Rangers tank better than monks now. VI take note please!

From what I read VI nerfed monk mitigation to bring their overall damage taking capability in line with the chain classes... they take more hits but avoid better.. and supposed to overall be the same.



VI has failed to achieve this stated goal.



Myself (ranger 60) and guildmate monk 60 were doing Umbral Plains... disturbed elysian remains. them mobs are ~15k hp and lvl 54ish.. hit up to 190ish max.



Guild monk is high 1100's AC and my ranger is low 1100's AC. I had about 300 more hp than him. I tanked much better... my average hit taken was about 100. monks average hit he told me was around 185... It was very noticeable how much longer I could tank before needing a CH vs him.



Obviously VI needs to up monk avoidance or increase mitigation... I had 300 more hp than him.. he had 50 more AC than me...



Once again, VI you've gone a lil too far in the nerf... hope that this gets looked at and adjusted to help my monk brothers out.





-Araden, warder

-Kenek, master

-Teladin, templar



Sphere of Honor

Brell Serilis


</p>

[Norpin]

Avarage hit doesn't tell me a lot without also knowing how often each of you got hit.



I'm glad you want to help monks but we really can't get a lot out of the numbers you posted other than than you mitigating hit better.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=nor pin>Norpin</A> at: 10/26/02 9:05:57 am

Was the monk CHAIN SITTING or level 1? ;P


</p>

Actually he did say that he could tank much longer than the monk before needing a heal. That's what is important, not max hit, average hit or anything else since they were of similar level and stats. Many people get too caught up in the stats and forget this is a game that is supposed to be fun. The only thing he could have added was how much longer he could tank.



Simple truth, in most situations, monks are now dying faster that the other pure melee and hybrid classes as long as they both have similar level, AA skills and equipment.



Verant's nerf has hit their stated goals. Of course, most of us feel it has destroyed our vision of the monk class and do not feel that the monk class fits into verant's stated vision as the games damage dealer. As it shands, monks are not balanced with the other classes. It doesn't take another nerf to fix this. There have been many things sugested in this forun to repair the damage to the balance. My favorites are: allow us to use all of our avoidance from the rear, give us situational damage capability similar to rogues and rangers (ie crippling blows from the rear), or return things to the way they were before the patch (even if they need to nerf our new AA's, just give us some different ones.)




Clawr 54th Monk

Inspect Me (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=364988&resize=true)




Bomar 54th Druid


Clan of Unity


Karana Server


</p>

team tanked in PoN recently with a 56 monk in a small group, myself a 60ish Ranger with around 1200ish ac (we had to be smart swapping agro a lot.... since we didn t have a slower , and 300er hitters yeowtch<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> ) but it worked , cleric kept us alive, wouldn t say any of us tanked noticable better or worse than the other /shrugs


</p>

oh, and the monk and his cleric friend could duo the zone mobs<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> it looked scary as hell but he only died once out of 5 pulls or so heh; my druid wife and me couldn t (only tried once tho) even with a slow proc weapon (doesn t help when half your hp are gone in 2 combat rounds lol) ;P


</p>

[Fopoodzo]

Araden - Would be good if you could parse a bit and get some figures on relative tanking, DPS <span style="text-decoration:underline">taken</span> etc. between your ranger and monk.





It's figures like that VI needs to see. (you'd think they'd be albe to do it themselves, but time and again it's player parsing that brings these things to thier attention). <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">


</p>

i doubt they care now, custer has made a desicion and custer never reverses himself and is never wrong.


</p>

Yeah there is that whole idea that chain armor is supposed to be better than LEATHER . . . just like leather armor is supposed to be better than silk



A ranger should tank better than: a monk, a beastlord, magician, a wizard, an enchanter, a necromancer, and a rogue (mostly due to HPs).



I played a monk to 60, there is only 2 downsides to the monk class, no taunt key and a weight limit, please GET OVER IT



The lack of soloing ability hurts nobody but the run of the mill twink-retard-idiot monk that has no right running around at high levels making monks look stupid.



Now monks have 2 important roles instead of 3, I think being main puller and 2nd in melee damage is pretty good to me, heaven forbid we arent the greatest tanks also.


</p>

That's more what I was thinking.



Isn't the Ranger SUPPOSED to tank better now? Technically, chain should tank better, but even out of just a technical point of view, it would seem VI wants to move us back to a pure damage class, and Rangers are "supposed" to do less damage, and possibly tank better.



I'm not touching whether or not Rangers > Monks, whatever, we've all heard it before. Don't get near it.


[51 Disciple] Roemy (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=285468)
Endless Faith
Prexus</p>

Why should rangers tank better?



