View Full Version : Discuss recent announcement(nerfs) in this thread please. :)
cerbius
10-08-2002, 09:22 PM
eqlive.station.sony.com/c...p?id=52118 (http://eqlive.station.sony.com/community/articles.jsp?id=52118)
EDIT: Changed topic to keep people from posting new threads.
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/usoygen.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Soygen</A>* http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/anim_1.gif at: 10/8/02 8:09:28 pm
Tzuten Tsunami
10-08-2002, 09:24 PM
You just beat me...
here is Monk realted items.
* Monk Defense. Finally, the issue of defensive ability needs to be addressed with respect to Monks. Monks in EverQuest were originally intended to be a class with excellent offensive potential, both with and without equipment. This ability came at the expense of having only passable defensive abilities, partially in the form of an extremely small, restrictive selection of equipment from which to choose.
This, of course, caused its own series of problems of how to adequately reward the person behind the character. It did not take long for universally equippable items (ALL/ALL items) to be considered by and large as "Monk Loot," as far back as before the launch of Kunark.
Over time, Monks' defensive abilities had been tuned up to correct a perceived weakness. This, taken in combination with a few years of universally equippable, low-weight, high powered items entering the game, slowly transformed Monks into what is arguably the strongest defensive class in the game. Monks get hit less than any other class, and due to the tuning over time, no longer take appreciably more damage when they do get hit.
This imbalance between the classes does need to be addressed in order for the Plate-wearing classes in the game to have their proper relative power. The Plate-wearing classes in the game take a serious penalty to their offensive abilities in order to defend as well as they can, and we cannot fix this problem solely by inflating their defensive abilities to compensate for this. Again, that type of change would harm EverQuest as a whole much more than altering the one class. Likewise, we have no desire to retroactively alter all of the equipment in the game that is contributing to this problem.
Monk defense will be altered somewhat. It is no secret that in EverQuest, a character's Armor Class does not compare equally across different classes. (A Wizard with 1000 AC defends differently than a Warrior with 1000AC, for example.) It's not the most optimal system, for sure, but it is the one that many people have had much time to get used to. As such, Monk defense will be altered such that they may continue wearing the same equipment, however, they will get a decreased benefit to their overall ability to take damage.
Again, we have no desire to make monks unable to take any type of punishment -- far from it. What we are primarily striving for is maintaining the defensive order of the Plate classes being able to take the most punishment, followed by the Chain classes and Monks. The latter being technically a Leather wearing class who will continue to make up the difference by being able to avoid more blows than the rest.
This shit STINKS!!!
no more manaburn and mod rods 3.0 no drop?
Tzuten of the Rathe
</p>
Here's the monk snippet:
* Monk Defense. Finally, the issue of defensive ability needs to be addressed with respect to Monks. Monks in EverQuest were originally intended to be a class with excellent offensive potential, both with and without equipment. This ability came at the expense of having only passable defensive abilities, partially in the form of an extremely small, restrictive selection of equipment from which to choose.
This, of course, caused its own series of problems of how to adequately reward the person behind the character. It did not take long for universally equippable items (ALL/ALL items) to be considered by and large as "Monk Loot," as far back as before the launch of Kunark.
Over time, Monks' defensive abilities had been tuned up to correct a perceived weakness. This, taken in combination with a few years of universally equippable, low-weight, high powered items entering the game, slowly transformed Monks into what is arguably the strongest defensive class in the game. Monks get hit less than any other class, and due to the tuning over time, no longer take appreciably more damage when they do get hit.
This imbalance between the classes does need to be addressed in order for the Plate-wearing classes in the game to have their proper relative power. The Plate-wearing classes in the game take a serious penalty to their offensive abilities in order to defend as well as they can, and we cannot fix this problem solely by inflating their defensive abilities to compensate for this. Again, that type of change would harm EverQuest as a whole much more than altering the one class. Likewise, we have no desire to retroactively alter all of the equipment in the game that is contributing to this problem.
Monk defense will be altered somewhat. It is no secret that in EverQuest, a character's Armor Class does not compare equally across different classes. (A Wizard with 1000 AC defends differently than a Warrior with 1000AC, for example.) It's not the most optimal system, for sure, but it is the one that many people have had much time to get used to. As such, Monk defense will be altered such that they may continue wearing the same equipment, however, they will get a decreased benefit to their overall ability to take damage.
Again, we have no desire to make monks unable to take any type of punishment -- far from it. What we are primarily striving for is maintaining the defensive order of the Plate classes being able to take the most punishment, followed by the Chain classes and Monks. The latter being technically a Leather wearing class who will continue to make up the difference by being able to avoid more blows than the rest.
In closing, we would like to again apologize for the amount of time that we've allowed these abilites to remain in their current state. With Planes of Power on the horizon, in order to make encounters that most people would consider "fun," these abilities and class attributes need to be brought back into line as sane upgrades and logical progressions, as opposed to their current manifestations.
We appreciate the many well thought-out letters that have been sent in on these topics and more. As always, we thank you for playing EverQuest and look forward to seeing you soon in the Planes of Power.
- The EverQuest Development Team
Wizzie Manaburn nerf, Mages Mod Rod nerf, Monk defense nerf. Damn the nrerf bat is flying around like crazy!
</p>
haha.
September 4th patch?. That was badddd...
THIS IS THE DEVIL. Imagine how many people will quit about this. It's total BS. Fucking whining pallies... ohh got what you wanted now?. Monks will suck at tanking and you and your 30 DPS can now outtank us all!##!#
</p>
polkgaiimahn
10-08-2002, 09:44 PM
OMFG after farming 37k for a fungi...they...
GGGRRRAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH NOT POSSIBLE!!!
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Cybsled
10-08-2002, 09:44 PM
FUCK FUROR AND ALL THE WHINING BITCH WARRIORS
They BETTER increase our avoidance to make up for this shit.
Warriors SHOULD NOT GET lightning reflexes in pop, nor should ANY plate class.
Manaburn nerf is stupid also. GG whining newbies. Now you can not kill Gorenaire just like you didnt kill her when manaburn was normal.
CH makes sense kinda.
Mage rod is pathetically stupid change. They just reamed their usefulness by a boatload on raids.
</p>
Actulaly congradulate Furor and his bitching he finaly got monks nerfed Hes been bitching to vi for ever cause he was jelious of his monks.
On the side note what they probly doing is lowering are ac migation cap down to the level of the other plate leather wearing class AKA druids
I bet if you buy all the levels of the new migation ability in pop you might be back to where you are now.
beter save up thos 30 points
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Woah....
this is going to have MASSIVE shockwaves...
but good or bad?
Sionistic Triplefist
58 Monk
Veeshan
</p>
Wait a sec so lets see. monks now nerfed while rogues get more offensive skills due to poison procs? something stinks to me...
</p>
I just don't get it the nerf that they are doing to monks really only applies to monk that are in the top tier guilds of their server with really nice loot. I have pretty crappy gear for my lvl but yes i can avoid hits better than most but when i get hit i get hit like a wizard does and drop just a little slower than they do.
I was actually really happy with our class as it is now and enjoying it again. Now typical VI style they go and break things. If it isn't broke fix it till it is. (VI's new motto)
Now that anger is out there i can say it might not be too bad but when have you ever seen Verant change something and have it come out right. I haven't seen them make a change to any class without A) screwing it up or B) breaking something else in the class.
Arkenine
57 monk
PS good thing some new good games are coming out.
</p>
OMG THEY BETTER NERF WARRIORS HP THEY HAVE TOO MUCH!
hmm what else!
i know, nerf the mana regen people get!
wtg verant, their stupidity ceases to amaze me.
its amazing how you pick a class, because you know what they are capable of, level it to 60 just to have verant say: LOL @ YOU! im nerfing you rofl.
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ukazdun.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Kazdun (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=319555>My) at: 10/8/02 5:53:09 pm
If they lower their defense and AC then they BETTER boost their attack rate up a little... I am so sick of everything changing. I am almost ready to quit this game.......
VERANT IF IT ISN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT
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I suppose no one can tell us what this will mean in practical terms?
Would this be classified as a little 'tweak' that is barely noticeable or is this going to make soloing impossible and grouping a full time necessity. I like to do both and to have this taken away would be horrid.
Anyway, maybe this will not make that much of a difference in real terms?
Clueless and Confused
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showLocalUserPublicProfile?lo gin=jinny>Jinny</A> at: 10/8/02 5:54:45 pm
Well I did look and I am upset.
As has been previously discussed, the plate class defensive imballence has largely been caused by the creation of high end mobs with ridiculously high ATK, to the extent that plate class AC mitigation is largely irrelevant, bringing Monk avoidance capability to the fore. I'm sure there could have been more elegant solutions to the problem that they have created.
It will be interesting at how serious this will be, after the inevitable tweaking and re-tweaking of the changes. Could end up being relatively minor, right through to a major sabotage of the Monk class, particularly re our ability to effectively solo and pull high end mobs.
We'll see...
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</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/uguythebastard.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Guythebastard</A> at: 10/8/02 6:30:50 pm
Basically they screwed monks as any sort of tank in exp groups and now they can't solo because they'll take too much damage and have shit hp.
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Damudge Deeler
10-08-2002, 09:56 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Taking that into account, and given that those with the most hit points in EverQuest have yet to hit the full 10,000 HP cap of this spell <hr></blockquote>
Is this saying that it is possible to have 10,000 HPs??? WOW'
Also, what total BS about us monks. Come on, that is part of being a monk. I guess we should stop all of the "Monks can tank better or as good as a warrior" posts. Keep our crap a secret from now on. DAMNIT
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verant is slowly screwing over every class so when they release eQ2 people will be like eq1 sux lets move to eq2.
And we ALL know that monks tank highend mobs! omg they had to nerf their defense!
a warrior STILL tanks better than me anyday. Because of his higher hp and their ac is close to mine, if not higher.
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ukazdun.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Kazdun (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=319555>My) at: 10/8/02 5:57:28 pm
They'd better be prepared to revamp every current high end encounter in the game just because they want "reasonble" planes of power encounters or they'd better be prepared to say "haha just kidding guys".
AC is meaningless for anyone who would be at the level top tier guilds are as it is anyway, and that has nothing to do with what made furor upset.
I feel really sorry for mages having one of their only useful raid abilities utterly obliterated.
</p>
manaburn nerf, good
Ch nerf, not to bad still looks managable
mod rod nerf, i know one than more mage that hates the fact they are only a mana vendor in a raid so good for mages.
monk nerf, not to sure will have to wait to see what happens.
Oh yah /finger uberguild_01 hahahahahahahahaha
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</p>
They just make EQ even more of a timesink then it already is, some of us don't have time to shout 2 hours for a group.. (This goes to monks)
I am sure the EQ population is going to take a massive hit. This game is going down the drain, give it another 1-2 years and its gone.
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"What we are primarily striving for is maintaining the defensive order of the Plate classes being able to take the most punishment, followed by the Chain classes and Monks"
It seems strange to me that they would want a chain wearing priest to be defensively superior to a pure melee class. Or for that matter why would they want another offensive class with massive situational damage and spells (including some snazzy atk buffs, fast casting nukes and situationaly useful regens and heals) or the best melee damage dealers in the game to be defensively superior while retaining the advantages of being a hybrid / being a more damaging pure melee.
</p>
cerbius
10-08-2002, 10:02 PM
I guess this goes live on the 16th?
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</p>
Wow they are making it easy on me. I have thought about quitting the game for awhile. This is probably the best thing VI has done for me. Hehe thats 4 accounts per month I don't have to pay for.
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This is total bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This will completely destroy our ability to solo. What we need to do is all start bitching, moaning, and crying like the GD warriors and mabey just mabey we can get something done!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jesus Christ name one monk that has "tanked" one uber mob ie.. aow, ntov dragons, or any big mobs on the moon. We can't casue we have shit for hp thats what those dang "meat shields" are for. I know lets all make pet classes and VI will only make it better for us. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/mad.gif ALT=">:">
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well first verant nerfs pvp, so i cant pvp vs casters cause they just snare me.. I haven't gone out to pvp in a looong time since that, its just not worth the risk anymore.
Now they are going to nerf my defense, which not only in pvp will make me get mangled vs a melee class now, but also when i try to solo to exp..
guess this is where i cancel my account? It just isnt worth it anymore, and it pisses me off that i grinded and got a char to lvl 60 just to be nerfed over and over.
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=319555>My bl00bie gear</a></p>
Dear god....this is the most massive combination of nerfs at any single time ever. wow...
-I don't play everquest anymore-
</p>
hmm..time to move my gear to my shammy i guess.
Gregan (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=393067)</p>
*sigh*
I'm seriously considering rerolling now, if I can't solo my way to 60 I'm never going to get there anyway.
</p>
Welcome to the world of the ranger. You really thought VI would allow monks to outtank *and* outdamage every other class in toe-to-toe combat forever?
And another point - mages *hate* summoning rods. Seriously. They'd much prefer nuking and having their pets do damage, you know, the reason they made the class. Having encounters rebalanced to compensate for the lack of infinite mana means no more dreary 40-60 minute Luclin fights. This is a bad thing??
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Schezar
10-08-2002, 10:08 PM
If they don't do the same for chain classes and take lightning reflexes out of POP aaxp I'm going to be pretty annoyed. Monks should always have best avoidance in the game, bar none. If they can't tune worth crap they should retune mob atk, not shove a stick up the ass of the monk class.
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Why always the nerf?
Why not up warrior's avoidance or plate casters higher than monks, but putting us at less than a chain wearer??
I agree they better up our avoidance/increase our damage.
Not everone is a powergamer with the best no drop stuff in the game.
I notice the dev's mentioned 'the end game', where 70% of the EQ players will most likely never see. If they keep catering to the high end player, they will eventually lose their largest base of players. but then again maybe thats what they are trying to accomplish.
Just making it easier for us regular players to die more.
</p>
Furor you whiney pole smoking social miscreant I hope you are happy with what your 1.5 years has finally resulted in .. hope the stomach pumping you took from all of the loads you swallowed was worth it. Do me a favor .. try and pick a new hobby so that you don't define your Real life worth from an online game .. it would benefit everyone else that plays the game .. trust me. Oh and /rude VI logic .. never improvements only swings from the nerf bat ...
Fryarfej
BC
Tarew Marr
Yep that guild that could not kill Seru in the arx .. oh wait nm we did with ease /blow me
</p>
I just thought of something else. Imagine the implications this is going to have on end game pulling monks. Monks are going to get absolutely RAPED on pulls with lower defense now. Looks like SKs will be pulling now.
-I don't play everquest anymore-
</p>
you cant really blame furor for this, because the monks at the level of the game at which fires of heaven play arent going to be hurting for AC even if they nerf defense down to what rangers have...
</p>
Moltenfists
10-08-2002, 10:11 PM
HA HA
ahhhh
HAHA
thats classic, the reasons for me to return and play in PoP are begining to dwindle and this makes it look more and more sad.
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I could put a lot of curse words here to express how I really feel, but I'm just going to have to say that this sucks.
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rogues and rangers with am3 outdmg monks.
btw, makes me glad i didnt pre-order pop <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ukazdun.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Kazdun (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=319555>My) at: 10/8/02 6:12:45 pm
Brother Aranon
10-08-2002, 10:12 PM
I have been sick of people claiming that Sony was trying to push EQ2 by tossing EQ on the backside.
The reason was because of all they talk over learning to deal with the things that had happened to EQ and starting over from scratch in EQ2. I believe it was Abashi who said that Varent never ever intended for CH to make encounters what they had become. Feign splitting was a mistake as were camps in general....But they were going to work with that in EQ, and try to solve those problems in EQ2.
Apparently not. They just destroyed the way the high-end game generally works. No more easily done CH rotations.....
This is incredible. I never thought I would see this.
BA
</p>
Kurrlee
10-08-2002, 10:12 PM
I'll be taking the wait and see approach (and exping as much as I can between now and the 16th). If the nerf my ability to solo, they'll be getting one less $13 per month.
That post about how they are nerfing the CS to push people to EQ2, now this annoucement....Not seeing black helicopters...but they sure are dark.
Kurrlee
Shackle Of Tynnonium</p>
Hehe brownbelt i can name every single monk of my guild.
What they are doing is most likely lowering the ac cap of monks to bring it down to par with what they should have.High avoidance and low mitigation.
.I think they actually know what they are doing unlike the precedent team of EQ that created all this crap.I believe some of them are monks )
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</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ukinu.showPublicProfile?language=EN>kinu</A> at: 10/8/02 6:14:57 pm
Cybsled
10-08-2002, 10:13 PM
We need to start pushing for the removal of the AA ability "lightning reflexes" in PoP for plate classes.
They want to nerf us on a roleplay aspect...sure.
Last I checked, a warrior wearing hundreds of pounds of armor should not be able to avoid hits very well at all.
Either increase monk avoidance or TONE DOWN plate class avoidance.
</p>
It's becoming more and more clear that the people who are left on the design team are more interested in money than what's best for everquest
</p>
Emil Sinclair
10-08-2002, 10:17 PM
if you wear 100 pounds of armor, haste items/spells should have a % penalty. you should also move slower than >24 pound monks.
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BotS (http://www.drow.org/news.shtml)
</p>
This is total bullshit, i really hope this is a joke. And i just finally got my monk to 60 too *sigh*. Please don't make me give up my monk like i did my druid.
</p>
Well, all I can really do is laugh; sorry guys. But hey, I quit about four months ago, so this is funny to me.
I feel like commenting though. I know when I left, most monks were still complaining that our damage wasn't quite high enough. It was improved, but as a monk who didn't have the best offensive equipment, and in all honesty had no desire whatsoever to pull, I felt nearly useless. Probably the main reason I quit. At the very least, I felt I gave as much (damage) as I took; perhaps a little more, probably no less. This is definately a nerf, and for Verant to apoligize even before it goes live is hysterical; that goes for all these nerfs.
Verant was always, and apparantly still is, quick to say they can't improve something because it will alter the game too drastically, but that only appears to be the case when it's something people actually want. They were obviously a little short-sighted while developing PoP, otherwise I don't think these changes would be necessary.
I find this quote funny:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In our last letter, we stated that our goal for large scale battles in EverQuest was never one of endurance contests. We'd prefer to actively return to the type of battles that everyone feels are more fun - Battles that require tactics and skill, as opposed to attendance and endurance.<hr></blockquote>Aren't these the same people who severly punished a whole guild for using tactics to beat the 4th Warder (I think it was the 4th anyway) the first time? I mean, let's face it, when Luclin came out the changes they made practically screamed, "Now you MUST wear down the opponent!" I just love the double talk.
Anywho, when I read stuff like this anymore I just get a smile on my face. It's nice to see things really haven't chaged.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=226119>Karlyle Tranquillus</a>
55th Master
Follower of Quellious
Quellious Server</p>
they'd better give us a FUCK of a damage increase to make up for this. Why have a monk if you can have a rogue or ranger?
