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Thread: Status Update

  1. #81
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Bottom line, enhance my pulling ability (which Lull does), give me some new skills or innate abilities which boost my relative DPS somewhat (which was partially accomplished with the new/adjusted disciplines), and FULLY reverse the mitigation nerf, I'll be a fairly happy monk...<hr></blockquote>



    I'll add a big fat ditto to the above.


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  2. #82
    SkyKungfu
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>It would make the damage done from the front slightly more than the done from the back with AA's, a little less without them. <hr></blockquote>



    If you manage to get it to work this way, its a nice change imo.



    Sky


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  3. #83
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default re: update

    Kavhok,

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    Sorry for not posting earlier. We've been busy with expansion issues since returning to work. We are still working on melee issues, though.

    <hr></blockquote>

    Glad to hear it, and thanks for continuing to come talk with us. Your time is appreciated.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    The Phantom line is back on the merchants on Test and Beta. No changes have been made to it since the last update.

    <hr></blockquote>

    Excellent news, thank you <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> I am looking forward to having access to these skills.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The opening system as it was on Test will probably not return. The goal was to make combat more interesting and add some reactiveness, but the attention required and randomness of it didn't do much to help with the class balance aspect. We'd rather use skills like the Phantom and Incite line, disciplines, and innate abilities to define and refine the class' role.

    <hr></blockquote>

    Also excellent news, and I fully agree with your reasoning here. Balance should come from things that are either always on, or under the players control via hotbutton. Timers to limit uses per hour are fine; RNG-based openings don't really qualify..



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>

    One of the ideas brought up by some players that seemed solid was a way to make monks better at dealing melee damage from any angle. When a monk is fighting from the front, but not tanking, he wouldn't be riposted. When the NPC would have riposted, the monk will instead attack it. The result is that the monk would do about the same damage from the front as from the back and, as long as he wasn't tanking, wouldn't take any riposte damage. Any thoughts on this one?

    <hr></blockquote>

    Other people have brought this up in the thread already, but I will echo it: fighting from behind avoids ripostes AND dodges AND parries, so Monks would still be better off fighting from behind when not tanking, even if this new rule was added. Fighting from behind the mob already provides 100% strikethrough for free to all melee classes.



    Unless Monks are given 100% Strikethrough (when not tanking) to every single flavor of mob defense, they will still be better off fighting from behind. Unfortunately, I have the feeling that the current live team thinks of Strikethrough as an incredibly powerful ability, something to be doled out in tiny amounts on Time equipment, or for large amounts of AAs in GoD. I believe this is an inappropriate way to value Strikethrough, one that significantly overestimates its true value to a non-tanking melee.



    Because of that, I'd hate to have this feature added to the list of balance changes and valued as a "huge boost", when in fact it's nothing I don't have already, just by paying attention to where the mob is facing. It would be a "cute" feature, like dodging attacks from behind. The actual impact on the Monk class's desireability would be minimal.


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  4. #84
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    Default Re: Status Update

    This is a good thing. Obviously, there are still quite a few improvements that need to be made to monks. (Probably to warriors and rogues too, but that is outside my area of expertise.)



    I'm glad to see that the crew at SoE are still working on the monk problem. It makes me feel there is hope.



    I have to echo the "reverse the monk nerf" sentiment. If perchance that encroaches on the turf of warriors, by all means, boost them proportionately as well. I have nothing against warriors having as much mitigation as they can get. I just don't like seeing us turned into wimps. When a monk walks into a bar full of tough guys with tattoos and lots of body piercings, people should think, "That monk is going to kick the ass of every guy in this room!", not "That poor monk is going to get his ass kicked."



    We'll see if monk DPS from the front is worth bothering with. I'm sure somebody will parse the heck out of it when it goes live.








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  5. #85
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: Status Update

    Good notes and good comments all around so far, with the usual exclusions.



    Enraging mobs, Rampaging mobs. Effects on Block and Dodge aswell as Riposte?



    Let's see how it parses out? When and where can we test this idea, and see some hard numbers on it's effects?



    And who is hiding the parse of the druid mitigating better than a monk? Anyone?



    Wastrel da Leezurd.


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  6. #86
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    Default Re: Status Update

    As to the move to the front thing.



    I like the concept of being all around DPS.



    I think that, coupled with situations where mobs are immune to Backstab / back of mob is inaccessable/just as dangerous would provide somewhat of a role here for us.



    Personally, I would like to see our riposte aa (double riposte) fire on any return riposte. I also think that our return kick AA should have a small chance of fireing on every attack (not just ones we take) in such a way that we should be getting on a regular basis: 4 attacks main hand and 2 offhand (with the new AA discs), 2 attacks from double riposte, 1 attack from return kick...meaning that a round from the front that lands all attacks should bring us 9 to 10 attacks...that's a significant upgrade.



