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Thread: Status Update

  1. #201
    Ascendant Stone Fist
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    Default Re: Status Update

    Hmm..



    For the positional monk vs rogue arguement.



    How much DPS is a rogue losing from backstab? How true is it to say that a rogue is at a severe disadvantage when attacking at any angle but the back? Is rogue frontal dps any different then monk?



    If EQ's melee combat system was in a way that every class had an "advantage" angle, then I could see how giving monks the "all-angles" feature would be a huge bonus. But because no other class has an angles restriction, besides rogues, what's the big deal?



    Meaning, the combat system would have to apply bonuses and penalties to all classes to make the "all-angle" monk feature something truely great. Shouldn't Paladins have an angle-penalty for attacking a monster from the back? That isn't honorable right? Wouldn't an SK want to attack from the rear for an angle-bonus for treachery? Would bash attacks have a penalty for side/back as opposed to frontal? A bash in the face would be more effective then a bash to the back (maybe)?



    I'm not saying I won't use the feature, what I'm saying is you're trying to transform something insignificant into something awesome. This feature will only affect, maybe, the top 30% of monks, maybe even les. The ones that raid AND have return kick/double riposte AAs will benefit the most, but casual monks will see minimal gains.



    As usual, I'll end my post with a crazy analogy.



    This feature is like having a parking pass for a public parking lot, where the only restrictions applied is for the handicapped.


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub147.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=zar cath>Zarcath</A>* at: 1/11/04 9:54 am

  2. #202
    Enlightened Grandmaster Wubao's Avatar
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    Default Re: Status Update

    "Our DPS, while not horrible, isn't enough on its own to overcome the advantages that the hybrids bring to the table."



    Speaking of our DPS ...



    If the goal here is two-fold, and reading what Kavhok is saying, it seems to be two-fold ... this change would be good for even the non-raiding monk.



    IF it boosts our DPS to the point where it is just EVEN to our DPS from the back of a mob, then the non-raiding monk gets a SMALL DPS boost.



    How is that you ask Wubao?



    Simple. It makes it easier for us to deal damage in a group, over a long period of time. So, extended out over a 2 hour period of XP "grinding" your DPS will be far more consistent, and I bet if you test now and test later you'll see it is boosted.



    Just ask the many esteemed rogues who visit this forum from time to time about how much DPS can be lost while XP grinding due to bad push, or odd geometry or some other factor.



    By making a monk put out the exact same DPS from any angle, these issues become less of a factor to the monk. Making our DPS rise slightly simply by application.



    NOW ... if they actually IMPROVE our DPS, even just slightly, so that we WANT to fight from the front (because it ends up being MORE DPS than fighting from the back), then seriously folks, you've nothing to complain about. Because it's both a NEW raid function AND it's what you're asking for ... a DPS IMPROVEMENT.



    I've read here time and again "Idea X is nice, but it won't improve us because it doesn't give us utility and it doesn't improve our DPS."



    Well this idea DOES improve our utility. And if done right CAN improve our DPS.



    "But what is being done to address the issues with the 50-65 non-raiding monk? "



    It's a process.



    It's also been suggested, for example, by Xenjuro:



    "2.) adapt Wind of Force (reverse knockback) to be independent of openings. Would be a tremendous compliment to Dragon Punch for positioning."



    So ... let's think for a second here.



    1- We get our discs unlinked.

    2- We get our discs improved.



    Result: We now have better burst DPS in specific fights, allowing us to compete better with casters who were hogging the limelight as "burst DPS" kings. We also gain improved defensive capabilities (earthwalk is that good).



    3- We get Phantom Wind.



    Result: Improved pulling. So far so good.



    4- We get immunity to riposte opening up the chance to attack from the front and easing up constraints on weapon choices.



    Result: We begin to fill the role of best DPS from "any angle." This means we don't have to fight for a spot behind the mob. This means over the long haul of an evening our DPS will be more consistent, and overall be better.



    This also means we begin to develop a new role in both groups and raids. That of positioning a mob.



    5- Kavhok and Rytan listen to Xenjuro's idea, and Winds of Force is adapted to the current system, and we get to POSITION mobs with it. Now, even the non-raid, non-AA having monk has a tool to position monsters. Combine that with Dragon Punch AA and Silent Fist discipline and monks at the end game are GOOD at positioning. Monks not at the end game can still do this job. It's a job that currently no one else does that well. It'd be a niche for monks to fill.



    END RESULT of the combined changes:



    -We get DPS improvements.

    -We get Defensive/Pulling improvements.

    -We get a ROLE.



    My GOD, that seems to address the three most pertinent COMPLAINTS we have about our class.



    One might say, we're walking the path to BALANCE.



    In little steps. That add up.



    -Wubao


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub147.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=wub ao@monklybusiness43508>Wubao</A> at: 1/11/04 9:53 am
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  3. #203
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>END RESULT of the combined changes:



    -We get DPS improvements.

    -We get Defensive/Pulling improvements.

    -We get a ROLE.



    My GOD, that seems to address the three most pertinent COMPLAINTS we have about our class.



