View Full Version : What is wrong with monks today?
I really wonder...I honestly do...the monk looses 150ac points (thats all that was changed, and i can cite that by fact from Verant's website)...so they take an extra 30 damage, and you all QUIT! WTF is really wrong with this picture? quitting over 30 Damamge?! Yea, i think so.
Many of the monks i know don't even pay attention to it because all of the 60-65 monks i know have aa's to completely counter-balance the problem or, have enough equipment that it dosnt matter...
As stated by Verant 50ac = 10damage....Monks have among the highest agility rating in the game 3agi = 1ac
Jesus!, a 60 iksar monk in full Kael, had more ac than a friend's 61 decked out warrior...what does the monk need it for? Running w/sow from point a to point b, only to fiegn and let the MA kick the living piss outta it?...
~~Not worth quitting over~~
Keamil Kindhearted
52nd Knight
Muh Sutff (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=145322)
The Web Masta
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you never did play a monkey did you?
/Sai, such a balanced monkey, that if he got any more balanced he would have trouble shifting the weight over to the other leg in order to walk...</p>
Two Reasons:
1.        This nerf reduces the over all combat effectiveness of the monk class to be inline with that of hybrids without spells.
2.        This nerf has resulted in some people having to lower the level of the mobs they solo safely by about 2-5 levels. This is a pretty bad change when you consider that the monk class is neither as specialised as the other pure melee nor as solo efficient as the hybrids in the first place.
In summary, the class that had its all round above average combat ability as its one main selling point is now being shoe-horned into a one dimensional damage-dealing role that many monk players wouldn’t have wanted to play when they invested their time and effort into their character.
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He's obviously quite young... leave it and just move on.
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Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=266873), Iksar Monk of Xev.
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Dubious member of Hawkestone (http://pub72.ezboard.com/bhawkestone).
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"I stare, it stares back.
I long to know its feelings.
It demurs. Lunch, then."
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"...nor as solo efficient as the hybrids in the first place." ?!?!
All the hybrids I know (or other straight melee for that matter) couldn't solo anywhere near as well as a comparable monk unless they were 60 with a boatload o aaxp. Especially compared to an epic monk. (beastlord excluded if you consider them in the same category).
Daishan
Grandmaster
Zeb
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An SK or BST can solo far better than a monk ever could and kill mobs a monk a few levels higher couldnt.
Ive seen paladins at 57 farm endless AAXP off of LDCs with gear worse than most monks at that level. Against undead they would tear through exp.
Bards can solo far better than monks.
Rangers possibly cant, although Im sure they can do well enough against animals.
The only classes that solo noticeably worse than monks are the other two pure melee, but at least they are the very best in their fields of specialisation.
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Well I can't speak for anybody elses experience, but while a Ranger can find animals to fear kite, soloing is trivial.
My Ranger at 48th certainly find soloing far easier than my Monk ever did, and I understand thins to have been true pre-PoP until at least 55th lvl... although I note now that a friend of mine at 60th is soloing hounds in WW quite happily.
As Kawai points out, the only two classes that dont solo as well as the Monk are the Warrior and the Rogue.
I also play a 46th level Beastlord in very modest gear that makes Monk soloing look like a sad sad joke, and he brings at least as much to a group as a Monk.
post_nerf, Monk soloing aint much different than the other pure melees, it's only FD that makes it more viable as a safety net.
If pure melees are going to be so group dependent... and the majority of Monks are now group dependent for any real activity... then I don't think it unreasonable for us to fucking shine at it, because the non-pure melees, all of them are far far les dependent upon having a group to operate effectively.
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Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=266873), Iksar Monk of Xev.
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Dubious member of Hawkestone (http://pub72.ezboard.com/bhawkestone).
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"I stare, it stares back.
I long to know its feelings.
It demurs. Lunch, then."
</div></p>
So how many level 65 monks does a 52nd level Paladin know anyway?
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ssyxz
10-24-2002, 09:19 AM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>the monk looses 150ac points (thats all that was changed, and i can cite that by fact from Verant's website)<hr></blockquote>You can? Where then?
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>As stated by Verant 50ac = 10damage<hr></blockquote>Again, where does it say this, as this is so wrong it's pitiful.
<div style="text-align:center">Ssyxz
60 Iksar Grandmaster
Magelo (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=178226)</div></p>
Even better…in Halls of Testing, my average damage went from 165 a hit over 300 average.
Lets see…difference between 165 and 325 average…um…give me a minute, I’m not a wizard…well, anyway, I’m pretty sure that’s MORE than 30.
How bout the statue? He max quads close to 1100…you try and pull him now, I’ll stand well back and laugh as he turns you into paste over and over and over. But we’re still as viable as before…really.
All I got to say is “put down the crack pipe”, if your going to smoke crack, at least go for the good stuff next time?
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Fopoodzo
10-24-2002, 09:44 AM
Woohoo more 1 post trolls here to gloat! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
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the monk looses 150ac points (thats all that was changed, and i can cite that by fact from Verant's website)
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You can? Where then?
Quote:
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As stated by Verant 50ac = 10damage
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Again, where does it say this, as this is so wrong it's pitiful.<hr></blockquote>
I'd be interested in offical confirmation of those 'facts' as well. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> If pure melees are going to be so group dependent... and the majority of Monks are now group dependent for any real activity... then I don't think it unreasonable for us to fucking shine at it, because the non-pure melees, all of them are far far les dependent upon having a group to operate effectively. <hr></blockquote>
Yup.
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fop oodzo@monklybusiness43508>Fopoodzo</A> at: 10/24/02 5:47:20 am
Bah dont worry about him, he's prolly a little bitch playing either a pally or a warrior again and has no idea what he's talking about.
Like usual.
Damnb retarded plate wearers.
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your first reply was very well put kiawa
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Monk is a pulling class~ FACT
Monk has feign, and should not be Ma in any situation because of low Hit points ~ FACT
The game has been changed to be more strategic ~ FACT
Strategy implies a group Effort ~ FACT
ALL that was lost was Ac in the nerf ~ FACT
Most monks HAD more ac than most 60 warriors, and that accounted to their solo ability ~ FACT
Now they bitch and moan that they can't solo when PoP is a guild/group ONLY oriented expansion... ~ FACT
"Monk
Monks are dedicated to the pursuit of shaping their bodies into pure weapons. Because of this, they shun nearly all weapons and most forms of armor. They can be very religious and the gods are known to bless them, not with spells, but by magically enhancing their attacks. Only two races produce monks - humans and the lizardmen known as the Iksar. Strangely, though Iksar monks invariably worship Cazic-Thule and most human monks follow Quellious the Tranquil, there are some human monks who are actually agnostic! "
In patch:
Decreased Monks' ability to mitigate damage (please see the Developer's Update on www.everquestlive.com for more details)
"Just like everyone else, we're people. People make mistakes.
Some mistakes aren't that unbalancing and are safe to keep in the game and work around. Others can sometimes yield gameplay that turns out to be even more fun than developers even imagined, as ingenious adventurers discover unrealized potential in their abilities. Yet others, even the best-intentioned ones, can cause an entire style of gameplay to shift dramatically in a direction that no one particularly enjoys.
Due to some specific abilities as they exist today in EverQuest, this unfortunately isn't possible. The mathematics simply cannot be made to work. In extreme cases such as that, the abilities themselves must be altered.
* Monk Defense. Finally, the issue of defensive ability needs to be addressed with respect to Monks. Monks in EverQuest were originally intended to be a class with excellent offensive potential, both with and without equipment. This ability came at the expense of having only passable defensive abilities, partially in the form of an extremely small, restrictive selection of equipment from which to choose.
This, of course, caused its own series of problems of how to adequately reward the person behind the character. It did not take long for universally equippable items (ALL/ALL items) to be considered by and large as "Monk Loot," as far back as before the launch of Kunark.
Over time, Monks' defensive abilities had been tuned up to correct a perceived weakness. This, taken in combination with a few years of universally equippable, low-weight, high powered items entering the game, slowly transformed Monks into what is arguably the strongest defensive class in the game. Monks get hit less than any other class, and due to the tuning over time, no longer take appreciably more damage when they do get hit.
This imbalance between the classes does need to be addressed in order for the Plate-wearing classes in the game to have their proper relative power. The Plate-wearing classes in the game take a serious penalty to their offensive abilities in order to defend as well as they can, and we cannot fix this problem solely by inflating their defensive abilities to compensate for this. Again, that type of change would harm EverQuest as a whole much more than altering the one class. Likewise, we have no desire to retroactively alter all of the equipment in the game that is contributing to this problem.
Monk defense will be altered somewhat. It is no secret that in EverQuest, a character's Armor Class does not compare equally across different classes. (A Wizard with 1000 AC defends differently than a Warrior with 1000AC, for example.) It's not the most optimal system, for sure, but it is the one that many people have had much time to get used to. As such, Monk defense will be altered such that they may continue wearing the same equipment, however, they will get a decreased benefit to their overall ability to take damage.
Again, we have no desire to make monks unable to take any type of punishment -- far from it. What we are primarily striving for is maintaining the defensive order of the Plate classes being able to take the most punishment, followed by the Chain classes and Monks. The latter being technically a Leather wearing class who will continue to make up the difference by being able to avoid more blows than the rest."
....need i say more?
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Hmm, if I want to reread their initial post on this nerf, I can go back and read the Message from the patch instead of having someone re-post it for me. Its time to put this crap to rest. It's a done deal. They may go back and change it but more than likely it will remain as is. I am simply having to change my approach to the game. I have to remember to stay out of this forum with all the 1 post responses that once again celebrate and justify this change. One comment, there is technically no such thing as a "pulling" class. Since the 1 post trolls like to state the "Vision" statement, pulling was never a vision either. Please see the numerous posts on this board that mention that. Pulling was a player created tactic. I can understand the need to vent (I have done my share here), but to continuosly get drug into these flames is getting tiring. We must try and adapt and move on. I see more groupage in my future and maybe that isn't as bad as I think it is. Now just finding the time to fit it into my RL.
Tiket Kouryuu
56th Master
Vazaelle
<A HREF=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=89181>Tiket's Stuff</A></p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Keamil Kindhearted 52nd Knight<hr></blockquote>
LOL
Ummmm... didn't a TON of paladins threaten to quit when:
1. Clerics got upgraded, summoned hammer and high DPS.
2. They were going to nerf Slay Undead.
Answer to both is YES. Some did, not all of them but a large percentage.
So, sort of pot calling the kettle black don't you think?
Thual
56th Shaman of Hate
Fennin Ro</p>
Your FACTS are nothing more than your opinion. Putting the word FACT at the end of your statements doesn't magically annoint them with the ringing purity of truth. On the contrary, it makes you look like an idiot.
Perhaps you could have benefitted from a semester on the debate team instead of a semester under the bleachers smoking weed.