    Also, consider for the monk class something that monks by design have had in all games up to EQ...stunning blow. A low agro stun button (disc?) that can be clicked a certain number of times a day / on a certain timer (once every 5 minutes say). I would prefer a 10 time a day use to a 5 minute timer, but however it can be done. Make the stun low agro (so that we're not using it to be a paladin light). This provides monks a role that doesn't exist in the game...but should.



    Caster's bane. The disc/ability would make all attacks within a certain time frame have the potential to proc a stun...maybe just a 0 second spell interrupting stun. A better implimentation would be the next strike that hits and all consecutive strikes for x time do a 0 second stun (instead of a proc ability).



    I think with a stunning attack and moving back around the front of the mob (with our possitioning AAs) we become a very good utility DPS character. With Lull we become a good second string puller as well.



    Utility, stun, mob possitioning, second or third best puller, and good dps from all around the mob. THIS is good utility.



    Exactly what we've been asking for for a LONG time.


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  7. #87
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: Status Update

    LoK<blockquote>Quote:<hr>As you can see, Riposte is not really the whole problem, Dodge and Parries are 2/3rds of the problem.<hr></blockquote>Kavhok<blockquote>Quote:<hr>We were thinking more that this would have some chance to double attack innately. Double-riposte and return-kick AA's would make a possible third attack.<hr></blockquote>So....



    Only 2/3's of our currently deflected "from the front" attacks would continue to be deflected.



    1/3 of our currently deflected "from the front" attacks would now potentially do up to double damage.



    And we'd never get riposted ( unless we're top of the aggro list ).



    Depending on what percentage of our attacks from the front are currently deflected ( as opposed to the 0% that are deflected when attacking from behind ) and depending on what percentage of our rip-ripostes were actually double attacks this could be a very very close thing.



    Would double riposte and return kick stack?



    At what level would monks gain the rip-riposte ability? Most logically, not until after having attained riposte itself, but how long after? Simultaneously? Upon riposte mastery ( skill 100 )? Grand Mastery ( skill 200 )?


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  8. #88
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    Default Re: Status Update

    I have to agree with others, that while it would be nice, we will probaly stay at the rear of the mob, for the extra dps, in most situations. Wich doesn't really address the balance problems.


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  9. #89
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    Default Re: Status Update

    Thanks for the clarification Kavhok. If the intent is to balance it in a way that really encourages Double Riposte and Return Kick (which many monks avoided until the very last of AA's were filled) - that is a great idea. Making it so that with the proper AA a monk is MORE deadly from the front - it is starting to give monks a niche. Adding in a partial innate strikethrough to dodge, parry, and block (which is further enhanced by the upcoming strikethrough AA) would also help solidify this niche and is a way to obtain the balance of a monk becoming more deadly in front of a mob than behind it.



    Kudos to the dev team for showing that monks are worth developing into a worthy class.


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  10. #90
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    Default Re: Status Update

    One thing of note:



    While the riposte immunity thing is actually very good, and I think should go in, I don't think riposte immunity in and of itself fixes the monk class or brings it back to where it is supposed to be in lines of casters.



    My compitition for group spots is in the DPS field. If I happen to be there to pull I can pull, but when a group is being put together, my competitive spot is the DPS spot. And right now, I definately don't stack up with DPS. Adding riposte of riposte is good (allowing our return kick and double riposte AAs to function is better), I still think we're lacking in comparison to the wizards and rogues out there.



    An offhand damage bonus would CERTAINLY help this situation out ALOT.



    Just more fuel for the fire of your thoughts.


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  11. #91
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Hypothetically, if they're the same DPS or even slightly more from the front as Kavhok stated, is that a good thing? Regardless of the mechanics...<hr></blockquote>If you accept that current monk DPS problems are the result of a relative dearth of weapon choices at any level other than PoTime, then yes, maintaining or even very slightly improving our DPS thru all attack angles is a beautiful thing, imho.



    IMO, Time monks are pretty good in the DPS department, as are twink monks.



    It's the average casual monk that is having severe DPS issues compared to other classes.



    Of course this comparison happens because that is the grouping slot we are most often considered for. Perhaps that will be changing as well with some of the new stuff we're getting.



    There just aren't a lot of viable weapon alternatives once you exhaust the twinking possibilities ( or if you can't take advantage of them ) until you start raiding.


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  12. #92
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    Default Re: Status Update

    I have to agree that in addition to the Riposte changes (which ARE nice if they go live), an OFFHAND damage bonus would really help. If fact go ahead and give it to dual wield pure melee classes, but like mitigation, you could use a sliding scale where Monks get the largest offhand bonus while Warriors get a slightly smaller offhand bonus, etc.



    This woul allow Warriors to retain the more Defense oriented stance you like them to have (you did up their innate mitigation another 5%); while giving us higher DPS (and making the Ambidexterity AA more worth the 9 point cost) and keeping us firmly in the "Hits damn hard, but when hit gets hammered" stance that SoE seems to want to adopt for us.



    Just a thought.


