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  1. #1
    Druid in disguise Newbie Monk
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    Default Status Update

    Sorry for not posting earlier. We've been busy with expansion issues since returning to work. We are still working on melee issues, though.



    The Phantom line is back on the merchants on Test and Beta. No changes have been made to it since the last update.



    We are in the process of adding +endurance to existing items. It will be about as prevalent as +mana is for hybrids.



    The opening system as it was on Test will probably not return. The goal was to make combat more interesting and add some reactiveness, but the attention required and randomness of it didn't do much to help with the class balance aspect. We'd rather use skills like the Phantom and Incite line, disciplines, and innate abilities to define and refine the class' role.



    One of the ideas brought up by some players that seemed solid was a way to make monks better at dealing melee damage from any angle. When a monk is fighting from the front, but not tanking, he wouldn't be riposted. When the NPC would have riposted, the monk will instead attack it. The result is that the monk would do about the same damage from the front as from the back and, as long as he wasn't tanking, wouldn't take any riposte damage. Any thoughts on this one?


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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>One of the ideas brought up by some players that seemed solid was a way to make monks better at dealing melee damage from any angle. When a monk is fighting from the front, but not tanking, he wouldn't be riposted. When the NPC would have riposted, the monk will instead attack it. The result is that the monk would do about the same damage from the front as from the back and, as long as he wasn't tanking, wouldn't take any riposte damage. Any thoughts on this one?<hr></blockquote>



    OWNAGE!!



    That would RULE!



    EDIT: Thank goodness the opening system is gone. I'm glad to see you guys are listening to us. I mean, REALLY GLAD. Kudos to the dev team for this kind of treatment.


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    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub147.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ssk ai>Sskai</A>* at: 1/9/04 11:30 am

  3. #3
    Monk Disciple
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    Default Re: Status Update

    Thats a GREAT idea!


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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Status Update

    Of course, this will be brought up at some point, so I'm gonna say it now. . .



    What about our damage mitigation?


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  5. #5
    Ascendant Stone Fist
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    Default Re: Status Update

    Thankyou for posting and keeping us up to date. Also many thanks for listening to the community to what is becomming some great changes, working together is making everyone alot happier.



    Hope you had a merry christmas and have a great new year. I will leave you with this little nugget of an idea.



    >>I have come up with a new idea, that I think we will work pretty well.

    At present you can save endurance by clicking off a disc, say for instance you get a 2 pull in LDoN, you hit Thunderkick and before you know the 2 mobs are dead and you still have 50% of the duration of your disc left, well it makes sense to click it off to save endurance as you are not using it.



    So now though even though you have saved endurance you cannot reuse the disc until the refresh time has elapsed, what if the cancelling of the disc before it is over has a direct impact on the refresh time?

    Initially I thought, what if you cancelled the disc before it was over, why not still have the disc available, but then people would be stopping the disc at 1% everytime and abusing it.

    So what I propose is increments of 10% effect the refresh time of your disc:



    So on a disc that has a refresh time of 10 minutes ->

    Cancel disc at 90% left -> disc refresh time 1 min

    Cancel disc at 80% left -> disc refresh time 2 min

    .

    .

    .

    Cancel disc at 10% left -> disc refresh time 9 mins

    Fully use disc, regular refresh time 10 mins.



    This would solve some of the arguments of people complaining with have two contraints on our discs (refresh/end) now as opposed to only one ( refresh ) before.


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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Status Update

    Yes to that idea.



    Repealing the nerf would rock to.


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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Status Update

    AWSOME!!!! I like it, now I think I can go back to 1h weapon, more stat and HP. woohoo.


    Transcendent Sensei Savager



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  8. #8
    Administrator OMFG I Post Too Much
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    Default Re: Status Update

    yes that idea would be great - its a refinement of what Arlos, delantha myself and others have proposed at one time or another



    i believe i am the one of the first that suggested the "if you are not tanking you do not get riposte" thing, but shrug it's been bandied around alot.


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  9. #9
    Monk Disciple
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    Default Re: Status Update

    W/O being riposted that already helps out ability to take damage. Sure it doesnt help on pulls but for the most part we have all discovered ways to NOT get hit when pulling (at least I know I have since PoP came out <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> )


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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Status Update

    That's actually one of the best ideas I've heard in a while Kavhok. I always hated the opening system for the exact reasons you listed, and absolutely agree that innate skills, such as the riposte-immunity you described, are the right way to go about true balancing.



    Why people are still going on about the big 'ole mitigation nerf just puzzles me though. Monks are NOT tanks. We have no reliable way to hold aggro, so why some people are even remotely interested in mitigation just seems irrelevant.