    One might say, we're walking the path to BALANCE.



    In little steps. That add up.<hr></blockquote>



    We don't need little steps up the path, we need a triple jump, just to catch up.



    I disagree with your opinion that the lull, in it's current form will move us at all up the path, and I believe we need a 25% across the board dps increase to even begin to catch up. Until that happens there is no role being created, or restored. We are miles behind, not a few yards. None of the changes we have seen so far close that gap in my opinion.


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub147.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=qwi n>Qwin</A> at: 1/11/04 10:12 am

  4. #204
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>1- We get our discs unlinked.

    2- We get our discs improved.



    Result: We now have better burst DPS in specific fights, allowing us to compete better with casters who were hogging the limelight as "burst DPS" kings. We also gain improved defensive capabilities (earthwalk is that good).<hr></blockquote>



    However our burst DPS is severely limited, because of the timers, and because of the endurance. While it's true other classes like rogues and rangers use endurance for their burst dps disc, their special skills (backstab, bow) still put them on a higher dps.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>3- We get Phantom Wind.



    Result: Improved pulling. So far so good.<hr></blockquote>



    You're getting ahead of yourself here. We haven't gotten Phantom Wind yet and the last incarnation of it on Test is still unsuitable for chain pulling (3 minute reuse or something?)



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>4- We get immunity to riposte opening up the chance to attack from the front and easing up constraints on weapon choices.



    Result: We begin to fill the role of best DPS from "any angle." This means we don't have to fight for a spot behind the mob. This means over the long haul of an evening our DPS will be more consistent, and overall be better.<hr></blockquote>



    Again this is all fantasy fiction. Kahvok only said they were intrigued about the idea. When all of these systems are in place, and our riposting AA's, +endurance items +endurance regen, +more attack skills then we'll see how the system works.



    But right now, you're talking about a lot of "if's", and SoE's track record in implementing tiny systems that fully intergrated into a grand system has never worked in the past, with EQ or SWG.



    If Kahvok would reveal the entire system of how monks are supposed to be, or how they envision us, or their full plan of how to get us from point A-X, then that would be much preferable then them showing us point A-B-C-D-E-F-G



    Because making decisions on tiny systems without a scope of the grand system is like making a crazy analogy.



    What they're doing now is like running a group of people through a maze where every room only has two doors. You get the satisfaction of debating with your group about which door to take, and the satisfaction of making your own choice, but by the time you get to the end of the maze to find your prize, it's a swift kick in the nuts. Or a kick to the teeth, depending which doors you went through. Either way you end up abused and hurt.



    So before people start cooking up visions of granduer and interpretting what SoE is trying to do, they have to reveal what the goal is before anyone can agree on anything.



    But then again, their goal has always been to make money.



    -Z


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub147.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=zar cath>Zarcath</A>* at: 1/11/04 10:32 am

  5. #205
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>He also said that with the right AAs we may end up doing MORE damage from the front. I think it is great. As it is I am almost scared to attack on raids where I am pulling incase I take a couple hits for 1k just before I need to go pull. And many of these mobs that hit that hard can't be as easily positioned as normal boss mobs.<hr></blockquote>



    Ok, at first I was gonna disagree with that, but I dug thru the thread and found buried several pages in

    Kavhok wrote

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>We were thinking more that this would have some chance to double attack innately. Double-riposte and return-kick AA's would make a possible third attack. It would make the damage done from the front slightly more than the done from the back with AA's, a little less without them. <hr></blockquote>



    So I'll agree that his idea is as you stated.



    However, unless the AAs are adjusted, mob dodge and parry outweigh them, and we'd still do less damage from the front.



    We'll have to see about getting the AAs adjusted.


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  6. #206
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    Default Because

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Blech. Folks, seriously. I can't see how you could possibly complain about something like this. It's free.<hr></blockquote>

    Because they will take this as a fact that we "got something" and have a tendincy to not readdress the issue. Then, they will say "We gave you attack on ripos and that is sufficient" when other similar issues are brought up.



    You've seen it happen many times. They are only going to give us so much... and this will be one of them. We don't want something cheap.. we want something useful.


    </p>

  7. #207
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    Default Re: Because

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Blech. Folks, seriously. I can't see how you could possibly complain about something like this. It's free.



    Read that again, it's free. This isn't like the new disc system where it's a trade-off of Burst vs Longevity (in a sense). This is free. Even if it doesn't increase our dps, I'd still be thankful for it. It's fucking free. We don't get blocked more for having it. We don't get dodged more for having it.<hr></blockquote>



    Simple, soe will put this in and call us balanced. When this doesn't do anything to address the issues of the unbalance.



    Frankly I haven't seen anything that is in the works, that does address the balance issues. I really believe they don't understand just how far out of balance the monk class is.




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  8. #208
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    Default Re: Because

    The mitigation nerf is the main thing keeping us from being balanced, honestly. Once that's finally removed it will open up soloing as a way of bringing in decent (albeit less than a group) xp. With the changes to FD and this idea of making us do *MORE* DPS from the front in raids/groups we will suddenly have a lot more utility to boot. Add in lull and whatnot, and things are looking pretty nice again.




