Rogues tank better than monks

Umm... not. I am a 57 rogue and my husband is a 58 monk. We've always duo'd together, before and after the patch. He has some very nice armors that I've bought for him, CoF, Oiled Greaves, Fungi Tunic, etc; and I have some very nice armors too, currently sporting a CoF and a suit of matchless/priceless dragon armors from WW.



He has noticed since the patch that he is hit harder now, but guess what? He still tanks better than me. I get the $*$@ beat outta me anytime I try to tank, even when I wear my fungi.



Go ahead and keep crying to Verant to nerf the Rogues. If what you are saying is true and Rogues can truely tank better than Monks, then something does need to be done. However, *I* don't see it. Do rogues do more DPS? Sure, if we can get behind the mob and keep aggro off.



I started out on my rogue in May of 1999. We were a broken class. Rogues had to start backstabbing after the mob was 1/2 life or they'd get hit, with no evade. Poison didn't work, PickLocks was useless, and I remember people refusing to group with me because of the "Pickpocket nerf".



I sympathize with you guys, it sucks to play a nerfed class. But rogues have done their time, we spent a large part of the original expansion nerfed. Trying to bring new nerfs to people who can do more DPS only in certain situations is sorta silly. But good luck guys.


<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Oh no, not Justice Fruit Pies (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=16387)! The delicious fruit pie you would have to be crazy not to like.<hr></blockquote>

Rahel Teir`Rei

I R teh suk tank (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=431698)</p>

think most agree with you but the point i see time and again is monks been moved closer to rogues as tanks but not as dmg dealers which most agree is not balanced.



i for 1 would hate to see any other class get nerfed, espically as a result of monks trying to get back some sort of a role in EQ. i opposed fully the planned nerf to pallys and am glad they won out. think you may be catching monks sounding off rather then calling for nerfs to rogues


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[Norpin]

Every time I see one of those posts about rogues tanking better than monks I can't help but laugh. Next they'll be saying clerics are better tanks as they can wear plate, it's a freaking joke.


</p>

The primary difficulty for Monks post nerf is what exactly is their role ?

We probably don't tank worse than Rogues but our tank skills are still pretty poor. We don't do damage in the same way as Rogues either.

Mostly our equipment is geared to pulling and surviving a CR etc, post patch thats pretty much useless. I think its a question of finding out what exactly our role is, and what we are capable of. Rogues to be fair have a clear role and I am not knocking it. Prior to the patch I viewed both of us as useful in say a CR. Situationally one is better than the other. Post the nerf I would be lucky to survive many retrieves.



At the moment I just do not follow what our role is. We did less damage than a Rogue because in many situations we could tank better than they, post patch I do not have much of an edge on damage over a warrior, I do not have much of an edge over a rogue for tanking either.



Somewhat confused as it stands <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">


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There is a major diference between being able to take damage and being a tank. Actually a cleric can take more damage than a monk with the right gear, but it doesn't make them a better tank. Of course the same thing was true pre nerf between monks and the tanking classes, warriors, paladins and shadow knights. My son now plays a rogue that I used to play and he can tank as well or better than I can post nerf. We both have similar quality equipment.



Actually in many zones, especially in velious, my 54 druid can out tank me at level 55. If my druid didnt have to med to keep mana up, I would let him tank when I 2 box now. He has to heal himself a lot less and the mobs die faster with the monk is hitting from behind. I can kill 2 times as many mobs before running out of mana this way than letting the monk tank and having the druid stand throughout the fight. Of course neither way is efficient enough to be practicle for exp gains.



Nerfing a class to make another class better is almost never the answer. I still don't see why monks needed nerfing to balance things and I have played almost every class 50+. What I see is either class envy caused this nerf or VI wanted to give monks an incentive to buy PoP and not make them too powerfull at 65. Of course this could have been accomplished without a nerf if they had some more imagination, but we know they don't have much of that and refuse to listen to their customers in that area.