They do similar melee dps assuming they can get ahold of similar quality weapons, because their innate atk bonus makes up for their lower skill caps / damage table, or comes close to it.



On top of this, they have oodles of buffs (ghetto agi, decent str, HP/AC/regen, straight regen, DS!, DS/AC, HP/ATK, self-only HP/AC/ATK, etc...). They also have some decent DDs / DoTs, scoff if you will, but if you take into account all aspects of the game (and not just the raiding game), those add up. They also receive root/snare, and all the typical uitility spells (invis, see invis, sow, enduring breath, etc.) Top it off with healing, and you've got an extremely well-rounded casting class; I don't think anyone will dispute that.



They also have archery. Granted, this is not as important as their spells overall (imho), but it is handy in most situations and downright uber in others.



Monks have FD (huge), decent dps, sneak, safe fall, etc. Our primary self-healing ability comes in the form of bandages. We can augment many aspects of our game through right-clickies, and potions, but all-in-all I feel ranger vs. monk was pretty well-balanced PRE-nerf.



Rangers having better damage intake than us is just a slap in the face. In equivalent gear and buffs, a ranger should never out-tank any of the three pure melees; that is just my opinion, but, I think, a valid one.



Overall tanking ability (this meaning taunt, whether through spells/procs, straight dps, or the skill, and also damage intake), SHOULD, imho, break down as follows:



1) Warrior (Medium DPS, High Taunt skill, High Procs, Very Low damage intake).

2) SK/Pal (Medium-low DPS, Medium Taunt skill, Very High Procs/spells, Low damage intake).

3) Monk (High DPS, no Taunt skill, Medium Procs, Medium damage intake).

4) Rogue (Very High DPS from back, Medium-High DPS from front, no Taunt skill, Medium procs, Medium damage intake).

5) Ranger (Medium-High DPS, Low Taunt skill, Medium-High Procs/spells, Medium-High damage intake).

6) Beastlord (Low DPS, no Taunt skill, Medium Procs/spells, High damage intake).



That, imho, is the ideal tanking set-up. On a rating scale of 1-10 (10 being best), warriors should be a 10, SK/Pal a 9, monks 7.5, rogue 7, ranger 6, beastlord 5 -- when you take the whole package as outlined above into account. No matter the circumstances, all priests should rate equal/lower than a beastlord, and all casters below the priests, taking into account defensive abilities / avoidance / mitigation and ability to hold aggro.



Pre-nerf, it would seem that monk/war were tied for #1, SK/pal a close #2, ranger/rogue #3, and beastlord a *distant* #4.



Post-nerf, if monks are below rangers and rogues, that's just ridiculous. We do not do the dps to compensate for a that-much lowered defensive ability.



Of course, that's just my opinion; I could be wrong.


Slithers Sa`angreal (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=249499), 57 Iksar Monk of Prexus

Proud Member of Azure Sky (http://azuresky.droz.net)



Koidoken Seadragon, 20 Friar of Guinevere

Member of Bound By Faith (http://www.geocities.com/boundbyfaith2002/)

</p>

Fopoodzo, I'm sorry but I don't parse or anything.. not very computer literate and only use a computer to play EQ pretty much and surf the net <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">



All I can state is that It was quite noticeable that I could tank significantly longer per mob than guild monk 60.. with simliar gear / stats / aaxp



From what I've read it kind of appears that if yer AC is way over the lvl of the mob yer fighting.. then the nerf isn't affecting you.. hence all the twinked monks not having a problem in the lower lvls.. and the higher end monks with 1300+ ac apparantly not feeling the hit as much either.. but the 1100's ac mid end monk 60's are feeling it.



On a side note yes monks still have some neat abilities.. but whether you think well leather shouldn't be able to tank as well as chain.. that's not the issue..



The issue is VI said monks are tanking better than chain and we want them to tank equal to chain.. so here's the nerf... and they nerfed it harder than they intended imo.. cuz monks are tanking worse than equivalent chain.



BTW of interest maybe to some is guild bard 60 joined me and monk friend and he tanked better than either one of us.. by far. He played slow song from the getgo though but still last time that sucker tanked he didnt' tank near as good.. bard defense got raised mebbe? bard had 1200 ac but about 600 less hp. (has good ac armor but lousy hp's kinda).



Anyways, Hope VI fixes this somehow.. if they don't is gonna be a pretty rough spot for monks at that stage of the development.