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Fopoodzo
10-24-2002, 11:12 AM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>....need i say more? <hr></blockquote>
Yes, you've basically just restated patch notes and opinions prety much saying "Ner nee ner nee ner ner, I'm right and you're not, suck it up! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p"> "
How about showing where VI stated:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> the monk looses 150ac points (thats all that was changed, and i can cite that by fact from Verant's website)<hr></blockquote>
As it happens it seems that VI effectively reduced AC by about 200, but this is only from player parsing and seems to explain why uber monks with more AC than they know what to do with haven't felt the nerf (at least not on blue mobs). However VI have stated NOTHING on the issue as far as I'm aware (and this could be an incorrect interpretation of what actually was changed).
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> As stated by Verant 50ac = 10damage <hr></blockquote>
This you just pulled out of your ass. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
Also whilst stating facts, you convinently ignore the FACT that melee balance has been thrown out of wack with the mitiagion nerf patch.
pre-nerf (damage) rogue>>>monk>warrior
(tanking) warrior>monk>rogue
post-nerf (damage) rogue>>>monk>warrior
(tanking) warrior>>monk>=rogue
To make it balanced in the role VI seems to be nerfing monks into, that of pure damage dealer, it would have to be something like this:
(damage) rogue>>monk>>warrior
(tanking) warrior>>monk>=rogue
(rogues still come out ahead, but their damage is more situational)
Not to mention that hybrids are beginning to equal monk in damage, tanking and still have spells etc (which also renders FD less useful as FD pulling in many cases is now better done with a SK than a monk).
As a paladin who's recently avoided the nerf bat I'd have thought you'd have more sense. I never saw anything but support for paladins against the nerf, despite the fact quite a few had previously come here to gloat over the monk nerf. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fop oodzo@monklybusiness43508>Fopoodzo</A> at: 10/24/02 7:14:04 am
SkyKungfu
10-24-2002, 11:25 AM
Most monks HAD more ac than most 60 warriors, and that accounted to their solo ability ~ FACT
LMAO
<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin">
Sky
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The nerf had absolutely NOTHING to do with AC.
DAMAGE MITIGATION was nerfed.
Deedrok - 53 Necro
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Nezaaka - 19 Monk
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I apolo for the 50 damage thing ~~ Thats a plate class statistic...on average 50ac "mitigates" 50 damage...I was wrong about that.
But why, honeslty does a "pulling" class need more damage mitigation...as they stated...Monks were not soley the problem, it was the items that grew around the class and out-balanced the other classes...
So why do you quit...when A. They admit the problem, and B correct it so everyone else is equal?...isnt that the idea of the game?...
And btw...Paladins are becoming more and more rare because contrary to popular belief...it does take more skill to play a hybrid than any class in the game...read on Paladins of Norrath...to find out for yourselves...
I didnt ask for a flame...I asked a question that apparently everyone here missed...Why the hell are 20percent of the monks in the game quitting over a "Damage mitigation" when all a monk really does is pull?...Hence feign...and since the game has become more strategic and group oriented wouldnt it be a better thing to be a monk?...Just like the 10/13 1hb that drops in PoP?...
Again, I didnt ask for a flame, and defended myself...stating facts, is also a point of the debate team and any law profession, one states the obvious and builds upon that = most offective debate...You have to remember avg reading/grade level in us is under 11th grade...hence you have to bow down to the idiots when you write...
And Hybrids are meant to deal high damage...They are a tank class, but you also have to remember best weapon in the game used to be monk only...Ton Po's bo stick of understanding...and Fists of Acrylia kick any paladin weapon's ass...especially primal.../priceless...
Monks still got it better than most classes, again my question was why does everyone run away when Verant admitted they made a mistake, and instead of changing the items ( a good thing ) changed the "damage mitigation" a little...
Also, mind you...most of the "i quits" on the forumns happened prior to the patch.
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I don't know if this is wrong with me or not. That's for VI to decide I suppose, but I imagine they'll never share that decision with us. They won't share it probably because the nerf didn't hit the target, and admitting that would mean they'd have to fix it. And well, with PooP just coming out, who's got the time to fix things?
Anyhow: After nerf, I take about 30 % more damage all the time. Doesn't matter if the mob is slowed or any of that other horseshit people like to talk about. In a group, solo, duoing or whatever I take about 30 % more damage. It's more obvious the closer I get to a tanking role. In a group, it's no big deal. Healer just heals me 30 % more. Soloing sorta blows but I can still do it, but it means my exp per hour is about 30 % less than it was before the patch. Am I broke? I really can't know unless VI says, Zarsiss we needed to slow you down by about 30 %. Then I can say, "Yay, I'm not broke!"
I feel broke though. I feel less motivated to grind. I feel less motivated to play.
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<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><FONT SIZE=2 FACE=verdana>my Magelo (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=49821) profile</FONT></TD>
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Well as for those quitting I cant speak for them.
But for myself the monk is much more than pulling . Its a class move I went to because they always soloed well (as well as a melee could) I've got a cleric if I want to be group dependant.
Real life doesn't leave me much time to group I get an hour or so after work during the week and Friday nights I normally group/raid and at that time often I play my cleric.
But I prefer the monk over all and I've invested a lot of time and money if you count monthly fees into him . and the nerf either intended or not has struck a massive blow to one of the major aspects I liked about the monk ...truth be known I WILL NEVER see the gear some of you have our guild is mostly people like my self very casual players with odd times to play.
I've seen some posts say big deal you have to group now !
To those I say have you tried to travel from point A to point B "FIND" a group get set up make a little progress then exit to a safe spot to camp in an hour or so ? ill bet not very often will you get much done .Or worse yet add a corpse run in there somewhere.(another reason I like the monk with short play time)
I guess on some lvl I can see quitting if you feel even more passionatly about this ...or have been hit much harder than me ..(gear seems to be playing a huge roll in this)
maybe this sheds some light on things for you ..if not oh well i tried =)
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catterly
10-24-2002, 02:08 PM
verent has stated from day one until now mobs were never meant to be pulled. FACT
so how the hell can we be labled a pulling class.
I do pull alot, and I will continue to do so and will never stop playing my monk.
I was never over powered, I never tanked anything for my guild, would be a joke to try.
I was pulling hot last week and I was getting pummeled like a mo fo, If I am a pulling class how am I supposed to get back with a mob thats beating me senseless <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol">
Oh well, I would like it back to the way it was, but I am not holding my breath.
Catterly
Grandmaster
my lamer shiznet (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=348369)</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>So why do you quit...when A. They admit the problem, and B correct it so everyone else is equal?...isnt that the idea of the game?... <hr></blockquote>
VI admitted there was a problem with Slay Undead 3, and they tried to correct it so everyone was equal. So the Paladin community raised arms and lots threatened to quit, and a great number posted they were not going to buy PoP becuase if it. *personally I had no problems with the call off of the Slay Undead issue. I thought it was a senseless thing. But this is the premise you are using for monks to quitely accept their hit. So we need to make the compairson.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>And btw...Paladins are becoming more and more rare because contrary to popular belief...it does take more skill to play a hybrid than any class in the game...read on Paladins of Norrath...to find out for yourselves<hr></blockquote>
I find this on the whole a rather insulting statement. I can easly say you are finding even less 60+ monks(now) that are not twinks becuase it takes more skill to play them proprely. Go read Monkly-Business to find out for yourselves. That statement does not make it true. I know quite a few monks that could play Paladins just fine, and quite a few paladins that could play Monks just find thank you. Specisus and does not go to the arguement at hand.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>And Hybrids are meant to deal high damage...They are a tank class, but you also have to remember best weapon in the game used to be monk only...Ton Po's bo stick of understanding...and Fists of Acrylia kick any paladin weapon's ass...especially primal.../priceless... <hr></blockquote>
2 problems with this statment. 1 Hybrids are not meant to deal High Damage. I will roll out some highly respected Paladins to prove that point. In truly situational damage ie. Paladin vs Undead, Ranger with AM 3. Yes I will agree with you. But as a rule Hybrids are suppsed to deal high damage. It is against the Vision. Damage deal is as follows (this is from VI and their Melee balancing statement) Rogue 1.4./Monk 1.2/Warrior 1.0/Knights .80/Ranger .80/Bard .75. This agues against Hybrids dealing high damage amounts.
2nd you take 2 of the rarest weapons in the game and compair them to 2 of the more trivial weapons a Paladin can get. Assuming that the Paladin and the Monk belong to the same guild. If they do the Paladin can get access to weapons that are far superior than primal also.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Monks still got it better than most classes, again my question was why does everyone run away when Verant admitted they made a mistake, and instead of changing the items ( a good thing ) changed the "damage mitigation" a little...<hr></blockquote>
I never understood how we have it better than most classes. I am sorry I just don't get it. Since taking 37% more damage is a good thing. Lets let SU3 nerf happen. VI admited that they made a mistake with it. Its only a little damage mitigation change 15% instead of 37%. Oh yea, we would get the ton of posts saying that they are not going to buy PoP, or quit the paladin class, or quit the game if that happens.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Also, mind you...most of the "i quits" on the forumns happened prior to the patch<hr></blockquote>
So did yours. Also you had your nerf changed inside of 24 hours of it being announced. By the time a lot of people got the message it was changed back. We had a week to stew in it before it happened, and ours happened.
<div style="text-align:center">There are days I say, Give me the Blue Pill
Clirion Darkmoor
Grandmaster
Dragon Council Bertoxx</div>
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Actually, what they said was that in the original design plan, pulling, and certainly not FD pulling, was not anticipated. However, during beta, when the tactic became the obvious way people would play the game, the devs began retuning existing encounters to account for pulling and from then going forward, designed the entire game to account for the possibility of pulling.
So, yes, originally mobs weren't meant for pulling, but unless a person was in an early phase of beta, they haven't ever played EQ without pulling being an integral and intended part of the design.
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Shidosha Yasnaki
10-24-2002, 02:22 PM
"And btw...Paladins are becoming more and more rare because contrary to popular belief...it does take more skill to play a hybrid than any class in the game...read on Paladins of Norrath...to find out for yourselves..."
umm...maybe you should try playing a bard or an enchanter before you starrt trying to label paladins, Sks, and Beastlords as the hardest classes in the game to play... (and no, bards are NOT hybrids, despite often being grouped with them for no discernable reason)
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</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=shi doshayasnaki>Shidosha Yasnaki</A> at: 10/24/02 10:23:03 am
I for one do not enjoy grouping. Also, the plethera of anti-monk sentiment has only furthered my unwillingness to group with anyone. Soloing is much more fun to me than grouping with strangers. Anything that decreases my ability to solo, decreases my enjoyment of the game. I also do not enjoy playing hybrid classes or casters so the obvious choice for me was to play a monk. A melee class that could solo effectively. Your classification of a monk as a "pulling class" may be accurate for some but does not fit me and I would guess many monks. I am not as of yet quitting because I have been working on questing and not xp grinding. When I do return to grinding, if I can no longer solo like I previously could then I will have to consider leaving the game.