    Get off the bandwagon and chew on this - improving our damage output capabilities in some significant way would certainly give monks a good niche in the overall scheme of things. Exactly how would improving mititigation give the class anything?



    Heck, I bet half the posters complaining about the big mitigation nerf these days weren't even playing monks when it happened.


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  11. #11
    Monk Disciple
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    Default Re: Status Update

    Reversing the nerf would certainly help on a pulling lvl. And yeah...started in March of 2000...so I remember


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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Status Update

    This could open up into a "power bar" kind of concept.



    To do this, you look at the ratio that is desired for the power to be active, compared to the cool down. Then you give it it's own bar, similar to a mana bar.



    Then, when the power is activated, it eats the powerbar at a rate that will empty it in the time alotted to the power now, and the power bar slowly regens at a rate that will fill it in the cool down.



    With this, you could concievably lose the end cost alltogether, allowing any one 'power' to be active at a time, with the bars regenerating each at their own rate. The End bar at this rate could just be another shared bar that several abilities such as Pacify, jumping, and whatever else comes from that isn't restricted so heavily in its re-use as the more powerful abilities like Ashenhand are.



    Overuse of a power becomes impossible, but the flexiblity inherant in it's use is massively increased.


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  13. #13
    Monk Disciple
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    Default Re: Status Update

    When a monk is fighting from the front, but not tanking, he wouldn't be riposted. When the NPC would have riposted, the monk will instead attack it. The result is that the monk would do about the same damage from the front as from the back and, as long as he wasn't tanking, wouldn't take any riposte damage. Any thoughts on this one?


    What I want to know, is how will the game decide when a monk is or isn't tanking? That's gotta be some seriously insane coding there. If a monk is on the front, and I do fight on the front alot becuase of positioning of mobs/walling/etc.... I want to know how you propose to tell the difference.



    I get hit plenty while not tanking, and yes I do get hit alot more while tanking. Maybe your just going to code it for who's on the top of the agro list.... /shrug.



    Other than my question I'm pretty happy with your announcement.


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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Status Update

    Eh. . .let them worry about the coding, apparently they feel it can be done easily enough <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">


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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Status Update

    I would bet good money that if they nerf was ninja-reversed on the next patch, 99% of monks wouldn't notice at all. Stop making it seem like the big nerf was some class-changing or role-changing event.



    If they decided to say, "oh, ok, let's just reverse the mitigation nerf and be done with the monk class", would you be satisfied? If so, you're just selling yourself short.


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  16. #16
    Apostle Master
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    Default Re: Status Update

    Let's not turn this into a discussion about the mitigation nerf. I simply asked about it, but if you'd like to discuss it, there are at least 42,000 threads on it, or just start up another one imo.


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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Status Update

    You brought it up. I think the mere mention of it has no place here whatsoever. Perhaps I should start a thread on logic instead.


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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Status Update

    The person tanking is the one at the top of the aggro list, so I'd assume that as long as the monk isn't the one with aggro then he gets no riposte..


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  19. #19
    Monk Disciple
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    Default Re: Status Update

    I'm very much interested in how they intend to implement it, as I also spend a GREAT deal of time tanking while 5 boxing. So how pleased I will be with this, really does depend on how well it's implemented.....


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  20. #20
    Guest

    Default Re: Status Update

    Kudos on getting rid of the twitchy opening system. Good to hear that the lulls are still coming as well.



    I like the idea of frontal combat and avoiding ripostes. Would our existing riposte-based AA suddenly become offensive rather than defensive in nature? If that is the intent for monks at this point, then return kick and double riposte could fire when the mob ripostes us while frontally attacking.



    I have to agree, however, with some of the other posters that we truly need to have the mitigation issue addressed, for good or ill. We are the only class to have both an ac bonus and a mitigation penalty at the same time. I don't truly believe than in PoP+ content, the mitigation penalty is needed, but if it must remain, it would at least be nice to change our ac bonus instead of having an invisible penalty that makes our mitigation worse than another leather class with the same ac. Despite the rumors, we have never been excellent tanks. We have been good light tanks and in great gear were ok for experience groups, but we don't have the aggro holding ability of the plate classes, so who really cares?



    Thanks a lot for continuing to post updates and keep up with the melee issues, Kavhok. We appreciate having our concerns heard and especially having feedback listened to and applied to the game.