Clawr 54th Monk

Inspect Me (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=364988&resize=true)




Bomar 54th Druid


Clan of Unity


Karana Server


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key of that was fungi...put on the fungi yourself and then have him put on a PSC or something...and see who tanks better then


[bold]

-Sarthis</p>

[Fopoodzo]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>think most agree with you but the point i see time and again is monks been moved closer to rogues as tanks but not as dmg dealers which most agree is not balanced.<hr></blockquote>



Yup.




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Rogues I know with similar ac/hp/aas tank pretty much the same as I do. Head on they do the same damage as me, but do a lot more from behind. So in exp groups there is really no reason to take a monk unless you cant find any rogues for dps.



However, in raids we have a clearly defined role of pulling. I have to laugh when I see people post about how sks are so much better then monks are. SKs are broken in more ways then we could imagine, many argue that they are the worst class in the game right now(poor damage, inferior tanking compared to warriors, agro spells just got raped, etc.)


Brother Coraniz Harhar (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=16458)</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I have to laugh when I see people post about how sks are so much better then monks are.<hr></blockquote>You'd be amazed if you saw a good SK pulling. Darkness, instaclick invis, and a pet are some of the tools they have that we don't that make a lot of pulling situations very easy.


Syke (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=3700) / Stoke (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=3699), Guild <a href=http://www.phank.com>Phank</a> of Druzzil Ro</p>

Agree Syke,



Good RL Friend plays a SK and its freeking ridicilous all the tools they have to pull with. Like you said Insta Invis Snare Pet Harmshield and they FD as well. As far as damage Im starting to believe with his nukes and stuff he outdamages me between Nuke dots and his weapons. Plus now he tanks way better then me too. Its fun to be a monk right now.



So I agree WTF are we supposed to be doing with ourselves now in a riad?



Ysystzu






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damage perhaps? who ever it was that said rogues do the same amount of dmg toe to toe as a monk does, could be right only in certain circumstances...say the monk had sub par weapons, or less haste. Rogues are on the same base dmg table as warriors..monks have their own dmg table...which is greater than the warriors.



depending on what mob you fight, and what tactics you use...monks 'can' be better than rogues...mobs that one would push up against a wall, will not have a backside for a rogue to stab...POOF, there goes 30% of the rogues DPS...which turns them in to gimped warriors...



Monk/sk/necro pulling combos are just plain awsome. each class has something different to contribute. So monks are not and will never be 'worthless in a raid situation' we have awesome dps, great pulling skills, and great CR capabilites


<div style="text-align:center">

http://www.suu.edu/ad/it/nws/thomas/everquest/saniki7.jpg

Glugg/saniki, AKA rOAch

of CS and EQ</div></p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>So I agree WTF are we supposed to be doing with ourselves now in a riad?<hr></blockquote>



SKs darkness/invis is useless on most raids, FD speed is much much more important.



Then again it all depends on what type of raid you are on. For example, anyone who understands prox agro can pull NToV yard trash, but a monk is best suited to splitting the stooges.



In any case, I doubt any guild uses an sk to pull over a monk, unless you are raiding kael arena.


</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>key of that was fungi...put on the fungi yourself and then have him put on a PSC or something...and see who tanks better then <hr></blockquote>



<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I get the $*$@ beat outta me anytime I try to tank, even when I wear my fungi.<hr></blockquote>



Try reading her post next time =)


<div style="text-align:center">Anomalos Malakas - 57 Iksar Monk</div> (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=36545)<div style="text-align:center">Quant - 55 Ogre Shaman</div> (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=56948)<div style="text-align:center">Squeaky Kleen - 54 Halfling Druid</div> (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=218254)</p>

Toe to Toe, a rogue would be very outdamaged by a monk.



Toe to toe, without a back, the rogue becomes a monk without the ability to perform a high-damage special attack.


http://brockville.igs.net/~shiver/wyrmsig.JPG</p>

Of course neither way is efficient enough to be practicle for exp gains.



Guess what, soloing/2-boxing IS NOT meant to be efficient. Go get a group! XP is much faster that way if you're grouped with skilled players.



I'm a suck ass tank. Monks tank better than me with similar gear at this level. The only time I can tank, is with a really skilled healer and the mobs are 10 levels below me.