Gramone (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=321311)
51 Monk of the Lost Circle
Bristlebane</p>
Gelan
10-24-2002, 02:37 PM
He
Mentioned
Ton
Po's
!
Go
Shoot
Him
Now
!!!
And regarding that 150-200 ac reduction crap and being hit for 30 more, they didn't simply nerf our mitigation, unless you're decked out in the best gear available they REMOVED it!
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<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
And btw...Paladins are becoming more and more rare because contrary to popular belief...it does take more skill to play a hybrid than any class in the game...read on Paladins of Norrath...to find out for yourselves...
<hr></blockquote>
Bullshit.
My first character was a Ranger, and I still use him as an alt. My other alt is a Beastlord. Both are so much easier than my Monk it's untrue.
Paladin for the most part sits in camp and wait for the Monk to bring him a mob. On raids he sits there and waits for the Monks to bring him a mob.
The most complicated thing a Paladin has to do is root park.... and most Paladins can't do that in xp groups. The rest of the time you just have to like whack stuff.
Tell me what a Paladin does that requires more skill or work than pulling? Because I swear if there's a class being played by a tribe of village idiots, it's the Paladin.
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Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=266873), Iksar Monk of Xev.
</div>
<div>
Dubious member of Hawkestone (http://pub72.ezboard.com/bhawkestone).
</div>
<div>
"I stare, it stares back.
I long to know its feelings.
It demurs. Lunch, then."
</div></p>
To play a paladin correctly, is among the hardest thing to do in this game...I also have a high end monk, hence the way i view the issue.
On a monk, you deciesively push a button, from that button extends a plan of battle through melee actions.
A paladin my bullshit friend, is much more than that...more than pressing a button...it takes time to learn to play a good paladin...a monk is regarded as one of the easiest for a reason, it truely takes VERY LITTLE skill...
As to clash bashing ~~ Thats not what i meant it to be, every class is balanced...and BTW...Slay undead is an AA ability that requires over 15aa's...Paladins were protesting due to the fact that their solo ability (which has always been like 0) was taken away, just as yours...and the fact that 15aa's were stuck in that ability...other than AoV, HS, etc...
paladin epic is about the 3rd hardest in the game...you try going to 33 nagafens...THEN try killing a 63 lich, followed by a 55 paladin, then in case you didnt get books you get to compete with the 3 most contested dragons in the game...lemme say yipee! bro, my monk is 51 and has his epic...my paladin...33 nagafens and still not a book...so go bullshit yourself
</p>
Though Hybrid's were 75% Melee 25% caster now they have evolved into their own special classes though they do share many spells with their "parent class". Monk's have de-evolved the mitigation change hit's the worse equiped monks the hardest. While for the most part the uber monks retain most of their abilities and in some area's are uneffected. Example: Highend Monks against low dark blue mobs just own as the did before but when pulling highend mobs they get hit hard. Lowend Monks though suffer in both departments. So it seems that if I wish to continue to solo low dark blue mobs or pull for my guild raids I need to get around 1500ac.
The general opinion is monks have taken about a 200ac hit. If you calculate this using the defensive skill 1 point equals about 2.5 AC monks have taken a 80 point drop in defense. Putting them at about 172 defense from their previous cap of 252. Now the monk change is not visible in this way so this is just a example but using this as a example this puts us below shamans and druids in defensive skill which both cap at 200. Our only redeeming factor then is our avoidance skills which we have over shaman and druids but I purpose a test.
1. Find a druid or shaman with similar AC as you.
2. Pull a mob and turn your back to it. (this will negate any avoidance skills and any missed or mitigated attacks would be purely based off AC and mitigation.)
This if I'm correct should give a good idea of how we mitigate and avoid damage based on AC. I am willing to bet we mitigate right around equal to a druid or shaman with like AC when compared this way. I feel that not only should we mitigate well above shamans and druids but with our avoidance skills we would avoid more attacks also (and we do). Now however I feel we mitigate right around the same as those classes with our avoidance helping a bit.
Kokuei Akujin
</p>
SkyKungfu
10-24-2002, 03:39 PM
Keamil, sorry to say that, but you really proofed that you are either a clueless idiot os a useless troll.
Sky
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sky kungfu>SkyKungfu</A> at: 10/24/02 11:41:03 am
52 Pally and 51 Monk? Your right, you are high end and know everything. Thanks for straigtenin all us dumb monks out...
Thwak 54 Disciple (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=419879) Cyclone of Fury (http://members.tripod.com/cycloneoffury) - Retired
Luve 53 Wanderer (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=420268) Guild Leader - Force of Friends
Tawk 52 Illusionist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=420213) Cyclone of Fury (http://members.tripod.com/cycloneoffury)
Veeshan Server (http://www.veeshan.com)
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Monk is a pulling class~ FACT<hr></blockquote>
Hasn't SOE/VI said over and over pulling was never part of the "Vision".
I take that to mean there is no such thing as a pulling class.
That's like me saying because Paladins and Clerics have DA they are pulling classes.
Jebaniz (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=133718) 55 Monk</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
A paladin my bullshit friend, is much more than that...more than pressing a button...it takes time to learn to play a good paladin...a monk is regarded as one of the easiest for a reason, it truely takes VERY LITTLE skill...
<hr></blockquote>
I asked you once, I'll repeat it.... What is it about playing a Paladin that requires skill compaired to a Monk pulling? This is your oppertunity to illustrate what a clueless idiot I am by enumerating the things a Paladin does that makes it harder to play than any non-Hyrbid.
*edit: it would help if I didn't spell "idiot" as "idtiot"
<hr />
<div>
Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=266873), Iksar Monk of Xev.
</div>
<div>
Dubious member of Hawkestone (http://pub72.ezboard.com/bhawkestone).
</div>
<div>
"I stare, it stares back.
I long to know its feelings.
It demurs. Lunch, then."
</div></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=car nagh>Carnagh</A> at: 10/24/02 4:35:38 pm
This guy has no clue. Am only responding to point how full of garbage this guy is.
His statement about how simple the monk class is to play. Geee.. last time I check. Pulling in places like NToV and up are not so simple. You can not mess up at all. If you do, you are dead or your raid is dead. Sounds simple to me. :P
Move along here, nothing to see.
*gets out his can of Troll-be-gone*
Xykul 57th Lizard Monk
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
To play a paladin correctly, is among the hardest thing to do in this game...I also have a high end monk, hence the way i view the issue.
<hr></blockquote>
Boggle. You're a 52 Knight, what level is your high end munk? I realize you're trying to play the "position of experience" card here, but in light of previous comments, it looks a bit, er dim.
In truth none of the classes are that hard to play. Crowd control and healing are probably the most nerve wracking, and probably in the long run most annoying, cause in that role you find every other PC to be an idiot.
<hr>
<center>
SMAXOR (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=39697)
60 Iksar Grandmaster • Terris-Thule
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<font size="-5">...P.S. pH34r //3!</font>
</center></p>
OK i need to vent. sorry but i think that it is my turn.
All this situational damage about rogues is bullshit. When is it ever the rogues "situaton" to not be at the ass of a mob. If you can maintain your "situational damage" 100% of the time then it IS NOT A SITUATION. it is the way it is. Have you ever heard of a rogue not wanting to BS the hell out of a mob. I havent.
So basically the ballincing argument about rogues damage being only situational is all crap.
Xill 39monk of the nameless.
</p>
I will have to comment that with the recent changes to Clerics, playing my cleric is much more fun and replaces the need to hit things with (aka my monk).
I will have to wait what the gauged fall out of this all is when I am ready to pursue Batol's career as a monkly leezurd, and by then the new tactics should have worked themselves out.
Forums like this are great to read to see who have the will to practice whatever VI gives/nerfs to overcome our pros and cons. It is those monks that make this forum what it is today: The premier source of knowledge for us others (aka as the monk twinkers).
I only play for one reason: FUN
If it takes a few months before the monks are fun again I have the choice to elect to play a High-Priest with a mondo hammer, WR and turned into a Werewolf for max proccage.
I do appreciate the read, as well as all the insights gained from this board while YOU the hardcore monks explore and divulge the secrests (allowing me to look less like a N00b).
/Salute Monkly-Business Monks!!
PS I know that choosing to play level 60 alts is not an option for every one, and I can feel for your stress during this journey; however do not give up. You will overcome any setback, it is in your nature. Don't forget Enchanters and Clerics were totally boring to play (enchanters still are) and it took 3 years for VI to make Clerics fun
Batol Disciple
Khirsa High Priest
Ainie Phantasmist
Benevolent Knights</p>
Wait wait.... paladins with no soloing skill. I have seen many pallies non 60 solo. dmg class? hardly. Ton po's? Wasnt that weapon only on test? Pulling class? hahaha we werent even the first. You are so full of mis guided information its sick. High end monk? lvl/server plz.
Oh oh your a knight. You say being a pally is SOOOOO hard. I bet you dont have a monk, so only having a pally you automatically think he is the hardest class to play. Have you ever pulled big things? NO Have you ever seen a monk pull big things yourself? Im guessing not. No kith general doesnt count.
And these so called VI statements, im really hoping you would give me links to these things. I want to see what ive missed. Until you give me some proof, your just a bullshitting, idiotic, false fact spewing, misguided troll. Fuck off
<div style="text-align:center">Sionistic Triplefist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=139385)
58 Monk
Veeshan</div></p>
Gee, Sion.
Stop beating around in the bush and say what you really feel. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
J/K, I happen to agree with you.
Mala
Ex-55 monk
Bristlebane
</p>
i just spent 15 min making a long post about are pally friend here, but deleted it all cause i dont want to keep repeating everyone. so all i really have to say is
WHAT A FUGGIN SPED!!!!!
only shread of truth he has stated is about the pally epic!! it is a fuggin bitch
</p>
I could only read this thread but so far untill I stoped.
Trolls are only enteraining for a bit.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Perhaps you could have benefitted from a semester on the debate team instead of a semester under the bleachers smoking weed. <hr></blockquote>
HAH! That cracks me up.
</p>
I really wanna hear what Keamil has to say.
A pally takes soooooooooooooooo much skills to play. I REALLY wanna know what this retard has to say for himself. Hey why not throw a magelo of your UBER monk while your at it! Since every damn stupid plate wearing class come on this board with 1 post and say they have level 60 monks in their pockets to back up their RETARDED arguments.
Cmon, put your money where your foot is!
</p>
I really see a class givinh up the game over a change...What i see is one of the best classes in norrath leaving the game because they take more damage. I dont see the rest of the bullshit that you surround the topic with...
A paladin now, does truely take skill...its no longer hit
and run since the changes...Secondly, soloing is now useless, solo class or not.
You keep flaming me, yet, you still take the quote 100percent out of context and then build around the secondary idea...Lets build around the first, shall we.
