunt, a spell buff that ads 50 to blunt, and an item effect that ads 20 to blunt, your total is 170.)
    He's saying that different effects stack, but effects of the same type will NOT stack. IE the spell buffs that add 50 and 20, only the 50 is taken into effect.
    Last edited by Sunchyne; 04-16-2010 at 11:15 PM.

  3. #43
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    Buffs were Unity Rk. 3, Hastening of Erradian Rk. 3, Self Buffs (Might of Stone II, Ancestral Memories I), and Gallantry Rk. 3

    NPC was a level 88 attacked from behind.

    Base DPS Parse (No discs, no AA's)

    DPS without Kick/Strike - 2340.8 DPS



    Running Infusion, Second, Zan Fi, and DM

    DPS without Kick/Strike - 4174.5

    Last edited by Sunchyne; 04-20-2010 at 10:52 PM.

  4. #44
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    Same buffs, situation as the first parse. Each parse is over 32000s long, or at least 8.8 hours long.


    Second Spire + Zan Fi + Infusion



    Second Spire + Zan Fi




    Second Spire


  5. #45
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    can you do one with just zan fi?

    cause that looks close enough that your second spire + zan fi vs just second spire is the 15% from zan fi and zan fi's damage bonus

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  6. #46
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    Sure can. I'm running the FK with no Fero parses right now, hopefully I'll remember to do just Zan Fi after the raids tonight.

    My understanding of this, and where I was wrong earlier in my thinking, is that if the effect is in the buff bar, the damage from it does not stack.

    At least, that's what Ngreth said in reference to AA's and spells that added damage.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunchyne View Post
    Sure can. I'm running the FK with no Fero parses right now, hopefully I'll remember to do just Zan Fi after the raids tonight.

    My understanding of this, and where I was wrong earlier in my thinking, is that if the effect is in the buff bar, the damage from it does not stack.

    At least, that's what Ngreth said in reference to AA's and spells that added damage.
    By my understanding Zan fi and second stack.

    Infusion and zan fi sorta stack. In that it adds the +dam mod of zan fi to the percent mod of Infusion. However it takes the larger percent mod (Infusion and the 15% mod of Zan Fi is wasted).
    Going for AC before AC was cool.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ughbash View Post
    By my understanding Zan fi and second stack.

    Infusion and zan fi sorta stack. In that it adds the +dam mod of zan fi to the percent mod of Infusion. However it takes the larger percent mod (Infusion and the 15% mod of Zan Fi is wasted).
    Correct on lossing the 15% mod if you run all together. Best for short fight to run all, but better on a longer fight to seperate Infusion and Zan Fi so you can get the add 15% after Infusion has run its corse.
    Last edited by Fulic; 04-21-2010 at 10:35 AM. Reason: Spelling
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  9. #49
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    But when Ngreth says this

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngreth
    (Spells, passive AA's and items each get their own and add amongst each other. I.E. if you have a passive AA that ads 100 to blunt, a spell buff that ads 20 to blunt, a spell buff that ads 50 to blunt, and an item effect that ads 20 to blunt, your total is 170.)
    My understanding is that the +damage portion of Zan Fi won't stack with the +damage portion of Second. Notice in the above quote the total is 170, as in the two spell buffs that add to blunt do not stack, while all other effects stack, as long as they are different.

    I'm going from memory on the spell data, as I'm at work, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunchyne View Post
    My understanding is that the +damage portion of Zan Fi won't stack with the +damage portion of Second. Notice in the above quote the total is 170, as in the two spell buffs that add to blunt do not stack, while all other effects stack, as long as they are different.

    I'm going from memory on the spell data, as I'm at work, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
    Maybe it's changed since the original parses done by Qulas and Swami(?) showed that +dmg from Zan Fi and Second were additive.

    Maybe when they made it so 2 spells that have the same effect in the same slot don't get blocked from being on the person at the same time, they ensured that only the highest in the same system took. That may have had the effect of even though 2 effects in 2 different slots now, within the same system, only the highest takes.

    If that's the case then it makes sense to use second spire separate from Zan Fi.

    The way I would go is use Infusion of Thunder/Second Spire along with speedfocus and then pop Zan Fi once Infusion is down. You'll get more out of the 75% dmg modifier from Infusion than if you'll get from the +12 dmg more Zan Fi gives over second.