Monks had better be on par or above rogues/rangers after this shit.
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bout time these changes went in. just hope it's not too late.
</p>
Azith Evertoon
10-08-2002, 10:21 PM
Sigh... its hard to be singled out like this but i have to be honest and say that it might be for the best. Simply put the uberguilds have been causing the mobs in any new expansion to get harder and harder to keep anything from becoming trivial.
In one way they are right. There is only one way to do this, and thats to take a big step back in power and abilities. As much as i hate the idea of monks getting singled out like this, simply put. We shouldnt be tanking uber mobs, we shouldnt be even getting hit outside of solo stuff. Im holding my anger until we see just how hard we get the shaft vs solo ability. Otherwise i think its an important step to making the game less of an endurance contest.
<a target="new" href = "http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=27884">Azith's Equipment</a>
There's no greater joy than helping people.
Other than wiping out the entire raid "by accident".
- Fraxas </p>
Uglukson
10-08-2002, 10:22 PM
Wizzies are crying pretty hard to get the extra 12 AA points they spent on mental clarity back as well (pre-req for MB).
They really have given themselves a massive job retuning 2 expansions worth of encounters. Anyone want to bet on it being done before the nerf bat is swung?
If they institute a soft AC cap for monks, as long as it's not as low as druid levels it may not be so bad for the average monk. If it is though, bye-bye soloing, and bye-bye a lot of players.
</p>
basilcy Vernet is catering to the zerg guilds
i can see eventi tuning encounters for 150 people all damage discing at once ow well.
Thand Ros 60 monk (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=83211)
Thanduh Ros 41 warrior (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=251901)</p>
I guess the thing that confuses me most is I don't out-tank other people in my groups. I out-damage most sure, but once I start getting beat on I'm in trouble. Most would say that my gear is pretty average for my level, which I think pretty much means it's not very good. So this change is gonna make me suck more? Can't wait... <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">
[EDIT]
After reading the eqlive page again... it does sound pretty crazy. Is there any way for the site to get hacked, you think? Could be a prank? Cause honestly, that letter is just ludicrous. I don't know if that's even possible or likely, but I'm just putting it out there
Kamichikara Kenkyonahito (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=67639)
Wandering Disciple of the Lost Circle</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ukamichikarakenkyonahito.showPublicProfile?languag e=EN>KamichikaraKenkyonahito</A> at: 10/8/02 6:38:17 pm
W.. ... WTF..
This is.. WTF?! W_T_F
I swear to Jesus Q. Christ, I'm going to beat the living hell out of every little bastardized wanna-be tank in this game for contracting Druiditis and whining like little babies because "monks tank better".
The CLERIC in our group with be able to take less damage per hit than me? ... My brain hurts..
</p>
it'd be fine...if they hadn't been structuring us as a DEFENSIVE class since Luclin came out.
With the release of this change we NEED some serious melee updates, else there is absolutely NO reason to have a monk over a rogue or ranger in a group. We NEED some kind of H2H mastery. We NEED some kind of increased damage. We NEED double Flying Kicks for 2x damage from behind.
If we aren't upgraded on offensively for this hideous nerf, then we are fucked as a class.
<bold> Peace,
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=110093>Dandamanlar the Templar </a>
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=110083>Sarthis the Grandmaster </a>
</bold><center><img src = "http://www.videogameaddicts.net/0001nugif.gif"><img src = "http://www.starmen.net/mother2/images/game/nesspeace.png"><img src = "http://www.videogameaddicts.net/0001nugif.gif">
<a href=http://bloodmusic.diaryland.com> --Nothing is lost. Nothing is forgotten. It was in the blood, the flesh, and now it is forever. --</a> </center></p>
The people who think this is a good thing are probably the same people who think these changes will be delayed so they can fix the difficulty of high end encounters, and the same people who think planes of power will be extensively tested before it's realeased.
History has a way of teaching us not to practice wishful thinking.
EDIT: now that I think about it, this will probably make monks more likely to tank raid encounters than before. AC is basically meaningless, and 7500 capped complete heal means that having 8.5k hp tanks are pointless
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ufuzzythorpe.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Fuzzythorpe</A> at: 10/8/02 6:32:25 pm
Malthorn
10-08-2002, 10:33 PM
Kamichikara I know how you feel.
My account is paid for the next 2 months. If this kills our soloing then I think it's time to move on to something else when the 2 months are up. I think I will delay buying POP to see what happens.
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=144471>Malthorn</a>
Erollisi Marr
Bazaar mule
Trader Grognak - The Red Ogre
</p>
There's 2 kinds of people playing EQ.
1 is the kind that wants to play on god mode. They made iksar monks with fungis and have the best tanking and best DPS in the game.
The other kind is people who can see what's fucked up with this game.
This change needed to happen, and if you can't see it, then you fall in category 1.
Veteran Haass Wolvesbane (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=48986)
Venerable Cagna Soulshaker (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=71943)
</p>
This is stupid, what they are doing is penalising the 6 or 8 monks on servers that worked long and hard to get the armor they have then they alter the rules negating all our choices with no compensation.
As for monks replacing tanks in groups, haven't people been paying attention? A CLERIC can replace tanks in groups now just put 2 clerics in a group so one can heal the other and that is sufficient tanking power for anyplace you xp.
Rangers have obscene damage.
Rogues have just become the defacto best tank in the game and the highest damage melee all wrapped into one.
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21023 </p>
Monk soloing just got a lot harder. I guess Verant got cocky when they saw how much AC2 sucked, and no longer had to worry about losing customers to a new game.
Krazy
</p>
Sciurus
10-08-2002, 10:42 PM
i just remembered that SWG was being made by the same people that made this game ... oh man and i wanted to play it SOOO bad. SO anyone got a good alternative?
If this is as f'ed up as i think it will be ... i think i will retire ... its a bummer so many people are, my american dollar value on player auctions just went WAY down. No one sell till i do please <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">
Yeah a second though about all those people who think mages dont like summoning rods .. maybe they dont, but they are practically essential to any type of high end raid .. they just made it a whole bunch harder now. I think most mages would like it better if the one thing they did well was not nerfed to hell ... kind of like us monks eh?
Tannah (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=15480)
57 Unconquered (http://www.monkly-business.com>Monk</A>)
Drinal
Post counts dont matter! (post count +1 yay!!!!)
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/usciurus.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Sciurus</A> at: 10/8/02 6:43:59 pm
ok thats it, im recreating as a gnome paladin
</p>
I have to agree, we better be the best melee DPS in the game. Rogues better take a backseat to our DPS. Hell, they will tank better than us now anyway. WTF
Denth
60 Grandmaster
</p>
I dunno, should a little piece of leather really protect you as much as an inch of steel?
To test the above out find a nice little fleece vest and have someone hit you with a baseballbat. Then find about an inch of sheetmetal and repeat. Tell me which one hurts more.
Avodance could probably be raised a hair, but you guys should get hit harder then a war/sk/pally.
</p>
So the damage WILL be someone realistic..
But I don't see how a guy decked out in 100lbs of platemail should be able to duck and weave like a boxer still.
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Wow they are making it easy on me. I have thought about quitting the game for awhile. This is probably the best thing VI has done for me. Hehe thats 4 accounts per month I don't have to pay for. <hr></blockquote>
im in the exact same boat same amount of accounts too
Frenzy Style
60 Drunken Grand Samurai Ninja Master
<a href=http://home.attbi.com/~eqmaximus/brell/ target=_blank> Brell Serilis
</a>
<A>
<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=496" target="_blank">http://www.emotioneric.com/waferbaby_fusion.jpg
My Stuff </a></p>
that's not the point, the problem is this does not fix the problem where the problem exists
Lowering defense skill is meaningless to someone with 1500 ac buffed anyway
The only people this is going to hurt will be lower level monks and those who prefer to solo, and that is definately not good for the future of everquest
</p>
Thank you for creating an account to tell us your point of view bonaparte or whatever your name is.
Thing is, if I was a black belt, you wouldnt HAVE THE TIME TO SWING YOUR BAT BEFORE I RIPPED YOUR HEAD off.
</p>
Was 85% sure I was leaving my guild.
95% sure im just quitting EQ. They are rather cryptic about how this is going to manifest itself.. reffering to all all gear and making allusions to monk specific gear not having such penalties.
Eitehr way, it completely eradicates how I have chosen to equip cuthul as a hard monk.
Fuck you VI.
Im most likely gone.
Cuthul Paindancer
Master of the Path of Pain(Rodcet Nife)
Warlords of Wrath
Cuthul's Moderately Ok Gear (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=329174)
Culthul's Little Girl (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=182753)
My destiny is now complete, for I now weild Tranquility and Fear in my hands.</p>
Basically, we (monks) signed up for the class to be pure melee high damage dealers that could take a few hits and still deal the damage. Unlike a rogue, we were meant to be -able- to tank, and still deal our damage, but they got the bonus of dmg output. Rangers were origionally meant to be the hybrid of a druid and warrior, able to cast some druidic buff/heals (sucky I know)/nukes/dots/etc and still deal decent melee dmg. Warriors of course tanked. Now, the .00001% of monks on each server who can out tank a warrior (which I still dont believe since even that 7.5% better or whatever block chance over parry isnt going to negate 2-3k more hp and defensive disc) are "over powered" (wont argue it) so Verant is nerfing all monks... Now, instead of being the class with slightly lower damage output than rogues, and no spells (like rangers get) with a better ability to tank, we'll be rogues w/o the dmg output. Assuming they will be putting us on a lower "ac table" (for lack of a better term), we will be unable to pull higher end encounters without loads of deaths (people may shout that ac doesnt mean shit, but if we're on the AC table of a druid/shaman, I assure you you'll notice the sudden extra red spam of max dmg hits). Fine tuning the higher end monks is fine... maybe lower monk AC soft cap so the best of the best of the best cant tank -quite- so well, but leave those of us without 1400 ac and 5k hp alone.
</p>
I just sent this into the Dev Corner...if anyone agrees with me I ask you to do the same.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I'll be the first to admit that monks are possibly a bit overpowered when it comes to being defensive. I think it'd absurd that I can usually outtank most warriors of my own level.
However, we have been structured since Kunark as a defensive class rather than offensive. Essentially we're pullers/warriors with less HP and a bit more damage.
Out of 9 discs that we recieve, only 3 of them are offensive in nature. Two of them are jokes and the other is barely on par with the discs of other classes. The rest are purely defenisve in nature.
In Velious they released items with stupidly high AC that went to monks. We got kinda shafted in the weapons though until there was a revamp and more were added. That's cool, I made a monk to be offensive in nature. The result of this shortsight on Verant's part to keep making us more and more defenisve in nature (at the expense of our offensive skills) is that there were now monks with 1700ac easily.
When Luclin was released and the AAXP came out, there was a bunch of defensive skills that were released for monks in CLASS. Most of the ARCH skills were geared for defense, and monks went defensive, since that is what we considered our new roll in the game to be.
I personally look at the CLASS AAXP list for monks and see one skill (ambidex) that is offensive. The rest (aside from Dragon Punch, which sacrfices offense for utility) are defensive in nature. Double Riposite? Thanks Verant! A skill that didn't even work until 2 months ago, is now completely useless since we'll never be tanking again. Return kick? Still broken....it's been a year you guys, fix it -- or replace it with something worth while. Rapid Feign is now actually worth something for those of us who don't constantly raid, which I guess is a good thing...since I'll be using it to keep aggro on my CLERIC, since he'll have better defensive skills than Sarthis now.
The moral of the story is that VI had better FIX the monk class in terms of how it should be, rather than just nerf the heck out of what it has become. <hr></blockquote>
<bold> Peace,
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=110093>Dandamanlar the Templar </a>
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=110083>Sarthis the Grandmaster </a>
</bold><center><img src = "http://www.videogameaddicts.net/0001nugif.gif"><img src = "http://www.starmen.net/mother2/images/game/nesspeace.png"><img src = "http://www.videogameaddicts.net/0001nugif.gif">
<a href=http://bloodmusic.diaryland.com> --Nothing is lost. Nothing is forgotten. It was in the blood, the flesh, and now it is forever. --</a> </center></p>
WTF changing a monks ac does nothing for the raid game, it only affects our solo ability. VI gives new powers to casters so they are now quad kiting lvl 55+, there is even a cleric in our guild that can solo lvl 55 mobs. Monks are limited to low blue as it is so now we get ac to only do light blue. I guess getting within 5 lvls of VI newly balanced solo caster ability is unbalancing. Either that or VI shakes in there boots when the mighty furor talks about class envy.
Well monks now just become rangers that can fd without the skill of archery.
What about pulling. Monks are the primary puller on a raid. When pulling we are tanks for up to multiple mobs and we have no healer when away. Just pull the Crypt Guardian room to figure this one out. The warriors bitch oh no a monk is tanking, well let them tank without heals and then we will see how they bitch about ac.
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/uralikmt.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Ralik MT</A> at: 10/8/02 6:58:53 pm
I don't get all the monks are an offensive class crap. If I wanted to play an offensive class I'd be a rogue. Simple fact is I don't attack most mobs on most raids I do. I pull all day that's what I do, so I need hp and ac, not high attack. Hell I can't remember the last time I asked for haste. We're pullers not rogues, someone needs to give VI a clue.
http://merileafcatwalker.homestead.com/files/dend_sig.jpg (http://merileafcatwalker.homestead.com/files/dend_lq.jpg)
Dendory (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=259582) - 60 Monk, Kane Bayle
</p>
Yeah I got pissed when I read this too, but took a breather and realized that monks really shouldn't be out-tanking warriors. But for heaven's sake give us something in return, in the offensive category!! Better class aa skills than the holy crap ones we have now! Acrobatics?!?! Are you serious!?!
I somewhat agree with the ac, but give us better offense skills now because of it.
<p align=center>Cromulent Mcgarnacle
60 Grandmaster Monk
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=144144>Inspect My Dingleberries!!</a>
<a href=http://www.dbguild.net>Enchanted Dragons</a></p></p>
Wow....
Played a druid to 52 until I discovered the inherent torture each one much endure. Meditation. 18 mins to go from oom to fm at 52 with 230 wis.
Manual was born.
Just as I discovered the need for a fungi and could almost afford it, inc fungi drop nerf. Didn't get it till I hit 52.
Now, chain classes gonna tank better than me? Time to roll a shaman.
Or will they be next? Uber slows, Torpor, killer buffs... All over powering. (not really, I lub shaman:-)) Is the end near?
Verant is killing EQ themselves. They put something in game without considering the ramifications of doing so. Then, players find creative ways of dealing with and adapting to Verant's latest addition. If Verant doesn't approve, inc nerf. Anyone remember the Manastone? Hulgrash beads? Egg Shaped Pumice? J-Boots in Najena? The mask from Lguk?
Nerfed all the fun items, now time to nerf the classes....
/target Verant/Sony
/rude
Fuck you Verant/Sony...
"If the women don't find ya handsome, they should at least find ya handy" - Red Green </p>
I wonder how many old timers (pre karnak) remember VI publicly stating monks where supposed to be the King of melee damage (even higher then rogues back in 1999) now with this nerf to the AC and rangers/rogues out damaging many a monk I wonder whats left after VI decideds to nerf FD pulling in the next patch after this one (yes its coming).
Jasthiss Ebonscale (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=91548)
60th Monk of Invictus Maneo (http://www.invictusmaneo.org/)</p>
Cant say ya diddnt see this coming.
Monks generally do 2nd best damage in the game, best pullers in the game, top tank for exp groups, and semi good tank for thing above. You think everyone made a monk twink because they were balanced?
</p>
Rillen
10-08-2002, 10:53 PM
"I dunno, should a little piece of leather really protect you as much as an inch of steel?"
This is a good point, and one I hear often from my non-monkly friends. And, unfortunately, one I cannot argue. It seems that AC and damage avoidance were confused somewhat when making/tweaking the monk class. What they probably would like (though may not have seen it, or couldn't/don't want to implement) is for the natural AC of monks to be less, but the damage avoidance to be more. Maybe not to balance out completely, but at least compensated some.
It would also be interesting if weight were factored in on dodge, parry, attack delay, etc.. Maybe not on a class by class basis, but strickly on a sliding scale for weight. That way there is still a bonus for staying light. Would likely improve our damage somewhat versus other classes if delay was penalized for weight, but do so without actually changing the way a class is structured. Would just make people think more about the equipment they purchased..
Rillen (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=335960)
49th Level Iksar Monk -- The Nameless
</p>
Shando
10-08-2002, 10:53 PM
Leather armor is hardly a fleece vest. It was and is thick pieces of hide shaped to fit a body. Yes, it does not protect as well as steel armor, which was never an inch thick. That would be too heavy to be practical. It would probably be the equivalent to 16 or 18 gauge in size. If you are going to use real world examples, please be accurate.
Shando Thunderpunch
</p>
I think it's obvious they'll be putting in a real soft cap on AC (as opposed the current soft cap that is actually mob dependent). The question is where will that soft cap be... If it's in the 1200-1400 range, that will make monks unfit to tank a lot of the top end raid mobs, but not effect our grouping/solo'ability a lot. It would effect a lot of the very top end guilds that have monks with 1500+ AC, but not much else. If the cap is in the 1000-1100 range, monks just became a very crappy class.
Want to show VI you're upset? Cancel your account. I just did. It doesn't mean you can't play or that you will actually leave, it just stops your billing cycle. So if this pisses you off, but not quite enough to actually quit, cancel your account anyway. If enough people do that in a short period of time, it WILL turn some heads and they will have to react.
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<font size = "1">"I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" </font></p>
this just nerfs our Exp mostly. guess what this a group game. we are like the #1 melee most people twink now cuz of doing rogue damage, Tank better then un-disc wars and get be best pullers and hardly die while we at it. we can pretty much do it all but end stuff with Defence..
currently damage avoidance is > damage mig. think it's silly how us monks a leather class can tank better better then warrior, Sk, pallys and the otherr plate melees out there, but dont think nerfing our current tanking ability is the anwser. would improving plate wears tanking ablitys (considering they dont do rogue damage like us), really be to unbalancing?
they should just nerf or get rid defence and make plate wearers<mainly wars, sk and pallys> tank alot better but guess thats not what they want
</p>
Sciurus
10-08-2002, 10:55 PM
i dont know what the hell they are thinking with this post ... it may of made some people happy but it is plain tto see from just this single post on just this single board that the majority of people dont like this nerf. Isnt their main objective to MAKE MONEY? they are going to lose so many people with this POS patch ... are they stupid? what the hell......
Tannah (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=15480)
57 Unconquered (http://www.monkly-business.com>Monk</A>)
Drinal
Post counts dont matter! (post count +1 yay!!!!)