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  13. #93
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    "The Phantom line is back on the merchants on Test and Beta. No changes have been made to it since the last update."



    Good to hear. Over the past two weeks, I've been in instances of pulling where I absolutely know this skill would have helped me. I eagerly anticipate a chance to try this out and see how it works.



    "We are in the process of adding +endurance to existing items. It will be about as prevalent as +mana is for hybrids."



    Also very good to hear. Especially in light of you mentioning the future of endurance skills being more like incite, where they are triggered abilities. A larger pool is probably going to be needed to utilize different abilities, even situationally.



    "One of the ideas brought up by some players that seemed solid was a way to make monks better at dealing melee damage from any angle. When a monk is fighting from the front, but not tanking, he wouldn't be riposted. When the NPC would have riposted, the monk will instead attack it. The result is that the monk would do about the same damage from the front as from the back and, as long as he wasn't tanking, wouldn't take any riposte damage. Any thoughts on this one? "



    I like this idea. I like it a lot.



    Pros:



    It helps balance out push, which many people will find useful in raiding situations.



    It helps free up more of the backspace of a mob to the rogues who already have to squeeze in tight to get their backstabs in.



    It does indeed underscore the description that we are best dps from any angle.



    It helps with push in non-raiding situations too. XP groups and the like. Which I think will be noticable eventually.



    Cons:



    Mobs still have defenses from the front, right? Even if we cut through riposte? They'll still dodge and block from the front, which they don't do from the back, right? Will this then not be much of a boost to our DPS? Just our freedom of movement?



    Someone mentioned earlier how hard it would be to code something involving a check on if a monk was tanking or not.



    The only advice I offer is that if you assist a mob, you get it's target, which is the tank.



    So I don't think that would be too drastic a thing to code.



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  14. #94
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    Default Re: .

    That will take some balancing but if you can pull it off, I would be pleased with that.


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  15. #95
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    Default Re: .

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>-riposte and return-kick AA's<hr></blockquote>



    K could you clear something up once and for all then.



    I and almost every monk I know have steered clear of Return Kick.



    Kick is not as powerful in a riposte situation as my 2hb weapon is (up to 597 where a kick max is 300~)



    We have refrained from getting this AA, as we have not been able to determine..



    If we riposte for 7% of time, and we get Return Kick, will we still riposte for 7% of the time, except now 2%~ of those would be kicks.



    Which in effect would be a 'decrease' in DPS.



    I am working on stats I don't need cause I am at 305 across the board, rather then risk getting this AA and lowering my DPS.



    Could you please tell us if that if we riposte for 7% of the time, and Kick ripostes would be 2% of that, we would then riposte for 9% of the time?



    Or just put us out of our misery and tell us we are right, we would riposte for only 7% of the time, even with Return Kick and it would be a lowering of our DPS, since then we could strike it off the list along with acrobatics.


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  16. #96
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    Default Re: ...

    Thank you for removing the opening system.



    As to the immunity to riposte:



    I have always wanted this as we are supposed to be the best melee from any angle not just the back. HOWEVER I do NOT think that we should auto-riposte a riposte we should only auto-dodge it. If we were to get an attack on a riposte it would open up a whole new can of worms regarding 1h vs 2h viability and DPS issues, therefore we should do NO damage on a riposte just merely not take any. This ability should NOT be used to balance the monk class. It SHOULD be put in, as it will add something to make the monk unique but it will NOT increase our DPS (it will actually make it less if we fight from the front), it will not fix our mitigation, and it will not make us any more desirable in groups. It IS a VERY good idea but it shouldn't be used as a balancing factor.



    PS - Give monks an offhand damage bonus innate flurry, and a flurry enhancement AA to balance us DPS wise.


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  17. #97
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    Default Re: ...

    You know what? Something tells me that people are getting fired over at SoE. Either that or there is one hell of a restructuring going on in their entire setup. Either way, /clap to you. Making me want to play more.


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  18. #98
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    Default Re: ...

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>We were thinking more that this would have some chance to double attack innately. Double-riposte and return-kick AA's would make a possible third attack. It would make the damage done from the front slightly more than the done from the back with AA's, a little less without them.<hr></blockquote>



    One word "perfect".



    For those that missed it:

    This is not meant to be a dps boost, its meant to be a "you can do the "same" amount of dps at the front than at the back", not more. Having the AAs helping to slightly increase it is a great idea.


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  19. #99
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    Default Re: ...

    It's refreshing to see a positive thread like this again. Kudos to the dev team for starting to get up a good head of steam on the issues we have been trying to address here. I certainly would like to see the riposte resistance as well. My wish list is not long, just make us a desirable group class again and I will be very happy. Being able to solo half-decently on top of that would make me ecstatic.


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  20. #100
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>One of the ideas brought up by some players that seemed solid was a way to make monks better at dealing melee damage from any angle. When a monk is fighting from the front, but not tanking, he wouldn't be riposted. When the NPC would have riposted, the monk will instead attack it. The result is that the monk would do about the same damage from the front as from the back and, as long as he wasn't tanking, wouldn't take any riposte damage. Any thoughts on this one? <hr></blockquote>



    I have one thought on this.