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  9. #209
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    Default Re: Status Update

    i dont think even with the mitigation nerf reversed monks would beable to solo worth a damn, i know as a paladin with healing spells i still cant solo worth a damn, sure its xp but its so horrible xp its not worth the time.



    regarding changes as a raid leader i actually do think it will give monks a nice raid role, monks already are pretty good positioners with Dragon punch, but now a monk can be in front, doing the same or more dps (with the proper AA's) to counter raid push, and to postion if needed...



    xp groups are slighly harder to balance because their are less facets to them, utility, beyond buffs/debuffs is usually fairly useless because xp groups just arnt complicated enough to need certain abilities of certain class's, because of course, you have 16 class's and 6 spots, if you require anything too much your making groups rely on certain class's too much, which is a bad ting (TM) monks do have pulling, which isnt the best, because to be completly honest you really dont need a pulling class to pull 90% of xp groups however people are just plain old used to it, and perception does hold a key in balance, even tho it is very votile and changes alot...


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  10. #210
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    Default Re: Status Update

    Qwin, you'll have to start being more precise. In terms of offense we are pretty close to where we should be with proper equipment and being stuck behind the mob with the rogues. In terms of defense we're currently fucked by the mitigation nerf. In terms of utility, we pretty much suck.



    The proposed changes address the offense and utility aspects rather nicely. By freeing us up to do equal or better DPS from any angle other than behind and not having to worry about riposte when not tanking we suddenly become the kings of positioning. By giving FD a full mem wipe after being down for 2 minutes we will become greatly valued for CR and when wipes happen. Lull will make our pulling abilities that much better.



    That honestly only leaves defense as needing to be addressed. The only change needed there is to remove the mitigation nerf entirely. The current AC on gear puts us where they want us on its own, behind plate and chain classes.




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  11. #211
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>We don't need little steps up the path, we need a triple jump, just to catch up.



    I disagree with your opinion that the lull, in it's current form will move us at all up the path, and I believe we need a 25% across the board dps increase to even begin to catch up. Until that happens there is no role being created, or restored. We are miles behind, not a few yards. None of the changes we have seen so far close that gap in my opinion.<hr></blockquote>



    Triple jumps poorly thought out and implemented, just make us that far out in "left field" away from balance still. A 25% increase in DPS? across the board? Nice idea, wishful thinking, however, a little bit unrealistic. a 25% increase in DPS would be more like turning us into "god class" which while we never were one, the preception that we were, was enough to get our mitigation nerfed. I understand this is all your opinion, however, why not see how something works before bashing it.



    There have been Many Monks here putting forth ideas of what can be done to improve the balance of the monk class. For the most part, the good ones are people that have well thought out reasoned arguments of why one thing won't work, and why their idea might work better. SOE is listening to those, and soliciting more input from us. Slamming their ideas, and putting forth "a 25% increse in DPS" as a fix, is insulting, in My opinion. 25% increase in DPS for time monks will put them even, if not ahead of rogue DPS. If that's the case, then what will a Rogue's role be? Should Our "balance" be at the expense of another class? i don't think so.


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  12. #212
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The mitigation nerf is the main thing keeping us from being balanced, honestly.<hr></blockquote>

    I don't really think so. I think they need to put in casting like abilities using endurance to obtain a balance.



    I think long recasting abilites like being able to cast a low percentage slow every two minutes or so would be better. W ewouldn't be a main slower ever, but it would help us solo and allow us to help with in camp CC a little. I have also heard of things like grapple. Perhaps we could set it up so we could grapple a mob and depending on its hp and level we would mitigate and possibly completely stop any damage while giving up all of our damage dealing ability. I don't think we should be able to grapple for very long though. 15 seconds or so max. Enough to help an enchanter or off tank get on it. ANd if a mob hits us then we lose the grapple.



    To balance us we need a modicum of flexibility without stealing any other class roles.



    Even if they upped our defense to what it used to be like it wouldn't matter. When we soloed the mobs dps was only slightly over what we could regen back with mend and regen. Now mob dps is so far over what we regen that the small gain we would get back in mitigation abilities would make almost no difference.


    </p>

  13. #213
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    Default Re: Status Update

    Really, in order to balance our mitigation properly to put us in line with casters, the mitigation of all melee, including monks, would have to be improved to the point that we would have HIGHER MITIGATION now than we did before the nerf. Not equal . . . HIGHER.






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    <div style="text-align:center"><span style="color:purple;"><span style="text-decoration:underline">Reverse the Monk Mitigation Nerf!</span></span></div></p>

  14. #214
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    Default Re: Status Update

    Triple jumps aren't needed. There is no one "fix all" change that will rebalance us. It's a myth, it doesn't exist. It IS these small, subtle tweaks that will get us realigned. Get this through your heads: We do not need a big DPS boost across the board. Despite a few gaps in itemization at certain niches of levels and playstyle, we're fine. It's HOW we're able to do this dps that's the problem. This "return attack" change helps alleviate one major aspect of this problem. IF it gets tested/tweaked properly such that a monk with the right AAs can do equal, or even slightly more in some situations, damage from the front, then it's a good thing.