</p>
Let me ask you all a simple question.
I'm easily one of the 6 best equipped monks on my server, I do not tank mobs on raids, Not one monk I know of in any guild on my server does.
So answer me this, How many of you from high end guilds TANK for your guild on raids in TOV, ST, VT, SSRA or anywhere at all?
All this monks replacing warriors bs comes only from Furor's whine about warriors, I have never seen a monk take a warrior or paladin or shadowknights role as the main tank on a high end raid.
Have any of you seen that happen?
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21023 </p>
Cybsled
10-08-2002, 10:57 PM
Monks should have always been about inate defense via skills or avoidance.
Double riposte fits with that. Its a shame riposte doesnt go off more often.
As was pointed out, if monks are moved to a different defensive table, AC only plays a SMALL ROLE in what we're getting hit for. I know druids with as much AC as monks in my guild and as much HP. Whenever an uber mob turns on them, THEY ARE SMEARED.
This is our future. They need to seriously improve our avoidance. Yes its good now...its good for rogues and rangers too.
Monks have to have a LARGE avoidance boost if we're going to be forever forced to take damage worse then a rogue or ranger, to speak nothing of the others.
All the signs are aligning. PoP is going to suck hard for monks in terms of their power vs. other classes. You would have thought VI learned their lesson. WE DONT NEED A REPEAT OF EARLY VELIOUS.
</p>
I'm a player type that Sony/Verant loves.
I have my account, but I play only sporadically. I'm a constant source of income, but usually don't add any traffic to the servers.
I've been playing for a while now, about a year and a half, two years, and am just 52 on my main...my monk. If i log in after this "re-balancing" and can't solo(which was tough enough for me anyway), I am gone.
This is pointless. I have NEVER been able to out-tank a warrior. I can pull taunt from one, but I feign it right back on him if I want to live a long time.
Oh well...guess this just gives me an excuse not to filter money to their company.
-Lethios Ouranos
Luclin
</p>
"Rogues have just become the defacto best tank in the game and the highest damage melee all wrapped into one.
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant"
You seem to forget the majority of a rogue's damage comes from the backside of the mob. So how can they tank and still be behind the mob? O.o
Edit: Where as monks can/could tank better and out damage a rogue from the front.
Dqua D`Eugor (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=47536&resize=true)
60 Assassin
Povar
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/udivisionfreebirth.showPublicProfile?language=EN>DIVISION FreeBirth</A> at: 10/8/02 7:03:03 pm
So does this mean I can go overweight now without getting hit any harder than I would anyway? =p
</p>
And spells.
Btw Sarthis very well written. Sure resumes all of it, verant buffing monks defensive powers rather than offensive since vellious in term of disciplines, items and AA skills but now they nerf our defensive skills.
Doesnt leave us with much Vs what other classes can do.
</p>
Gonna be devils advocate here.
Firstly, i hate the nerf as much as anyone. Due to my play times, atleast 95% of my exp ive gathered solo (59 now, 60 before patch hopefully).
However;
Monks ARE overpowered. Its brought up all the time, and it's not just class envy, it's fact. Ive been expecting some form of nerf for a while now, and we'll just have to wait and see how big a change it is.
Feel free to cry nerf, but dont act surprised.
</p>
bwuceofxev
10-08-2002, 11:00 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Monks in EverQuest were originally intended to be a class with excellent offensive potential, both with and without equipment.<hr></blockquote>
whens the last time a naked monk did good damage? or you saw one running around exping <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p">
<table width="100" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
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<td>
<center>
<font face="verdana" size="2">Sensei Bwuce (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=10803)</font>
<font face="Verdana" size="1">
Xev (http://www.xevserver.com) </font></font>
</center>
</td>
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</table></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ubwuceofxev.showPublicProfile?language=EN>bwuceofxev</A> at: 10/8/02 7:08:29 pm
I forget nothing about how rogues do damage, I said you just became the best tanks and the best melee damagers.
I didn't say you could do both at the same time, I am saying that you shouldn't have both options.
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21023 </p>
Cybsled
10-08-2002, 11:01 PM
Our weight AC bonus is avoidance, not mitigation.
</p>
Long time coming, this change. And a very welcome at that. It's a nice irony that snide, smug monks will now have their turn at the bottom of the heap. And what's more, I'll be interesting to see whether or not the Monk community adopts the behavior it has decried for the last 2 years in other classes. I see the hypocricy already in this thread. Whining? Monks? Nooooooo!
</p>
Is it possible this is a hoax from verant? A silly joke of some kind?
Think about it. Why anger your customer base just before the release of a new Expansion?
Are they so silly to make sweeping changes based on the tiny percentage of Monks who tank as well as they say?
Just a thought.
*flees possible flames*
</p>
4 accounts cancelled.
<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=46329">http://www.thepalecourt.com/signaturevara.jpg
60 Iksar Grandmaster<a> </a><a>Celestial Fist - Whistling Fist of Thule </a></p>
Well i was goin to go prepay PoP but with this Bs comming into light forget it You slack ass fags at VI have had 2 years to fix the problems you made.
I for one would like all my AA returned so i can spend it properly now I mean come one a fix like this on a last expansion of a game gimme a freaking break Mebbe after the Hundreads of people who have built your company quit you will relize what Idiots you are lol.
Wanna fix it without pissing people off Build a friken time machine and do so dont alter my class and play style into something i dont want
I played a Monk for a Reason, You clowns are like a Really bad GM in a pen and paper RPG, you know the kind that just make shit up as they go !
Keep on trucking your doin fine Im sure the 10 percent of the Eq population this makes happy will more than offset the 90 percent who it doesnt !
Peace out.
</p>
I've been reading these boards now for some time. The information in them has been great and helped me make a monk.
I don't understand why a group of generally knowledgible people are objecting to these changes. I've read here over and over that Monks are great tanks and we all know Monks generate the best melee dps (non-situationally). I remember reading that FD was given to monks because it was a way for them to lose aggro because they were never designed to take hits.
My main, until recently, was a Paladin and I can see where the monks who have roughly equal equipment and levels to me out tank me. Until now Monks out damaged me (which they should) but they out tanked me too and had inherently better pulling abilities. Add to that a "get out of jail free card" if things got hairy and can FD from a bad pull or a train.
I suggest everyone just see's how this really affects the game before making snap judgements.
Warasen Durendel
Crusader of the Imperial Guardians
Thorkin
Templar of the Imperial Guardians</p>
GD, is they any way to the "posts: 1" board raiders out of here?
</p>
sorry to say, but all these changes were required.
The CH is not that big of a deal. Like it ever hit for full anyway.
Mod Rods change will probably cheered from the mage the most. I personally hated being assigned to heal the mod rod brigade at raids ( i am a 60 shm)
about time the nerfed MB. That ability was just starting to get abused and the way it is now should still make it viable. /cry /whine i dont get to KS guilds anymre boohoohoo
Now for the monks. DONT KID YOURSELVES. Monks were never supposed to have the AC they get today. You take a penalty for your offensive abilities, and the way it was, there was no penalty. However, i will wait to see how they impliment it. Monks should not be like wizards now, but they shouldnt be able to take the abuse they can now. The logic is sound but again, lets see how its implimeted before overreacting.
Xekiu Bludpool
troll oracle
ps i would like to point out that this is one of the few trips to the nerf bat plate that both necros AND shaman ducked!! for cheer!
</p>
If verant is going to pretend logic has any role in this then....
Max mitigation on chain classes, rogue and ranger need to be nerfed.
Avoidance on plate classes needs to be reduced drastically, why exactly does a ogre warrior with 200 pounds of plate armor avoid damage like a ranger with 100 pounds of chain or a monk with 8 pounds of leather?
And it's no small thing that they just negated 3 years of work on equipment, armor choices and aa choices in such a way as to render our choices pointless and give us no compensation in return, the wizards at least get their 5aa back on manaburn, How exactly do I get a refund on my loot choices that put my ac now way beyond the game cap.
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21023 </p>
oh my....
-insert random plug saying
"see shit like this is why I quit in the first place"
had to see this for myself, couldnt beleive it was true =)
</p>
bwuceofxev
10-08-2002, 11:13 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> and had inherently better pulling abilities. Add to that a "get out of jail free card" if things got hairy and can FD from a bad pull or a train. <hr></blockquote>
that sounds like an SK too <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p">
they can pull better then a pal and also have FD.
makes ya wonder, will pulling be affected by the change.
</p>
get ready to tank like a necro folks!
</p>
Schezar
10-08-2002, 11:14 PM
The more I think about this the angrier I get. I'm going to cancel my account the next time I get billed. They'll have 3 months to fix this mess or lose another customer.
Monks have always been good at tanking with high end gear. I'm talking since day 1. To do an about face after 3.5 years is utterly unacceptable. Monks were made a leather class *because our avoidance balanced us with warriors* in terms of damage taken. If plate class mitigation is broken get off your fucking asses and fix it. Do not pull bullshit out of the air and try to claim it's all good.
Here's an Idea(tm) that took me all of 30 seconds to come up with, and it's simpler and more elegant than anything VI's team of monkeys could think up after god knows how long:
Give plate class bps an effect that negates x% of damage taken per hit if you're too lazy to change mob atk levels. You could even give it a shiny label like focuses get. You can make varying levels of equipment in this case, too. That AHR bp can deflect 10% of damage taken, where your Vindi BP only deflects 3%.
See me at: Schezarine's Sexay Stuff
See my BST: Schezanna's Savage Suite
---
I *am* the Chinpokomon master!</p>
About fucking time nuff said.
Dire Charm has its limits, and now so does manaburn;
a bunch of wizzies killing large mobs for profit never struck me as something I liked.
Monks finally get placed where they should be defensively so that plate classes can be where they should be. Hoo Raa!
Mages DESERVE to be more than just a rod battery and now it will be so.
Amen to these changes.
Master Zistrix Logistics
Phantasmist
Ayonae Ro
Exiled alliance
</p>
Think about all the monks who went to 1200-1300 AC then went full HP because they were around the cap on AC? How is VI going to reimburse them now if they find themselves way lower on defensive?
http://merileafcatwalker.homestead.com/files/dend_sig.jpg (http://merileafcatwalker.homestead.com/files/dend_lq.jpg)
Dendory (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=259582) - 60 Monk, Kane Bayle
</p>
VI better up our avoidance skills or something cuz this one of the worst nerfs I've ever seen.
</p>
Moved here to not anger mods.
On the changes coming for Monks defense:
I am not opposed to this change, nor am I supporting it. As many people have complained/whined/pointed out, monks tank maybe a little better then they should. Assuming this is not a severe change, and if it is, that Verant will continue to tune it, I believe this won't be that bad, certainly not the end of the game as many seem to think it will be. While this is not what I would have done, it is at least something.
I think the main cause of the monk 'imbalance' is that Verant got lazy, and just started clicking the all/all button instead of thinking out their items a bit more. Look at the monk quest armors from velious, decent stats on many, but total ass as far as ac goes, much like monks were probably intended to be. The massive ac and hp items that they can now wear, though, can more then negated the mitigation weakness monks were supposed to have.
What I would have done, first off, is raise warriors defense. Even if monks get nerfed, hybrids still tank as good as warriors without defensive, and do as much damage, and have spells. Second, say the Highest hp bonus on an item in PoP is 250, twice that of current ones. The highest casters would see, with the exception of a very few powerful, rare items, would be +150. Priests would have maybe +175-200. Monks would have probably 200, hybrids 225, and warriors 250(These numbers are just examples).
This change implies to me that they will simply continue to be lazy, and slap +max on everything, letting only the classes skills seperate them in a largely item based game is a bad idea.
Manaburn changes:
I totally agree with this change, it is the best way to balance manaburn that I am aware of without totally ruining or changing it.
Mod Rod changes:
I disagree with this. While I know that mages are bored with being rod bitches, I believe the change that is going in with this, namely reducing long duration mobs Hps, would have solved this issue. The fact that they are doing both may indicate that they are including long duration or mana intensive fights in PoP, but didn't want an easy way of getting through it.
I hope I said at least something useful out of all this. These are just my opinions, of course, and you are free to think I'm an idiot.
<TABLE BORDER="3" CELLSPACING="1" CELLPADDING="1">
<TR>
<TD ALIGN="center">Amzen </td>
<TD ALIGN="center"> Falaiys Mystweave</td>
<TD ALIGN="center">Pallida Mors</td>
<TD ALIGN="center"> Sarem</td>
</tr>
<TR>
<TD ALIGN="center"> 37 Monk </td>
<TD ALIGN="center">60 Enchanter</td>
<TD ALIGN="center">46 Paladin</td>
<TD ALIGN="center"> 27 Ranger</td>
</tr>
<TR>
<TD ALIGN="center">Eldrion </td>
<TD ALIGN="center">Xathas </td>
<TD ALIGN="center">Xayne </td>
<TD ALIGN="center">Colter </td>
</tr>
<TR>
<TD ALIGN="center">18 Rogue </td>
<TD ALIGN="center">12 Bard </td>
<TD ALIGN="center">20 Necromancer </td>
<TD ALIGN="center">15 Wizard </td>
</tr>
</table>
Mock not my twinks, for one day they may help you!
Saryrn</p>
Sk's have
Divine Aura for immunity to damage on pulls.
Snare to split things.
2 seperate fd spells allowing them to feign more often than monks without having to invest 18 aa points in rapid feign.
Now i'm just waiting for verant to do something stupid like give sk's FD as a skill so they can pull using DA then FD while still da for totally risk free pulling.
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21023 </p>
Whelp... I read it a while ago and fired off a feedback email in the (likely pointless) hope that someone, somewhere with a clue would read it. Figured I'd post it so folks could flame someone besides VI if they felt like it.
Basically I'm willing to wait and see... BUT if they fuck my only enjoyed melee class, I'm done. I'm done with EQ and any other friggin product they put out in the future right along with anything else Sony makes. That's really the only "power" we as customers have anyway; our $'s.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
I wanted to take a few moments and just comment on this topic.
EQ has been waning for some time for me. I've played since Beta 3, religiously with multiple accounts. Not that it "should" matter, but I want to make sure you understand where I am coming from.
60 cleric, end game.
58 bard, end game.
60 human monk, end game.
57 chanter, mid game.
56 Iksar monk, "just for fun".
56 druid, utility.
Several 50 wizards and many, many others.
I daresay I've a bit of experience with your product. I understand fully addressing CH and the Mod Rods. Good ideas(late but valid)... HOWEVER, if you significantly alter the defensive abilities of my monks... I frankly want a new character with those levels and AA's moved over with all the appropriately leveled skills. I'm willing to eat the no-drop equipment loss.
If the changes to the monks are significant enough to impact a monk being a tank for a group, you will have done a huge disservice to all of us that have played the class faithfully and planned to continue to enjoy it.
Whether or not it was a mistake is your call, not the players. That much I understand. I hope you understand the level of betrayal of trust I will experience. A large majority of those playing monks have chosen them due to what they offer as an all around melee character. As you can see by my other choices, I am ONLY interested in this melee character.
Thank you for any consideration you give my words. I know that threats are pretty meaningless, but IF those defensive changes are dramatic and impact my characters ability to tank for an xp group significantly or solo the same mobs I can now, I will drop this product and any other product of the future. Not just VI products, anything Sony involves itself with. I realize I'm just one customer, but I hope that my opinion still matters s<hr></blockquote>
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=40638>Swysh's Magelo Profile</a></p>
First id like to thanks all the retarded pallies, warriors and sk's who took the time to create an account just to remind us we are suppose to give a damn what you think. And rest assured we don't.
Now pay a price for all our offensive skills?
Do I have to remind all you morons that verant in adding disciplines/AA's and the general items usable by monks have focused MAINLY on defensive. At the end of the kunark era monks were indeed under rogues and over warriors/hybrids in damage but since then they added items and AA's to promote class advancements... And just look at them! Almost every class in game could significantly raise their damage with the new AA's. Monks got BARELY ANY damage increase with their AA's despite being labeled 1000 freaking times by verant an offensive class get almost no damage increases by AA's.
What especially pisses me about those changes is NOT the fact they wanna reduce monk mitigation you dimwits, it's the fact that for a year and a half verant have increased monks viability as a defense class and THEN, NOW, ALL OF A DAMN SUDDEN they "realize"
"Well, uuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh *scratch behind* Monk is not a defensive class! Let's nurf them!"
Good job morons! And exactly what are we now since all you been giving us are freaking defensive improvements you dolts!?
</p>
Fatal
10-08-2002, 11:20 PM
Hear me out.
The change needed to happen. I agree. And I see what they are trying to do, and to be honest, I prefer the EQ they are trying to get to.
Monk's shouldn't be able to take a hit like anyone wearing plate. Monk's should be able to avoid being hit better than anyone. bar none. Dodge, duck, riposte, etc. We should hit like a truck and break like china when we get hit a solid hit. We also should have the equivalant of 'assassinate' or 'death shot'. It makes no sense that rogues and rangers can kill in a single blow to an appropiately levelled mob, but we can't. Up my offense, not a lot. But make me ahead of rangers and behind rogues again. I can live with that.
Complete heal nerf, fine. Whatever. I have 6 epic clerics and 12 epic druids in my guild. Healing rotations will change. So what.
No more unlimited mana from mages mod rods. Ok. It's not needed anyway if the fights aren;t going to last an hour.
Manaburn? I like the fix. In fact, I suggested exactly this fix a few months ago. Before I made my wiz. :/
Rangers are now better tanks, do more damage, and are casters? Their casting skills are second rate, like a hybrid should have. Now tone down their melee skills.
If they take away a monks defense and give us nothing, they have ruined the class. There is nothing left for them. SK's become the new pullers.
http://amichi.not.net/~polyneices/Ramsus.gif
Ramsus (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=13934) </p>
So now Rogues do more damage and tank better... hmm.
I see many account cancelations comming.
I played a Ranger from the start of EQ until Kunark, then they totally screwed him up (yes after a year they eventually fixed Rangers, but it was a LONG time to rebalance).
Now they're going to ranger Monks... not going to wait a year this time, as I've got know way of knowing the next class I pick wont have the same thing happen to them.
I'll quite and sit it out cold turkey until the next game comes along.
Monks have never ever ever sat behind chain classes in defensive potential, and back in the day Monks were the most damaging.
This is bullshit.
<hr />
<div>
Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=266873), Iksar Monk of Xev.
</div>
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Dubious member of Hawkestone (http://pub72.ezboard.com/bhawkestone).
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I long to know its feelings.
It demurs. Lunch, then."
</div></p>
Bye everyone. This is bullshit.