    YES.


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  21. #101
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The More I am thinking about this, the more I am starting to feel it wont have much of an effect as it is currently envisioned.



    From the rear, we negate Riposte, Block, Dodge, and Parry. This is a significant advantage.



    From the front, as envisioned, we would essentially have a strikethrough via Rip-Riposte. Even if we have our double Rip and return kick setup, I dont think we going to see damage levels that will make us want to see monks toe to toe to mobs.<hr></blockquote>



    I agree we'll still have reduced DPS from the front.



    However,



    1. The reduction won't be massive. probably under 5%

    2. We get to stand in front of the mob w/o getting riposted -- something no other class can do. We've been asking for something like that for ages.



    For the dedicated raider, IMO its well worth trading 5% DPS for that advantage on PoP+ mobs.



    For the sub-PoP crowd (under 55 or whatever) this won't make much difference.



    So overall I think it's a good change.



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  22. #102
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>One of the ideas brought up by some players that seemed solid was a way to make monks better at dealing melee damage from any angle. When a monk is fighting from the front, but not tanking, he wouldn't be riposted. When the NPC would have riposted, the monk will instead attack it. The result is that the monk would do about the same damage from the front as from the back and, as long as he wasn't tanking, wouldn't take any riposte damage. Any thoughts on this one? <hr></blockquote>



    I like the idea of monks not taking riposte damage but I would rather it not add to a monks damage out put. Why? It's just to random to make a good difference and it's out of our control.



    If mitigation isn't changed back, please consider giving monks 360 defensives and remove our increased chance to get stunned while running. I know it sounds extreme but with mitigation as it is now it would help us pull.


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  23. #103
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    Default Re: re: update

    Quote

    ---------

    Unless Monks are given 100% Strikethrough (when not tanking) to every single flavor of mob defense, they will still be better off fighting from behind. Unfortunately, I have the feeling that the current live team thinks of Strikethrough as an incredibly powerful ability, something to be doled out in tiny amounts on Time equipment, or for large amounts of AAs in GoD. I believe this is an inappropriate way to value Strikethrough, one that significantly overestimates its true value to a non-tanking melee.

    ---------

    Actually we don't need 100% strikethrough to be effective.



    Yes, we get that from behind true, but with no added attacks.



    If I can do 4 attacks from behind and 7 from the front, then it becomes benificial for me to move around to the front, particularly if i'm not getting eaten by riposts.



    Even if those 4 attacks land 65% of the time and my front 7 attacks 55% of the time, I STILL do more DPS (generally) from the front.



    It's all a matter of looking at it. This can be tuned to work effectively.



    The strikethrough aas make this even MORE feasable...for each strikethrough percentage you get you become MORE a front monk than a back monk due to the fact that you can hit more often from the front than the back.



    Behind = accuracy

    In front of = # of attacks.



    Brings a new level of interesting to our parses however...<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">






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  24. #104
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    Default Return Kick

    I retract my original comment... return kick is apparently fixed.



    Sounds like a great idea!


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  25. #105
    Guest

    Default Re: re: update

    Why would you attack from the front even with this change?


    FREN

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  26. #106
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    Default response on repost

    Thank you for your time and continued dialogue with your customers (especially us folks that want to make this class work with the most enthusiasm).



    I really love the ideas I am hearing as well as the adaptations by the development team. Big kudos.



    FD fail spell resist AA is very good. 2min FD mem wipe is good. Our disc rework is great (some of our disc still need tweaking though - ie. ashan hand and planeswalk). Phantom line is a fantastic idea, thanks for keeping it on the plate.



    For the positioning purposes (esp since pet pushing classes are so popular right now) and if enrage + normal reposte does not effect monks that makes most planes fighting very desirable from the front as well as the wish to buy those aa that only made sense if monks still tanked. As astutely mentioned earlier, if monks made a reposte response like the mob falling on its own blade that would provide a HUGE reason to have monks in a group or raid. Considering so many planar mobs enrage near death and some are unslowable that suddenly makes monks extremely valuable for that last huge DPS push to kill a mob if its own enraging 500-3khp attacks hit itself (short term situational massive burst DPS is what we have been dying for even if its not our own damage). Heck if that's too powerful to be on all the time make our own attacks reposte normally and give us a disc/skill to make a mob reposte on itself (I'm laughing at the idea of being the only class that wants to use 1h weapons during enrage muahahaha).

    I'm fine with the opening 'hit the mole system' being scrapped although there were a choice few abilities I would like to see added as innate endurance abilties. Leg sweep, a stunning ability (mostly for limited situation aggro build or to interrupt casting), tranquil force, and possibly dragon strike would all be very nice.