    They also increased our burst capabilities via our disciplines, another step in the right direction. Inner Flame and Speed Focus are TREMENDOUS increases in burst capabilities over what we had previously. We even were given some duration dps increase disciplines (although I think they should be increase to 1.5 mins). Another piece of HOW we do our damage fixed.



    What's left? Well a little more survivability to AE's and Rampage would help, like drastically decreasing the re use timer on Purify Body or a discipline that gives us a 50% chance to IGNORE a detrimental spell. Giving greater resiliance to effects that'd hamper our DPS would also help...like Slow Mitigation or ATK debuffs only taking away 1/2 of the atk that the spell lists. That way we'd still get debuffed, but not as much as the other melees in the group/raid.



    Take all the above combined and you'd have a class that could do CONSISTENT top end damage in almost any situation. That's one major thing that needs fixing, and they are currently on the right path.


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  15. #215
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Qwin, you'll have to start being more precise. In terms of offense we are pretty close to where we should be with proper equipment and being stuck behind the mob with the rogues. In terms of defense we're currently fucked by the mitigation nerf. In terms of utility, we pretty much suck.<hr></blockquote>



    Even with the best equipment, max over haste we are still barely in the number 3 slot on the dps value tree. That is only do to the sustained dps fight model. With even the toughest fights only last 5 min, the mana regen capability's, of casters today. Sustained dps, is not necessary anymore. Third isn't good enough. Your role can not be said to dps, if even in the top gear in the game your only 3rd best.



    Those monks that will never see plain of time equipment are stuck down in the 5-6 slot for dps desirability. How anyone can say that is ok for a class that is supposed be great dps, is beyond my ability to comprehend. We would need about a 25% increase in our dps, in the best gear in the game, just to compete for the dps slot alone. Even during velious, when our dps was considered at all lvls of a monks life to be in the number 2 slot, that wasn't the primary role we were chosen for, it was our pulling ability.



    We have lost that pulling role, do to the lull lines of spells actually working, along with the lessor need to split mobs in a lot of the zones. Making it just as safe, and twice as fast for other classes to do the pulling. A single use per pull lull, isn't going to speed us up enough to give us a shot at that puller role. They would need to either remove lull completely from the game, or give us a version, on par with what the other classes can do.



    The mitigation nerf has been proven to be unnecessary, at least a thousand times on this board, yet they refuse to talk about it at all.



    All this has been stated for over a year on these very boards. We all know this, soe knows this. Yet they are continuing to take the ranger re-balancing fiasco method and apply it too us. I will not sit around for 2 years while they tinker here and there, with little to know results, the way they did with rangers.



    Bottom line, they know what needs to be done, because we been telling them for over a year. They just refuse to do it. They are trying to placate us with these half-assed fixes, and way too many monks are buying it.








    </p>

  16. #216
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The mitigation nerf is the main thing keeping us from being balanced, honestly.<hr></blockquote>



    Reversing that nerf is only one piece of the puzzle. DPS from all angles is another piece. Unlinking discs from END is yet another (freeing the END bar for future use).

    All three together don't get us there, but its a step forward.


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  17. #217
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    Default Re: Status Update

    As far as im concerned i would take the reverse of the mitigation nerf as an even trade. I know that won't really hvae an effect of soloing but i and most othat monks don't solo, so ther is no problem.



    I would be willing to make a trade for these "little" fixed to be traded with the reverse of mitagtion, if that was done i would honestly say that i am happy with the monk class all around.


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  18. #218
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    Default Re: .

    IMO, should just make return kick do an extra FK on a riposte in addition to a double riposte, effectively giving monks the chance to triple riposte. This is how it should have worked in the beginning, as I cant see them developing such a redundant skill as return kick.


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub147.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=xen juroxerofist>Xenjuro Xerofist</A>* at: 1/11/04 3:06 pm

  19. #219
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>It would make the damage done from the front slightly more than the done from the back with AA's, a little less without them. <hr></blockquote>

    The idea of us having more damage from the front is great as I said above. The immunity idea is even better. The communications from Kavhok and Rytan are a well appreciated change and I hope they continue for a long time.



    But, to need AA's to do this additional front damage does nothing to help lower level monks get groups easier (especially those who can't get the applicable AA's yet). Those monks will still be relegated to the back and still will suffer in getting groups. I would prefer to see a change that helps all monks and not just raiding monks and/or monks able to get (some appropriate) AA's.



    To put it another way, if this proposed change is intended as a way to make unpopular AA's useful and desired then say so. Don't hide it in the guise of being an element of class balancing. If the purpose of the change really is intended as a part of class balancing, then it falls short.



    I will repeat what I said. I see two alternatives that might help all monks, at least in the perception of their usefulness.