<center>Taehoon (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=490) • Iksar Grandmaster (http://www.monkly-business.com)
Xegony (http://forums.gamerealm.com/cgi-bin/postlist.pl?Cat=75,76,77,71,72&Board=generalxegony) • Illuminati Sancti (http://illuminati-sancti.org/)</center></p>
Ill make my comment on this. I dont like it but someon else said how i think better then i could exprese.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Basically, we (monks) signed up for the class to be pure melee high damage dealers that could take a few hits and still deal the damage. Unlike a rogue, we were meant to be -able- to tank, and still deal our damage, but they got the bonus of dmg output. Rangers were origionally meant to be the hybrid of a druid and warrior, able to cast some druidic buff/heals (sucky I know)/nukes/dots/etc and still deal decent melee dmg. Warriors of course tanked. Now, the .00001% of monks on each server who can out tank a warrior (which I still dont believe since even that 7.5% better or whatever block chance over parry isnt going to negate 2-3k more hp and defensive disc) are "over powered" (wont argue it) so Verant is nerfing all monks... Now, instead of being the class with slightly lower damage output than rogues, and no spells (like rangers get) with a better ability to tank, we'll be rogues w/o the dmg output. Assuming they will be putting us on a lower "ac table" (for lack of a better term), we will be unable to pull higher end encounters without loads of deaths (people may shout that ac doesnt mean shit, but if we're on the AC table of a druid/shaman, I assure you you'll notice the sudden extra red spam of max dmg hits). Fine tuning the higher end monks is fine... maybe lower monk AC soft cap so the best of the best of the best cant tank -quite- so well, but leave those of us without 1400 ac and 5k hp alone. <hr></blockquote>
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Sensei "Stuff Slayer" Grip
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Grip's Profile</A>
</p>
Was playing less and less. Enjoying the game less and less. Took a DAoC break. (laugh).
Time to cancel two accounts.
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<blockquote>Quote:<hr> So now Rogues do more damage and tank better... hmm.<hr></blockquote>
Tanking rogue != damage
</p>
I understand that leather should not tank like plate, but should a monk who has honed his body through hard work and exercise, rock hard and sturdy, take the same damage when getting hit as a chubby hairy footed druid in the same tunic? Avoidance or no. If you go the RP route then monks still should take less damage than any other leather class and id argue less than most chain as well.
You are right, SKs just became the premier puller. Grats VI. If I take hits like a druid you just lost my 4 accounts.
Shinzu
</p>
Wubao
10-08-2002, 11:25 PM
Well, I'd rather have this on the thread that sticks around ...
Man ... see what all the complaining ad nauseum has done?
The nerf bat swingeth.
Anyways, from the way it reads, they're going to gimp our defensive abilities. Which means we're gonna get beaten on like Rangers, I'd assume.
There goes monk soloability relatively out the window. Then again, I haven't solo'd much lately.
The manaburn nerf is a joke in that it STILL hasn't addressed the PvP portion of the ability.
CH nerf seems kind of odd in that Druids and Shamans just got CH type spell.
The mage nerf affects a lot of encounters.
Which brings me to my REAL PROBLEM with this change ...
The DEV TEAM ITSELF.
This patch will be bugged to hell. I mean seriously bugged to hell. The list of high end mobs they're going to have to tinker with is pretty long, wouldn't you think?
Changing CH, monk defense, mod rods, all that, totally changes things from Velious too, wouldn't it?
And of course with all the coding that they're going to be working on, I foresee Bard Songs being broken beyond belief. But that's not a very gutsy prediction there is it?
Anywho, it seems they're being VERY reactive here and not very PRO-active in regards to the many issues that people have been complaining about.
And that's sad.
Ah well, cheers to even MORE DYNAMIC content in a couple weeks. I wonder how plausible PoP is really going to be with crappy AC, smaller mana pools and less efficient CHs. Who knows, maybe it'll work out.
-Wu
</p>
Monks should break like china?
Go back and look at the game pre-kunark if that is the standard and we weren't made of glass then as we were the most powerful offensive class and a fair tank.
Why should we have less offensive power on a raid than a rogue AND no ability to take as much damage as one.
Do not tell me it's because verant sees our role as pullers, because they don't even like the concept of pulling mobs.
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21023 </p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "I dunno, should a little piece of leather really protect you as much as an inch of steel?"<hr></blockquote>
It may be nitpicking, but I honestly dont know anyone that could walk, much less fight while wearing a suit of armor made of one inch thick steel. You have to really consider something like this. Most armor is less than a quarter inch thick. Probably closer to 1/6th of an inch. And its still damn heavy.
I used to play a game called Darkon. It was a live action medieval style fighting game. We had warriors, thieves, clerics, etc... I played a Cleric, and a thief. At the time I was in high school. Best shape I have ever been in. I lifted weights every other day, and ran or biked on the days that I didnt lift.
Now, that being said.. I could don a suit of 1/8th inch thick (minimum requirement) steel plate armor. I couldnt afford the legs or boots, so I only had the breastplate, vambraces and bracers. It weighed about 75 pounds. I also had a light shield and a flail (it was a foam weapon, but the shield was wood with padding around it). all told I was carrying about 100 pounds of extra stuff on me.
It was reasonably difficult to walk uphill, much less run for any long period of time. I could take extra hits because of this armor, but when I played my thief, I was hit WAY less often. I could dodge attacks from other people because i could move.
Thats the difference between a monk and a warrior according to VI. Monks need to have a HUGE avoidance boost because of this nerf. We should get parry, and have our avoidance armor class doubled.
-X
<u>-= EverQuest =-</u>
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Moltenfists
10-08-2002, 11:27 PM
ha ha there is liek 12 threads started over this topic all locked and directed here, thats funny.
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WOOT it works!</center></p>
I wish alll you fucking piece of shit jackasses whoe just joined the forum to put your 2 cents in for no apparent reason but to be assholes, would just get the fuck out of this forum and never come back again.
<IMG SRC=http://members.cox.net/a.dyl/webmonk.gif align=left>A chinese man with short feet is bound to come across a Jewish yard sale</p>
This the druid's grove?
You all act like from now on you will tank like casters. You wont, they are changing it yea, wait until you see what they do before you start bitching and quitting because your so mad that you arent super tank damage dealing solo machines.
</p>
I only wish I could cancel my account which I prepaid for a year. I wish I could cancel the 10 copies of planes of power I have orderd but unfortunately they aren't all for me.
My main job is pulling. I was already fed up of how much I die doing this and now its going to be worse. I can't take that so fuck em. How do I get my money back?
Maybe the monks doing Vex Thal have gear comparable to warriors but the ToV HoT gear I am in is a joke compared to warrior gear.
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Goldmund TargaRi
10-08-2002, 11:29 PM
<img src=http://home.neb.rr.com/goldmund/eqcancel.jpg>
Just cancelled two accounts. VI has 30 days to win me back.
And as pissed off as I am about the monk nerf (what, I don't die enough pulling as it is?) I'm WAY more upset about the mod rod nerf. Mod rod 2 is the tool that let small guilds like mine compete in the high end game. Good luck taking down Arch Lich with 35 people now without modding.
I still can't quite comprehend this... I'm stunned VI could be so clueless.
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One more time for the people unable to read.
As it sits rogues can
EITHER
Backstab and be the highest damage melee class in the game
OR
Tank and be the best tank in the game.
No one said both at the same time other than some rogue from safehouse reading this in fear rogues will be the next to be nerfed and someone who clearly skimmed the thread.
When you try to correct someone it really does help to have read the material so you don't look silly.
What we are saying is if it was wrong for 1 class, monks to supposedly hold that position, why is it ok for rogues to be the premier damage dealers or tanks depending on the role they chose.
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21023 </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ubelthos.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Belthos</A> at: 10/8/02 7:32:47 pm
Fryarr
10-08-2002, 11:31 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> You seem to forget the majority of a rogue's damage comes from the backside of the mob. So how can they tank and still be behind the mob? O.o
Edit: Where as monks can/could tank better and out damage a rogue from the front.
Dqua D`Eugor
60 Assassin
Povar
<hr></blockquote>
i personally know quite a few rouges who tank better than warriors. and with your aa skill to where you can bs from the front ( yes i know it only does like 200 dmg ) you still can put out alot of damage. so you don't have to be behind a mob...
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> They made iksar monks with fungis and have the best tanking and best DPS in the game.
Veteran Haass Wolvesbane
Venerable Cagna Soulshaker
<hr></blockquote>
uhh, yeaaahh... iksar monks with fungi's make the best tanks.... riiiiiigghtt!
as for the rest of you first time posters... go back to trolling your own boards
Brother Fryarr (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=197082)
60 Monk
<img src=http://www.sgtfuzzbubble99.homestead.com/files/Smilies/Sarge/MrT_anim.gif gif></img></p>
THE PROBLEM ISNT THAT MONKS WONT BE ABLE TO TANK, THE PROBLEM IS THEY ARE NOT FIXING ANYTHING THAT IS BROKEN.
Do any of you read threads before posting in them?
Monks do not have any less hp than before.
Ac is pretty much as meaningless at the end of the game anyway.
I know monks that can get 1500 ac with hp intensive gear. No monk I know is going to be dropping hp gear in exchange for ac stuff.
The only people this will hurt are casual players, who prefer to solo.
</p>
Sciurus
10-08-2002, 11:34 PM
thats a crap load of people fuzzy ... a CRAP LOAD
Tannah (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=15480)
57 Unconquered (http://www.monkly-business.com>Monk</A>)
Drinal
Post counts dont matter! (post count +1 yay!!!!)
</p>
Fine if they want me to take full damage on every hit great. but I better be able to aviod 90% of the hits
</p>
Well damn it happens that most of us are CASUAL PLAYERS because not all of us are in a "UBER_GUILD_01"
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Shadiza Silverclaw
10-08-2002, 11:35 PM
These posts are hilarious. "I worked so HARD to twink up my monk, and now this happens!"
Good. Leave. You never cared about being a monk, just power gaming, and you were probably a damn handbag anyway. Go make a nice rogue/ranger/warrior and let us be.
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Still not one person here has said they as a monk are tanking for their guild instead of a warrior or a plate class.
So what exactly is being fixed?
Is there even ONE monk that reads this board whose guild chose use you to replace warriors as main tanks fighting Avatar of War, Emperor of Ssra, Arch Liche, Vex Thal, Dragons in West Tov, Orc pawns?
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21023 </p>
Monks haven't lost their role in the game. Let's all do what we do best: log on and train every SK, Pally, and Warrior you see back to level 1 until you are suspended. :P
(ok ok it's a joke alright? don't actually do this)
<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=46329">http://www.thepalecourt.com/signaturevara.jpg
60 Iksar Grandmaster<a> </a><a>Celestial Fist - Whistling Fist of Thule </a></p>
And I'm agreeing with you.
Don't try and flame someone when you share a similar opinion.
I prefer to solo, I think this change will bring only bad things.
</p>
Frankly, what I continue to not understand is why, if Monks are not supposed to be a defensive class, have they so obviously geared us towards a defensive capacity and if they intend for this to change, do they plan to change some of that gearing, or are they simply going to cut off the nose to spite the face?
</p>
what i find funny is a while back when vi was hit with "hey, isnt a group of mb wizs killing on old world dragon a little overpowered?" vi responded with something to the effect of "well, it is expected that as the game progresses, classes become more powerful and can make what was once a guild raid doable with a single group." now they nerf it and say it was never intended for a single group to take a dragon/whatever out.
Gregan (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=393067)</p>
Vhoghul
10-08-2002, 11:37 PM
Zistrix, lets see if we can put you in our shoes right now.
Say in this patch, They increased the ability of bards mex to have a duration longer than enchanters, instead of being pulsebased. and made it so that Manasong and clarity spells nolonger stack but now get a level 55 manasong much improved over KEI. Shaman have better haste abilities as well.
You now can't Mez as well as bards or recover mana as well, you cann't haste or buff as well as Shaman. Your primary function is to KEI the people that are not grouped with bards. You now have no reason to exist. your class defining funcion is to charm the odd mob and cast illusions. Even the enchant spells can be done by various items dropping in POP (work with me here)
The point is, before this patch, we were one dimentional, but you have your ups. You could pull well, solo better than any other melee, were a distant third for damage output and very close fourth for tanking ability.
Post patch, we probably won't be able to solo at all, pulling will result in many more deaths, will still be a distant third for damage output but will be bumped to a distant 7th or 8th for tanking ability. Rogues and rangers, who are both ahead of us in damage output, will also be ahead of us in damage intake ability. This makes our class useless.
I agree that monk tanking ability was a little overpowered, but this is not the way to handle it. Why whould we now pale in comparison to rogues or rangers in every way shape and form?
<a href="http://eqforge.com/profiles/profile.cfm?ID=4293" target="_blank">
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After reading the resolution for wizards with manaburn, give me back the 13.7 AA i spent on increasing my damage mitigation since its gone now.
But seriously, this doesnt kill the monk class. Just wastes our AA and changes the way we exp
Geaweas (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=12610)
60 Druid
Lalador (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=19238)
60 Monk</p>
Warriors needed upgrades, monks didn't need downgrades. I'm still relegated to sucking except for my 3 minutes of glory. That's just great. I still do the dps of the bard when I'm not tanking, and even worse when I am. What other class has to /disc to be semi useful on a raid? Whatever, they didn't make warriors happy here, and they sure as hell made monks angry.
</p>
Total fucking bull shit.
I play a monk for one reason alone - it is a pure melee class that can solo. This is the biggest bull shit I have seen in 3 years of watching this game progress.
I have never heard of bigger bullshit than them saying monks can tank better than warriors. The problem is in their ac damage mitigation stat Assholes. Not in a monks damage avoidance. It is JUST THAT SIMPLE. You just need to put a +x% increase dmage mitigation on a plate style armor and WHAM> your fucking done, not nerf the 1 class I have found to enjoy in this game.
You lazy pieces of crap, are too fucking lazy to put some thought into the items you create AND YOU ADMIT IT! Why do we have to be punished for your FUCKED UP LAZY ASS work ethic?
Where is the equal level character/item selection screen you fucks.
</p>
sorry to say, but all these changes were required.
The CH is not that big of a deal. Like it ever hit for full anyway.
Mod Rods change will probably cheered from the mage the most. I personally hated being assigned to heal the mod rod brigade at raids ( i am a 60 shm)
about time the nerfed MB. That ability was just starting to get abused and the way it is now should still make it viable. /cry /whine i dont get to KS guilds anymre boohoohoo
Now for the monks. DONT KID YOURSELVES. Monks were never supposed to have the AC they get today. You take a penalty for your offensive abilities, and the way it was, there was no penalty. However, i will wait to see how they impliment it. Monks should not be like wizards now, but they shouldnt be able to take the abuse they can now. The logic is sound but again, lets see how its implimeted before overreacting.
Xekiu Bludpool
troll oracle
ps i would like to point out that this is one of the few trips to the nerf bat plate that both necros AND shaman ducked!! for cheer!
This from a shaman. LOL Shaman are ALOT more overpowered then most classes in the game. To see one saying Yipee to another classes nerf is just someone comming and saying YAY I am more powerful then another class now.
Hell i can solo ALOT better with my Shaman then my monk. I can get groups alot easier. I have VERY little to fear when playing my shaman.
Since Most Monks are barely able to kill blues now this will definately mean they are a dead class.
For those saying this is a "good" thing. Just step back and imagine the world with no monks at all. Lets see just how long it will take for those 1 hours raids to turn into 2-3 hour raid becuase the SK/Necro is always dieing and the monk it sitting with the groups laughing.
<img
src=http://lilyanaeq.homestead.com/files/Signatures/piccolo7.gif>
</p>
Ummmm, Monk Strike anyone? I die pulling enough AS IS! With this penalty, unless they give us hella more hps or raise our avoidance to a respectable level (higher than it is) i say monks just go on strike and refuse to pull mobs. Let the warriors/pally's/SK's that asked for us to be nerfed do it, sicne they wanted to be able to more anyways. Already been stated that we need a damage increase sicne rogues are now ahead of us in damage liek they always have been AND they are classified as a chain class which is one tier higher than monks. Forget it, my attention to EQ's been waining for awhile now, and I believe that this is gonna fully convert me to CS and DAoC. Sad times are ahead for us....
Xazik Apttoevil
Pissed_off_l33zard_01
Bertox
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I forget nothing about how rogues do damage, I said you just became the best tanks and the best melee damagers. I didn't say you could do both at the same time, I am saying that you shouldn't have both options.<hr></blockquote>
Best tank my ass. I get hit like a red headed step-child even in XP groups. Especially in Sebilis. Now I'm only lvl 52, but still, I am not a tank in any shape or form.
Monks, who can solo dark blues, can tank. Rogues who get their asses handed to them by green cons, are not tanks.
Put a shaman or beastlord in the group and yes, I can tank. But then again, the shaman, or the beastlord, or the beastlords pet, or the cleric, or the ranger, or the pally, shadowknight, etc. most anyone can tank a slowed mob because then it's just a matter of keeping up with the healing, which is quite easy on a slowed mob.
Four times out of five in the past few months, monks have been the only tank in my groups, doubling as puller. Most people would say no to adding a warrior into the group unless the mobs were particulalry hard hitting.
~Aly
</p>
"I dunno, should a little piece of leather really protect you as much as an inch of steel?"
Hmmm, should plate wearing classes with SOW run as fast as leather wearing classes?
Hmmm, shouldn't plate wearing classes drown when they are in water?
Just some food for thought.
</p>
Zildjin
10-08-2002, 11:44 PM
I just cancelled 4 accounts. If a few hundred or thousand people do this tonight, Verant will notice.
I always buy 3 months at a time and I have about 1.5 months left on all 4, so Verant has that long to prove to me they didn't completely fuck the game with these upcoming changes.
The Relentless (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=231623>Rjey</a>
<a), Cazic Thule</p>
Monks take no penalty? have you ever had to run around not looting absolutely shit because your ac takes a 60ac hit in 4 FS weapons? Do you have absolutely any idea what so ever how hard it is to get money as a monk????????
THIS CLASS WAS FUN TO PLAY, WTF IS WRONG WITH THAT?
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/urobert135.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Robert135</A> at: 10/8/02 7:46:06 pm
DzenMercedMuir
10-08-2002, 11:45 PM
I have 4 accounts. 2 are guild accounts. I will most likely be cancelling all of them. Not only do I fear the monk change. I am afraid some of the other changes will push some of my friends over the edge to quitting too. This is bs. I am not uber. I do not outdamage rogues or tank better then warriors/pallies or sk. Maybe rangers. I have met shaman that seem to take damage almost as well as I do.
I seldom complain. But frankly I do not remember ever getting an upgrade. AA abilities were poor for us. I believe the hybrid aa has unbalanced the game. Now this.
Why bother with this or any verant game anymore. Im not so much mad... as finally pushed to the point of finding something else to do with my time. Probably a good thing.