Katnips Solarius

49th Rogue on Brell


</p>

[Ugle]

Soloing/2-boxing is not meant to be efficient?



Hmm, I guess making 4+ Yellows on my 48 Shaman last night in about 3 hours grouping with my 55 Monk wasn't as efficient as it could have been, I could have got the last 2 blues I needed to ding. Depending on group make-up a two or three person group imo will make the most EXP. Have the Shammy and a Necro to compare soloing, solo EXP can be decent, but a 2-person group >>>>>> soloing if they are the right two classes. A 6 person group is only better then a 2-person group if everyone is working as hard in the full group as in the small group. Somehow when I've had a group with 6 people where the Chanter and Cleric are meleeing I don't think that's the case.



Throughout most of my 40's, if I feel like it I can make 1/2 a level a night or more if I go all-out for EXP and don't get bored. My biggest 3 characters are only L55 so I haven't seen the L59 hell, but I can tell you that up to 55 it was very rare to get as good of EXP in a group as it was 2-boxing a Monk/BL combo (and BL's suck as a support class), and now that I'm going Monk/Shammy I think that gap will increase.


</p>

Im sick of people saying "Well yeah, rogues are good n all but if you push a mob into a wall, there goes their BS!!"



What a load of shite! Cmon...



EVERY group I've been in with a rogue makes an effort to keep the mob away from the wall, and it is ALWAYS successful.



Stop using that lame reason attempting to pump up monk's usefulness.



That is all.


</p>

That is not all, go on a raid some time. Show me a guild who can do the cursed cycle without pinning mobs in a corner, facing out (no backstabs, is what that means), by all means...I will be very very impressed.



I'm really sorry but these changes aren't affecting the 40-60 crowd in dreadlands and velks. No one is really worried about if a monk or a rogue outdamages who in an xp group at that level...hell, it's dependant on weapons and funding more than anything. If a rogue got his epic at 50 and you're using your bare fists, you lose. If you've got a tstaff and he's got a couple 10/20 daggers, he loses. The game has variety and play style and options at that point which you can use to overcome your nerfs, believe me.



The point at which our class lacks definition is the endgame. Everyone's using 15/20 or much much better weapons, rogues are getting crit BS's for 1200 and more when they can use it, wizards are dropping 4k crits like there's no tomorrow, warriors pop defensive, rangers whip out a bow, mages keep up with everyone now that they're allowed to nuke, paladins group heal, SK's use +aggro spells where needed and pull quite well, I could go on...every class has a defined role, something unique, something special that sets them apart in raids.



well almost every class. Monks USED to have that roll...we were solidly between rogues and warriors for melee, we made excellent rampage tanks but never MT's due to no taunt, no EB weapons, no defensive / evasive. We really didn't step on anyone's toes, and honestly I don't think too many people were crying out for a nerf. What would you rather have pulling for your raid, a monk who lives through the pull or one who gets rezzed every 10 minutes? Thought so.



Now we lost our tanking, and while VI showed us some uber damage, they're taking that away too. Most endgame warriors are using 16/20 or better weapons, they keep up with us just fine thanks. Their str also caps out easier than ours, mostly due to large +str gear and inherant racial bonuses, and with the POP cap being well over 300, most monks aren't hitting that limit...parse away and tell me STR doesn't count, because it does. Long story short, warriors are stepping on our damage and VI doesn't see fit to immediately correct it, but when we got near their tanking we got kicked in the dick.



The real issue that has a bee up everyone's ass is that our naked fists are UBER right now, and that's a pretty nice thing to have. It also fits the original "vision" for what it's worth, any of you oldschools probably remember laughing when a warrior went around showing off his god loot (bloodfire, etc) and we still outdamaged him with our bare hands.



If we can't tank for shit, why can't we at least be guaranteed some good damage? Considering the kick we take from not using weapons, which for the well equipped monk is 300-400 HP, wouldn't it be reasonable to at least allow us to pound a mob we can't tank?



I'm beating a dead horse, sorry...the nerf is going to come, and more monks are gonna go, and nothing will change.