    I like the idea that monks could also have equal off-hand and primary hand damage bonus and/or double attack %. It makes logical sense for our class more then any other class (and gives a good reason why beastlords should sacrifice some melee ability to have pets and spells). It would be a much desired DPS boost without stepping on too many folks toes (except those that already have roles and are simply jealous they dont get something would).



    Even though the mitigation negative was given based on tank perceived 'imbalances' it should be removed for the simple reason of nonmelee leather wearing classes' mitigation 'advantages', which is both illogical and ludicrous.



    Lastly, any possibilty of monks getting an innate disc/skill that makes a temporary mez of a mob (or extra long stun even)? Could envision an ability where a neck strike paralyzes the mob for 3-4 ticks or one called 'pinning' where you lock the mob in a pin (perhaps neither you nor the mob can attack or cast until timer wears off or you stand up and break the effect). Would be like a forced mob fd tango with you.







    Chaitea

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  27. #107
    Guest

    Default Re: re: update

    I love this idea but with one change.



    Why not just give us 100% strikethrough if not tanking. That way our DPS is equal to being behind the mob. On top of that add in the "return reposite" skill and we will do MORE damage from the front. Why make us do equal damage from the front? Rogues are the best damage from behind. Why not just let us be the best damage from the front. If you did this I dont see how we would take the role of TOP DPS because the extra damage would rely on the RNG for reposites, while Rogues would keep the TOP DPS because their added damage (backstab) is consistent.


    </p>

  28. #108
    Guest

    Default Re: re: update

    I wouldn't worry about doing less damage from the front, parse it and show its not doing more then from the back and it'll get tuned until it does more from the front, after all thats what the entire point is, "It would make the damage done from the front slightly more than the done from the back with AA's."



    hmm, feels kinda odd to have faith in my class suddenly.


    leldil

    transcendent



    "For the game to be fun, everyone needs to feel like they contribute in a reasonable manner. When one is offering less than most, it's a good thing for us to find a way to improve their contribution" AbsorEq</p>

  29. #109
    Guest

    Default Re: re: update

    No more openings, Monk Lull, +Endurance items, riposte immunity - good news all around! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">



    One minor - and largely cosmetic - suggestion, though.



    Would it be possible to adjust the displayed AC value to reflect our actual AC since the mitigation change? AC is hard to compare to begin with (due to the differences between the way different classes mitigate vs. avoid), but the way it stands, Monk's displayed AC is more confusing than helpful.



    To give you a simple example, if I am grouped with a Cleric and a Beastlord of the same level/AAs and I have 1225 buffed AC versus his 1150 buffed AC, how are we to know which one of us would make a better MT?



    Anyway, great news and thanks for the post! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">


    Scalia, 58 Monk


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  30. #110
    Enlightened Grandmaster
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    Default Re: re: update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Why would you attack from the front even with this change?<hr></blockquote>



    Because they just it would be equal to or above the DPS from behind due to certain AA's. Mob ripostes and monk gets a additional attack. Mob ripostes, and monks with return kick and the like get even more attacks.



    More attacks can potentally equate to more DPS. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> Hence...people will stand in front.


    <div style="text-align:center"></div><div style="text-align:center"><span style="font-family:Papyrus;font-size:small;">Gaereth - Monk of the 60th Season - Quellious</span></div>

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  31. #111
    Guest

    Default Re: ...

    Khavok, thank you once more for the open communication you have deveolped with our community. It is truly appreciated, as is the removal of the "opening system" from consideration.
    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>It would make the damage done from the front slightly more than the done from the back with AA's, a little less without them. <hr></blockquote>

    If this is the guiding principle (and I believe that it is) the devs use to make this possible change work it is a very welcome change.



    Alternatives hae been suggested here and are worth thinking about. Those include 1) having us "throw back" the mobs riposte (have the mob hit with the damage they would have hit us with) or 2) having us immune to all defensive abilities of a mob as long as we're in front and not tanking (defined as on top of the hate list). The first is probably overpowering, though I have no data to look at to know for sure. The second has promise because we would do equal damage from the front and back and it is simple.



    However, I prefer the devs idea of doing a bit more damage from the front (so long as I am immune to riposte in anything adopted that is). I would like to see that idea implemented, but with the following change. I would like to see the return damage 1) done on all defensive abilities of the mob (parry, riposte, block, dodge, etc.) and 2) with NO double ripostes or return kicks allowed when not tanking but 3) with a percentage reduction in the damage done to the mob by our mob defensive induced hits. The percentage could be adjusted to make the damage from the front what the devs want it to be. This serves the additional issue of helping lower level monks gain in group desireability and not only those with AA's. For those interested in the realism, the idea is that we use some power to "block, parry, riposte or strikethrough" the mob's hit and have a reduced amout of power left with which to damage our opponent. A regular check for a strikethrough AA would allow for full strength damage a percentage of the time for those who have such an AA (if we get one). With this idea the 2HB vs. kick problem is eliminated and the basic idea is intact.