You leave a game because of one change, that dosnt change the general idea of the class...as someone earlier pointed out a monk IS TODAY a pulling class...JUST as a paladin today is a TANK...
Every class is hard to play, every class takes some point of skill...Lets leave that flame at that...yet i still dont understand why you run and leave because of a change...you dishonor your guild, your friends and you dishonor yourself for leaving when someone admitted they made a mistake and fixed it...all i see is dishonor and fear.
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>You leave a game because of one change, that dosnt change the general idea of the class...as someone earlier pointed out a monk IS TODAY a pulling class...JUST as a paladin today is a TANK...<hr></blockquote>
There is no such thing as a pulling class. Verant has not nor acknowledge that a classes defining ability should be pulling. Matter of fact for awhile they where strictly claiming that pulling should not happen.
The people that are leaving is because thier characters are unplayable. Simple fact.
If a class cannot offer a group ANYTHING besides being a second rate dmg dealer thats on his back 20% of the fight or if that class CANNOT solo worth a crap in HIGH armor then whats the sense of playing that class or the game itself.
Hey KKK before u come here and bitch and moan saying all is well because your class is soo uber now why not take a walk in the shoes of the people your putting down?
Your posts clearly show u know jack about the class itself and any posts here on out will be treated as just that.
</p>
Fopoodzo
10-25-2002, 09:50 AM
One change..... one change. /sigh
It's NOT like nerfing a single overpowered ability or item, nerfing the mitigation of a class is nerfing the way a class works, it's changing EVERYTHING about a class in one nerf. (which is a MUCH bigger and far reaching thing than say the original paladin nerf idea, which was only ONE aspect and yet look at the uproar over that)
It is one nerf, but it's not one change, it affects pretty much every aspect of being a monk.
From pulling (can't take hits can't do long pulls), to damage dealing (can't take hits and have no method of reducing hate without reducing DPS), to soloing (can't take hit means a sigificant reduction in solo ablity).
A lot of things change when you nerf something so integral to a class and don't re-balance them (more avoidance, more damage etc.) in some way.
You can't just nerf something like that and expect that to be it, nerfing the WAY A CLASS WORKS, requires careful thought (something VI haven't really done) and that the class needs to be looked at and rebalanced after the nerf.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>because of one change, that dosnt change the general idea of the class...as someone earlier pointed out a monk IS TODAY a pulling class...<hr></blockquote>
Doesn't change the class?!?!?
How can getting hit for more in pretty much every situation NOT affect the 'idea' of the class.
And as for pulling, if you don't have to FD pull a warrior, ranger, paladin or a SK is a better choice for pulling than a monk.
For many situations where FD IS absolutely needed a SK (post-nerf) still makes a better choice for pulling.
If you cannot comprehend <span style="text-decoration:underline">why</span> monks are generally upset... well I guess there is no helping you.
</p>
Ok. I'm going into Keamil Argument Mode here so all sane readers, please bear with me.
So your Paladin is a "tank" class. How do you think Paladins would feel if Verant said "Ok. Paladins are tanks. We're going to remove your ability to double attack and you will have the melee skills of a cleric." Say they even throw you a bone and make your stuns an even more awesome taunt than they are. You would still be able to tank. Hell, you could just chain cast stuns to hold aggro. Would that be ok with you? It would follow your logic since Paladins, being a "tank" class, don't need to do any dmg right? All you need to do is soak and taunt. Your ridiculous argument is much the same. You think it's perfectly ok to nerf a monks ability to take damage down to nothing because we are "pulling". I say that it's fair for *you* (not all paladins, just you) to not be able to do any dmg at all since you are a "tank".
Sound like fun?
I'm going to save off this thread to my hard drive so that I will always be able to remind myself of how *not* to prove a point. Any time I see someone making arguments that are completely illogical, making up facts as the go along and generally pretending to know what they're talking about when they're clueless, I'll just say "Ahh. You must have studied under Logic Master Keamill".
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>You leave a game because of one change, that dosnt change the general idea of the class...as someone earlier pointed out a monk IS TODAY a pulling class...JUST as a paladin today is a TANK...<hr></blockquote>
Hmm so by that statement, if they changed a paladin to a cloth class, you would continue to play your 850 ac new gimp cleric?
The issue that has the monks all worked up is that many of us that chose this class did so because we liked the packaging. I work far to many hours a week to be a 'power gamer' or to join a 'l33t' guild.. I value my time outside of the game to much. When I play this game I do it in 2-4 hour sets which does NOT fit well with the /lfg for 1 hour framework.
I don't like to leave other people high and dry by abandoning a group I was pulling or tanking for so I usually stick with a very small group of select friends (none of us play a tank so I WAS the tank for us) or I solo.. I have been doing this for 60 levels and 11 aa. Now I do neither of these things effectively.
I was sold on a monk BECAUSE IT FIT MY PLAY PROFILE.. I wanted a melee but I needed to be able to play in short stints. I have reached a /played of 70 days in 2-4 hour blocks so figure out for yourself how long I have been playing this game.
The reason I have quit is because I cannot play to this style anymore and I refuse to screw up other peoples nights by constantly bailing on groups because of my play times. To be very very frank CHILD I take a great deal of offence to you coming to a MONK board and saying 'whats the big deal' without bothering to get at least SOME of your facts correct.
Incidentally child, you are correct, monks are very easy to play.. but guess what? So is a paladin. If you truly think it takes 'l33t' skill to get a paladin to low fifties I really will laugh. Basically any class that does not have inherent agro issues (i.e. tashing and slowing a quadding 770 mob, or playing a song that debuffs every creature in a 60' radius) is easy. Don't be so neive to think because you have pretty crystals to push as well as a half dozen buttons that your are fringing on divine skill. If you really think that because sometime you have to play ghetto healer or root parker you have a harder job then a monk or any other class for that matter, look me up in game, I will set you up with raid so you can show off your 'l33t' 6 caster fd skills.
</p>
Incidentally,
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>as someone earlier pointed out a monk IS TODAY a pulling class<hr></blockquote>
necros have fd too.. why do you suppose it is that monks pull and not necros?
Oh wait.. it is because we can er.. used to be able to take hits.
Your logic is void.. in one breath you say 'it's just one change why are you quitting' and in the next you are saying 'you are a pulling class', guess what? The one change makes it much much much harder for the pulling.
Might not seem it facing the 'end game mobs' you face at level 51 but trust me.
</p>
50ac = 50 damage?
does that mean at 1500ac you're immune to stuff that hits 1500 per hit or less?
lol
Pantry (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=110152)</p>
Let me explain why this nerf is a lot more far reaching than nerfing a single item or spell or AAXP:
Monks are taking between 10% and 80% more damage from mobs, depending on the mobs level in relation to their level. Or more precisely, the mobs attack relative to their AC.
This means that monks effectively have 91% to 56% of the hitpoints the same monk would have had prior to the nerf. This hitpoint adjustment is applied to both the character’s level based hitpoints and any hitpoints added by hp items, stamina items or buffs.
This change has crippled the monk class. No one would have chosen a class that was crippled like this if they knew that they would end up so badly nerfed. Who would chose a pure melee class that effectively had 91% to 56% of a rogue or bards hitpoints?
In the wilds of Antonica, the forest Tanuki (http://www.odanuki.com/Gallery/article.htm) were renowned for their sneaky ways.
Kawai Tanuki ("")
Celestial Grandmaster of Excelsior
<center>
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Congratulation!!...AD 2111: All Bases of Cats were destroyed. It seems to be peaceful. But it is incorrect. Cats is still alive. ZIG-01 must fight against Cats again
and down with them completely . Good luck!!
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</p>
Please... For the love of god.. What part of... VERANT DOESNT ACKNOWLEDGE PULLING THAT YOU MORONS DONT UNDERSTAND!!!
</p>
Actually, they yes they do and did all along (harmony, lull etc were in the game since day one). It is FD pulling that they did not anticipate.
Please go troll the FoH boards.
</p>
Go play a monk sometime. You try to pull something big. See how easy it is. I've never played a paladin so i wont say they are easy. But you have never played a monk but you say they are. Who the FUCK are you to say that? You have NO experience in what we do. Go troll some warrior forum so you actually have something semi-revelant to be wrong about.
Edit: Cuz spelling is HARD
<div style="text-align:center">Sionistic Triplefist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=139385)
58 Monk
Veeshan</div></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tib bil>Tibbil</A> at: 10/25/02 9:18:35 am
It is well known that the abilities of the monk lie within pulling...ask any class, monk is the best puller, necros/Sks close second and ranjas/pallys 3rd...Ask anyone...
The patch crippled the monk ability to SOLO...a monk is a group based class that has been ACKNOWLEDGED BY THE PLAYERS to be a PULLING CLASS...
Fist of Acrylia/Primal Velium with Epic...Or even a Tstaff/Epic...God, do the math...monks fists at 60 are 24/20 (onhand/offhand using magelo calc)...24/20...shit thats insane...add in the fact that primal/acrylia > Ragebringer/Anything you want here...AND there are EVEN BETTER monk items in Vex Thal...
The monk was changed to a Group based class and you run...whats there to argue with?...
MOST people i know like this change...a MONK is a NON-ARMOR traditionally based CLASS...a class that can FIGHT WITHOUT WEAPONS...
You loose the ability to solo and you flee...
Every other class has been a group based class including Necro's recently...Solo EXP was bitch nerfed and your telling me you didnt expect this?
Im not trying to start an argument...I asked a question and had my ass flamed by a bunch of babies that cant handle the facts...
Your all leaving because of a single change...Necros had their asses nerfed...paladins used to suck...rangers used to suck...Most monks have more ac still then i do, so what they changed how much damage you took...PoP is a strategy GAME...a group based Strategic expansion...
Monks are Acknowledge by the PLAYERS as a PULLING CLASS...
Again, why dont you just answer my original question...If all they did is change the damage you take in a fight...why do you all leave...
Rogue>Monk>Ranger BTW...as i explained above with magelo's damage calc =P...
Monks are made even and FINALLY Balanced and you all bitch about it...Paladins are a different story...You try being 52 for 6 months, try waiting 5hrs for a group while 4 monks come in and get groups before ya...or oh yea...the 48 warrior...ONLY now are paladins/Rangers actually a grouping class...you monks have taken it for granted for so long its incredible...Soloing instead of grouping...Others had it different...
</p>
Why should we even bother to argue against your position when you do it so well. What's really sad, in a non gaming sort of way, is that you actually believe you are making intelligent arguments.
</p>
Hey Xillmonk,
You are correct that a Rogue always wants to be behind a mob, but not always do the mobs agree with the Rogue. Sometimes in certain situations you can not get behind a mob, hence no backstab. Backstabs also create lots of aggro, again no backstab. While we have evade, which is a very good aggro management tool, aggro for the most part is part of every fight. So, when a Rogue has aggro or is evading he is not able to backstab. = situational
italee02
</p>
SkyKungfu
10-25-2002, 02:17 PM
Havent seen any facts of you, just putting /fact at the end of an argument doesnt make it true in any way. Some of your /facts are so wrong its really a pain to raid them. Troll elsewhere.