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  21. #21
    Monk Disciple
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>If they decided to say, "oh, ok, let's just reverse the mitigation nerf and be done with the monk class", would you be satisfied? If so, you're just selling yourself short. <hr></blockquote>



    With the progression of other classes I wouldnt be satisfied with just a mitigation fix. But... the reversing of the nerf may allow us some ability to solo once again...the reason I made my monkey. When I went into KC at 56 and could solo 2 mobs in a row w/o a fungi and using WTS and KD w/o much downtime before the nerf...I felt thats how my class should be played. Now at 65 with 84aas...I get the same result? 2 in a row (light blue now of course mind you) and I have downtime. It was a pretty class changing nerf. Essentially they took away our ability to solo. The game hasnt been the same for me since then.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I would bet good money that if they nerf was ninja-reversed on the next patch, 99% of monks wouldn't notice at all.<hr></blockquote>



    Your right...I may not notice because Im constantly hiding from mobs to not be such a mana sponge. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">



    BTW...lets keep this about this new wonderful possible change!


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  22. #22

    Default Re: Status Update

    It makes me smile to see continued conversation.



    I agree...not being riposted coupled with being able to dodge from behind makes the mitigation nerf meaningless to me. I say YES to this idea. YES, YES, YES.




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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Essentially they took away our ability to solo. The game hasnt been the same for me since then.<hr></blockquote>



    Are you crazy? The man comes here, finally with a good, solid idea about class balance - and you're talking about your soloing ability as a monk?


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  24. #24
    Monk Disciple
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Are you crazy? The man comes here, finally with a good, solid idea about class balance - and you're talking about your soloing ability as a monk? <hr></blockquote>



    Im not asking him to talk about...its over and done with..just making a statement about myself.



    BRING ON THE NO RIPOSTE SYSTEM!


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  25. #25
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    Default Re: Status Update

    The anti riposte being a monk exclusive innate skill would certainly be nice way to start deffining monks again with a mele role other than rogue-light. What you described, would, in fact make monks WANT to be in front of a mob if we would indeed return the attack the mob tries to riposte. It gives us a role unique and seperate from the other mele. (would it work on Enrage I wonder?) The idea has a lot of potential.



    Reversing the mitigation nerf wouldnt be a massive change btw. It would simply be removing a stop-gap measure that took away mitigations effects that monks formerly paid for by having a weight penalty. It would be a very nice finishing touch that the class would greatly appricieate. Many of us hold it as the hearald event where SoE actively started to ignore, persicute, and otherwise seek to diminish the population. Our version of a Scarlett Letter, so to speak.


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  26. #26
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    Default Re: Status Update

    prolly just looks at aggro list and if we top on mobx then skill doesn't work on it.



    btw will we avoid blocks etc from front too, if we going to have similar frontal / rear dps? a plethora of strikethru items might be nice too..



    very happy about this approach rather then the openings, good stuff indeed, would be amusing if this was due to absor's impact on the live team considering how popular he is with monks <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">


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  27. #27
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Why people are still going on about the big 'ole mitigation nerf just puzzles me though. Monks are NOT tanks. We have no reliable way to hold aggro, so why some people are even remotely interested in mitigation just seems irrelevant.<hr></blockquote>



    truth2k, if you really don't have anything nice to say about monk, please keep your mouth shut. Im sure you are happy about your monk, good for you. I am very happy. Why are you bashing other monks who wants to make our class better. We are not asking more, we are just asking to dev for give back what we used to have. If you don't like it, post it some other place, just not here. You are not helping us at all.


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  28. #28
    Guest

    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>You are not helping us at all. <hr></blockquote>



    I'm trying to help you ask for something useful, instead of useless.


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  29. #29
    Guest

    Default Re: Status Update

    Thinking about this a bit more.



    If we simply attack through the mobs riposte, we are still better at the back of a mob, and are still rogue light.



    If we riposte a mobs riposte automatically, suddenly return kick and double riposte AA's have meaning. (currently we have them but we cant use them since in most cases we cant tank) Would that, however, be enough DPS that we would do more from the front than the back of a mob?






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  30. #30
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    Default Re: Status Update

    I like the idea.



    Got a question.



    What about Rampage? I avoid being rampage like the plague. But if for some reason a monk has Rampage agro would they then get Riposted?



    While we are the primary receipiant of this benefit, think about how much benefit the healers will get with this.


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  31. #31
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    Default Re: Status Update

    truth2k, let me clue you in to something. Some monks would like the option to TRY to solo or duo when we can't get a group for whatever reason. And I've been playing my monk since 1999, so I DO remember the nerf and what it was like before. I remember when the most commonly asked question on Q's message board was, "Where can I SOLO at X level?" Now TRY to look at this from something besides your narrow little view of the world. Not every monk is in a big guild with a dozen tanks on every night. Sometimes there's just 6 people in my guild on and we'd like the to be able to do some things without having to exclude someone because we have to pick up a non-guildie tank. The mitigation nerf had a MEASUREABLE NEGATIVE effect on the average monk.