</p>

Read quote.. about monk fist damage.



Verant decided that monks needed an increase. They increased monks. They decided the increase was too great, so they intend to reduce it. Monks are still receiving an increase in dps (fist damage higher then previous to nerf). If people seem to think its good, then its balanced once more. If they parse it, and feel its not good.. and enough of them post intelligently rather then just bitch and complain, Verant will look at their intelligent suggestions and make changes. They may never come to this board and post a reply.



Just look at it. People have posted a monk should have damage increased, since the defense was lowered. And Verant increased the damage. So what if Verant messed up and increased the damage too much.. when they balance it again (according to what they consider balance) it is still an increase over what monks were doing hand to hand a week or three weeks ago.



If the monk community is still unhappy, Verant will look at the intelligent suggestions and implement something. They are a business. They like your money; what business does not? I don't like to see a nerf, nor does anyone I know. But it has happened, and there's not much we can do aside from actually walking away from the game. Post intelligent suggestions, backed up with facts (parse it, don't post speculations) and you will have a chance that it might be acted upon.













<FONT COLOR="FF00FF">
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[Wing Terrian]

In regards to the first post, that started this thread. Could we see the magelo for the monk husband? Seeing both side by side, might go along ways to proving a point, which ever way that point will show.



Parse logs also would be of benefit.



Wastrel da Leezurd.


</p>

[Fopoodzo]

Parses are always good.


</p>

[Zildjin]

"Show me a guild who can do the cursed cycle without pinning mobs in a corner, facing out (no backstabs, is what that means), by all means...I will be very very impressed."



Come to Cazic Thule sometime, we'll show ya. Our rogue's can backstab to their hearts content on Cursed.


Rjey (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=231623)

The Relentless (http://relentless.nwcair.com/guild/), Cazic Thule</p>

fist damage scaling with level has always been an integral part of the class. Pre-kunark they were the best weapons in the game. Post kunark they weren't even the best weapons for a monk... at any level.



The thing you have to get back to on that point is that in order to realise the upgraded fists a monk must remove their epic. Now, regardless of anything else, for most monks - that is the ones not in the top 5%, those gloves are irreplacable just on a stats basis. Nothing the non-uber monk has access to comes close. On the other hand, other classes who upgrade their epics to realise greater DPS have done just that - UPGRADED. They also have easier access to these upgrades.



If you really look into the monk gear progression as a whole with an unbiased eye, you will note that the itemization leaves a lot to be desired. There is a gap between uber and non-uber that larger than any gap in the other melee classes. That is because there is a point where the upgrades just... stop. After that, you either become uber and ascend, or you remain in relatively crappy gear compared to other melee classes - and we are talking ac/hp/combat stats/resists - the whole mango.



Keep pointing out the 60ac legs from avatar of war, and I'll just have to point to my acrylia legs, or for real laughs the pog dropped legs. The best weapon I have is an IFS, the best 1 hander I have is my epic fist. Ever wonder why monks use epic fist to 60? Cause until luclin there just wasn't anything else that wasn't uber. Its a pretty similar deal in luclin, but there are some no drop weapons that folk use - having paid insane ammounts of cash to obtain of course. Yet, other melees got upgrades... and I didn't see hoards of monks cry nerf warriors, or nerf rogues.



For all you folk saying suck it up, let me just point out that monks _have_ been sucking it up for a very long time, and did so quietly. Bitch slapping our AC was the final straw.






</p>

LOL Rjey, was just gonna say... Can't your melee balance a mob heh...



There is no reason for any mob to be put in a position where rogues can't BStab, if your melee pay attention to where they are bashing...



Heh... I feel bad for those guilds who mitigate BStab abilities... Not only are you lowering your DPS, but your also forcing your melee to take more riposte damage, and lowering all melee's DPS by making them attack from the front/side where there losing rounds of combat to parry/ripost/ etc...



But as long as a mob dies, i guess it's a valid tactic =P


</p>

How can someone say what is a monks role in the game. The monks role has always been to dish out a lot of damage and since fd pulling was discovered to pull, that has not changed in pop.