    Aside from the front vs. back damage issue, an immunity from Riposte is a huge plus. It is true that the riposte (or complete defensive hits) immunity wouldn't, in and of itself, help monks as a class get more exp groups (there are many with this problem despite the comments to the contrary on this board). However, if this immunity is combined with small increase in frontal dps AND with new dps increasing abilities and disciplines (new AA's won't help lower level monks who could still have the grouping perception problem) the net effect with proper spin could be a plus in making monks more desireable in exp groups.


    <hr />
    Frenzeed 61st Monk
    Dragons of Mist
    Ayonae Ro



    Fren's Finery



    <div style="text-align:center"><span style="font-family:TimesNewRoman;">We must strive to act judiciously and with patience, for those traits lead to the growth of wisdom.</span></div></p>

  32. #112
    Guest

    Default Re: Status Update

    I'm still a little confused about this... lemme state what I'm reading and hope someone can clarify:



    If we attack a mob from the front (with this change) while not the tank (we're not top on the aggro list) and the mob ripostes, the riposte is ignored and we get one more attack. Does this mean that our original attack landed AND we get another attack? Or does it mean that the original attack (which was riposted) goes away and we take a new attack (which may or may not land)?



    The first one means we'd get an additional attack on mob ripostes (under the above conditions) rarely. The second means that the mob, instead of riposting, causes us to make a new tohit roll to replace the first one rarely... which it can then proceed to use all its defensive skills on again.



    I'm still a little unclear why it was said we'd be getting 7 attacks per round instead of 4 (as sample numbers I guess). The first possibility above seems like it would move us from 4 to 4.X (where X = 4 * the riposte % of the mob .. 0.05?)... the second one would move us from 4 to 3.Y (where Y = 1-some number less than X).



    Doesn't seem that impressive to me as a source of extra damage. I still think we need just a flat 100% ability to be immune to defensive capabilities if we are not the tank.



    Berfert


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  33. #113
    Guest

    Default Re: Status Update

    I don't agree with the people who think mitigation is fine. How can you make the plate - leather argument and think it's fine when a caster(druid) takes damage better than melee (monk) with the same AC. Its not right that when I pull mobs to my group, its almost better for me to FD them onto casters than to stand until agro is taken off, other mobs mezzed, etc. Until a monk has high end gear, the mitigation nerf still hurts pretty bad.



    And to the real topic, VERY SWEEEEET. This and the FD full mem wipe after ~2 minutes are incredible.


    Sensei Girth Matters

    Eurotrash Wanna-be

    62466, Do it yourself.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub147.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gir thyboy>GirthyBoy</A> at: 1/9/04 9:08 pm

  34. #114
    Guest

    Default Re: Status Update

    *** Warning : Long and Boring, but Well-reasoned Reply ahead! ***



    Note: Kavhok's text is quoted using Bold and my comments are made using regular text and regular italics as needed, for emphasis.







    "The Phantom line is back on the merchants on Test and Beta. No changes have been made to it since the last update."



    In the very least, please consider reducing the number of Tomes.



    There's no real role-playing value to having to acquire 4 different Tomes to augment *the* job Monks have had since beta... Bards only require 2 Songs their entire career. Ditto Druids and Rangers (Harmony line) and Pallies, and Clerics and Enchanters which need three different spells throughout their careers.



    Four upgrades to the same skill/spell seems excessive to me, and considering how much less useful it is by itself I think that Monks should be more in-line with Bards or Druids on this issue... One Phantom_X Tome which works on critters up to level 60, and the Next Phantom_X which works on NPC's up to level 65 or 66... especially also considering that the spell itself is much 'gimped' from regular Harmony/Pacify, and secondly, that Monks shouldn't stand out among melee classes as the most "Tome Dependant."









    "We are in the process of adding +endurance to existing items. It will be about as prevalent as +mana is for hybrids."



    As long as there are token amounts available on gear which is appropriate for the lowest "Tome" levels, and much more available at the "Dicipline" levels... I'd like to suggest putting the most +END on Class Specific armor (Velious, Ornate, Elemental, and even old PoFear Shiverback so that they're a viable choice again... well, at least "a choice" instead of "auto-rot"), followed by certain pieces of cross-class armor (Flayed Barbarian Skin Leggings for example, and a few NToV-level items such as the Silver Charm of Tranquility if possible), and for certain, Monks would like to see a substantial reward for the ass-pain that it is our Epic: Celestial Fists ( +100 END e.g.).



    Given that Monks are (arguably) the most "discipline dependant" of the present three Melee Classes (we burn them both pulling and fighting), and that most Monks will never outgrow their Epic (though Warriors and Rogues will), it's not unreasonable to ask for such a high amount of +END on the Celestial Fists, is it?



    The goal of this re-itemization should be to augment what present Monks are able to attain, rather than create an even greater disparity amongst those who are already Time-geared and those who may never even see the Elemental Planes, though the rewards should be noticibly better on Ele and PoTime gear, they should not be regarded as necessary. Elemental Armor is already substantially better than regular Ornate, and +END upgrades should be proportionally-, not exponentially-, different.