    1) Make the immunity be an immunity to all mob melee defenses when we are attacking from the front and not tanking. Make us essentially strike through those defenses. This should produce equal damage from the front or the back AND a benefit to us in assisting with mob positioning due to the immunities. HOWEVER, I prefer to do more from the front than from the back as proposed.



    2) If the devs actually want us to do more damage from the front as an aspect of class balancing (crosses his fingers and looks up), then adjust the "front defense initiated hits" with a percentage addition, or better yet, use a new, separate damage table so our damage increase matches what the devs want it to be. This can be done no matter how many defensive moves we get an immunity to.



    Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I think that the immunity to riposte is a major plus and I would welcome the addition to us regardless of whether I end up with more damage from the front or not. However, if it doesn't make us do more damage from the front than the rear, it isn't enough to be a major component of class balancing nor will it help monks as a class get groups more easily.


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  20. #220
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    Default Re: Status Update

    This thread is already quite long so I will be a brief as possible.



    How many named mobs or higher level mobs do you know of that are not corner tanked? Hydro or his weird looking friend .. I can probably count the number of mobs total on 2 hands and a foot.



    The idea seems great but so many mobs are cornered that this might be primarilly a grind thing.










    C S </p>

  21. #221
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    Default Re: Status Update

    To the folks who responded to my post:



    Yeah, I understand that SoE might look at this one change and say "job well done." If you read the SECOND HALF of my 6 line post... (sheesh) you can see that I blatantly point out that I am typically the negative type.



    Hell, I'll just say it again. There is nothing negative AT ALL about this. THERE IS NO NERF. It is only an upgrade. I mean, honestly, the idea that the discipline + end system was a nerf/upgrade was dumb. It was simply a change. I pointed that out to everyone in that thread and they seemed to understand. What's so hard about this not being a nerf at all and being 100% upgrade material?


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  22. #222
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    Default Re: Status Update

    As a monk, (or even a rogue, where not being behind a mob == serious drop in DPS), I have had 0 problems in xp groups with mob positioning. My monk has no positioning tools (I have not gotten the dragon punch aa, and probably will not ever do so), and naturally my rogue does not either.



    I fail to see how positioning is such an issue in xp groups that giving us the "role" of positioning mobs does anything for our desirability. Raids? Yes. As mentioned previously, this may make having monks on raids an even more desirable thing, but I fail to see this huge gaping vacuum of a need for a positioner in xp groups.


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  23. #223
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    Default Re: .

    Kavhok:

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Return Kick doesn't change your riposte rate. It gives you a chance to perform an extra attack in addition to your normal riposte. It doesn't affect your original riposte attack with your primary hand weapon at all.



    However, if you have Double Riposte, you will do a kick instead of that second riposte. So you would need to decide whether you wanted a second riposte or a kick in that case. <hr></blockquote>

    so "Return Kick" and "Double Riposte" together make Double Riposte worthless, any chance that SOE refunds us Return Kick AA (as nowere it's stated that it blocks Double Riposte) and Return Kick is less DPS?


    Sensei Chasak DaCrazy

    Iksar Transwhateverit'scalled of Bertoxx Server





    "God grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change; courage to change the things i can; and wisdom to know the difference."</p>
    Sensei Chasak
    (was) of Bertoxx Server

    "God grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change; courage to change the things i can; and wisdom to know the difference."

  24. #224
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
    Join Date
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    Default Re: .



    Two replies for two different people :



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Dodge: 455

    Parries: 505

    Riposte: 469



    As you can see, Riposte is not really the whole problem, Dodge and Parries are 2/3rds of the problem.<hr></blockquote>



    You have not thought this through I think <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)">



    A more relevant question is - what was the attack which generated said riposte ? A tiger strike or flying kick being replaced by up to three mainhand attacks is *NOT* a 1:1 replacement. Assuming the 'innate chance to double attack' on a riposte is 67% like other double attacks, I think Kavhok's statement that it would actually increase dps slightly from the front is fully accurate ( Which really shouldn't be all that suprising <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"> ).



    The bonus of that approach is that it also keeps strikethrough AA's and mods considerably more useful than they are currently ( sure the overall effect will be lower, but the use you get out of it while cowering behind the mob is zero anyway )





    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>How much DPS is a rogue losing from backstab? How true is it to say that a rogue is at a severe disadvantage when attacking at any angle but the back? Is rogue frontal dps any different then monk?.<hr></blockquote>



    1) 30-50% depending on weapons.

    2) Maximum is 50% loss from backstab, 20% of what's left is mitigated by mob defences, leaving them at 40% of their normal dps worst case.

    3) Yes, it's considerably worse due to lack of triple attack and inferior weapons (even at the very highest end - 23/20 vs 20/19 for example )






    </p>

  25. #225
    Guest

    Default Re: .

    Somewhat late to the thread but:



    THANK YOU SOE (never thought I would say that)



    my pet hates:



    <div style="text-align:center">Ripostes, no chance of mem wipe with FD, and the thought of having to deal with that darned opening system</div>



    and you fix em for me. Great news.



    Aljabik


    </p>

  26. #226
    Enlightened Grandmaster Wubao's Avatar
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    Default Re: .