    And btw, Kavhok, thanks for letting us know what's going on and the no-riposte idea sounds good for getting monks back in front of the mob.



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  32. #32
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    Default Re: Status Update

    I love this idea.


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  33. #33
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: Status Update

    No openings?



    /em begins to hyperventilate...<blockquote>Quote:<hr>as long as he wasn't tanking, wouldn't take any riposte damage<hr></blockquote>OMFG /em SPAZGASM /twitch...


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  34. #34
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I'm trying to help you ask for something useful, instead of useless. <hr></blockquote>



    Who gave you an authority to judge what is useless and what is useful? Your thoughtless bashing comment was total useless to me. YOU ARE NOT HELPING ANYONE. If you think our defense if fine, keep it to yourself. You don't have to come out and judging other people!


    Transcendent Sensei Savager



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  35. #35
    Ex-Druid Monk-in-Training
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    Default Re: Status Update

    /em regains consciousness



    Very well put, Savager <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">



    /em returns to /drooling happily


    Xaynn Bakkura

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  36. #36
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    Default Re: Status Update

    Kavhok:



    THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE DIALOG.






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  37. #37
    SkyKungfu
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    Default Re: Status Update

    Wow Kavhok, amazing. The most amazing point is that you guys really seems to listen to you customer base and comunicate with us. Sad enough taht something like that hase become amazing <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">



    Anyway, great move and I am more than glad. If this continues I get worried how I can keep up my bad picture taht I got from SOE over the past 15 months. By the way, when we are at it, please remove the mitigation nerf.



    Other than that, keep it going <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">



    Sky



    PS: WOOT no opening crap !


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  38. #38
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    Default Re: Status Update

    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Who gave you an authority to judge what is useless and what is useful? Your thoughtless bashing comment was total useless to me. YOU ARE NOT HELPING ANYONE.<hr></blockquote>



    If you think "help" is defined as nodding your head in agreement with the crowd, like a mindless drone, then yes, I absolutely intend not to help.



    <blockquote>Quote:<hr>If you think our defense if fine, keep it to yourself. You don't have to come out and judging other people! <hr></blockquote>



    I must have missed the part where I have to agree with the vocal majority in order to post here. You'll have to give me a hand and show me where that's written.



    As for you solo-happy people, try to think about how hard your average exp-mob hits for today. Now think about how hard they hit for before PoP. If you've seen GoD beta, you'd know it's no different there either. The game has evolved, and even if they doubled our current mitigation, monks still wouldn't be able to "solo" in any speed or fashion you'd actually want to do.


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  39. #39
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    Default Re: Status Update

    Kavhok:



    THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE UPDATE AND THE DIALOG.



    Its nice to feel like we matter. I think I speak for everyone on this point.



    I am happy to see Phantom going in, I hope we are pullers of choice again.



    I am delighted to hear that need skill/discs are going in and that +END items are going in as well.



    I hope to be playing EQ till 2010, ROCK ON, SOE.



    Respectfully,



    Valdor

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  40. #40
    Guest

    Default Re: Status Update

    First off, thank you for posting. It's good to see the communcation line to be open.



    I'm not sure if I like it or not. At first it seemed pretty solid. But I'd like to take some situations where this may fail and maybe make this a bit clearer.



    With our mitigation the way it is, why would we ever want to fight from the front? If the fact that the damage we do from the rear will be the same, what is the reward for fighting from the front? Espeically when, in many situations, mobs are cornered. It's hard enough to fit a warrior in the corner, much less 3 or so monks. Since no real reward for fighting from the front, I think I'll stick to fighting from the rear most of the time. When a mob is "cenetered" or whatever... monks and warriors that aren't tanking are trying to position it to keep it centered. They aren't really concerned with keeping themselves in a certain spot. We really want to keep the mob away from the casters so they don't get hit with the AE and such. That would be our first concern. So fighting from the front in raid situations, I see little use. In exp groups.. maybe it would be something of value. But again.. with no reward for fighting there.. shrug.. what is the difference?



    I'm honestly not sure this is an upgrade per se. It may help in very limited situations, but I can't see monks positioning themselves in a certain spot unless there is some proven increase in DPS. If you take a rogue for instance, they will fight from the rear because their DPS increases 10 fold. But if the DPS from the front is the same as from the rear, most folks will stick to the rear due to what I mentioned above.



    On a side note, I do appreciate you folks TRYING to look into the monk issues and are now saying we DO have issues. It is greatly appreciated. But thinking through on how this would translate into raids or exp groups.. I just don't see it I guess.


    </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub147.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=mea ladar>Mealadar</A> at: 1/9/04 12:24 pm

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