I will give them a week or two. Then I guess there will be less lag on Torvo. Enjoy POP. I will not bother buying that.
Good luck all. It was fun while it lasted.
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Sciurus
10-08-2002, 11:46 PM
i dont see any mage happy about the mod rod nerf ... i could see it if they increased their damage,or fixed pet pathing, or something. Before this time (assuming it actually goes through) they had something they were good at, they could end a raid and look at a mobs corpse, and go "Hmmm if it wasnt for me, that mob would not of died." I know a lot of mages in my guild can sure as hell say that. Druids can nuke better than them, and now the one thing they were good at was nerfed. They are as jobless as we are now, why the hell would they like it.
Tannah (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=15480)
57 Unconquered (http://www.monkly-business.com>Monk</A>)
Drinal
Post counts dont matter! (post count +1 yay!!!!)
</p>
Alyssia, while I do not doubt level 60 monks in very nice gear are excellent tanks, I am also 52, and in decent, if not uber gear. I also get hit like a red headed stepchild <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">
So I must second the "Best tank my ass" comment. And I'm a monk...
</p>
I tanked the AoW once. Of course, I DID die after three hits total. That stung. I think I had time to realize I had temp stolen agro JUST as the loading screen popped lol.
Traab "Love Machine" Fellhammer
Human Mob Compactor of the 52nd Cycle
And Almost Too Sexy To Live!
"Ill get him next time though! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"> "
</p>
You also have no concept of what a 60 rogue in excellent gear from ntov and vex thal tanks like, he'd solo your sebilis frog without a heal,
Whip out his VP sword that gives a mark of karn buff.
Don his fungi.
And Gain hit points fighting the average frog in sebilis.
This isn't a guess there are rogues in my guild with only some tov gear, A VP sword, primal and a few other toys that Solo faster and better than I can as a level 60 monk.
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21023 </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ubelthos.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Belthos</A> at: 10/8/02 7:56:42 pm
Glaydor
10-08-2002, 11:56 PM
ok so let me get this straight. as a monk I am expected to go out find a mob (and thanks to the last patch if I want decent xp must be white/yellow/red) bring it back so a group of 6 or more can beat it to make xp. But since we werent dieng enough having a mob with 20-30khp beating on our backs, stunning us and nuking us they have now decided I should take more damage and die sooner.
/Rude Verant
F you
Im already bored with the game, Cant find groups and the only thing I can solo is light blue and give next to no xp. Now they are removing soloing ability totally. Ill play october and see what the patch does, if it nerfs the class that much. Bye bye. We dont need the game as much as it needs us. And I will stop pulling
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Shamans can solo dargons without cheating. Should they be nerfed? No! Lets give the Cheal as well.
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Monks got screwed in this, i wonder how many times im going to die, trying to pull ntov flurry drakes now = guess it might be time to start playing my ranger twink now
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Soygen
10-08-2002, 11:59 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ok so let me get this straight. as a monk I am expected to go out find a mob (and thanks to the last patch if I want decent xp must be white/yellow/red) bring it back so a group of 6 or more can beat it to make xp. But since we werent dieng enough having a mob with 20-30khp beating on our backs, stunning us and nuking us they have now decided I should take more damage and die sooner.<hr></blockquote>Verant NEVER wanted monks(or any class) pulling stuff. They want you, as a group, to move through dungeons. Pulling was just a bi-product of bad design and a cool feature(feign death).
http://home.attbi.com/~sinman/webshots/soysig.jpg (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=736)</p>
This game died the day they gave classes benefits to make them "more fun".
Those of you claiming that monks have always been tanks, since forever and ever...I wonder if you played the same game as me back then.
The Mod rod nerf is the dumbest, It just requires raids to have more people now. Whee, great.
</p>
Sciurus
10-09-2002, 12:01 AM
yes but dont you think it is a little late in the game to be fixing it? CHange it with EQ2, let the people that enjoy this GAME DEFINING skill still enjoy their game ... and pay for it for goodness sake. I dont see how VI could do this, they are losing so many paying customers, it just seems like bad sense.
Tannah (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=15480)
57 Unconquered (http://www.monkly-business.com>Monk</A>)
Drinal
Post counts dont matter! (post count +1 yay!!!!)
</p>
Wow, Soygen I couldn't have said it better. These quitting monks crack me up. "OMG, I can't solo now! OMFG, FD pulling is gonna be harder now! OMG!" Jee, I don't remember Verant saying monks were suppose to exploit FD to pull with and monks being a solo class anyway. Wtf, get over it or quit, I don't care
</p>
Hmm
First we really don't know exactly how drastic the changes will be could end up being almost nothing (but SOE track record is not good for this).
Now How it effects game:
RAIDS / Large Guild HIGH END:
Unless nerfed so bad monk can not survive a pull, will this effect at all. While not Uber guilded, the raids I have been on, I make DAMN sure my monk (even with good gear) does not get hit. Level 55 human monk non-buffed 1090 ac I think is prety darn good, yet Raid levels mobs still tear me apart if I gain aggro. So Raids, besides for pulls I do NOT get hit, no big deal.
High END single group:
Here it might hurt some. High end harder zones, I can short term tank in bad situation (tank main, while tank regrabs add that aggrod caster), but generally still am not getting hit, so might still be feasiable.
Normal EXP group:
For an exp grind group, my monk COULD (not preferred) but COULD be main tank. My expierence says that even under the present situation my SK (don't really play a warrior) can Tank a lot better for a lot less mana heals than my monk can, While I will admit my Monk presently can tank better than most Rangers (of same level) and almost all rogues (of same level) to me this is not out of place. as Rogues WILL outdamage me (if they can get back shots), Even pre-AM3 rangers can come close to me, so that I can funtion as main tank for mobs slightly better than ranger or rogue seems reasonable. Now this is where I see the pain begin. Right now I can still get 'pick-up' groups based on somebody wanting damage and a tank. Although I still find if they have no 'tank' almost any group will grab a warrior/SK/Pally before me (if they have decent DPS already and are looking for tank). Post change it will get even harder for me to get a causal group.
SOLO:
Right now with good (very good for non-uber guild) equipment I can begin to solo for exp but doing very low dark blues. It is slower than any of my other characters (SK, Shaman, Druid, Mage, Beast) but I can do it. However with out very good equipment (which I am lucky enough to have) I do NOT see most monk post 50 soloing and GUILDmates and friends find it almost impossible to with 'normal' gear. If there is any appreciable change I see SOLOing becoming totally impossible for anything but a maxxed out AA 60 monk with uber gear cranking out the 40-45 mobs.
So my concerns and complains about the changes (to be posted as soon as EQLIVE is up again) is RAID/High-End this may not effect game that much. However for a large percentage of monks in the that causal group (or the brave hardy ones that try to solo) this will all but kill their ability to even consider tanking.
Further they say we are to be offensive and such our defensive skills are too close to the 'plate' classes. Well if we are to be offensive (and such have to have our defensive skills lessened) why are we (high end) generally rate third best damage (after rogues and AM3 rangers)
So to me, this means monks MIGHT stay in RAID?uber groups as damage dealer (little change with nerf), but the causual or solo player monk will all but dissappear.
Thanks SOE, as somebody else put it we have been rangered (wince) and somehow given the late state of game, do not see people hanging around long enough to whine about it for a year and a half to get it changed.
</p>
Cancel your dam accounts, im canceling 4 tonight right now. Fuck em, no use talking about it. The only thing they see is dollars. If this is an issue for you cancel your account(s) now.
</p>
On a lighter note,
The chat channel on your server for Team Manaburn has been changed.
Please /join Taxi to find them
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21023 </p>
This is all a big marketing ploy. All monks will be able to get back to the way they were with a huge tremendous quest or aap skill set when POP comeso ut <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> YOu have to buy pop and waste another year getting back to it though <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
Oh... and the other marketing position on this is you will quit EQ and waste even more of your life in EQ 2 or SWG <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
</p>
First, let me say, I agree that the monk change is BS.
However, teh claims that mages like this change...just go to mage compenduim, read the thread.
WE HATE IT. We're almost totally useless now. Yes, we want to be damage dealers, but right now, we don't have the damage to do it. Nor the ability to be a support player either.
We just end up as useless. This nerf series was pathetic. Verent needs to reinsert thier brains back into thier heads and say "Just kidding!"
Baron Naldiin Aredhel'Istar (Level 56 Conjuror)</p>
SOOOOOOOO, instead what they would prefer is the entire raid force running into a room with a half dozen nasty mobs and try to kill the whole lot at once? Im sorry Soy, but while they may not have ORIGIONALLY wanted pulling to happen they have basically designed the whole damn game around pulling mobs to a camp. To change it now after such a long time is kinda screwed up in my book.
I happen to agree with the monk change to an extent. There is no way in hell I was ever meant to tank better than a same level plate class character in roughly equal gear. NO WAY. Sure, I should be ABLE to tank in exp groups, but not better than a freaking warrior. Its gotten to the point where,(BTW, I am in mainly reinforced acryllia, with a few random nice odds and ends) unless the warrior is in full skyshrine and weilding a boc/sod combo I am just a freaking better choice for tank in most exp groups! Of course, this IS Verant so you know we will all log on post pach to see our ac cut down from 1400 to 1000 even or something disgusting like that. Its the right idea but with verant you know itll be screwed up royally.
Traab "Love Machine" Fellhammer
Human Mob Compactor of the 52nd Cycle
And Almost Too Sexy To Live!
"I agree though, if we are gonna tank worse than chain then we had BETTER outdamage rogues!"
</p>
Still noone has stepped forward to say they are or know of a monk that performs MT duties on a high end raid. I know plate classes that I raid with tank *far* better than I do in my experience.
I know I'm doing good to kill low blues solo (which give less XP than they used to thanks to the XP nerf). My moderately equiped necro solos so much better than my decently equiped monk it isnt funny.
So basically they are doing this to compensate for the fact that they made godly 60 AC items that are all/all and that 99.5% of the monks will never see? That is total BS, imo. Punishing lower end people for Verant's poor choice in what classes could use given equip is just *wrong*.
<a HREF=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=340994>Kthan Ashenfist</a>
The Last Humble House
</p>
Rangers crack me up...
Ranger tells you, 'This is more realistic, you wear leather, you shouldn't tank as well as someone with plate or chain'.
Yea, Rangers -- stalkers of the forest, great in their ability of stealth -- wearing chain mail. How realistic is sneaking up on anything - with loader then hell chain mail?
Rogues are almost as bad -- stating we're getting put where we deserve. Pretty easy for them to say, since they outdamage Monks, and now will be able to out tank Monks.
************
Verant - you gave Wizards their 5 Manaburn points back -- mind giving Monks their AA points they spent on defensive ability?
Blah - one can only hope it isn't as bad as it seems it will be.
Shaethius (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=64280>Whiplassh</a>
<a)</p>
We can't out-damage rogues. High DPS is really all they do, they're even more one dimensional than non-pulling monks.
It's a bit early to get excited. The real question will be method and degree. I hope the change will be moderate and monks will still have a role to play in PoP. Hell, at worst will still be very decent DPS generators. However I must admit that ranger's are looking even better as a class. Huge archery damage, High melee damage, Self healing, utility spells and tank better than us? very tempting.
Shinrai, Monk of the Lost Circle.
A proud member of Southern Armada
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showLocalUserPublicProfile?lo gin=shinrai>Shinrai</A> at: 10/8/02 8:21:19 pm
Didn't they "unchange" the blue con xp nerf?
And Soy, what verant intended, and what verant created, have never really lined up that well. I agree they dislike feign pulling, and have stated that directly. But then again, they decided to leave it in, and have structured a lot accordingly.
Then they went and structured monks defensively. I honestly don't have that big a problem with this, since I don't like to solo, and I am a lousy tank, but I wish they would give an offensive boost since they are changing the focus, to help out the people getting hit harder than me ^_^
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Hey haeldaur, we were playing the same game... But we were actually playing monks so we know WTF we are talking about.
Monks being tank?
Always could have. They JUST realized they dont want that after a year and a half of not raising our offensive strenghts while focusing on our defensive strenghts.
Can any warriors, pally, sk, even thought most of them are dimwits ACTUALLY get a GRASP of the NONSENSICAL Side of this whole crap?! Or will we have to once again rally dot a to dot b to dot c so that your miniscule plate crushed BRAINS get the picture?!
Almost all monks are not saying It shouldn't be. What we all saying is: VI it F*****g doesnt make sense and if you want it this way put us back on par in the damage dealing department where we lost our margins to all the damn other classes you gave uber damage enhance abilities BECAUSE VERANT GAVE US MAINLY DEFENSIVE ENHANCEMENTS DESPITE SAYING FOR YEARS WE ARE AN OFFENSIVE CLASS AND NOW SAYING WE SHOULDNT HAVE THOSE DEFENSIVE POWERS.
Wake up you VI ftards! What the hell are we suppose to be? You dont want us to pull, you dont want us to tank and since you didn't improve our offensive powers much, we shouldnt be that much an offensive class either. WTF are we then? Can you go a damn week withouth completely contradicting yourselves?!
Yes I am grumpy! I arrived home from a trip to go on message board and enjoy talks about my class and I come to this piece of shit?
I am sorry for the harsh words but I can't stand moronism and verant achieved moronic move of the year in the gaming industry with this nonsense.
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<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "SK's become the new pullers" <hr></blockquote>
People seriously need to stop overreacting and get a clue.
Monks will always be best pullers to FD split mobs as long as their FD is instant and the other classes' isn't.
Monks aren't going to be worthless, you'll still be able to tank just fine and with your higher hp's, your nothing at all like a necromancer. In fact I wouldn't doubt it if we saw monks still tanking rampage in VT after this nerf. Its not even funny to see the comparisons... But the thing is, nobody knows for sure because there's no details, yet a lot of people seem to like taking rash decisions without any valid arguments...
Just wait and see, its funny how people are so sure they're going to quit or already have, when they dont even know exactly whats happening or even how bad the nerf is.
I'm confident the game will be better after all this heh..
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AHAHAHAHAHAHA
AAHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAaa
/em breathes
ahahahahhahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
this is great...i quit because verant is gay, and no one would believe me, then this ahahahahahahahahah
Sig Test!
OMG! It works!</p>
they prolly have fun sitting around a camp fire asking each other how they can fuck over people... its enertainment to the programmers...
Im pretty 2 sided by the nerf, im happy by it in some parts... im really glad manaburn is getting nurfed, mages will be more happy now that they arent all about mod rods (stick to Coth, something your good at <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> ). The reason CHeal is getting nurfed is the fact that in PoP you will be able to get over 10k hp and one spell that refills your life isnt fair, hate to see this but its true it needed to be nerfed.
But they have to nerf the monks, the one pure class that was left... there was nothing to complain about... we could pull, solo, and handle ourselves. The only thing we were the best at was pulling, which we were fine with... now i doubt were gonna be able to pull as well as before, we wont be able to handle ourselves solo, and were gonna have alot less fun playing our class.
I say dont worry, they will probably change it back when they see we cant pull the new level 75 and 80 mobs they probably have in store for us in PoP. Back to the bard pulling like in the beginning of EQ...
whatever.... prolly gonna quit...
<img src=http://www.strike9.com/file.aspx/path=/demulix/fullsize/sig.jpg></img>
Gwyvrn Phantomfists
57 Master
Fennin Ro</p>
sk feign is lousy anyway. I frequently play with friends who are a necro and sk respectively, and I frequently have to distract the mob in some way while they flop around like dying fishes when a fight goes bad ^_^
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I have an account with a 55 necro and a 54 monk... I quit the game due to computer problems and was just about to start up... A good 95% or more of my monks exp was from soloing and when I try to find a group I usually just spend a few hours seeing real tanks get the groups... If I remember my ac was 970ish <I know its bad but I'm poor> and I had SCHW for hast and a fungi so I could solo but nothing great... I can see them lowering the AC cap to 1300 but if they do more than that no way in hell I'm starting up again. Makeing a monk less usefull in the game doesn't make the game better for anybody...
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Bite the bullet and shut the hell up. This was needed to balance the classes you greedy, petty little people.
I cannot believe my fellow classmates are so short-sighted as to make a gigantic whinefest out of this.
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As far as monks should not be able to take as much damage because we wear leather....anyone ever wathc ESPN late at night??? ever seen some of the martial arts stuff?? it consists of people just having things broken over their bare skin... part of being a martial artist is your ability to withstand pain and keep going.... of course against a sword is something else... also if plate classes get lightning refexes i am out of here i mean come on! plate mail was not made for fast movement...
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Best realistic way to avoid this change happening... widen the scope of people it effects....
The argument for Rogues doing more damage than Monks is that Monks can tank better than Rogues (and anybody who really knows how well Rogues tank know that the gap has never been large between the two classes tanking, people just *think* Rogues tank badly, they dont).... If Rogues now tank better than Monks, they just lost their reason for doing more damage than Monks.
Soooo.... we start shouting for Monks to be the #1 melee damage dealer.... Rogues aint going to like the sound of that, and you just increased the scope of those effected adversely by the patch.
VI is far less likely to implement something that has two classes screaming "NOOOOO".
We just got to educate Rogues how this disolves their right to the #1 slot.
We then got to educate Rogues (and to a lesser degree) that the logic that see the Monk tanking ability Nerfed will see the same happen to the chain classes.
If we can't solo, and we can't tank, and we can only pull lightweight mobs... we need to be #1 damage dealers again, not #2.
Lets see how they like them apples.
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Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=266873), Iksar Monk of Xev.
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Dubious member of Hawkestone (http://pub72.ezboard.com/bhawkestone).
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<div>
"I stare, it stares back.
I long to know its feelings.
It demurs. Lunch, then."
</div></p>
Well those sk's have DA now which effectively drops them to the bottom of the aggro list, after which they probably don't even need to feign.
As for FD failing, I'm level 60, have rapid feign 3, skill max, and still flop around like a fish out of water trying to feign at times.
Sk's can split with darkness in many places, it's a huge help.
Sk's can pull with 250 range bows.
Sk's can pull using those pets of theirs also, to literally pull mobs from around corners.
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21023 </p>
I would like to see the damage that monks do compared to a equaly skilled warrior, he can do our damage and tank.
This nerf is to stop monks from soloing- PERIOD.
No Soloing = no fun.
I never had fun playing EQ while grouped. To many FTardsm and way too boring. (12 people beat up one bad guy) talk about overkill.
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To the monks saying no warrior has come out and stated that monks tank on high end raids--this is true, but it's also irrelevent. This change doesn't really affect the high end monks, it effects the monks that tank in CT exp groups, because it's more efficient, leaving warriors completely useless in an exp group situation.
I'm not saying this is the right solution, the right solution would have been a mitigation upgrade for warriors.