    "However our burst DPS is severely limited, because of the timers, and because of the endurance. "



    That's pretty much the definition of burst damage. It's supposed to be limited.



    "other classes like rogues and rangers use endurance for their burst dps disc, their special skills (backstab, bow) still put them on a higher dps."



    Neither backstab nor normal non-disc'd bow damage are burst damage.



    And both fall under the SOE "limitation" of being situational.



    Bow damage is useless against corner tanked mobs for instance.



    "You're getting ahead of yourself here. We haven't gotten Phantom Wind yet and the last incarnation of it on Test is still unsuitable for chain pulling (3 minute reuse or something?)"



    The version people are testing has gotten pretty good reveiws so far. I'm getting ahead of myself because everyone else is.



    They're saying "Lull won't help."



    So of coruse I'm going to discuss this lull that we don't have yet.



    All that we have gotten are disc changes. But here, an entire thread talking about UPCOMING changes.



    So yeah, I'm getting ahead of myself. That's the point.



    And the reuse on phantom wind is like 30 seconds. Not 3 minutes.



    "Again this is all fantasy fiction."



    Right. But all I'm doing is trying to straighten out peoples' misperceptions regarding these IDEAS.



    Someone is saying "Oh this won't help at all."



    I make a list detailing how it WILL help, and you reply "This is all fantasy, and hasn't happened yet."



    Duh.






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  27. #227
    Guest

    Default Re: .

    The mitigation nerf is only a part of the balancing puzzle. If you reverse it, monks will become overpowered, and nobody will like that, including myself, a 65 monk, who's been playing for 4+ years now.



    Let's focus on the changes that will allow monks to find a role in game, such as specific DPS (like rogues get with BS), or utilities that are more sought after by a group or raid. The riposte change is a step in the right direction, but a mitigation nerf reversal will not solve either of these, nor balance us at all.




    <div style="text-align:center">S O G G I E X A R C A T I O N

    65 Transcendant

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  28. #228
    Guest

    Default Status Update

    I think the best way to get Monks back involved in groups ect. is to increase their DPS to the same levels as a Rogue. The improved FD will probably aid in pulling but people aren't interested in the pulling capabilities of the Monk anymore because SoE has made so many other classes that can pull. They are interested in how much DPS they can exact on a given mob. A good Monk can pull LDoN groups if he knows what he/she is doing. I pulled two consecutive Adventures today without a single death or bad pull. A Monk must be patient. If you want to put Monks back into the EQ picture I suggest that you 1) Increase the DPS to the same level as rogues. This will allow them to compete for the second or third melee spot that most 6 person groups like to have. 2) Stop adding abilities to the other classes everytime you have a patch. I recently read a post from an SoE representative that said that when trying to balance a scale , do you add weight to both sides expecting to create balance? I'm thinking about starting my own beastlord only guild. We simply send our pets, slow and then cheal the pets as needed. No need for any other class.



    Brother Fanon Faithful

    59th level Monk of the Silent Fist

    Brotherhood of the Lost Circle

    Master of the Shackle of Tynnonium


    </p>

  29. #229
    Guest

    Default Re: .

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Let's focus on the changes that will allow monks to find a role in game, such as specific DPS (like rogues get with BS), or utilities that are more sought after by a group or raid. The riposte change is a step in the right direction, but a mitigation nerf reversal will not solve either of these, nor balance us at all.<hr></blockquote>



    Wrong thread, dead horse, and yes, let's focus on the skill which Kavhok has proposed.



    Would a newfound monk ability to auto-riposte any riposte be any more- or less "overpowering," and what are the tradeoffs if it goes live?



    If there are none, and mitigation and other issues remain to be valid talking points, I'm all for it.



    If not, Hell with it.






    </p>

  30. #230
    Guest

    Default Re: .

    Soggie, if the mitigation nerf were reversed, monks would not be overpowered, except perhaps with relation to other melee and MAYBE a few of the hybrids. With regards to casters, we would still suck. All melee need a boost to our melee ability (DPS/mitigation/avoidance). Monks just need the mitigation part boosted more than others. Unfortunately, the amount of boost that we would need to play the same game as casters would require a boost to our melee abilities that would unbalance raid content and some group content. It's not that we would be unbalanced versus other players. It's that we'd be unbalanced versus the monsters. Previously difficult raids would suddenly become too easy. Guilds would zip past content instead of engaging in the massive timesink it was intended to be.



    Basically, we (melee) all need to melee better, but we'll need utility to make up for what cannot be achieved through melee alone without trivializing game content.



    EDITTED: I wasn't saying that a repeal of the nerf would be unbalanced as someone seemed to think further on down into the thread. We need the nerf repealed. On top of that, we need even more mitigation. So do the other melee classes, though not as much as us. However, the amount of mitigation we would need to be able to perform on the same level as casters would be even greater than this and would tend to unbalance the game. For example, suppose that a 30% boost to our mitigation would undo the nerf. On top of that, maybe a 25% boost for all melee (including monks) might be the maximum that game balance versus raid content would allow. Even with that big a boost, we still couldn't outperform casters. They play a totally different game from us. That doesn't mean I am not in favor of such a boost. I am. In order for us to perform on a level with casters strictly by boosting our mitigation, we'd need something like a 1000% mitigation boost or something equally ridiculous. That's why I believe utility has to come in at some point.