    Once Infusion is down - you have Zan Fi giving 15% dmg bonus and second spire is then no longer in effect since Zan Fi has a better skill dmg. If a bard can do Quicktime once speedfocus is down and then a zerker does their Warcry, you've got HH effect while having % dmg modfier going for a while.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by nduma View Post
    Maybe it's changed since the original parses done by Qulas and Swami(?) showed that +dmg from Zan Fi and Second were additive.

    Maybe when they made it so 2 spells that have the same effect in the same slot don't get blocked from being on the person at the same time, they ensured that only the highest in the same system took. That may have had the effect of even though 2 effects in 2 different slots now, within the same system, only the highest takes.

    If that's the case then it makes sense to use second spire separate from Zan Fi.

    The way I would go is use Infusion of Thunder/Second Spire along with speedfocus and then pop Zan Fi once Infusion is down. You'll get more out of the 75% dmg modifier from Infusion than if you'll get from the +12 dmg more Zan Fi gives over second.

    Once Infusion is down - you have Zan Fi giving 15% dmg bonus and second spire is then no longer in effect since Zan Fi has a better skill dmg. If a bard can do Quicktime once speedfocus is down and then a zerker does their Warcry, you've got HH effect while having % dmg modfier going for a while.

    Ok, then what about DM? heh

  12. #52
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    DM is in the song buff bar, I'm assuming that's different than the regular buff bar (as are most effects there). I'd say hit it before every disc.

  13. #53
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    Forgot about Drunken Monkey Style

    Song and Spell am fairly certain fall under the same system so the skill mod probably won't be additive.

    So instead of Second Spire during Speedfocus, use Infusion/Drunken then hit speedfocus.

    Switch to Zan Fi once Infusion is down which is about the same time Drunken Monkey should be down as well.

    Drunken Monkey prior to Heel of Kaanji since you want to get the extra dmg on FK which you'll be getting every second.

    No benefit of hitting Drunken during Crystalpalm or Scaledfist.

    I guess one Zan Fi is down you can hit Second spire (which puts you about 6 minutes into the fight). If the fight is shorter then you perhaps try 1st spire or 3rd spire

  14. #54
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    The question is, do the gains from splitting the discs up outweigh the gains from combining them? As you can see, you do get a DPS increase for every disc/AA you add into the mix (except, maybe, for second spire). Once I finish parsing each individual disc by itself, we'll be able to see the complete picture.

  15. #55
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    Made sense to combine Zan Fi/Second ( and drunken) when they are all added to the final hit with Speedfocus because you are getting the +dmg of all and getting a lot of hits in at once.

    But, if they aren't additive you only want the highest +dmg which is Drunken Monkey.

    If we didn't have Infusion of Thunder then you'd want to throw in Zan Fi (if you didn't have 7th available) during Speedfocus to get the 15% dmg modifier on each hit but, since Infusion will last longer than Speed - don't need to hit

    Zan Fi naturally comes after IoT is gone because a) It has the % dmg modifier b) It's +dmg mod is bigger than 2nd Spire.

    Can Run Drunken again for the +dmg even with Zan Fi going if you have endurance - at least you are still getting the % dmg modifier.

    Edit:

    Say you run all IoT, Second Spire, Zan Fi and Drunken together.

    For the first 50ish seconds for which IoT and Drunken are running - the % dmg modifier of Zan Fi is ignored due to IoT having higher and the +dmg of both Zan Fi and Second ignored since drunken is higher.

    Then when IoT/Drunken are gone - you've got Zan Fi % dmg going and the higher +dmg of Zan Fi. By the time Second Spire wears off - it's contributed to no additional dmg.
    Last edited by nduma; 04-21-2010 at 01:47 PM.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by nduma View Post
    No benefit of hitting Drunken during Crystalpalm or Scaledfist.
    this is wrong there is a huge benefit. drunken monkey adds way more damage then either zan fi or second. and DM adds along with zan fi and second. here is my problem looking over parses its almost like sometimes second and zan fi add up and sometimes they don't. maybe its the order you click them idk.

    currently what I do is hit second or zan fi and my speedfocus hotkey which hits DM IoT and speed after shaman epic click and hopefully auspice. that gives me crazy dps for the duration of speedfocus, after that our discs don't really compare to the burst of that combination and it doesn't matter so much. but DM before every disc is the important thing imo, unles you need to conserve endurane.

    since I didn't think second and zan fi stacked period I was actually using 3rd spire for a while cause it adds like 100% damage when it procs, you just need to get it to proc from wild ramp or whatever.

    but yeah when I parsed the one day while hitting rocks I couldn't get second and zan fi to stack. then the next day they did stack, the damage was the right amount a part etc. and then alter they didn't stack again

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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by zzam View Post
    this is wrong there is a huge benefit. drunken monkey adds way more damage then either zan fi or second. and DM adds along with zan fi and second. here is my problem looking over parses its almost like sometimes second and zan fi add up and sometimes they don't. maybe its the order you click them idk.
    Crystalpalm and Scaled don't mod the +dmg portion of drunken - so running the discs have no added benefit.