Sky
</p>
Hmmm This coming from a Pally(Which by the way STILL suck Until 60) Coming to a monk board and clapping his hands like a retarded seal... Lets not throw salt into the wounds and make them worse..
the reason alot of monks gave up is because why play a monk now when you can play a Shadow knight better Midigation and Armor now..See you come here wanting an answer from all these monks that stop playing..
Well the answer is We feel let down.VI has made it very clear they dont care about us as a Player class or base.
What did i think about SU3 being put on the chopping block I didnt because its not something that is used by the class EVERYDAY for Every encounter..
Our AC on the other Hand is something we use for Every fight Taking that Secret 200+ ac from us Hurt alot of the Low end Monks if you want to understand how bad it hurt us use 3/4 your mana and Engage a blue coning Mob Find you how fast you have to flee or can you stand Toe/Toe..
I For one waited to see how bad the nerf was and when i logged on the next day i had found the nerf to be VERY harsh indeed..
you want an Example the week before UP Pulling Assasins
60 Mob Double Backstab for 900 sometimes 1000 Dmg pulling before the nerf i would make it back to My group with around 2 and a half Bubs of health MT would take it off me and i would be healed to Full health Stand and Administer a little PAY back..After the nerf my first pull double BS for 950/1000 With 2 hits for just around 285.. Droped like a rock So yes my Pulling is VERY damaged by the Nerf..
In closing you try spliting the PoZ in Kael by yourself mister Uber pally because after this nerf Monks are crap...
Osyris (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=269305&resize=true)
*Power Without Perception is Spiritually useless and there for of no true Value*</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Monk is a pulling class~ FACT
Monk has feign, and should not be Ma in any situation because of low Hit points ~ FACT
The game has been changed to be more strategic ~ FACT
Strategy implies a group Effort ~ FACT
ALL that was lost was Ac in the nerf ~ FACT
Most monks HAD more ac than most 60 warriors, and that accounted to their solo ability ~ FACT
Now they bitch and moan that they can't solo when PoP is a guild/group ONLY oriented expansion... ~ FACT<hr></blockquote>
All your facts lol are not facts.
#1 Monk is a pulling class~ FACT - yes but much more than pulling.
#2 Monk has feign, and should not be Ma in any situation because of low Hit points ~ FACT - low Hps? Look at my magelo. and there is still much room for improvement. I am MA in many situations, even in PoP when none of our warriors yet had PoP installed.
#3 The game has been changed to be more strategic ~ FACT - False, it has been changed to be more fun. If you know anything of strategies, Luclin encounters were the pinnacle of strategy fights but once the strats were figured out, the length of the fights made it tedious.
#4 Strategy implies a group Effort ~ FACT - If you only knew the strategies put into soloing some of the camps out there...
#5 ALL that was lost was Ac in the nerf ~ FACT - LoL boldface lie. Mitigation was nerfed NOT AC.
#6 Most monks HAD more ac than most 60 warriors, and that accounted to their solo ability ~ FACT - um no. false. It's just that our AC meant more due to our high mitigation and avoidance ratings. The AC itself was still a bit under that of equally equipped warriors.
#7 Now they bitch and moan that they can't solo when PoP is a guild/group ONLY oriented expansion... ~ FACT - um get a clue. I am still soloing. Not bitching. In fact, since the nerf and the expansion, I now see the nerf was necessary to keep monks from becoming totally godly with the addition of 5 more levels and 5 more AA levels of mitigation and avoidance.
MONKS STILL ROCK.
The real problem was the influx of twinked monks that had items available to them that made creating and leveling a monk disgustingly easy which in turn created TOO many high end monks who lacked the complete knowledge of their class to do the class justice.
That is clearly shown here in this whole thread.
Rhizzen Khillahpriest <Darkblood>
54 Necromancer of Innoruuk
Sol Ro
Sensai Ssoulz Jah <Darkblood>
60 Grandmaster of Cazic Thule
Sol Ro
<div style="text-align:center">
Ssoulz Stuffz (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=405138)
http://www.thedragonseye.net/eq/Sensei%20Ssoulz%20signature.jpg
</div></p>
"Fist of Acrylia/Primal Velium with Epic...Or even a Tstaff/Epic...God, do the math...monks fists at 60 are 24/20 (onhand/offhand using magelo calc)...24/20...shit thats insane...add in the fact that primal/acrylia > Ragebringer/Anything you want here...AND there are EVEN BETTER monk items in Vex Thal..."
KeamilKindhearted, what kind of Crack are you smoking.
Not every monk in the game has access to the types of equipment you are listing out here. TStaff is the most common one, and it goes for 25-50k pp depending what server you are on. All the TStaff does it put the monk ahead of the curve. By the time a monk has access to Primal/Luclin weapons, other cases have access to almost ~ weapons.
BTW the monk bare fist at 60th is 14/26 human and 14/27 Iksar. I WISH my fist was a 24/20 Then every monk could be a crack daddy.
Is the monk still good? Depend. When I fight low blues, I notice small change (damage is spikier than before). High blues, there is a noticeable change (grouping). High end Raid encounters, I am a paper tank (Raid Buffed ~ 4kish hp 1100ish ac).
Have monks been reduced. Yes. Do people have a right to be upset. Yes. Does it make it worse when Trolls hit the boards spouting information that isn't even correct? YEP!
If you want to make observations about the monk change feel free to, but don't come in here spouting stuff like monk fist are 24/20 and the Paly is a harder class to play.
Xykul 57th Lizard Monk
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Monks are Acknowledge by the PLAYERS as a PULLING CLASS...<hr></blockquote>
Who cares what the players think a Monks roll is? Are the players doing the class balanacing? Are the players rolling out the nurfs?
STFU and go home please.
Jebaniz (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=133718) 55 Monk</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>KeamilKindhearted00
Young Grasshoppah
Posts: 1
(10/24/02 2:57:24 am)
<hr></blockquote>
Wow, what a great long thread in reply to a troll, looks like he won <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">
<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin">
<hr />My Magelo (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=140534)
Curscale Bloodyscales < Knights of Reverence > Xev</p>
I agree, long detailed posts in response to a guy who doesn't have a monk. Why bother. He just likes to get a rise out of you monklys and he's succeeded. I for one don't really care what he has to say.
</p>
Hold up a sec, Monks could solo <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p"> .
I started a monk as my first char and i gained every single level, except for a little bit of 47 i got from Minos in LGuk, by grouping. I tried soloing but i just couldn't. /shrug I know i suck, be gentle ). But think of this, if i took alot of dmg before how can i pull, my so called Main Job. I can't even do that as good tnow.
So now chain classes, rogues and rangers etc., take better dmg. Rogues give better dmg and rangers are close to us. What am i good for again? And if I sucked before........
Ravnor Quickfists 55 Master
Proud Officer of The Coalition of Power</p>
FYI even before the nerf, try pulling a flurry drake in NToV by allowing it to catch up to you. You won't make it home.
For pulling ..
Nothing has changed. Just don't freakin get hit.
Rhizzen Khillahpriest <Darkblood>
54 Necromancer of Innoruuk
Sol Ro
Sensai Ssoulz Jah <Darkblood>
60 Grandmaster of Cazic Thule
Sol Ro
<div style="text-align:center">
Ssoulz Stuffz (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=405138)
http://www.thedragonseye.net/eq/Sensei%20Ssoulz%20signature.jpg
</div></p>
24/20? Omg shut the fuck up NOW, you have NO idea what your talking about and your just a useless fucking troll who got all of his info from message boards and has probably never even seen a monk pull. Mods plz lock this thread its going NOWHERE!!!
<div style="text-align:center">Sionistic Triplefist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=139385)
58 Monk
Veeshan</div></p>
I actually read all the posts this guy made and can sum him up in one word.
Idiot
</p>
I did suggest very early on in the thread that the chap was obviously young and we should just move on... and we should do just that, the chap is obviously very young.
<hr />
<div>
Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=266873), Iksar Monk of Xev.
</div>
<div>
Dubious member of Hawkestone (http://pub72.ezboard.com/bhawkestone).
</div>
<div>
"I stare, it stares back.
I long to know its feelings.
It demurs. Lunch, then."
</div></p>
Actually....you add your offhand and average the ratio than add the damage...magelo's calculator...wanna flame the ratio...its true and i can do the math for you right now...Dumbass
Primal Velium Fistwraps
MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Skill: 1HB Atk Delay: 20
DMG: 15 WT: 0.5 Dmg/Sec: 15.50
AC+10 STR+5 DEX+5 AGI+5 STA+5 CHA+5 INT+5 WIS+5 HP+50 MANA+50 SV POISON+5 SV DISEASE+5 SV COLD+5 SV FIRE+5 SV MAGIC+5
Effect: Avatar (Unlimited Charges)
Class: MNK
Race: HUM IKS
Jade Mace
MAGIC ITEM
Skill: 1HB Atk Delay: 18
DMG: 9 WT: 2.1 Dmg/Sec: 10.56
Class: WAR CLR PAL SHD DRU MNK BRD ROG SHM
Race: ALL
Okay lets do this math...Dly on avg is 19...
Damage is 24...Your onhand/offhand combo is a 24/19 weapon when using these 2 weapons...Now, one isnt common the other is...why do you think onhand ratios normally under 18? Especially for monks...So lets use magello's calc now...Oh look at that LOL...23.666dmg/19dly...Go shove it out your ass
Oh wait a second! We can do it another way if you like...using Eqprice's machine!
Offhand ratio is .5 Onhand is 0.75.....Whats 0.5+0.75 hrmm, i wonder...1.25 Huh? wow, thats weird..25/20
Any damage calculator will give you the same ratio...next time you flame, know what the fuck your talking about
~~From one of your own
Skellt
Young Grasshoppah
Posts: 8
(10/23/02 9:12:10 am)
Reply Re: Feedback
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Verant will listen to numbers. Parsed numbers. They are extraordinarily resistant to personal opinion as is expressed in both petitions and sit ins. They will listen if those numbers show that the nerf did NOT do what they intended it to do. They will not listen if the numbers show that the nerf had its intended effect.
Keep parsing the nerf's effect. The posts with hard numbers I've seen so far list a 6%-12% increase in dmg taken. If you feel 6%-12% is too high, then keep posting feedback to them detailing your parses and expressing your opinion based on these cold hard facts that this is too much of a loss.
Paladin's didn't get their nerf reversed at all. They got their nerf switched to a different nerf. They did't need to petition or sit in. They did this by presenting parsed data on SU's effect and why the proposed nerf would make it useless for the majority of Paladins.
I really feel that's your best chance of getting this issue looked at.