I am not sure if going to continue lvling my monk 55... atm using him to park im in zlandicar's lair to keep an eye on him for guild <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p">



Araden, warder

Teladin, templar

Kenek, master



Sphere of Honor

Brell Serilis




</p>

From memory they didn't say monks would tank like a chain class. They said monks would mitigate worse but their superior avoidance skills would bring them up to the same level as the chain class. So in fact they have been true to their intent. No matter how misguided I feel it is.



Still, I give up, the vast majority of EQ players hate monks with a passion.




</p>

[Fopoodzo]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Fopoodzo, I'm sorry but I don't parse or anything.. not very computer literate and only use a computer to play EQ pretty much and surf the net



All I can state is that It was quite noticeable that I could tank significantly longer per mob than guild monk 60.. with simliar gear / stats / aaxp <hr></blockquote>



Fair enough. The recent changes have been good (and overdue) for rangers, it's just when combined with the monk nerf, it seem unbelievalbe that VI haven't taken overall melee balance into consideration and given monks something back, be it more avoidance, more damage, or some utility.




</p>

Hmmm, 18/20 fists at 65...



Mebbe VI's rebalance of the monk class right there....





-Araden, warder

-Kenek, master

-Teladin, templar



Sphere of Honor


</p>

The 18/20 fists won't matter much if we are lying on the ground 1/2 the time trying not to get agro and die. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":">


Khrent Furyfistt 54th Iksar Monk (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=2751)

Revivscence, Quellious

</p>

And 18/20 fists at level 65 don't so squat for those of us who aren't 65 and are still getting slapped around like redheaded stepchildren named Susan. And it does absolutely nothing for those of us who don't plan on buying PoP. The fists aren't rebalancing at all to us casual players.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sol ardistortion>SolarDistortion</A> at: 10/29/02 7:56:32 pm

Monks should tank better than rangers because our skills cap at 225/225/230, and theirs cap at 170 and under.



Monks should tank better than rangers because of archery, healing, sow, dots, dds, buffs, ds.



And for those of you who are reading this and havn't read general yet, 65 fists nerfed.


<span style="text-decoration:underline">De</span>ar EZ<span style="text-decoration:underline">b</span>oard,

E<span style="text-decoration:underline">Zco</span>des a<span style="text-decoration:underline">re</span> <span style="text-decoration:underline">nei</span>ther

E<span style="text-decoration:underline">Z</span> no<span style="text-decoration:underline">r</span> us<span style="text-decoration:underline">efu</span>l

W <span style="text-decoration:underline">w</span>r<span style="text-decoration:underline">i</span>t<span style="text-decoration:underline">e</span> more l8r.

Plz f<span style="text-decoration:underline">i</span>x. Thx.



<span style="font-size:xx-small;">he;lp i got lost in my eztags.</span>

</p>

[Fopoodzo]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Hmmm, 18/20 fists at 65...



Mebbe VI's rebalance of the monk class right there....<hr></blockquote>





Well (barring the valid points above) you might have something there...... except:







<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Hi folks.



We're going to have to change this a bit with the next patch. We'll be reducing the power of the monk fist somewhat. It's just not going to work out as it is, it's just too good - the improvement is too dramatic over the level range and for the 'effort' required to get this 'weapon'.



Obviously we don't want to bring you more news like this, but this much of an improvement just wasn't intended.



Alan<hr></blockquote>







Looks like the 'Vision' of monks is NEITHER (subpar) tank OR (subpar) damage dealer. Wonder who got monks nerfed this time, and I'm at a loss as to see WHAT role VI envisions for monks.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fop oodzo@monklybusiness43508>Fopoodzo</A> at: 10/29/02 11:37:51 pm

Thought I should post since Araden is talking about me. I'm the monk that he was comparing to. Well, we also did some more tests later on tonight that shows bards in comparable gear tank better than myself, as well as a level 58 ranger with just barely over 1000 AC and about 3500hp fully buffed. Now, the tests were done in Plane of Innovation, and things hit there for maximums of around 250-300. Tests were done raid-style buffed: Aego, FoS, Stamina, Shissar for extra agility. With all that my AC was at 1205, and HP at 4600 even. (ranger, as I said.. maybe around 1050, and 3500-3600HP) .. We did slowed, and unslowed mobs. Now, while I would love to have logged this I did it for personal info: Basically... 3-5 heals on unslowed mobs for myself, vs. the 1 heal for the ranger. On slowed it was 1 heal for me, and none at all for the ranger ending on average with 60% hp left. I'll parse it out in the nights to come


</p>

[Fopoodzo]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Well, we also did some more tests later on tonight that shows bards in comparable gear tank better than myself, as well as a level 58 ranger with just barely over 1000 AC and about 3500hp fully buffed.<hr></blockquote>