    The only thing that may be pertinent is that due to the duration of the fight you might run Drunken at the same time as those discs because if you wait, you won't get the full length of the Drunken buffs.

  18. #58
    Apostle Master Mris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zzam View Post
    since I didn't think second and zan fi stacked period I was actually using 3rd spire for a while cause it adds like 100% damage when it procs, you just need to get it to proc from wild ramp or whatever.
    But does it stack with IoT?

    Damn this is getting annoying. *starts using first spire*

    *EDIT* Actually, wouldn't first spire + IoT be good, since IoT can crit proc for 2k+?
    Last edited by Mris; 04-21-2010 at 03:05 PM. Reason: because I felt like it

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mris View Post
    But does it stack with IoT?

    Damn this is getting annoying. *starts using first spire*

    *EDIT* Actually, wouldn't first spire + IoT be good, since IoT can crit proc for 2k+?
    I was actually thinking the same thing. Once I get the Zan Fi parse done that's the next one I plan on running.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mris View Post
    But does it stack with IoT?

    Damn this is getting annoying. *starts using first spire*

    *EDIT* Actually, wouldn't first spire + IoT be good, since IoT can crit proc for 2k+?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunchyne View Post
    I was actually thinking the same thing. Once I get the Zan Fi parse done that's the next one I plan on running.
    First Spire + IoT + Speed Focus
    vs
    2nd Spire + IoT + Speed Focus
    vs
    IoT + Speedfocus

    Now those would be some interesting parses. I'd love to see 1st Spire actually be worth something.

  21. #61
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    First Spire might be worth it in a burn because for the first 6ish min of a fight - second spire won't do anything for you - first being ignored due to Drunken monkey then due to Zan Fi.

    Offcourse this is if the parses are indeed showing that Second spire is being ignored Drunken and during Zan Fi.

  22. #62
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    Throw in lynx, bard proc songs, and epic click....

  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by nduma View Post
    Crystalpalm and Scaled don't mod the +dmg portion of drunken - so running the discs have no added benefit.

    The only thing that may be pertinent is that due to the duration of the fight you might run Drunken at the same time as those discs because if you wait, you won't get the full length of the Drunken buffs.
    I'm pretty sure someone has parsed this before.

    But I will later tonight, just to show that it does increase your overall DPS.
    This is without hitting calanins, or FK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Study View Post
    I'm pretty sure someone has parsed this before.

    But I will later tonight, just to show that it does increase your overall DPS.
    This is without hitting calanins, or FK.
    Well yeah, there is a DPS increase, because DM adds damage. It's best to keep it up all the time, if endurance allows.
    Last edited by Sunchyne; 04-22-2010 at 02:06 AM. Reason: Spelling

  25. #65
    Apostle Master Mris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yyevil View Post
    First Spire + IoT + Speed Focus
    vs
    2nd Spire + IoT + Speed Focus
    vs
    IoT + Speedfocus

    Now those would be some interesting parses. I'd love to see 1st Spire actually be worth something.
    Nah, things don't get interesting until you throw DM into each parse.

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    Disregard - I was tired as shit last night and forgot to put my Fero item back in.
    Last edited by Sunchyne; 04-22-2010 at 09:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mris View Post
    Nah, things don't get interesting until you throw DM into each parse.

    <---
    Maybe this lazy monk should get off his lazy behind and help...
    <---
    Maybe but I want to see if 1st spire is now better than 2nd for some reason.

  28. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Study View Post
    I'm pretty sure someone has parsed this before.

    But I will later tonight, just to show that it does increase your overall DPS.
    This is without hitting calanins, or FK.
    The +dmg is added at the end, after Crystal/Scaled mod your base hit.