...instead of flaming me...you coulda had half a chance of helping your own class...Have a nice day
Keamil Kindhearted
52nd Knight
Muh Sutff (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=145322)
The Web Masta
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kea milkindhearted00>KeamilKindhearted00</A> at: 10/26/02 4:34:24 am
Hate to say this but you know nothing about the way damage is calculated.
Better to be silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and confirm it.
I agree with the guy stating we should submitted parses, but the postings here indicate 10% - 80% percent (presumably more damage as a mobs atk approaches a players AC).
</p>
"Fist of Acrylia/Primal Velium with Epic...Or even a Tstaff/Epic...God, do the math...monks fists at 60 are 24/20 (onhand/offhand using magelo calc)...24/20...shit thats insane...add in the fact that primal/acrylia > Ragebringer/Anything you want here...AND there are EVEN BETTER monk items in Vex Thal..."
Where to begin. First off, stop using weapons alot of monks dont have yet. It will probably take me half a year to even get close to fist of acrylia, and primal... who knows. Now this is good, you showed us in your most recent post how you calculated damage. But yet you said that primal/jade mace is equal to 24/20. But then In this earlier post you said monk fists were 24/20. Huh? First off your using a system no one here even uses. Second your adding diferent parameters as you go along.
Oh and comparing weapons of completly different eras is good too. OOOOOOOO Aparantly the luclin era weapons are better then kunark era! OOOOO I'm an idiot! NO SHIT SHERLOCK. Are you saying now that we do more damage then rogues? For FUCK's sake will you stop putting up all this meaning less bullshit and stfu? You have never played a monk and know nothing about them. Yet you continue to talk about them like if you do.
I ask again someone PLEASE lock this thread!
<div style="text-align:center">Sionistic Triplefist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=139385)
58 Monk
Veeshan</div></p>
KEamil! Please stop! YOu think your making sense but you know nothing of game mechanics! YOur making a complete ass of yourself!
Someone lock this thread, people who play pallies are reached a new time low with this retard.
</p>
Go get somebody from the Paladin boards to come over and stop him before he does himself some serious injury.
If you want to know how to calculate damage, here (http://www.monkly-business.com/articles2.asp?ArticleNum=66) is how.
Now please, wait until you come down off the mushrooms before posting again.
<hr />
<div>
Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=266873), Iksar Monk of Xev.
</div>
<div>
Dubious member of Hawkestone (http://pub72.ezboard.com/bhawkestone).
</div>
<div>
"I stare, it stares back.
I long to know its feelings.
It demurs. Lunch, then."
</div></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=car nagh>Carnagh</A> at: 10/26/02 7:47:47 am
I have checked at PoN, could not find a post from him overthere. Not sure why. Possibly the search engine is not working right there.
<div style="text-align:center">There are days I say, Give me the Blue Pill
Clirion Darkmoor
Grandmaster
Dragon Council Bertoxx</div>
</p>
Brother Aranon
10-26-2002, 12:44 PM
Something terrible happend to you as a child. (Last week). You must have been dropped on your face with a bunjie cord attached so that you pounded the pavement a few thousand times. Sorry - got carried away in my early morning stupor...but sir, you are a fucktard.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Any damage calculator will give you the same ratio...next time you flame, know what the fuck your talking about<hr></blockquote>
Ooooooh how many times in this thread I've wanted to ask you to take your own advice. I really hate it when people feed the trolls, but you've baited me so well by being such a complete moron.
You're a pally. You have no idea what you're talking about. You reference the 60-65 monks (Of which you may know 1...maybe.) You're correct in a way, the nerf didn't really effect them in the exp arena. Not enough to quit anyway (on a general basis.) What it did do, is seriously hinder their ability to do what you think they should do for you always, Pull. Perhaps you can go out in all your hybrid glory and pull an entire raid of quadding 1500+ damage mobs? I don't think so, not even with your plate. Every single bit of mitigation saves the monks deaths on raids. Especially when things had been they way they were for so long.
Another thing, concerning damage. This is what killed me. Your comparison between monk weapon abilities and rogue's damage. Are you kidding me? Rogues beat the hell out of us. And that's where they were placed in the damage hierarchy. Don't tell me "FACTS" you wanna prove something, you better quote it from somewhere or show me logs.
Last thing, you retarded monkey. I believe the exact quote was "MOST monks in the game have more AC than warriors." This is where I tell you to know "WTF you're talking about before you flame." I doubt you even know a high end warrior's AC much less any monk that had more AC than a comparable warriror. Know why? Cause they barely existed.
Go back to the Pally board or read here for a day or two to understand the class before you post something that you know nothing about. I'm still waiting on your 150AC proof from VI by the way. Let me know in a few years when you scrounge up the proof you claimed to have from the beginning.
Burn.
BA
</p>
Instead of...flaming this..."retard" that "obviosly" didn't know he was talking about...we could've as many had done...explained the damagage mitigation, as others much later did, and had mercy on him for making several mistakes but, instead you chose to openly flame him...even saying
"Someone lock this thread, people who play pallies are reached a new time low with this retard."
Quoting me out of context was another...I apologize for my use of language...now As i was saying on the damage calculator...when i stated the monk fists i said the word "like" i do believe...it was an estimate...the real answer is 28/27...And as Verant itself even stated for me:
"The monk is .. the best fighting class in the game in terms of dealing out damage over time...Monks dish out some incredible damage, since they get dual wield and double attack very early, resulting in many attacks per round. No other tank class can match them at this. "
Now, if youd like to flame me on this comment, please look at the comparison first. Monk weapons have a far better ratio than any Rogue weapon in the game, they also; as i stated above, when the Dual wield skill peaks over 200+, even 250...the chance to hit successfully is made almost equal, hence my saying
"Okay lets do this math...Dly on avg is 19...
Damage is 24...Your onhand/offhand combo is a 24/19 weapon when using these 2 weapons...Now, one isnt common the other is...why do you think onhand ratios normally under 18? Especially for monks...So lets use magello's calc now...Oh look at that LOL...23.666dmg/19dly"
And equally on your offhand...this information can be easilly reaserched had you spent any time reviewing your class...
Many of my first coments had been in game tells, those were then posted as fact...and the amount of ac that monks lost, as i am now told (on-line by a monk friend, thank you) ranges from around 100-200ac pts...
I asked a question, and i asked it wrong, and i responded in a very aggressive mannor, i apologize...some help, though instead of the massive flame would've effectively ended a thread, any thread alot faster than taunting that person to attack...something not warranted often provokes an assault from an opponent...I do play a 51 monk, through due to problems that could arise due to my playing him, i will with-hold that information. =P
If you want proof about the weapons, you can find them on your own...monks also get insane 2hb's that surpass all rogue weapons...+ that i do believe things obtainable like a Facesmasher...are better...
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
</p>
Monks did not lose ac.
We lost some of our mitigation ability. AC was uneffected.
Rhizzen Khillahpriest <Darkblood>
54 Necromancer of Innoruuk
Sol Ro
Sensai Ssoulz Jah <Darkblood>
60 Grandmaster of Cazic Thule
Sol Ro
<div style="text-align:center">
Ssoulz Stuffz (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=405138)
http://www.thedragonseye.net/eq/Sensei%20Ssoulz%20signature.jpg
</div></p>
Tempur
10-28-2002, 03:03 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>as Verant itself even stated for me:
"The monk is .. the best fighting class in the game in terms of dealing out damage over time...Monks dish out some incredible damage, since they get dual wield and double attack very early, resulting in many attacks per round. No other tank class can match them at this. "<hr></blockquote>
VI stated this so it MUST be true! what a load of crap. sure, we get dual wield and double attack before anyone else. but gee, by lvl 15 the playing field is lvled isn't it? have you seen the damage a rogue can do? get your facts straight or get off this message board.
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=67354>Tempur Flarin</a> - The Maniac Monk
Vitam Aeternam
You want me to pull WHAT?</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Quoting me out of context was another...I apologize for my use of language...now As i was saying on the damage calculator...when i stated the monk fists i said the word "like" i do believe...it was an estimate...the real answer is 28/27<hr></blockquote>
Hrm? when did our fists become 28/27? Or are you talking weapons? I am really getting confused on your posts.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>And equally on your offhand...this information can be easilly reaserched had you spent any time reviewing your class... <hr></blockquote>
Your questions have all been answerd by people that have seen and how the monk class has worked over time. Amazing how these people know nothing about the class at all. Yet you have done some "research" and have difinitive answers.
I am still confused with the weapons thing here. Exactly State what weapons we are talking about. On hand and Off hand. This will give me a better chance to see what you are talking about.
<div style="text-align:center">There are days I say, Give me the Blue Pill
Clirion Darkmoor
Grandmaster
Dragon Council Bertoxx</div>
</p>
Dragon of Metal
10-28-2002, 03:25 PM
You quoted VI saying:
"The monk is .. the best fighting class in the game in terms of dealing out damage over time...Monks dish out some incredible damage, since they get dual wield and double attack very early, resulting in many attacks per round. No other tank class can match them at this. "
Did anyone else notice what I did? With his very own quote it says that we are a tank class? So since VI thinks of us as a tank class is there a real reason we got nerfed?
</p>
Actually monks are pulling machines in pop. Of course you all FD for the start of melee waiting 10 sec for a cheal or incomplete heal to heal cause of all the damage you took running willy nilly back to camp with critter in tow. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> That's after you split them with fd.
Well, that my experience so far in pop exp groups. Monk running hell bent back to group with critter in tow. And fds next to warrior who jumps all over it to get aggro. Then monk and rogue beat on it. Watch silly warrior flopping on the ground trying to FD or something. Hey you what you think you doing sleeping on the job? Aggro switches to rogue who is doing everthing he can do to dump aggro including just standing there without attacking, hitting hide, and flopping on the ground trying to FD too. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> Now it the monk turn to flop over. And it just goes around and around.
The only real problem with this is that it made healing a nightmare (/cackles at the pun) cause the 3 melees in the group kept getting aggro at different times and falling asleep.
Ok ok. That type of thing is probably not that common. But it sure wsa funny watching a warrior and rogue try to fd all the time fighting dem spiders. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> Besides you need a good laugh before you get ulcers or something. And the only one that flopping over worked for was the monk. hehehe
<span style="color:#FF00FF;font-size:medium;">Tsulyra</span> (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=150479)<span style="color:#FF00FF;font-size:medium;"> Shadowhawk</span>
Hierophant of Tunare
Second Covenant - Lanys
Jendera (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=151255) Shadowhawk
52nd rank sword mistress of Tunare
Pollyra 45 monk - Bellyra (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=293914) 54 cleric</p>
Stave of Shielding
MAGIC ITEM
Skill: 1HB Atk Delay: 28
DMG: 17 WT: 3.2 Dmg/Sec: 12.50
Effect: Major Shielding (HP+75, AC+18, SV MAGIC+14)
Class: PAL SHD MNK
Race: ALL
Exquisite Velium Battlehammer
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM
Skill: 1HB Atk Delay: 20
DMG: 12 WT: 3.5 Dmg/Sec: 12.50
Class: WAR CLR PAL RNG SHD DRU MNK BRD ROG SHM
Race: ALL
VS.