    <div style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:large;">Argfeld</span></div>

    <div style="text-align:center">Order of the Scattered Winds - Bertoxxulous</div>

    <div style="text-align:center"><span style="color:purple;"><span style="text-decoration:underline">Reverse the Monk Mitigation Nerf!</span></span></div></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub147.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=arg feld>Argfeld</A> at: 1/14/04 5:03 pm

  31. #231
    Guest

    Default Re: .

    Kavhok, thanks a lot of keeping us posted and thanks a lot for listening to your playerbase.



    I would be very glad to see the phantom line go in with some form of +END regen added to it, since it will probably heat up some of our ability to either stonestance or damage disc.



    Please repell the mitigation nerf too. It really has no reason of existing.



    As many before me have stated, we really need something to make up for the all-angle dps compared to the current status.

    Riposte is one thing but 100% strikethrough would be a lot better, with some form of riposte immunity.


    And the information minister said:



    "Classes are not that out of balance --AbsorEQ"</p>

  32. #232
    Monk Disciple
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    107

    Default Re: .

    "How many named mobs or higher level mobs do you know of that are not corner tanked?"



    Not many.

    The catch is, WHY are they corner tanked?

    Because everyone but the tank is behind the mob anyway, and because of melee push.

    With these changes you wouldn't have to look for a suitable corner, you let the monks form it. The result is less crowding behind the mob and some very happy rangers.

    And i don't get yelled at for not shrinking... <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">








    Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.</p>
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  33. #233
    Guest

    Default Re: .

    Attack from the front will help monks somewhat. As will the Phantom once-per-8-minutes lull, and mem blur after extended FD.



    None of them will influence class balance, because monks will still have no role in most groups other than moderate DPS and situational pulling.



    I approve of these changes if they're just a minor effort to fix a few niggling monk issues.



    I sincerely hope they're not diverting resource from class balance issues though.


    </p>

  34. #234
    SkyKungfu
    Guest

    Default Re: .

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The mitigation nerf is only a part of the balancing puzzle. If you reverse it, monks will become overpowered, and nobody will like that<hr></blockquote>



    FUCK YOU



    Not this BS again. Someone that didn't even notice the mitigation nerf now explains to SOE that monks will be overpowered if its reversed ? FU damn troll.



    Sky


    </p>

  35. #235
    Apostle Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Posts
    300

    Default Re: .

    Soggie, go fsck yourself. Monks were never overpowered.



    Argfeld, it wouldn't overpower us at all. The current gear puts us behind plate and chain classes for mitigation regardless because we can't compete on AC anymore. The only thing reversing the nerf would do at this stage of the game is to allow us to mitigate as well as BST and DRU, which is how it should be. I do agree on the utility, though. If they can't give us a clear superiority in offense and defense over casters and hybrids, then the pure melee classes need to match casters and hybrids in utility.




    ---

    I *am* the Chinpokomon master!</p>
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    I *am* the Chinpokomon master!

  36. #236
    Guest

    Default Re: .

    The real benefit I see in the "no ripost while not on top of agro list" deal is a security benefit. We can be all around the mob, we can have people accidentaly (or maliciously!! hehe) turn the mob and be safe. That's something.



    Is there an additional benefit though? DPS is not an answer. Why? Even if we managed to do MORE dps from the front than from the back, would we really do it constantly? Will the MT really like to be drown in a swarm of monks? Will we stop cornering mobs to allow for the l33t monk dps to be applied? Will it help positioning or make it more tedious? My bet is no. Even if we do more dps from the front, most of the time we will stay in the back, unless the benefit is dramatic. But we now it will not be, because monks from the front will never do, and should not do, the same damage than rogues from the back.



    Being safe to fight all around the mob is definitely a boost for mob positioning though.



    So in the end of the day what do we get with this change: a little boost in survivability, which is cool and should be one of the main direction used for monk balance. A little boost in dps when mobs are out of control. A solid boost in dps when positioning hard hitting mobs (I don't know about you, but when I want to dragon punch a 2k hitting mob in the face, I tend to turn off attack).



    I consider it to be a nice but minor tweak. What I would like to see is rather:



    - Increased survivability against spells. It can be done through innate spell shield or favored resistance checks.. or both!



    - Better CC tools. Example: AoE shadow step + 6sec stun -> unpacks the mobs to allow easier targetting. Another one (property of Itzlegend): big knock back + short duration but high percentage snare -> sends a mob away from the camp and buys you some time while he comes back.


    Sensei:Szlia:Southpaw

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  37. #237
    Monk Disciple
    Join Date
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    167

    Default overpwer?

    Overpower us? Soggie you are funny.



    I guess we will then begin quad kiting in HoH?



    Sensei Brotor Tiller

    Rathe


    </p>
    All general statements are wrong.