The monks role was never to tank for grps sure a ubber monk can still tank for groups ok but the average monk has to be satisfied with damage and fd pulling. Warriors paladins and shadow knight should always be better at tanking then any monk, and for a while monks were becoming better then the heavy melee.


</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Warriors paladins and shadow knight should always be better at tanking then any monk, and for a while monks were becoming better then the heavy melee.<hr></blockquote>



But is that any reason for a level 29 monk with Master Wuss' miraculous armor wielding a fighting baton and PSU to be nerfed?


</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>But is that any reason for a level 29 monk with Master Wuss' miraculous armor wielding a fighting baton and PSU to be nerfed? <hr></blockquote>

Actually.. yes.



I have not posted often (if ever) to this board and I will probably get marked as a troll.



All dungeons in Everquest have one thing in common. Somewhere.. deep inside.. there is a monk soloing. Rogue situational damage can hardly be used solo. Monks still get the uber damage from in front of the mob..and if things go sour they can feign death.



No other class in the game has the awesome power to solo dungeons as readily as the monk in Wu's and duel-wielding PSU's. Game itemization had taken away almost all of the monk's weaknesses.








</p>

White***



You are correct, rogues don't have a get out of jail free card except evade, But lets look at who does.



Monks (FD), Sks(FD, snare, fear), paladins(LOH, Root), rangers(root,Snare, Sow), druids(root sow snare gate evac), bards(snare root, mez, memwipe), enchanters (mez root mem wipe), magicians (gate, earth pet), wizards (stun, evac, gate), necros (mez, gate, FD, Pet, root, snare, fear), clerics (fear, root, memwipe), etc...



Nerf every stinking one of them by your logic because they all have get out of jail free cards, and everyone of them solos in dungeons - EVERY dungeon.



As by now you can see, there is absolutely no point in pointing to a monks FD and saying "you have FD you should be nerfed for your other abilities" others have it, and more.



Monks have 3 major weaknesses, low lps for a pure melee, the weight limit, and a low armor selection. The weight limit did not go away, and neither did the HP limit. Both of these are payment for skills, and equality to the othe pure melee classes (rogue, and warrior). Itemization has only changed the highest end monks, not the low end.








</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>All dungeons in Everquest have one thing in common. Somewhere.. deep inside.. there is a monk soloing. Rogue situational damage can hardly be used solo. Monks still get the uber damage from in front of the mob..and if things go sour they can feign death.<hr></blockquote>



First, do you have any idea how unreliable FD is at 29th?



Second, when someone makes a Rogue, they do so KNOWING they will not be soloing - the class is a group class by design.

Many, many monks chose their class because of their solo ability (for a melee anyway), which has now been arbitrarily taken away.



<blockquote>Quote:<hr>No other class in the game has the awesome power to solo dungeons as readily as the monk in Wu's and duel-wielding PSU's. Game itemization had taken away almost all of the monk's weaknesses. <hr></blockquote>



Awesome power? Please. Sure we can (or could anyway) solo those levels, but its hardly 'awesome' or anything most other classes couldn't do if they are careful. Its mostly time-consuming and slow - just less so than for most other classes at those levels.



And what happens when we ding 50? At that point monks can't solo anywhere NEAR what a quad-kiting wizzy or druid can do. Or a fear kiting Necro or SK. Or root/rotting shaman. etc etc. And this is pre-nerf.



So for a brief mid-level span Monks are OK soloers in specific situations if they are twinked. Yeah, that sounds like a good reason to nuke the class.


</p>

Well if they wanted this monk to Buy POP they screwed up.



*Cancelled one account

* Did Not buy POP.



And I will not re-activate my monk account or buy pop until they correct this issue. If they don't correct the issue I'm going to slowly switch to Diablo I think. I love the world or Norrath but I paid for the chance to play my monk. I want

my money's worth. What I have is little more than a group gimp thanks to a poorly considered nerf on damage mitigation.



Am I a wimp to quit? Nope. I am a consumer who thinks her entertainment dollar is better spent on something not so disapointing.



Katkchi


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