Crescent Blades of Luclin
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM
Skill: PIERCING Atk Delay: 18
DMG: 10 WT: 3.2 Dmg/Sec: 11.67
SV MAGIC+10
Effect: Shadow
Class: WAR RNG SHD BRD ROG
Race: ALL
Ragebringer
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Skill: PIERCING Atk Delay: 25
DMG: 15 WT: 2.5 Dmg/Sec: 12.40
STR+20 DEX+10 AGI+10 STA+10 HP+80 SV POISON+20 SV DISEASE+10 SV MAGIC+20
Effect: Seething Fury(Proc) (40%)
Class: ROG
Race: HUM BAR ELF DEF HEF DWF HFL GNM
...Using the statistics from prices...the combo of the SoS/hammer are much better than the Rage/CboL...we can also introduce that, although ragebringer is 40percent haste...Monks by this time mostly have 36percent haste + Epic...Which is...more than the rogues, even increasing the amount of damage done before...
Rogues = Short term damage by definition, and many BS's miss or dont hit over 200 for your average rogue...Now we add the Kicks, claws...etc that a rogue does NOT get and you have a long term damage machine VS a short term damage machine...Long term, for most of PoP now, is favored over the short term rogues...
Now, verant rules our game...so as someone mentioned before...Let's flame verant...lets not believe them, call them liars and flame them...you know thats real smart...flame your producer...Please, go ahead...if i gets anywhere /tell me
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I do play a 51 monk, through due to problems that could arise due to my playing him, i will with-hold that information. =P<hr></blockquote>
Hrm. Answer this then. Have you leveled a monk from 1-51? Your statement would seem to give in to the possibility that your "play" of a 51 monk may be limited to logging in a friend/guildies account every now and then to do a cr or who knows what, especially considering that "problems could arise" due to your playing him.
Nice try.
</p>
I have a level 42 monk...and i occasionally play a 51...for several hours ty...Assumptions get us no where...If you could comment on the factual evidence i provided on the dmg/dly ratio...that woulda ctually get us somewhere and me out of this board even faster...so please Zikoz, im all ears =)
</p>
Monk PoP pull to tank transition 101
1. Pull the mob back to the group.
2. Pop stone stance and tank the mob allowing the warrior to build aggro while the monk is tanking.
3. Make sure healers are giving fair warning before healing.
4. As the heal is called, the monk FDs aggro to the warrior who has had about 10 seconds to build aggro.
5. Heal hits the monk, warrior has free aggro built (*thanks to the monk tanking it at the start of the fight allowing the warrior to taunt and wack on the mob without taking any damage), which frees the cleric up to heal the warrior who has a good amount of aggro built, without the cleric having to worry about healing aggro.
6. Monk pops out of FD to help kill the mob, rinse, and repeat.
This is nothing new. PrePoP it has been done but no in PoP Ch's cause insane aggro. The transition helps to aleviate healer aggro.
**Note***
Druid CH does not cause much aggro, certainly not nearly as much as the Cleric CH. This makes druids supreme healers for monks in EXP group and raid tank mezzing situations.
Rhizzen Khillahpriest <Darkblood>
54 Necromancer of Innoruuk
Sol Ro
Sensai Ssoulz Jah <Darkblood>
60 Grandmaster of Cazic Thule
Sol Ro
<div style="text-align:center">
Ssoulz Stuffz (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=405138)
http://www.thedragonseye.net/eq/Sensei%20Ssoulz%20signature.jpg
</div></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rhi zzen>Rhizzen</A> at: 10/28/02 11:50:03 am
Tempur
10-28-2002, 04:01 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Rogues = Short term damage by definition, and many BS's miss or dont hit over 200 for your average rogue...Now we add the Kicks, claws...etc that a rogue does NOT get<hr></blockquote>
say huh? have you seen any parses of rogues? first of all our flying kick doesn't land that often either. secondly, BS does a hell of a lot more damage when it does land. third, my beastlords warder can claw but so far my monk cant.
EDIT: i apologize for getting you started on rogues. you have shown that you know pitifully little about monks and now you feel bound to prove you know less about rogues.
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=67354>Tempur Flarin</a> - The Maniac Monk
Vitam Aeternam
You want me to pull WHAT?</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tem pur>Tempur</A> at: 10/28/02 12:06:46 pm
Fopoodzo
10-28-2002, 04:07 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>62.85dps (warrior)
69.81dps (monk)
94.15dps (rogue)<hr></blockquote>
Yup that's a monk outdamaging a rogue, lol. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
etc., etc., etc.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>This is from fighting the Itraer Vius a long time ago. I think rogues all had primal and monks had primal+. Warriors had assorted weapons. They get so damn many. heh
Monk 55.5
Monk 55.3
Monk 62.7
Rogue 85.4
Rogue 80.2
Rogue 80.2
Warrior 46.2
Warrior 41.6
Warrior 42.2
Another IV fight. Some upgrades lots of tunare daggers.
Monk 54.8
Monk 59.8
Monk 59.5
Rogue 92.6
Rogue 92.3
Rogue 84.2
Warrior 45.4
Warrior 48.7
Warrior 44.2<hr></blockquote>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Monk 51.549 78.8 ( Fangs + Prismatic )
Monk 47.684 73.3 ( Gharns + GMU ? )
Monk 47.498 72.4 ( thats me, using a Caens )
Rogue 42.291 66.4 ( Tendonslicer + Primal )
Monk 43.191 65.8
Ranger 41.392 64.5
Monk 40.228 63.1 ( Fangs + Fist of Mithril )
Rogue 39.438 61.0
Monk 39.130 60.2
Rogue 37.245 59.6
Warrior 38.556 59.5
Ranger 37.070 58.8 ( Claw of Vyz'Drah + Primal )
Monk 37.016 58.4
Monk 37.032 58.2
Rogue 36.778 56.4
Ranger 35.791 55.1 ( Claw of Vyz'Drah + Vyz'Drahs Render of Souls )
Ranger 33.829 53.1
Beastlord+warder 34.038 52.6
Warrior 25.199 52.5 ( joined the fight 3 minutes late )
SK 31.897 51.3 ( Emp 2hs )
Paladin 29.217 49.7
Paladin 24.961 39.06
Monk 23.395 37.4
Warrior 24.315 36.5 ( Maintank, BF + BoC? )
SK 23.586 36.2 ( Blindfoe )
Mageepicpet 10.487 34.8 ( joined late )
Warrior 22.656 34.6 ( Rampagetank )
SK 19.167 33.3
Mageepicpet 20.230 32.9
Spectrepet 11.053 23.17 ( joined late )
Spectrepet 13.420 20.9
<hr></blockquote>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Player Damage DPS
Rogue 99,368 69.83
Rogue 90,013 64.71
Rogue 85,917 60.38
Paladin 69,604 49.40 Greater Akheva Bane
Warrior 45,053 49.13
Monk 63,923 46.12
Monk 56,407 44.80
Ranger 56,545 44.28
Ranger 61,702 44.04
Ranger 62,256 43.75
Warrior 52,330 36.85 Main Tank
Warrior 11,172 35.13
Paladin 48,315 34.58
Paladin 48,770 34.37
ShadowK 46,480 32.78
Paladin 40,413 29.43
Warrior 39,771 28.05
Bard 39,770 27.97
Warrior 38,612 27.17 Rampage Tank
Bard 35,068 26.03
Bard 5,932 23.17
Bard 30,317 21.32
Beastlord 19,780 15.22 <hr></blockquote>
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fop oodzo@monklybusiness43508>Fopoodzo</A> at: 10/28/02 2:36:21 pm
How does the idea get in your head that monks outdamage rogues? You said..
"Rogues = Short term damage by definition, and many BS's miss or dont hit over 200 for your average rogue...Now we add the Kicks, claws...etc that a rogue does NOT get and you have a long term damage machine VS a short term damage machine...Long term, for most of PoP now, is favored over the short term rogues..."
Damn when i was in my lower 50's i saw alot of rogues around me BS'ing for more then that. Ok, without flamming, i am going to say whats wrong with your reasoning. You dont tell us how you know this information. You play a 51monk? Theres still alot about monks you dont know then. Now your preaching to us about rogue damage? Do you have a rogue? How do you know how rogue damage works? from another rogue? How many rogues? Infact, you need to tell us what characters you have. OH and one thing, im still waiting for the links to the qoute you said VI said.
<div style="text-align:center">Sionistic Triplefist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=139385)
58 Monk
Veeshan</div></p>
"The monk is .. the best fighting class in the game in terms of dealing out damage over time...Monks dish out some incredible damage, since they get dual wield and double attack very early, resulting in many attacks per round. No other tank class can match them at this. "
Your telling me Verant lied about this, or none of you can be this good?
I can also pull up the best weapons in the game that blow rogues away...or you can do it for yourself...www.eqprices.com
everquest.allakhazam
</p>
[/quote]"The monk is .. the best fighting class in the game in terms of dealing out damage over time...Monks dish out some incredible damage, since they get dual wield and double attack very early, resulting in many attacks per round. No other tank class can match them at this. "
Your telling me Verant lied about this, or none of you can be this good?[/quote]
Hrm you mean that there was a possibility that the original form of SU3 was unbalancing in PoP and had to be adjusted? Naaaa that did not happen...
You mean now after 3+ years they all of a sudden decided we mitigate to well.
Time after time we can point out where VI does not know there game as well as the people that play it do.
Dual Wild and Double Atack closes in the 50+ game. The differantal's do not stand out at that point. Remember also that comment was added in BEFORE they had to move monks to a different damage table, becuase we were not doing enough damage. Even with those marvolus weapons. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
<div style="text-align:center">There are days I say, Give me the Blue Pill
Clirion Darkmoor
Grandmaster
Dragon Council Bertoxx</div>
</p>
Tempur
10-28-2002, 06:36 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>"The monk is .. the best fighting class in the game in terms of dealing out damage over time...Monks dish out some incredible damage, since they get dual wield and double attack very early, resulting in many attacks per round. No other tank class can match them at this. "<hr></blockquote>
/boggle
ok....lets try this again.
#1 VI isn't always right. oftentimes they are wrong.
#2 that was probably written pre-kunark and rogues weren't the DPS machines they are now.
#3 if you get dual wield and double attack at lvl 1 and i get them at lvl 15 by lvl 30 we will be equal assuming we have the same skill caps.
#4 backstab > flying kick in damage
#5 since i don't have the best weapons in the game i have to go by the average weapons that a monk is using as compared to the average rogue. the top 1% or so of toons have access to the best weapons in game. the rest of us make do.
did that help clear things up?