  38. #238
    Guest

    Default Phantom

    The Phantom line will give us back some of our ability to pull for xp groups, but they would probably work a little better if they had a slightly longer duration (1 minute), slightly shorter "cast" (20 sec), and were on different "Timers". That way, we could run in, lull 2 or possibly 3 mobs, and pull the remainder. A single lull is going to be very difficult to pull with, especially in LDoN, because the mobs are packed so tightly in the rooms that it is INCREDIBLY hard to single pull. Hell, Clerics are pulling in some of the groups I'm in (assuming Pallys arn't available). The only other way I could see this working to our advantage is if there is a higher-level Phantom skill coming that is AoE (or even PB AoE), or if there is an AA ability coming to make existing Phantom lull's into AoE. Not saying I don't want Lull, but I also want it to be something usable, instead of window dressing.



    As was stated previously, another way to balance the melee classes would be to take a look at what we are using for damage output now. A off-hand damage bonus would be great. If I was a dev, I would look at putting the same damage bonus as on primary on off-hand for Monks and Rogues, and probably doubling current damage bonus for Warriors (dmg done does help with maintaining aggro), also on both hands. There IS a reason for using two weapons, and if you have dual wield you should probably be using it. Hybrids will still have primary hand damage bonus, plus spells, so they shouldn't camplain much. If they want to make prereqs for it, I would be happy to spend some more AA; give us something that requires Ambidexterity as a prereq and call it good. For extra DPS, we'll take the time to AAXP grind...



    Just my 2cp.


    </p>

  39. #239
    Guest

    Default Re: overpwer?

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The mitigation nerf is only a part of the balancing puzzle. If you reverse it, monks will become overpowered, and nobody will like that, including myself, a 65 monk, who's been playing for 4+ years now.<hr></blockquote>





    RrrraaaaahhhhH!!!! Rrrraaaahhhh!!



    Now enter, TROLL!!



    I really wish, if you were going to continue to spew this shit, you would crawl back into the hole you came out of. And if you didnt come out of a hole, we can all join in and help dig you one.








    If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me.

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    Brother Poppso

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  40. #240
    Guest

    Default Re: overpwer?

    Soggie doesn't play the same game as most of you. For starters, he has a 2box shaman, so grouping is a different situation for him.



    Overpowered... some comments...

    #1: I recently parsed against a similarly geared (Time) ranger using the exact same weapons/AA's in a LDON mission to simply see who could do more damage over time. I did 195K weapon melee damage, he did 180K weapon melee damage... (you'll note I'm not using monk-specific weapons, but that was the purpose of the parse) and his only complaint (the character is an alt, albeit a 600 AA / 7K unbuffed alt) was that he had only FT3 and ran out of mana too fast, he did a mere 45K damage with his spells - and 20K with his damage shield. I did a mere 2100 with my Ring10 <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> Final tallies were 265K damage for me, and 290K damage for him. We each parsed ourselves to have absolute certainty over our numbers and used the same program and same start/end time.

    #2: I recently grouped with a fairly gimp ranger (3K unbuffed) who managed to do crowd control via flamelick/ensnare and root whenever we had more than 3 in camp. One ranger, 5 mobs, no problem. His crowd control and agro management made the group much easier, given that I was the only person above 4K unbuffed hp.

    #3: I recently grouped with a guildmate ranger and, when the shit hit the fan and I ran my cleric away, he (being totally lost and having no clue which way to run to the exit) said "fuck it I'm going to kill them all" and proceded to lay it down on the 7 mobs we had in camp. He had already snared them all, so all he had to do was avoid them while doing damage, and fortunately we were in a big open room. My cleric zoned out, back in, healed him&Ssar, rez'd the shaman, and by then there were only 3 mobs left.

    #4: Just for kicks (after Soggie's taunt propaganda) I grouped with an even weak ranger than posted above and, midway through the adv, asked him to taunt off of my 54/30 + 200dd/stun +150dd weapon. He did, no problem.



    Am I saying rangers are overpowered? No. I'm doing a comparison of how they can use their abilities to interact with the environment; in every situation they did something needed and beyond my ability. I'm also pointing out that while I can outdamage a ranger in similar gear with pure melee, pure melee is not the measure of all things.



    The monk mitigation nerf was a bad fix to several problems in game:

    * Warriors, Rogues, and Monks mitigating equally

    * A plethora of high AC armor for monks



    The current design has reversed both those points (monks nerfed, warriors boosted, new gear has much more monk-centric AC - Thott complains to take All/All gear he loses out on a lot of AC, and it's true!) and in addition the situation that monks used to favor -- low mob damage + high monk regen -- no longer exists. SOE has moved us further and further toward grouping being the only option - you can argue among yourselves whether that's bad or good, but you gain substantially more exp grouped than solo, and LDON is meant for grouping.



    There is no point to the mitigation nerf now.



    Monks are still one of the worst classes out there, due almost entirely to the fact we're entirely gear dependant and our good gear is all high end.



    - Ssarvhok




    </p>

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