    "The opening system as it was on Test will probably not return."



    It was a good experiment, but this is definitely one case where the con's simply outweighed the pro's.









    "The goal was to make combat more interesting and add some reactiveness, but the attention required and randomness of it didn't do much to help with the class balance aspect."



    Right. There are a Myriad of other means of making combat "more interesting"; critical kicks, special NPC emotes (e.g.- a_goblin_warder says,'OMG that HURT!'), and special attacks and abilities which simply do not require distraction from the number one reason EQ has thrived: Social Interaction.



    That is the ability to chat with others while performing one's basic class-functions ingame.



    Players who declare "I'm bored while fighting" wouldn't be any LESS BORED after having a bunch of missed "openings" in a row- in fact, they'd then be both bored and frustrated, and would've given up the chance to partake of the social-side of EverQuest. A hefty "opportunity cost" indeed.



    B'sides, it was surely bad for the 2-box players, and scaled badly for those who regularly played even more "multiple character" arrangements.









    "We'd rather use skills like the Phantom and Incite line, disciplines, and innate abilities to define and refine the class' role."



    So long as SOE downplays the fact that Melee Classes are now "stamina-casters"... focus more on innate abilities, improved versions of what already defines us (Your recent change to Feign Death, for example), you'll have a winner.



    If this escalates into "Monks must have Tome_of_X" in order to be recruited by a guild or preferred for a group then you've got a LOSER of an idea, and creates imbalance WITHIN the Monk Class.



    For example: Think about whether or not you'd group-with, or guild, a level 60 Enchanter without the KEI spell... or a level 63 Cleric who doesn't yet have the spell "Virtue" or even "Aegeolism."



    The damage may already have been done with the Phantom line, and we can expect more mistakes to follow until some Dev or another puts a halt to cramming more and more Tomes into the Melee Players' repertoires.









    "One of the ideas brought up by some players that seemed solid was a way to make monks better at dealing melee damage from any angle."



    Which is silly.. because we should already do this.









    "When a monk is fighting from the front, but not tanking, he wouldn't be riposted."



    Which is again silly, because unless an NPC is rampaging, its' attention should be focused already on whoever is at the top of their "hate list"... not "free damage" on players who are engaged in melee.



    I'd much rather miss alot more often on "uber mobs" than get picked-apart on cheesy "riposte" damage- but all players can already avoid both of these situations by simply attacking from behind such a MOB.



    You may draw some difference of opinion, even there at SOE's HQ, exactly what constitutes "tanking".. and you're sure to get disagreement among us players.



    Whether a Monk is tanking or not, should have no bearing whatsoever on whether an NPC is capable of riposting an attack. If Monks want to avoid ENRAGE and Riposte damage, they should attack from the back of the creature like everybody else.



    This is THE situation where IF it were put to a vote, whether to implement this new code, or simply repeal the mitigation nerf, I guarantee the vote would overwelmingly be "Repeal the AC Nerf."



    That is the simplest solution to the puzzle of dealing more "damage from any angle"... when you think about it, also, the one that makes the most role playing sense (mitigate same as other Leather Classes), and uses the least amount of resources of the servers (special mitigation tables go "buh-bye", no special "no-riposte" code imnplemented).









    "When the NPC would have riposted, the monk will instead attack it. The result is that the monk would do about the same damage from the front as from the back and, as long as he wasn't tanking, wouldn't take any riposte damage. Any thoughts on this one? "



    NPC's should keep riposting as they are. No change needed.



    It would tie up extra server resources, might unbalance some encouters with rampage-npc's (like Rhag's which already have been given Endurance-draining spells i believe), and grants free-damage to all Monks without any RvR whatsoever.



    Our (Monks) rewards for being an ass-kicking class should be measured, not "free."



    By that, I mean that we (players) should play smarter, rather than to have SOE dumb-down any NPC's or encounters.



    If Melee Classes are given AA's and gear to pursue which allow them to "StrikeThrough" more often, then this one aspect of melee combat can be resolved, and in proportion to the players' efforts to obtain such skills and high-level gear.







    Thanks for reading, Keep the Dialogue coming!



    /bow








    <div style="text-align:center"></div>


    <div style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:small;"> Grandmaster Zkar </span></div>
    <div style="text-align:center"> <Lords of Corruption> Tholuxe Paells </div>
    <div style="text-align:center">Scales Reign</div>
    <div style="text-align:center"><span style="color:yellow;font-family:courier;font-size:small;"><span style="text-decoration:underline">FREN Reverse the Monk AC NERF</span></span></div></p>

  35. #115
    Druid in disguise Newbie Monk
    Join Date
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    3

    Default Re: ...

    /looks up at Frenzeed's post above



    I've /feedback'd negative things about the way I function as a monk, I figured I'd like to /feedback something positive publicly where I know the people in charge of such things'll read it (and I like that, too).