<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">


</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>

Now, the tests were done in Plane of Innovation, and things hit there for maximums of around 250-300. Tests were done raid-style buffed: Aego, FoS, Stamina, Shissar for extra agility. With all that my AC was at 1205, and HP at 4600 even. (ranger, as I said.. maybe around 1050, and 3500-3600HP) .. We did slowed, and unslowed mobs. Now, while I would love to have logged this I did it for personal info: Basically... 3-5 heals on unslowed mobs for myself, vs. the 1 heal for the ranger. On slowed it was 1 heal for me, and none at all for the ranger ending on average with 60% hp left. I'll parse it out in the nights to com

<hr></blockquote>



You are saying that a ranger with sub-1100 AC and 3600ish HP is tanking mobs that hit for 250-300 with only 1 heal? I don't believe that for a second. My 53 warrior buffs to 1220ac 5600hp and he takes at least 1 cheal tanking unslowed elementals in the Hole and they don't hit for anywhere near 250-300. Either his stats are a lot better than 1100ac/3600hp or he is getting healed a lot more than once per unslowed mob.


</p>

...he's a 58 ranger and you're a 53 warrior.



I would expect that he'd take your elementals and make it look like they don't hit much at all. At 58 he'd be coming close to capping out his defensive skills, while your 53 warrior has a long ways to go.



Ever wonder why a level 60 tanks better than a level 51? Defence skills, pure and simple. AC is secondary to skills in melee power.


</p>

/sob Monks are gonna be the class people joke about now. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">



monk tanking just doesnt sound as funny as ranger tanking. its not fair.


Ellyrie Flameweaver (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=413038)

* Video Games don't cause violence.. Gengis Kahn didnt have a nintendo.</p>

[shallandra]

"Monk Down!" hotkey anyone?


</p>

Level Trained Skill Cap Until 50 Cap Above 50

1 No 1 Hand Blunt 200 250



1 No 1 Hand Slashing 200 250



1 No 2 Hand Blunt 200 250



1 No 2 Hand Slashing 200 250



1 No Archery 240 240



1 No Bind Wound 150 200



1 No Defense 200 200



1 No Hand to Hand 100 100



1 No Offense 210 252



1 No Piercing 200 240



1 Yes Taunt 150 150



1 No Throwing 113 113



5 Yes Kick 149 205



8 Yes Dodge 137 170



17 Yes Dual Wield 210 245



18 Yes Parry 185 220



20 Yes Double Attack 200 245



35 Yes Disarm 55 55



35 Yes Riposte 150 150




</p>

Sorry I was gonna clean that up a bit, since it kinda got scrambled in the copy and paste. But there's no edit <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">


</p>

Was tanking in Velks today. At one point a level 45 statue added to my spider, had a 55 and 45 warrior with me. It took 2 Complete heals to kil those mobs (I was at 2800hps).. I felt like a pure caster.. really patheric.





It wouldnt be so bad if I ould at leastimprove my gear, but there is simply nothing I can buy thats worth the plat difference.. major holes in the monk gear progression.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kaw aitanuki>Kawai Tanuki</A> at: 11/8/02 7:51:03 pm

. . . your ranger skills that you copy/pasted are out of date.



Last night, my recently dinged 55 ranger got a skillup to 210 defense. 240 is the cap at 60 now, I believe. Also, he got riposte skillups as well. I forget what (I think 170) but its definately over 150 . . .



They upped the defense skill when they nerfed the ability of a monk to mitigate damage; rangers had not been very goood tanks prior to then . . .


</p>

Also consider and epic ranger will have avery nie slow..and can taunt mobs off casters extremely easily.



If I wanted a low defense damage dealer I would have made a ranger in the Kunark era.. they started to improve about the time they got sow at 30.. but instead I stuck to my pure mele in the vain hope that a pure-anything was better at they anything they were pure in..lol.


</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I stuck to my pure mele in the vain hope that a pure-anything was better <hr></blockquote>



That's the problem. I too, thought the Monk was a "pure melee" class.



We're not. At least, not in Sony's (and a lot of other players') minds. To them, we're a warrior/rogue hybrid, with none of the abilities of the parent classes.



So, as our fellow hybrids were forced to experience before us, it will likely take years of screwed up changes, LFG for hours, etc. before Sony figures out what to do to give us an identity.


<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1905>Miko Antai</a></p>

Even before the nerf, I have never tanked as good as a Warrior with similar level and gear. N.E.V.E.R.

Obviously, no NToV, ST or better stuff on me...



Tenshai, Karana.


</p>