I also must have missed the memo that said monks should be uber and great at soloing. This just seems to be an assumed fact. Mad about something unique you had taken away from you? Welcome to the party.
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/wave (almost) balanced monks
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<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=6347>Baron Draxus Diablus</a>
Teir'Dal Warlord
In your spare time you may study the word of god, and my god says this:
Get a sword, get on a horse, and go out and kill anyone who does not like you.
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Sciurus
10-09-2002, 12:32 AM
people need to stop saying mages will be happy now that they dont have to summon mod rods .. THEIR NOT. its like everyone else telling us that we are happy now because we wont have to pull. Mod rods is what they did, pulling is what we did. So it could be assumed that if we're mad, they are (besides the fact that many have stated that they are mad, just as many are quitting as us)
Tannah (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=15480)
57 Unconquered (http://www.monkly-business.com>Monk</A>)
Drinal
Post counts dont matter! (post count +1 yay!!!!)
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This is just lovely. So many people from other classes just had to stop by and say this is such a great change. These defensive changes are potentially catastrophic to the monk player base. The attitude of the plate class player base in this situation is childish, pathetic, and doesn't get thier class issues fixed either.
How in the world do you think nerfing us makes you better? Sure, the total of 20 monks that play this game in VT and tank adds there won't be able to do it anymore. Will this allow you to actually tank those mobs any better, or will it allow you to feel better about your tanking knowing that monks can't do it.
Instead of pointing fingers at other classes skills and ablilites how about try a little harder to get your own skills and abilities retuned. It would help us all out if plate classes could mitigate damage like they are supposed to. That should be your focus...not us.
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Goat Frenesi
10-09-2002, 12:35 AM
Reiteration from Shory (good summary, btw):
"Bite the bullet and shut the hell up. This was needed to balance the classes you greedy, petty little people."
Pulling affected? Paaaaaaaleeeeeeaaaaaaaze.
Thx~ insta fd.
Thx~ stone stance.
Thx~ mend.
The 3 cornerstones of monk pulling, and none of them are changed.
Oh well, VI shows some balls by showing that they aren't afraid to do what they think is right for the game by actually nerfing instead of trying to upgrade around that which they feel needs to be nerfed.
<table><tr><td><center><font face="Arial" size="1">Goatiana Ebonhoof (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=276165), Savage Lady of Hate
Kambing the Disciple (Retired)
Brell Serilis - Silent Redemption (http://www.silentredemption.org) - Guild Leader</font></center></td></tr></table></p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Well those sk's have DA now which effectively drops them to the bottom of the aggro list, after which they probably don't even need to feign.<hr></blockquote>
Not really that useful for pulling though. If you are the puller, you're the only person ON the aggro list, so DA is irrelevant for a bad pull (other than keeping you alive). And if you've made it back to the group and you're the tank, DAing just got your chanter/cleric/shaman flogged ^_^
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> As for FD failing, I'm level 60, have rapid feign 3, skill max, and still flop around like a fish out of water trying to feign at times.<hr></blockquote>
I get that too at times. seems to come in waves, then go away and I feign wonderfully at times. WTG random number generator. Still, I don't flop anywhere near as bad as my friends, and am 52 and have no rapid feign no max skill.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Sk's can split with darkness in many places, it's a huge help.
<hr></blockquote>
Aye, I concur with that.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Sk's can pull with 250 range bows.<hr></blockquote>
I'm no expert on ranged weaponry, so I won't attempt this one ^_^
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Sk's can pull using those pets of theirs also, to literally pull mobs from around corners. <hr></blockquote>
Situationally useful aye.
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LaotzuQigong
10-09-2002, 12:36 AM
I'm not so worried about the intent of the nerfs as the unforeseen consequences due to poor implementation.
Nerf manaburn? Sure, 60s manaburn timer sounds like a good idea, but also consider that this means wizards with MB are no longer stackable on any fight that lasts less than 60 s, not to mention they're unstackable as they scale up. Like that 3 minute vindicator fight? Better not have more than 3 wizards. How about that 5 minute statue fight? Sorry, 4 wizards is the limit on MB. In luclin, the difference will be trivial, and it's nice that you're going to have no MB teams farming Kunark, but then what about those times when you're grouped with 2 wizzies, your back is to the wall, and need to take down a mob fast? Not gamebreaking by any stretch, but will most likely reduce some utility for the wizard class.
Eliminate mod2? Sounds good on paper, but let's look at this realistically. The list of current mobs that require mod rods for all intensive purposes is massive. Tunare, Tormax, Yelinak, THO, IV, Burrower, Emp, Archlich, Glyphed Cycle, XTC, Shei Vinitras, not to mention all the mobs in VT. So what are they going to do? Retune these mobs as 100k hp encounters?
Let's not forget that in almost EVERY guild on every server there's a *SHORTAGE* of clerics. I don't think I've ever seen a guild that didn't have an open recruiting call for clerics. Now let's say they leave most of the encounters in the game as is and retune only the biggest hp mobs (500k+). You're still talking a minimum of 6 to 10 clerics just for an encounter like Tormax. How many guilds really have 10 clerics online every time they decide to raid? Hell, most guilds already bot clerics like crazy. Why is that? Truth be told, there aren't enough clerics in the game. Mod2 made it possible to do many of these encounters with fewer clerics. And don't come tell me that you can stick druids and shammies in the cheal chains. Fact is, 3k and 2k heals just don't cut it when a mob quads for 700, or 1054 or 1100 + flurry or quads for 1k+ with a 3k+ dd proc.
In an ideal world, Verant would go in and retune all the boss mobs and everything would be peachy keen. However, given their track record for doing this, it seems pretty unlikely to me. How long did it take for them to fix broken quest content? How long for them to fix rogues and rangers to some degree? When did they fix bard stacking? Oh yah, they didn't. How long did we learn to live with broken FD? I'm not holding my breath.
As for the impending monk nerf, my interpretation is that they are just going to readjust the ac softcaps for mitigation purposes. Most likely, our total ac displayed will remain the same, however our mitigation will be moved to a seperate lower table. (Anyone read that parse that 800 ac for wizards is the max before mitigation max is reached?)
This in my view is a pisspoor solution to the disparity between monk and plate class tanking. How much is our avoidance advantage really? According to parses, it's a stunning 6%. That's right, we avoid 6% more damage due to increased blocking capability. Anyone want to bet our mitigation will be reduced by a helluva lot more than 6%?
In a nutshell, Verant created a crappy mitigation model that hit it's limit with NToV and Luclin. They didn't foresee that every melee class would reach the stratosphere in terms of AC. 1800 and 1700 ac warriors were not in their original design, so they never planned mitigation/avoidance around it. So, instead of fixing the mitigation model by allowing better mitigation for high ac's, they try to "fix" it by nerfing mitigation for monks downwards.
I've always felt that warrior mitigation should be improved. They could have done this through lowering mob attack values or moving plate classes to a seperate mitigation table.
Instead, they chose the easy way out. They reduce monk effectiveness.
So what is the result of this? Monks die more pulling. Monks probably lose soloing effectiveness. And monks become less desirable in groups.
Also, keep in mind that even IF they improve our avoidance capability, it's not like it'll help much considering nearly all our avoidance skills depend on us FACING the mob. Don't know about you, but pulling flurry drakes and crypt guardians is brutal enough with our current mitigation. Increasing our dodge/block/riposte won't help crap all while pulling. Reduce our mitigation and I hope you're ready for longer raids and fewer raiding monks. Remember when shammies/clerics died on every pull due to messed up aggro? It's not very fun is it? Monks already die more often than just about any other class in game. See how many monks want to keep playing when that number doubles or triples.
As for those who felt that monks never had good defensive capability, I suggest you go back to pre-kunark. Monks ALWAYS had the highest or near highest AC in the game. We also had the highest DPS in the game. Since Kunark, we've stayed about the same in terms of defensive capability, and lost some ground in offensive.
Now you might ask what price we paid for our fine offensive and defensive capabilities?
Well, we pay alot more than you think...
1) Reduced HPs. Yes, the gap is smaller percentage-wise than pre-kunark, but fact is our hps are about 1k to 2k less than other plate tanks until Ssra and VT.
2) Weight limit. You might not think it's an issue, but the fact is until a monk is NToV capable or better, weight is and always is an issue. We pay a 6 ac per stone penalty by being overweight at level 60. After NToV weight usually isn't an issue, but then post-ntov monks aren't really the majority are they?
3) Resist penalties. Yeah, most people don't know about this, but monks have the crappiest resists in game, hands down. I've got mostly NtoV or better gear and still can't break 100 in all 6 resists. Most monks can't break 100 in ANY resist without swapping to resist gear. Compare this to most plate classes who have 100+ in all 6 resists in equivalent gear. And don't even ask about Bards and Casters who reach 150+ in base resists in many cases. And with new resist changes, it's even harder for monks.
In the end, will these changes break the game? Well, the MB, monk and cheal changes won't... the one I'm most worried about is the changes implied with the removal of rod2.
Will these changes make ALOT of people VERY unhappy?
All you have to do is read the threads Verant.
LaotzuQigong
60 Grandmaster
Legendary
The Tribunal
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<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Monks will always be best pullers to FD split mobs as long as their FD is instant and the other classes' isn't.
<hr></blockquote>
Well Monks aren't always the best puller as it stands... lots of places were an SK makes a better puller due to the fact they can Snare.
But we don't need to argue this, I am (and a lot of other Monks), who feel that we're the best pullers, but not by a huge margin toward the top are about to see SKs step up when guilds get fed up with their Monks dying constantly.
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Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=266873), Iksar Monk of Xev.
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Dubious member of Hawkestone (http://pub72.ezboard.com/bhawkestone).
</div>
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"I stare, it stares back.
I long to know its feelings.
It demurs. Lunch, then."
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Bite the bullet and shut the hell up. This was needed to balance the classes you greedy, petty little people.
I cannot believe my fellow classmates are so short-sighted as to make a gigantic whinefest out of this.
**************
Get real please, they announced this to test the waters and gauge reaction.
If you for one minute do not understand that the only defense we have against them screwing us up completely is to voice our outrage at the one sidedness of this, you are sadly mistaken.
This alters the values of the armor and aa choices I made getting here and those represent a massive investment of time and energy, and I have an absolute right to voice my concern that they are throwing the baby out the window with the bathwater.
This changes entirely how I'd chose to equip myself, how I'd chose to aquire and use aa points and you sir stand up and tell us it's necessary and to shut up.
My advice to you is take your own advice and shut up whining about us whining.
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21023 </p>
Yuffie RZ
10-09-2002, 12:36 AM
Too many posts to bother reading this whole thread.
Verant is intentionally trying to get themselves in the history books again.
Don't be surprised if people actually try to form a riot and raid VI headquarters for this.
-Yuffie
[Fri Mar 29 14:47:36 2002] You kick sebilite juggernaut for 268 points of damage.
[Fri Apr 05 21:36:52 2002] You kick Xenevorash for 44 points of damage.
[Fri Apr 05 21:36:52 2002] You have slain Xenevorash!</p>
Yea I know, another damn paladin coming out of the shadows...but here's my 2 cents <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
This defensive change is definitely long overdue. As they stood, monks could outdamage warriors (who outdamage hybrids by a good amount...saw someone who said we do the same damage as warriors earlier in this post. Ha!), outtank warriors, and had all sorts of other neat utilities like mend and FD. Monks were really the ultimate melee class, and this defensive nerf is by and large a good thing.
However, I do think that monk offense could definitely be upped. The gap that has been created between rogues with 15-16+ damage piercers and monk damage has become far too large. Monk damage should be vastly increased, and I really like the idea that I saw of an assassinate ability that works from any angle on a mob. Yea, I won't get into the INSANE gap between hybrids->warriors->monk->rogue, that's another story...but rogues are definitely much farther than they should be on that scale.
You guys really need to be practical about this. Would I be pissed if I was the best tank in the game, and 2nd best damage dealer, and then have that position be taken away suddenly? Surely I would. But one class that can do it all, better than anyone else in almost every respect, is broken. Plain and simple.
And to all those people who ask when monks tank in the high-end game? Monks currently are bar-none THE best rampage tanks in the game...We use them on Emperor Ssraeshza, VT mobs, and pretty much everything else that has rampage.
Anyway, I think this upcoming patch has the potential to be one of the best ever. However, I'll definitely be rooting for a monk offensive increase (as well as war/PAL/sk!)
Cheers,
Gruffy
60 Paladin
Triton of Povar
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Plain and simple. monks are unbalancing to the game. As was MB in its current form.
Sorry your ability to solo is being hurt, but your friggin monks!!
A DPS increase.. please!!! Crack is bad for you. I say this because any monk that thinks they dont spam enough damage already, is definatley smoking crack.
These changes get ALOT of thigs resolved. They are actualy going to fix high end encounters.
This is by far the most whiningI have ever seen because of a nerf, and your calling for others to be nerfed BECAUSE you were nerfed. The exact things you ask eeryone else NOT to do.
Since monks have never been nerfed before now heres how it goes....
VI says "Such and such is going to happen"
At this point you bend over and take it.
Thats how its done.
In all seriousness guys.. this is really for the good of the game.
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I love the fucking newb peices of shit who come here as their first post to gloat. big FUCK YOU to you.
Do I look forward to being #3 damage dealer and #8 tank? Nope.
Am I going to spend another year getting aaexp just to get to where I was before this nerf? Nope.
Do I agree that we shouldnt be able to tank, when it is what we do every time we pull, solo, or exp grind without a warrior? Nope
And do I agree, that we were a smug class, gloating over our abilities and we deserve to be at the bottom of the heap? Asshole, before you bought your ebayd account, let me introduce you to an expansion called Kunark, when monks were the red headed stepchild of VI. Dont tell me to get used to being on teh bottom. We were there.
Cuthul Paindancer
Master of the Path of Pain(Rodcet Nife)
Warlords of Wrath
Cuthul's Moderately Ok Gear (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=329174)
Culthul's Little Girl (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=182753)
" I've put up with being subpar damage wise because I was a fucking truck...now I'm just a little midget in a jeep with a pellet gun." --Sarthis</p>
Manaburn nerf is stupid also. GG whining newbies. Now you can not kill Gorenaire just like you didnt kill her when manaburn was normal
I distinctly remember killing quite a few RoK dragons until a few months into Luclin, oddly after that they seemed to stop spawning...
They really have given themselves a massive job retuning 2 expansions worth of encounters. Anyone want to bet on it being done before the nerf bat is swung?
Why's that, Mod Rod 2 is a luclin spell; no velious encounters should be touched other than RoV.
Rogues have just become the defacto best tank in the game and the highest damage melee all wrapped into one.
Why's that, last I checked they don't have an innate avoidance or block, at best they'd be a warrior with less HP and no defensive.
believe since even that 7.5% better or whatever block chance over parry isnt going to negate 2-3k more hp and defensive disc
That’s the point though, the upper warriors didn't have 2-3k more HP, defensive is also only up 20% of the time /shrug.
And just look at them! Almost every class in game could significantly raise their damage with the new AA's
Wrong, the only class that got a real damage upgrade was Rangers (paladins got 20% vs undead, not many around though). You're also forgetting that since Kunark monks got pushed to a whole new table, and benefited greatly from the 2h DB change.
I still do the dps of the bard when I'm not tanking, and even worse when I am.
Erm ya... what are you using, fighting batons at 60?
Shamans can solo dargons without cheating. Should they be nerfed? No! Lets give the Cheal as well.
Shamans never asked for CH (in fact most were rather surprised to find out they were getting it), nor is it actually any good. 2k heal for 400 mana and a 10s cast isn't very useful
A fair amount of posters seem to think that the skill defense is being lowered, it sounds more like they're re-tuning the hidden tables. So this will unlikely change AC, just the way its interrupted, it may only have a very minor affect on the majority of monks.
There are also a few posts that advocate increasing plate mitigation rather than lowering monks. That could seriously hurt the game, all encounters would suddenly become easier and the cycle of mudflation would continue.
Lightning Reflexes, this seems to be a % based skill, monks will gain more from it than other classes.
You've also got to ignore realism when talking about Steel vs. Leather (ignore the fact both are enchanted,) what needs to be looked at is balance.
A mod should reign in some of these posters, break out the edit / suspension sticks; no need for the useless garbage some are spewing.
Luthair [60 Crusader] (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=6318)
Alakazaam [54 Magician] (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=95228)</p>
Leather class=dru monk
We will be real crap paper like a druid!
OMG
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It's for the good of the game till it happens to you!
But really, does anyone think nerfs do anyone any good by now? All classes should have formed some solidarity by this time, brothas in pain...
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Sciurus
10-09-2002, 12:46 AM
we ... are .... not .... the ... best .... tank ..... in .... the ... game.
Tannah (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=15480)
57 Unconquered (http://www.monkly-business.com>Monk</A>)
Drinal
Post counts dont matter! (post count +1 yay!!!!)
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Monks being superior tanks against serious mobs is simply rubbish. Sure, they may be better tanks against the low blues that people XP on, where the damage is low and avoidance works well, but there is no guild in EQ using a monk as MA.
The entire thing is simply class envy on behalf of plate classes.
And paladins, don't be looking too smug. The warriors are going to be after your asses next.
Shinrai, Monk of the Lost Circle.
A proud member of Southern Armada
</p>
http://files.joako.com/kickintheass.gif
<table style="background-color:#FFFFCC" border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="2">
<tr style="background-color:#CCCCFF;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold;font-size:10pt" align="center">
<td>My Characters</td>
<td>My trade skills</td>
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<option>Pottery 246</option>
<option>Smithing 175</option>
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mend is 25% hps every 6 minutes once u get the facts strait that isnt all that great. in many situations SK can pull better then us due to snare spells...only thing setting us appart was stonestance and decent mitigation. why fix the difference between warriors and monks...the 1500hps warriors get over monks is plenty. with pop that hp difference will likly be closer to 2000-2500. basicly what they have accomplished is making all the gear i worked on getting USELESS. the 110+aa i have useless. the class i play something i will no longer want to. what do i have to work for if i cant mitigate anything? its like a wizards saying they want more ac, its not something people will keep working for. my role has been set since SoL came out. my goals on equipment has been set and now that is useless except for hps. if this goes threw like they suggest it might expect to see # of monks drop in 1/2
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> We then got to educate Rogues (and to a lesser degree) that the logic that see the Monk tanking ability Nerfed will see the same happen to the chain classes.
<hr></blockquote>
Why does one follow the other. As well put by another ranger on our class
"Unless they replace our chainmail with damp tissues, I fail to see how they can reduce our defense much lower. "
The thought that chain classes will be nerfed because monks are is a non sequitur. Rangers get hit hard when they do get hit, and so should monks. Your defense comes from avoidance(or should) not mitigation.