    I think this a great idea to put in place. It gives us a role that we're supposed to have always had. It's a well defined role, and it's one that no other class (as the classes are right now) can share. I would be happy with it. Give us this and the lull tools, even with longer-than-normal reuse times, and from my perspective monks will be a more three dimensional class. A few other new skills/abilities wouldn't hurt, of course <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">



    Thanks.



    Kinestha

    65 Monk

    Rodcet Nife




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  36. #116
    Enlightened Grandmaster Wubao's Avatar
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    Default ...

    "followed by certain pieces of cross-class armor (Flayed Barbarian Skin Leggings for example,"



    Flayed Barbarian Skin Leggings are Monk Only.



    A better example would be the Mantle of Fortitude that Shei drops, which is more than just a monk item, but certainly not a warrior/paladin/monk/rogue/beastlord type of item.



    Then again, I think they already have a plan on what items to put END on. He said it'd be as prevalent as mana on hybrid usable items. Which actually kills 2 birds with one stone. Now, all that armor that we thought hybrids were double dipping on ... it's no longer a case of double dipping. AND, it gives us all more endurance.



    Case in point, the LDoN armors.



    -Wubao


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  37. #117
    Guest

    Default Re: Status Update

    I like this idea over straight 100% strikethrough, tbh. Basically this yields up to an 80% possibilty of one more additional attack for every attack made, with 100% riposte strikethrough gauranteed. This is how I interpret it.



    Ok, one of your attacks gets riposted...that initial attack gets cancelled, but is replaced right away with another attack (riposte). Then add in douple riposte (80% max with AA), and you get your extra strike. remember, this is each strike..so in theory a 2hb monk could return 8 strikes should he quad (triple attack + punishing blade) and they all get riposted and double riposte fires each time~. This is under the assumption that the initial attack gets canceled when the mob ripostes.



    This seems like it'd favor 2hb monks more, as it's more damage per riposte, although dual wield monks have 25% more chances per round (5 attacks, triple in main, double in off vs 4 2hb attacks). And i'm fine with that...as currently the best dual wield combo for monks does outdamage the best 2hb for monks. Not sure how well that scales on the lower tiers, I admit.



    It'd be rather neat if this ability ended up giving some viability in choosing 2hb or Dual Wield...consistent damage from any angle (even slightly better from the front) with lower stats vs better damage from the back with better stats.





    And yes, I'm going to take a moment to plug my latest ability idea: an ista cast long range ability that simply aggros the mob. That's it. I'm aware it may invalidate some of the clickies out there, but I feel that's always been a sore spot for monks. Other classes have been able to gain better pulling tools through AAs and spells, we have to rely on rare drops in obscure places to get better tools. I think it's about time to get an ability designed to tag a mob in pulling with instead of having to rely on little nitnacks. I've been fortunate enough to have Shuriken of Eternity so I don't lose stats when swapping ranged...but not many monks will see this type of item <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":">



    Anyway, ideas are looking great, keep it up!


    </p>

  38. #118
    Guest

    Default Re: Status Update

    Thanks, Wu- ya my bad on Barbie Legs... I was thinking they were MNK BST.. but that's usually the 2HB wep's.



    If Kavhok reads any part of my post, hopefully he'll overlook my bad example of cross-class gear, which as we all know is invariably HP/MANA wrt to armor, and even weapons.




    </p>

  39. #119
    Druid in disguise Newbie Monk
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    Default Re: Status Update

    Phantom line: I'll have to check it out before I say anything, I'm willing to give it a fair, honest shot.



    +End: Yay!



    Openings out: THANK YOU, I have lost count of the times I /feedback'd for it to not go in the way it was, or at all.



    No ripostes: I love it, I have loved it since it was posted here.



    Brother Garolann

    Transcendent of Evening Reign

    Druzzil Ro



    Edit: A full repeal of the mitigation nerf would be most welcome as well, I just fail to see the need for it at this point in the game.


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub147.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gar olann>Garolann</A> at: 1/9/04 9:54 pm

  40. #120
    Enlightened Grandmaster Wubao's Avatar
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    Default Re: Status Update

    "And i'm fine with that...as currently the best dual wield combo for monks does outdamage the best 2hb for monks. Not sure how well that scales on the lower tiers, I admit. "



    I'm not. The biggest stigma against dual wielding has recently been that the riposte damage was excessive and fatal.



    Now they finally fix that stigma, and we're right back to 2hand blunts?



    Am I the only one left in all of EQ who would like dual wielding to be equally as viable as a big honking 2hander?



    High damage "home runs" are fun and all, but I'm a kung-fu badass. Like the two bodyguards in Rush Hour, I want the mob saying "Which one of y'all just hit me?"



    :P



    "I've been fortunate enough to have Shuriken of Eternity so I don't lose stats when swapping ranged...but not many monks will see this type of item "



    Losing it to a bard is gonna suck! Big time! I swear.



    <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol">



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