    The +72 dmg to H2H/1hb doesn't get multiplied by the dmg modifier of Crystalpalm

    The +dmg from Strike/Kick/Flying Kick boost won't get modded by Scaled.

    So you aren't getting anything extra by running DM and Crystal/Scaled but, you do get extra DPS if you run DM/Speedfocus because you are landing more hits so you are getting more +dmg.

    Same you are getting more out of running Heel / DM because you are landing more specials more often so getting the +dmg from the boost effects added more often.

  29. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by nduma View Post
    The +dmg is added at the end, after Crystal/Scaled mod your base hit.

    The +72 dmg to H2H/1hb doesn't get multiplied by the dmg modifier of Crystalpalm

    The +dmg from Strike/Kick/Flying Kick boost won't get modded by Scaled.

    So you aren't getting anything extra by running DM and Crystal/Scaled but, you do get extra DPS if you run DM/Speedfocus because you are landing more hits so you are getting more +dmg.

    Same you are getting more out of running Heel / DM because you are landing more specials more often so getting the +dmg from the boost effects added more often.
    I think his point was (and I could be wrong) you still get an increase in DPS by running DM during all discs, which is true. You'll have more DPS with it running than if you didn't, it just doesn't get multiplied by anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yyevil View Post
    Maybe but I want to see if 1st spire is now better than 2nd for some reason.
    Well, without my Fero item in, I got about 300 DPS less than the Infusion + Zan Fi + Second parse. I'll have to run another tonight with it in and see how it stacks up. That was also without epic running for the extra procs.

  31. #71
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    Ok. Was just trying to make sure people don't confuse the matter thinking Crystal/Scaled amplify the effects of DM. They do work in conjunction.

    Definitely should use DM if you have the endurance for it - no reason not to keep it up and if you are keeping it up then use First or Third spire as second spire effect will always be ignored.

  32. #72
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    One thing that isn't noted is Five Point Palm. Use it when you have Scaledfist activated.

    On top of adding the debuff to the NPC, there is a skill attack (dragon punch) of 391 (at max level of AA) as well - that is a better skill attack Calanin Rnk 3 of 383. Scaled will mod the attack.

  33. #73
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    Everything is the same as all the other parses.

    Reposted the other two relevant parses.

    Second Spire + Zan Fi




    Second Spire



    Zan Fi


  34. #74
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    The damage portions from Second and Zan Fi both stack. Base DPS minimum punch is 181. Minimum punch with both active is 258. Zan fi adds 40 damage, Second spire adds 37. 258 - 77 = 181.

    I'm parsing First spire with Zan Fi and Infusion right now. After that I'll run one with DM so we can see if it stacks also.

  35. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunchyne View Post
    The damage portions from Second and Zan Fi both stack. Base DPS minimum punch is 181. Minimum punch with both active is 258. Zan fi adds 40 damage, Second spire adds 37. 258 - 77 = 181.

    I'm parsing First spire with Zan Fi and Infusion right now. After that I'll run one with DM so we can see if it stacks also.
    Thanks.

  36. #76
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    Since Second and Zan Fi stack, it will always be more beneficial to stack them during Speedfocus than using First Spire. Even with Lynx and Arcane Aria added in, I doubt the DPS from First will be enough to overcome the advantage of using Second during Speedfocus.

    After the first 40 minutes, it's looking like First Spire with Zan Fi, Infusion, and Epic is about equal to using Second in the same situation. Obviously with discs, this would change.
    Last edited by Sunchyne; 04-22-2010 at 09:09 PM.

  37. #77
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    I just don't get why but the zan fi should be way higher then second spire because of the extra 15%

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  38. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by zzam View Post
    I just don't get why but the zan fi should be way higher then second spire because of the extra 15%
    His original buff list said Unity Rank 3 - which unless he clicked it off is Mammoth Rank 3 which is a 8% modifier.

    So the Second Spire parse has that when it's run.

    Zan Fi is adding a 7% boost which would explain why overall it's only a 130ish DPS boost from the Second Spire Parse

  39. #79
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    Same situation as all the other parses.

    First Spire + Zan Fi + Infusion + Epic Click



    Second Spire + Zan Fi + Infusion


  40. #80
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    As you can see here, it looks like First Spire would beat out Second Spire if you have Lynx and/or Arcane Aria running. However, if you are burning Speedfocus, it would still be more beneficial to use Second Spire, as the damage stacks with Zan Fi (and hopefully DM).

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