<center><table>
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<td align="center" valign="bottom"><table style=filter:GLOW(color="crimson",strength=#+3)dropShadow(offx=3,offy=3)>
<font size=+1 color="yellow" face="garamond"> "Reaffirming the Ranger Stereotype for 55 Seasons"</font></table>
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http://members.netnevada.net/intruder/images/Arafysnew.jpg
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<font face="garamond" color="yellow" size="+1">
<table style=filter:GLOW(color="crimson",strength=#+3)dropShadow(offx=3,offy=3)> I can smell your brains... </table>
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<table style=filter:GLOW(color="crimson",strength=#+3)dropShadow(offx=3,offy=3)>
<center><font face="garamond" color="yellow" size="+1"> Fear my Pants! </font></center> (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=41867 )
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</center></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/uarafys.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Arafys</A>* http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/black_greenspot.gif at: 10/8/02 8:55:20 pm
Belthos said:
I'm easily one of the 6 best equipped monks on my server, I do not tank mobs on raids, Not one monk I know of in any guild on my server does.
You're easily one of the 6 best? No offense to your server, but if that's true, your server is truly backwoods.
Chaca
<div align= "center"><embed width = "400" heigth= "150" src ="http://home.ntelos.net/~ph4tl3wt/chacsig2.swf"></div></p>
Rogues have just become the defacto best tank in the game and the highest damage melee all wrapped into one.
Why's that, last I checked they don't have an innate avoidance or block
*************************
Rogues have a higher damage avoidance than any other class except monks, and they now have identical damage mitigation from armor.
Not to mention rogues wearing chain have a superior selection of armor to chose from, especially when it comes to resist gear.
This is why rogues are better tanks.
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21023 </p>
Shamans never asked for CH (in fact most were rather surprised to find out they were getting it), nor is it actually any good. 2k heal for 400 mana and a 10s cast isn't very useful
********************
You obviously aren't a shaman or very thoughtful, all the shaman in my guild are thrilled about the utility of this healing spell.
It's efficient.
It's not a heal over time, so the damage healed is instant AND allows multiple shaman heals on the same person AND doesn't require you to be grouped for torpor.
It IS a big deal.
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21023 </p>
these new changes are utter bull
*Asshole, before you bought your ebayd account, let me introduce you to an expansion called Kunark, when monks were the red headed stepchild of VI. Dont tell me to get used to being on teh bottom. *
PALADINS YOU FOOL
</p>
Ive been addicted to this game for quite some time. Have tried to quit in the past because its a real timesink, and havent' been able to.
However today...
...I just cancelled my account because its the only way Verant listens. I understand nerfs are necessary to balance a game correctly but take something away after so long ? That is not right.
Prefer soloing to raiding, although the ocassional group/raid is fine by me. Fortunately because of the FV item rules I can obtain high end items via trading aka farming of pp, it helps my solo game tremendously.
Will wait and see HOW exactly the nerf is implemented, if it kills my solo game, I swear Im placing every item in playerauctions and will never ever buy another Verant game again.
M
</p>
/shrug
this topic will die by thursday
Sionistic Triplefist
58 Monk
Veeshan
</p>
im probibly the 3rd best equiped monk on my server and i have yet to tank a real raid mob unless something is going very wrong. being on rampage is very different from tanking a mob...the reason monks are good for that is the fd in case heals arnt going to land
<center>
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Chaca Thanks for that note, go pester the wizards on their board ok?
I'm sure the trolling is better there if you wanna go fish.
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21023 </p>
So many things to say, might as well list them out.
#1 - As somebody who played a warrior up to 40 then retired him, I am glad to see the nerf bat finally hit the monk. I stopped playing my warrior becuase all I could do was tank. That was it. You bitch about your soloing abilities going down? Well at least you can solo, I could not. For exp, I was forced to spend countless hours looking for groups, and not getting in any becuase they had a monk. It happened so much, I got pissed off at monks in general.
#2 - You are a monk. You are a martial artist. How many of you know anything about martial arts? While I was never in martial arts, my borther was. I have also seen enough martial art matchs (From white to black belt stuff) to say this. Most of martial arts is about deflecting, reversing, and, blocking the blow. It is not about soaking a blow. Any martial artist who takes all the hits an enemy gives and counts on his/her own blows to win the fight, will fail. Thats what fighters (warriors) do. Monks should be about the quick damage. They should be-able to avoid taking damage until the tanks can taunt off not be a tank themselves.
#3 - Being a member of the SCA, I have trained in sword and sheild combat since I was 6. When I first picked up a sword, the weight was over-welming. Over time and with enough practice, I can now weild a 2-handed bastard sword with ease while wearing full chain armor. Yes, the stuff is heavy, but train enough, and you learn to adapt with the weight and wonder how it ever bothered you before. So stop saying that plate classes should get haste negs and such.
#4 - No clerics will not be-able to tank better than a monk. All clerics I know stopped worrying about their defence skill when they started grouping (ergo level 10 or so). Defense is important to over-all AC.
#5 - So you cant solo to 60 anymore. Big deal. This game is about grouping and should be. I also believe that the "Solo Classes" shouldn't be-able to solo to 60 as well.
#6 - Monks have options. You get FD, Sneak, Mend, Instill Doubt, etc. Warriors do not. Stop bitching about what you lost, and focus on what you still have.
In closing, monks will still have a place in Everquest. From lv1- lv65, monks will still be needed in many situations. I for one am glad the game is finally starting to go back to original class standards.
</p>
yall dont cry as much as the wizards do, gentlemen id like to direct you all to wizard bitching, moaning, and crazy leaking vaginas like you have never seen :
pub23.ezboard.com/fgraffe...1416.topic (http://pub23.ezboard.com/fgraffeswizardcompilationfrm1.showMessage?topicID= 21416.topic)
itll be a good read for months to come I'm SURE!
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I am clearly no one from nowhere.
Click here to take yours! (http://ri.poweredbyevil.com/quiz.htm)</center></p>
Holy fast growing threads
</p>
ROFL
(Im in SCA, I know mele combat)
Dont kid yourself.
Cuthul Paindancer
Master of the Path of Pain(Rodcet Nife)
Warlords of Wrath
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" I've put up with being subpar damage wise because I was a fucking truck...now I'm just a little midget in a jeep with a pellet gun." --Sarthis</p>
Actually just realised something. If we've become pure DPS generators that tank like rogues and rangers then we need a de-agro method that doesn't kill our DPS. High damage and low (chain) defence is why rangers got jolt. Aren't we going to be in the same situation now?
Shinrai, Monk of the Lost Circle.
A proud member of Southern Armada
</p>
Never said clerics tank better than melee, What I did say is in xp groups they can take hits well enough to tank with another cleric healing them.
Pretty much if you are xp'ing and it's a major drain on your cleric to heal you per mob then you are fighting somewhere too hard.
There isn't anyplace I tank for xp, that any other well equipped melee member of my guild could not also tank with both of us being healed by a cleric.
Rogues, Rangers both tank just fine in normal xp groups.
Shoot I also play a cleric and when the shaman aggro's unreasonably and cannot get the mob off him he tanks the mob for the entire fight in cazic thule or ssra and so I have to say if a shaman can tank it, anything a shaman in my guild can tank, EVERY other melee class in my guild can tank it better.
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21023 </p>
I hate the new changes, just when I returned to EQ and was enjoying the hell out of playing a monk. I don't mind grouping but I want to be able to solo too.
To the morons who've been posting on this board saying this somehow balances the game, you'll be next because the same argument Verant is using to nerf monks can be used for your classes:
Melees: They never should outdamage a monk in verants vision, but a warrior with Ubber gear will outdamage a poor monk. Oh wait, a SK gets Harm Touch, DOTS, a Pet too. Way, way too much when you add equipment being farmed off and twinked to low level plate-wearing classes. Their offensive capabilities need to be downgraded so that a non-twinked monk can always outdamage them.
Druids: Most melees (of the same level) can't solo and tank a Hill Giant, but you'll see arsehole druids trying to quad kite them around (and often getting people killed). Is this unbalanced? Oh yeah, quadding is part of Verant's "vision". Druids get ports, sow, heals (increasing to what 75% complete heal in the new patch), damage shields, dots, and can burn second to a wizard.
If you don't cancel your account (like someone said, it just stops the billing cycle) write a letter and tell Verant what's what. Verant wasn't specific on the details. With enough screaming they'll back off.
</p>
Well. Damned.
I don't know if this will really affect the ability to pull for high end encounters, seeing as how the only survivability option is to outrun your target in the first place.
Solo wise; expect VI to dork us around. Is it bad? Depends on your style of play.
At the end of the day, FD and let the fucking GAR/MS/Rogue eat it. Shit, even let the new class, 'Tanking Cleric' have a go. A++.
Fucktards. And get me some ass creme so I can wipe up the mess your nerf stick created.
<center><img src=http://home.earthlink.net/~solkeiter/ThisIsSuperchangsSig.JPG></center><center><font face=New Times Roman>Superchang of Mith Marr</font></center><center><A HREF=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=291260><font color=blue>Gear<A></font></center>
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Swiftfisted
10-09-2002, 01:12 AM
erm if this affects my soloing at 54, theres no possible way I'll ever get to 60. Guess its time to start working my rogue again, monks just got alot less fun for me.
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</p>
I am in wait and see mode for now. Once this change goes live, I will log in my 60 monk and attempt to solo a spider in Velks. If I am unable to solo that spider, I will probably never log on my monk again except to go to bazaar and sell all his gear.
Falconfist Flyingfury
</p>
Just so you all know, I'm rapidly coming close to 3 years in EQ, and my main is monk (level 50 - I have a lot of /played, but I enjoy running around Norrath and poking into odd corners) who is also the first character I made after starting. I've seen the monk class as a whole change from the premiere pulling class (when it wasn't in the "Vision") to becoming, well, this...
After reading this, ahem, notice and after calming down for an hour I came to a conclusion. I really think Vearnt has too much on their plates right now, because this is very ill-conceived. Unless, of course, there is something in PoP that more than makes up for this.
Think about it: they suddenly totally change direction in how they want monks placed into groups, not by changing monk-equipable equipment - which would be far, far more time intensive than what they are doing - but by changing the way the class works as a whole. I could be very wrong, but thats what it seems to be at first blush.
We have had, and I agree with this, a lot of attention placed on our defense. Thats where we've been pegged for a few years now and the AA skills have only reinforced this. It really is not fair to players to suddenly change direction like that after such a long time, but sometimes it must be done. I personally don't mind being pegged as a defensive class, but I like a good ass-kicking as much as the next (as long as its not mine). I have tuned so I do damage, and a lot of it, to whatever I fight. (I don't pull much, but when I do I'm mostly ok.) I can't solo dark blues, but I'm sure if I tuned defensive I could, but I really don't care to. And this is where I'm really apprehensive - If this is NOT a soft cap to AC and I get neferd to the point I HAVE to go totally defensive to survive I will probably not play anymore. Not as a threat, but as a consequece of something that robs me of the enjoyment of the little flexability our class has.
Verant has done much better in the retunes of the game lately, as well as the added content. However, botching things up is a thing they do VERY well. We had to beg and whine and finally have some of our number go over the code with Verant almost line-by-line to find why our FD wouldn't work properly in combat (remember the "Frenzy" hell we went through?) so at least this works now to control aggro. But it took far too much time to fix and shouldn't have been made in the first place to one of our defining abilities.
I personally will wait to see what happens after the patch and after PoP has come out to see if they give us something we can live with or if they just turn us into a mediocre class with no strengths to play from. But, as a warning to Verant : If I cannot play my monk I WILL NOT play EQ. I have left once and if I leave again in this fashion you will NOT have me come back. Play fair with us and we all can be happy.
Protein
Monk of the 50th path
Cazic-Thule
</p>
IF Verant does the right thing, you will see:
mobs with less hitpoints => kills the 30 minute fights
mobs fights that require Crowd control => enchanters and other classes more useful, less stress on single pulling.
mobs that will deal damage to all raiders => making druids, shamans necessary
I can't say for sure, but monks SHOULD avoid melee attacks more than usual, but they should take more damage if they get hit, because it doesn't make sense to get hit the same of you're wearing leather and the warrior is wearing plate.
</p>
Goat Frenesi
10-09-2002, 01:15 AM
/sigh, it all boils down to:
What the customer wants vs. the integrity of the game.
Some people don't get what they want, they leave, /shrug. VI doesn't want the game broken, so they fix it, regardless of the guantlet of assbeating they'll recieve. Kudos to them, yet again.
Oh well, I still have my ubah~ Gnomish Environmental Suit banked I think.
<table><tr><td><center><font face="Arial" size="1">Goatiana Ebonhoof (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=276165), Savage Lady of Hate
Kambing the Disciple (Retired)
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WuChild
10-09-2002, 01:15 AM
Listen to me now VI: I want my defensive AA points reset
Listen to me now VI: I want my defensive AA points reset
Listen to me now VI: I want my defensive AA points reset
Listen to me now VI: I want my defensive AA points reset
Listen to me now VI: I want my defensive AA points reset
Listen to me now VI: I want my defensive AA points reset
<a href=http://www.silentresurgence.org>http://www.silentresurgence.org/members/maui/maui.jpg
</p>
I played a warrior for over a year. Got 60. Got epic. Hated EVERY MOMENT of LFG.
I quit for a while. Came back. Said, "I'm going to have fun this time..."
Made a monk. Levelled up. Got to 53. Solo.
I don't have time for LFG all day. Monks are a dime a dozen. Good luck finding a group in the 4-5 hours per week that I play.
I still like EQ. I was hoping to get to 60 as a monk.
Now... as a monk, I will be even less desirable in a group. Less able to solo. Less able to have fun, playing the game the way I want to play it. No, don't tell me how to play a game. And any of you who try, fuck you.
No, I'm not a power gamer. No, I'm not a twink. No, I'm not in a guild. No, I have NEVER TANKED ANY ENCOUNTER WITH ANY GROUP OF PEOPLE. I tank alone. I also heal alone. I pull alone. I scout alone.
I play a MMORPG all by myself. I see everyone as an NPC. Interactive NPC's mind you, but NPC's none the less. I stay out of other people's ways. I avoid most popular dungeons and search for nice quiet solo spots. I have to pay for every port I get, every rez I need. I never hurt, harm, cause any ill will, or spread any amount of unhapiness to anyone.
I chose a human monk to do this. I chose the god of tranquility. I chose to live the "Kung Fu" lifestyle, minus the acid trips.
Now, it looks like I will have to either learn to live with even less rewards for my time spent, or maybe play a new class. Hell, maybe cancelling my account is the wisest thing to do.
I'm proud of all you people that have cancelled your accounts already. If a few thousand people do it, I'd be willing to bet that there will be a "delay" in implementing their changes. The pocketbook is the only place to speak your mind, when it comes to a company and their practices.
Good luck Verant. Games don't last forever, especially ones that alienate any portion of their customer-base.
Rylen - 53 Monk
Tholuxe Paells
My junk (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=285199)</p>
You guys seriously need to stop bitching..you knew it was coming, they either had to buff warriors or nerf monks, and unfortunetely they nerfed monks. But all the posts like "4 accounts cancelled" is BS, you act as if they just took 75% of monks hp or something. Deal with it. Stop whining. Its about time you felt the nerf bat.
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/uhaldainas.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Haldainas</A> at: 10/8/02 9:19:17 pm
Yuffie RZ
10-09-2002, 01:19 AM
You know someone's going to go postal on Verant if this change goes live.
Seriously someone's gonna get hurt by this change. I don't mean in the game.
-Yuffie
[Fri Mar 29 14:47:36 2002] You kick sebilite juggernaut for 268 points of damage.
[Fri Apr 05 21:36:52 2002] You kick Xenevorash for 44 points of damage.
[Fri Apr 05 21:36:52 2002] You have slain Xenevorash!</p>
How can anyone with the common sense of a chimp deny that monks were tanking too well compared to knights and warriors? Personally, I think that they should have just upgraded warriors and knights and instituted a small change to monk defense.
Of course, it's hard to tell what the effects will be until the patch. Perhaps it will only really effect those uber monks with 1300 AC who can outtank warriors on raid mobs.
</p>
Sciurus
10-09-2002, 01:21 AM
go back to your hole silly war, this hurts you too. Whos gonna pull for ya .... you silly silly people that commmend this nerf ... it makes it harder on you too.
Tannah (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=15480)
57 Unconquered (http://www.monkly-business.com>Monk</A>)
Drinal
Post counts dont matter! (post count +1 yay!!!!)
</p>
Uglukson
10-09-2002, 01:21 AM
Why would 2 expansions worth of fights need to be re-tuned? Because modrod2 enabled smaller guilds to tackle the big stuff in both velious and luclin without the need for overwhelming numbers they did not possess. Take the rods away, they need more people to perform what they used to be able to do. If they are true to their word, the higher-end velious encounters will need retuning. However, I reckon they'll be left untouched, and returned to the pre-luclin status of being done by large guilds only. The guilds who were doing it before will have to recruit or merge. The guilds who have the numbers to do it old-school style, so-to-speak, have gear that is mostly better anyway.
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> rogues and rangers with am3 outdmg monks.<hr></blockquote>
Erm, hello. Rogues are INTENDED to outdamage monks.
Rangers with AM3 *can* outdamage monks, for 2 out of every 68 minutes, assuming nobody blocks their way, the mob is on a slope, the mob touches a wall, Venus is approaching its apex, etc etc etc.
You're trying to nerf a skill that is bugged to the point that many rangers don't even bother with archery. You don't believe me? Check forums.interealms.com/ranger (http://forums.interealms.com/ranger) for proof.
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Proud member of Wreckers (http://www.eqwreckers.com), Tholuxe Paells</font>
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Haldainas is right, but the warrior wasn't desirable because he had no special qualities that was really needed. Besides high end encounters, you could pretty much use a hybrid to do the duties of a warrior.
If they want to fix warriors, they should fix taunt like it should be and give them some sort of melee ability that few classes could share. Warriors as they are now rely on equipment and not abilities, they need to fix that. I really don't know what the warrior vision is, so I can't really comment how they need a fix.
</p>
"#2 - You are a monk. You are a martial artist. How many of you know anything about martial arts? While I was never in martial arts, my borther was. I have also seen enough martial art matchs (From white to black belt stuff) to say this. Most of martial arts is about deflecting, reversing, and, blocking the blow. It is not about soaking a blow. Any martial artist who takes all the hits an enemy gives and counts on his/her own blows to win the fight, will fail. Thats what fighters (warriors) do. Monks should be about the quick damage. They should be-able to avoid taking damage until the tanks can taunt off not be a tank themselves."
Martial Artists also Parry to help out while in combat... why arent you forming a petition to have Parry added to our list of skills? Martial Artists also learn how to "roll with a punch" so to speak... to lessen the damage taken from any blow with the exception of a pierce attack. Perhaps when you write your petition about Parry, you can include the rolling with punches bit and have them decrease the amount of damage we take from hits... oh wait, they are nerfing that to take more right as we speak... oops. Martial Artists also use broadswords, polearms, knives, bows, all the things the other classes in EQ use... but once again, I dont see you commenting on those items when you compare the EQ monk to a RL Martial Artist.
"#3 - Being a member of the SCA, I have trained in sword and sheild combat since I was 6. When I first picked up a sword, the weight was over-welming. Over time and with enough practice, I can now weild a 2-handed bastard sword with ease while wearing full chain armor. Yes, the stuff is heavy, but train enough, and you learn to adapt with the weight and wonder how it ever bothered you before. So stop saying that plate classes should get haste negs and such."
Wow, guess what, I too have watched these matches, lets be realistic, they are matches, not all out combat. And guess what, people get tired FAST. Even the veterans do. The weight isnt the problem with the armor, its the limitations of it. You cant do all the maneuvers that you can in leather. Chainmail is even more limited than plate mail. Most people at the SCA fights are wearing leather and padded armors because of the movement restrictions. They wear plate type helms due to the blows and danger to the head. A handful use metalic armors in various places, but no one comes out in full chain mail or platemail and suffers no consequences like you are trying to say. Ive watched other events where people wear platemail and those that do for any long amount of time are suffering big time... the heat is insane. It causes them to become tired and does affect thier performances.
"#6 - Monks have options. You get FD, Sneak, Mend, Instill Doubt, etc. Warriors do not. Stop bitching about what you lost, and focus on what you still have."
You are right here, I know just before a big fight, everyone tells me to use Sneak, Instill Doubt, Disarm, Kick, Round Kick, Eagle Claw, and Dragon Punch or the fight will fail. I know I would also trade sneak, instill doubt, disarm, kick, round kick, eagle claw and dragon punch for taunt. I would also trade them for my flying kick to be able to stun like a warrior does. But what am I thinking, warriors have it so rough and they suck by your implications.
Perhaps your post should have read:
#1. Verant please fix the warrior class by fixing its existing skills, not by nerfing other classes.
That would be better received around here.
</p>
Mrisda
10-09-2002, 01:25 AM
These changes DID need to happen. It's unfortunate that they had to happen because of Verant's short-sightedness, though.
They said we were offensive...OK, cool! I like doing damage!
They buffed up our defensive....ummm, what's going on?
They gave us AA points almost EXCLUSIVELY for defense....ok, I guess we're more a defensive class than offensive now.
They nerf our defense....um, ok, now what the fuck do I do?
The changes were made, and they WOULD have been good changes if Verant would remove their heads form their asses and notice that the reason they needed to change monks was because THEY COULDN'T DECIDE WHETHER WE WERE DEFENSIVE OR OFFENSIVE!!
Oh, well. I'm still gonna play. I have a decent reputation on my server, i can find groups. Anyone quitting on Tarrew Marr, I'll give your stuff a decent home. Just let me know <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> (I'm half kidding, but seriously, i WILL take your stuff)
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Its about time you felt the nerf bat. <hr></blockquote>
Do some reading before you post this garbage.
Kunark made monks the red headed stepchild of Verant.
Even verant recognizes this, and they joke about it..
Often called the nerf stick, and originally useable by monks and necromancers, the two classes to get "nerfed" the most in their power from original everquest to velious:
Abashi's Rod of Disempowerment
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: PRIMARY
Skill: 2H Blunt Atk Delay: 30
DMG: 40
STR: +15 DEX: +15 STA: +15 INT: +15
AGI: +15 HP: +100 MANA: +50 SV FIRE: +15
SV DISEASE: +15 SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +15 SV POISON: +15
Effect: Abolish Enchantment (Casting Time: 3.0)
WT: 2.5 Size: TINY
Class: MNK NEC
Race: ALL
Dainin (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=696)
Human Grandmaster
Servant of Quellious
Shadowed Soul (http://www.shadowedsoul.com)
http://www.shadowedsoul.com/screenshots/Members/Dainin/pull.JPG
</a> </p>
Monk's should get higher caps in avoidance skills to offset this defensive nerf. Also since we hone our bodies to perfection and are limited to "leather" type gear I would like to see monk only skill run5 (just above sow speed). Monks should still be able to tank in exp group situations though because its not always possible to find a balanced group. I have never heard of a monk tanking a raid lvl mob. CH did break the game and it's nice to see them rebalancing it and highend encounters. Manaburn needed this nerf it was only getting worse everyday with Wizards ganking raid mobs. It would have only gotten worse as time went on.
Kokuei Akujin
</p>
Cybsled
10-09-2002, 01:31 AM
Alone this wouldnt be a HUGE deal, but its part of a larger dark picture.
First of all, utility. Monks have NO utility except pulling really, which is frequently frowned on by VI and even players. There is also nothing planned (yet) in POP that gives monks any utility.
Now what if in POP they completely irradicated FD pulling.
What does that leave us?
A) We do good damage, but we do less then a rogue and around the same as a ranger (sometimes less, depending on the encounter
B) Our defensive capacity has been reduced. Our avoidance has NOT been boosted on a class level.
So you have a class with NO utility that does decent damage and thats about it.
This is EXACTLY the kind of crap VI needs to address. Our only contribution besides adding some DPS to a raid is something that, for all intensive purposes, is a game exploit.
I have no problem with VI wanting to reduce our mitigation. But we need to be changed in other areas, for the better, to make this ok.
Why not take a page from AD&D? Monks in that game are perfect shock troops vs. spell users/magic fights.
They A) Have awesome resistances/escapes from magic B) they avoid damage as their primary defense C) they do quick multiple hit damage rounds
If you plan on making us less "Warrior like", then make us more monk like.
</p>
Yuegou has a point, the way to tune monks is to make them stronger in avoidance, but their weakness should be when they take blows, it should be more than that of a warrior, who has protection from plate. As to whether defensive skills define your class, I tend to not agree and they should have been nerfed.
</p>
The problem with this patch is the lack of vision by the Developers on what a monk should be. My vision of a monk is as follows:
1) Mitigation Ability - A monks ability to mitigate damage should be minimal. Better than any caster (save hybrids) and better than beastlords (not by much though.)
2) Avoidance - A monks ability to avoid damage should be supreme, no other class should avoid damage as good as us. In fact, it should be to the point that certain mobs (primarily the ones where the avoidance discipline is better than defensive discipline) should not only be main agroer of but the other players of the game should want them too.
3) Damage - Currently, we are about proper damage wise, Rogues and Rangers doing more damage than us is fine, we should remain superior than other melee classes however.
4) Pulling - I have two opinions on this, the first is, pulling should not exist. Using FD to pull makes little sense using any realism at all. However, the game is too intrinsically tied to pulling that it must stay. Makes us slightly better than Shadowknights, but only slightly.
My insights on how to accomplish these goals are:
1.) Mitigation - The upcoming patch will seemingly solve this issue. I expect they will have to retune it and its a shame that because of verant's inability to control mudinflation of all/all items in the high-end game this nerf would eventually have to occur.
2.) Avoidance - Add parry, up our skill caps, make ALL our unequipped AC avoidance AC and go tune from there. This is something that I also think HAS to occur.
3.) Damage - I would prefer going back to using just my fists, some Class aaxp that lowers our delay and another that ups are damage and then a New epic that stacks with this aaxp change (old should too btw, but new epic + class aaxp ability should = end game pop weapon ratios. If it doesnt upset our damage powers above rangers/rogues, give our dual wield 100% chance just without a damage bonus.
4. Pulling - Give us a aaxp class skill that allows us to remain feigned when a spell hits at 5%, 10%, 20% and fix some of the minor FD bugs and we are fine.
Ultimately, the problem with this patch is it does nothing to address the real balance of this game, nerfing a class for something that it has been made into since velious without the proper boosts that it should of gotten instead is short-sighted. I do give props to Verant for having the guts to institute major changes but I give them huge cons for once again, showing almost no ability to grasp a large picture/vision of what this game should be. They are very good at realizing problems, they almost always address them (recently) but they still lack vision something that is killing this game.
Swiftsoul
59 Iksar Monk
Quellious - Champions in Arms
</p>
Horza I buff out over 1400 ac on raids and I don't tank stuff on raids bigger than rhag 1 if the warrior dies when i'm there with 8 people. All this monks tanking better than warriors and replacing them on raids is a phantasy started by furor in hopes of getting warriors buffed.
Situationally could I tank better than a warrior, maybe, do I EVER replace one on a raid? No, never have.
Having never encountered the mythical 'MONK MAIN TANK' on an uber raid I don't see warriors having lost their job.
Do I replace a warrior in a group? Yeah at times, 6 people fit in a group, most groups don't have a warrior.
I buff up to about 5600 hp on raids, much less in xp groups.
Warriors I do group with are about 6800 hp.
So obviously anything the warrior can tank where 1 ch will heal him every 30 seconds, healing 5800 hp, I can tank where the cleric casts ever 20-something seconds healing 4khp. That doesn't make me a better tank, and let me clue you in avoidance is nice but when you miss the roll and the mobs hits you anyway the 1300-2000 more hp a warrior has matters a lot.
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21023 </p>
I guess from reading all these posts it does make sense, but I would like to see:
Us getting more agi and dex, we are in leather, which means we should be able to dodge better and avoid attacks then being in heavy plate.
Also a innate haste or some meelee DPS improvment for us, not huge but little. mabye make our kick more points or add some AA for H2H mastery.
http://www.homestead.com/~site/animations/Icons/animations/smiley_face1__roaringA.gif Xanizos Dragonfist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=85953) http://www.homestead.com/~site/animations/Icons/animations/smiley_face__grinA.gif</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Erm, hello. Rogues are INTENDED to outdamage monks.
<hr></blockquote>
That was when Monks tanked better than Rogues... If Rogues tank better than Monks the roles reverse... not really that hard to grasp.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Rangers with AM3 *can* outdamage monks, for 2 out of every 68 minutes, assuming nobody blocks their way, the mob is on a slope, the mob touches a wall, Venus is approaching its apex, etc etc etc.
<hr></blockquote>
If the change goes live, and Monks are mitigating like a leather class (which they have never ever done), then no melee has an arguement for doing more damage than Monks under any circumstance. Not Backstab, not Archery.
If Rangers are tanking better and have spells, they have ZERO argument for doing more dmage... ever.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
You're trying to nerf a skill that is bugged to the point that many rangers don't even bother with archery. You don't believe me? Check forums.interealms.com/ranger for proof.
<hr></blockquote>
If it's so crap you wont mind it being nerfed.
<hr />
<div>
Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=266873), Iksar Monk of Xev.
</div>
<div>
Dubious member of Hawkestone (http://pub72.ezboard.com/bhawkestone).
</div>
<div>
"I stare, it stares back.
I long to know its feelings.
It demurs. Lunch, then."
</div></p>
im not sure about you, but there are damn alot more 60 war on my server than monks
dont VI understand, the less of a character is playing, there is something wrong, people make and twink monks sure, but they loose interest fast, only the most persistent stick to monks, and you can tell by 50+ numbers.
People 'like' monks, but don't envy them
nerf wizards, fair enough because people envy them, and get angry
but when the monk is happy, because we are a good class, and everyone else is happy because we pull and dont die THAT Much, then what is the problem?
VI, nerfing is never the way to go, why not just stick by your word.
</p>
Shaman here with a monk, tossing in my 2 cents.
If this change does indeed lower a monks ability to take damage, it is not a good thing. As it is, monks get the hell beat out of them. I have yet to see a monk tank better than a warrior of comparable level and equipment.
Anyone can tank with enough heals thrown at them. If this was meant to raise the value of warriors, it was pointless. I think we can all agree that warriors have been left out of any decent upgrades lately. Rather than lower monk abilities, they should raise the warriors slightly. With few exceptions for monks and rogues in uber super high end gear, warriors are superior in taking damage. That is what they do.
As far as the other nerfs, MB was probably a good thing if a bit late in the game. At least they offered the wizzies their points back. Unfortunately, enough of the wizard class used the ability for greed to make the benefits unimportant.
The rod change is horrible. Raids live and die by the rods, and mages having to target every single person to hand them a rod they can use once a minute is just insane.
I read the original post from EQLive and they stated they want people to focus more on tactics, not throwing a bunch of people at a mob and having endless mana, etc. Well, people adapt to what is necessary to win fights. Even with rods, the mana is not endless... it just enables us to possibly manage to fight a mob THEY put intothe game for 30 mins. If they bothered to play the game they are screwing with, they might not see this as a solution to Mages usefulness. Sure, they upgraded pets, but how many high level raids can you even USE them?
Perfect example is the Ring of Thule. Pets wander off constantly, no matter how many times you park them and have them relax. Then they aggro the NPC there when she heals and regens mana when you hand her something. Kills the NPC because no one noticed in the ruckus (understandable) until it was too late. How many times have you all seen pet classes told to ditch pets or be denied them even after the improvements in pet aggro and management?
No, my friends, the change in Mod Rods will be a bad thing, and likely the monk nerf will be too. Another thing to remember when they do stuff on this scale, is bards will be broken even further, and we will have all sorts of stacking issues AGAIN. Happens everytime. The best course is to wait and see of course, but the way the announcement was worded, I have a bad feeling.
</p>
Granted I may not be the best at playing the monk class, but the issue is, -i've played every other class in the game, and monk is the only class I actually enjoy playing- my 'main' as it may be is a druid, which is now happily sitting collecting dust at 52 because I havent enjoyed playing the class since I got sow. heh. I don't group often, because my pulling skills are adequite at best. I don't play the class because they can pull, or they can tank.. or because they have decient dps. I play it because I enjoy doing so. because it wasnt neccissary to spend 2 hours /lfg to get some exp,or killing one mob then having to sit around for 10 minutes waiting on mana. If the need arose, or I just felt like beating on something, granted with some risk, I could. If this change does indeed go live, which I have a feeling it wont, due to how many voices have been upraised about it already, its going to deprive myself, and many others of the one basic fundimental of these things we call games -the fun-. Getting exp is hard enough as it is as a monk, its even more difficult playing an iksar because of the exp penalty we have. ( actually I shouldnt say getting exp is hard, I should say KEEPING the exp is hard ) and to be spending more time retrieving your corpse and or waiting for a mob to forget you exist, or waiting for mend to pop or running back to town yet again FOR MOR BANDAIDS because your armor has basicly been swapped out for paper mache with holes punched in it.. where's the fun? part of the fun of any game is advancement, and how the hell can you advance when 75% of the time you spend online is either zoning, or waiting, or seeing the dreaded You have been slain by a_moss_snake01! ( because verant decided you shouldnt be able to take hits better then your common druid who gets over 170 spells to make up for their lack of ac and keeps them from even GETTING HIT in most circumstances )
I'm sorry, but I can't turn around and /auction for Aego or BoA before I decide to go fight anywhere. Can't afford it, and there are better things I want to be doing then sitting around an overly laggy zone begging someone for a buff -just so I can survive- its bad enough I go through 80pp / 120pp a day on sow potions and another 30 - 70pp on ports just to get from point a to point b quicker. let alone 50 - 100pp every three hours i'm online for a hp / ac buff.
monks are supposed to be the pinacle of physical combat, no? hence the whole 'less is more' apsect of the weight restriction and everything right? 99.999% of the monks out there can't afford a fungi tunic, let alone ever be able to GET the camp for the fungi tunic due to the 'i'mgonnacampthisspotandpassthedroptomymuletosells oicangetrichquick' mentality of most people out there, and sure, there's the psc as well, right? sure. my monk with his current gear and his two bags ( ee bag and herbalist ) with one stack of food / water the ever present sow potion, and 12 stacks of bandaids = 18lbs. current chest piece weighs. 0.7, psc weighs what? 5.0? thus the ac difference in my current chess piece, and the psc is rendered nul to the weight penalty. so basicly, verant is telling us to bend over, grin and 'bare' it, and taking something away thats been in effect for how long? without any trade off in return? where's the logic in this? were we THAT much more effective then other classes? and if so, why is it that I personally havent noticed it? the times I do group its with a close knit group of individuals all aprox. the same level as me, an sk, a ranger and a warrior. my average dps in comparison the the ranger and the warrior is about 10 - 15 points less, and about equil with the sk ( not counting in proc's and spells ) my ac is 100 points lower then the ranger, about the same with the sk and almost 250 less then the warrior. the few brief times I do manage to get agro ( usually due to my wu chain procing ) if I don't feign it off or have it taunted off I become a scaley smear on the landscape within a matter of seconds.. and yet they want to drop our ac MORE? grr. seems to me their punishing the normal players just because of those who can afford or camp 'd4 ub4h l3wtz'
<center>
http://members.aol.com/rm2kstoragei/trill.gif
http://members.aol.com/rm2kstoragei/onaga.gif
</center></p>
Monk pulling wouldn't be necessary if mobs could be crowd controlled. It just made it more desirable to single pull with a monk with their FD ability.
Give a cookie to those smart monks asking for move avoidance and less mitigation.
</p>
umm how did paladins and Sks pay a huge price in damage when they have items like the massive dragon claw 28/30 1h with a bash that does over 100+ dmg. Plus heal/ Dot spells?????
</p>
lets see...
I have a,
Level 51 Cleric.....CH Nerfed!
Level 57 Magician.....Mod Rod 2 nerfed!
Level 60 Monk.....Defense nerfed!
way to go VI!
I got my monk to level 60 less than a week ago.
I am just starting to do the AAxp grind and get all the cool things i hear about.
Now, I turn my computer on, check these boards and see this!
Thanks VI, i lost all desire to play EQ tonight.
Good job!
Perhaps tomorrow will be better, but i seriously doubt it.
...maybe there's a good movie on HBO!
</p>
28/30 in 1h means nothing when your weapon skills cap at 225 and you lack dual wield. Not to mention bash is not consistently 100, it seems to be more like 5-120 (tends to go lower more).
-Gruffy
</p>
You expected to solo with a monk? This is a game that involves other people, that's how the game should have been from the beginning.
</p>
Eww I feel horrible for the magicians also.
They now have TARGET people ONE by ONE to cast mod rods at them every minute.
For crying out loud if the rods are only useable once a minute let them be droppable so the poor sob's do not have to type
/Target Player A
/Target Player B
/Target Player C
/Target Player D
/Target Player E
/Target Player F
/Target Player G
/Target Player H
/Target Player I
/Target Player J
Casting Rod after each one and they rotating to start again
As if dropping them wasn't bad enough now they are going to make them carpal tunnel typists
Sensei Belthos DeLint
The Defiant
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21023 </p>
Well I will post my 2cp
I think they did right with decrese on Monk's mitgation but I also think they need make Monk somewhat better at dmg otherwise just take rogue..why monk?
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