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=67354>Tempur Flarin</a> - The Maniac Monk
Vitam Aeternam
You want me to pull WHAT?</p>
Fopoodzo
10-28-2002, 06:38 PM
I think he/she's just being stupid on purpose.
Monks outdamage rogues. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
(perhaps in early levels if equally twinked out, but in later levels and certainly post 50.... bah!)
</p>
Tempur
10-28-2002, 06:52 PM
heh heh monks outdamage rogues all the way up to lvl 10. all of the bull misinformation running around is starting to bother me. people wander around whining that monks are out-tanking warriors and outdamaging rogues and god forbid we can solo better than someone.
i have average gear. pretty good in a couple spots but all in all average. an equal lvl warrior that was also wearing decent gear had maybe 50ac less than i but over 1000hp more. obviously he would make a better tank with a chealing cleric. a rogue with equivalent weapons will outdamage me easily due to backstab. neither class could solo effectively though in average gear. monks WERE balanced. we weren't the best damage dealers nor the best tanks but we could do both well enough to solo or fill in for either in a group.
it gets my back up when somebody shows up and starts spouting off information that anyone who has REALLY played a monk knows to be incorrect. the best is mentioning a weapon that has dropped once on test i believe. if you can't support an arguement with valid facts don't even try.
maybe i'm getting a little wound up and shouldn't be. the continued ignorance by people who don't even play the class is really starting to get under my skin though. maybe i need a vacation.
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=67354>Tempur Flarin</a> - The Maniac Monk
Vitam Aeternam
You want me to pull WHAT?</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Monk is a pulling class~ FACT
Monk has feign, and should not be Ma in any situation because of low Hit points ~ FACT
The game has been changed to be more strategic ~ FACT
Strategy implies a group Effort ~ FACT
ALL that was lost was Ac in the nerf ~ FACT
Most monks HAD more ac than most 60 warriors, and that accounted to their solo ability ~ FACT
Now they bitch and moan that they can't solo when PoP is a guild/group ONLY oriented expansion... ~ FACT
<hr></blockquote>
"Monk has feign, and should not be Ma in any situation because of low Hit points ~ FACT"
Hmm Common pickup group, Monk, Necro, Mage, Wizard, Beast, Rogue ... Who should be MA?
A Plate MA/T is preferred in almost any situation even before patch, but "in any situation' is pretty big words for a 'fact'
"Strategy implies a group Effort ~ FACT"
Strategy: the art of devising or employing plans or stratagems toward a goal
Stratagem: an artifice or trick in war for deceiving and outwitting the enemy
Plesae show me that 'fact' that says that is a group. While I will not deny that SOE wants groups, 'Strategy implies a group effort ~Fact" is false. In fact the smaller the force the 'more' strategy that most be applied to win the fight, take all the way to its most logical conclusion of 1 character (I.E Solo) needs the best stratagem to defeat his opponent.
"ALL that was lost was Ac in the nerf ~ FACT"
Umm my AC did not change, my mitigation factor plummented like the Spruce Goose
"Most monks HAD more ac than most 60 warriors, and that accounted to their solo ability ~ FACT"
Ok most (by defination 51% or more), of monks (level 1-65) have more AC than a 60 warrior? Statement is a little general to be a 'FACT'
Now if you meant most 60 monks have more ac than most 60 warriors I would begin to ceede that point, but would still want to see some honest to good serverwide figures from SOE. But even still most here on the boards have not argued that some change might not have been needed at the highest levels. where the problem is, what about levels 1-59 with none NToV+ gear .....
I can only speak from the persepective of a level 51 halfing warrior and a level 55 human monk, my monk is ac 1068 warrior is 1054, and my monk has a lot more expensive (being main) gear and more no drop /earned. The warrior is honestly a full on twink, and has that ac at about 1/3 the cost of the monks buyable gear.
"Now they bitch and moan that they can't solo when PoP is a guild/group ONLY oriented expansion... ~ FACT"
Hmm first if I could still solo in Old world (for blue mobs), Kunark, Vellious, Luclin I would not complain.
Second of all, my friends level 54 wizard was soloing nicely in the Plane of Diesease if a group is not pulling his camp, So PoP is NOT guild/group ONLY. In fact SOE has in several of their announcement mentioned 'solo characters' and warned adviced that they might want to carry gate potions (not in some many words).
Goodbye to most of your 'Facts' most are opinions at best, and false for a lot of them.
Laughing Owl
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
the hands acquire shaking,
the shaking becomes a warning,
it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
</p></p>
Monks outdamage rogues?
What kind of freaking gimps you play with?!
</p>
Wubao
10-29-2002, 01:21 AM
Since he's only quoted SoE's VAGUE patch statement, AND Verant's "official" BS line about what our class is ... he's obviously rather new to the game (or at least the mechanics behind the game).
So I'd say cut him some slack.
"Your telling me Verant lied about this, or none of you can be this good?"
I think we're telling you Verant makes GENERAL statements that aren't really TRUE about how the game really works, because: 1) They do not know much about the actual implementation of their game until the players go out and implement it on a large scale (hence the reason for patches) ... and 2) Their "VISION" for the classes and the way the game works never did work out that way.
"I can also pull up the best weapons in the game that blow rogues away...or you can do it for yourself...www.eqprices.com"
/sigh
Monk weapons have amazing ratios and the like.
Of course parses from the monks using THESE weapons show rogues outdamaging them by about 30 dps, time and time again.
It has a lot to do with backstab, and the insane damage boost rogues get from it.
Which is cool. It's what rogues do. They backstab. A lot. And they parse some great DPS.
They certainly are head and shoulders above monk DPS.
And as a monk who plays a warrior ... allow me to throw some facts at you about the meatshield portion of EQ's classes and their AC ...
"Most monks HAD more ac than most 60 warriors, and that accounted to their solo ability ~ FACT"
Most WARRIORS have more AC at 60 than monks LONG before Monks catch up in the very end of Velious and the very top encounters in Luclin.
Your average joe blow warrior can hit the mythical AC softcap in Thurg/Kael/Skyshrine armor.
The new cultural armours make this even more prevalent for non-uber warriors.
Warrior AC is just fine.
Anyways, welcome to EQ young grasshoppa. Show some patience and some perseverence. Play past level 42 with your monk and rack up some fun experiences ... and all of this will come to you in time.
-Wu
P.S. HEYA TEMPUR!!!!!!!! Just thought I'd point something out to you about warriors close to your level ...
Snoggy DPS > Tempur DPS!
:P HAHAHAHAHAHAH!
</p>
So...wait a second...your about to tell me that the damage of either class is non-situational? That a rogue hits EVERY time and Bs's for Crits and Doubles EVERY FIght? OR that the monk dosn't once in a while surpass the rogue?...That is the fact gentlemen...Damage, contrary to popular belief IS SITUATIONAL, we cannot base it on 1 or 4 different situations as we endure thousands upon thousands of them.
Fists of Nature
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Damage: 15
Delay: 18
Ratio: 1.2 Amazing
AC: +15 Str: +5 Sta: +15 Magic Resist: +10 Fire Resist: +10 Cold Resist: +10 Poison Resist: +7 Disease Resist: +7 HP: +100
Weight: 0.6
Weapon Skill: Hand to Hand
Classes: Beastlord Monk
Races: Vah Shir Iksar Ogre Troll Barbarian Human
Inventory Slot: Either Melee
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Damage: 16
Delay: 21
Ratio: 1.312 Amazing
Str: +15 Sta: +5 Dex: +10 Magic Resist: +20 HP: +100
Weight: 1.0
Weapon Skill: Piercing
Classes: Rogue
Races: All Races
Inventory Slot: Either Melee
...now these are 2 of the best weapons in the game...monks is better...notice that i can put a better ratio in offhand like 16/19...still wonder
</p>
Yah.. lemme just head up to Plane of Growth.. solo Tunare, and loot these:
Fists of Nature
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Damage: 15
Delay: 18
Ratio: 1.2 Amazing
AC: +15 Str: +5 Sta: +15 Magic Resist: +10 Fire Resist: +10 Cold Resist: +10 Poison Resist: +7 Disease Resist: +7 HP: +100
Weight: 0.6
Weapon Skill: Hand to Hand
Classes: Beastlord Monk
Races: Vah Shir Iksar Ogre Troll Barbarian Human
Inventory Slot: Either Melee
Because obviously that one weapon has a balancing factor.. gee, why didn't I think about that? A God dropping a good weapon?! Okay, back to reality.. even a tranquil staff is sometimes hard to get due to the fact people sell them for 40-60k, and the fact that the rest of the monk gear is insanely expensive in comparison to what other classes get. Quit pulling out uber weapon stats, this isn't about the top end monk, it's about the AVERAGE one.
</p>
Since monks aren't allowed to take hits anymore, they must stand behind a riposting mob, which makes their damage situational as well. First post to this thread, last post to this thread. In fact, I ain't even going to read the damn thing anymore. It's like watching someone trying to dig a hole in the ocean.
</p>
Fopoodzo
10-29-2002, 09:30 AM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>OR that the monk dosn't once in a while surpass the rogue?...<hr></blockquote>
If a monk and rogue were soloing and the rogue didn't have chaotic stab and wasn't very skilful at strafing around the mob for a backstab, then yes. (although with chaotic stab they'd come close)
But what IS a monk supposed to be? SUPREME face to face damage dealer, if monks didn't have that (and frankly it's not by a very large percent over a warrior or several hybrids) then what should monks have?
Are you really saying monks shouldn't be the best (albeit by a small margin these days - which in light of the defensive nerf is the <span style="text-decoration:underline">unbalanced</span> factor a lot of monks are complaining about) toe to toe/face to face damage dealer? /boggle
But give a rogue a group, or just the back of a mob and they'll always crank out more damage than a monks (barring stupidity like L10 comparisons).
And frankly as Lidayne says, post mitigation nerf you'll find more and more that monk damage is situational in a slightly milder manner to rogues.
Yet post nerf monks are NOT doing anymore damage and are NOT any closer in damage to rogues.
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fop oodzo@monklybusiness43508>Fopoodzo</A> at: 10/29/02 5:34:11 am
Whats your problem with rogue BS? First off i dont remember anyone saying rogues land ALL BS'es and do crits. Second that when you compare rogue weapons to monk weapons. You cant really, its like you dont even factor in backstab, BS is alot better then you think! Oh and one thing, TELL US HOW YOU KNOW YOUR INFO! Your not that credible till you do.
<div style="text-align:center">Sionistic Triplefist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=139385)
59 Monk
Veeshan</div></p>
Tempur
10-29-2002, 10:31 AM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>P.S. HEYA TEMPUR!!!!!!!! Just thought I'd point something out to you about warriors close to your level ...
Snoggy DPS > Tempur DPS!<hr></blockquote>
Super Twink warriors don't count! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b">
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=67354>Tempur Flarin</a> - The Maniac Monk
Vitam Aeternam
You want me to pull WHAT?</p>
I was wrong about the Facts thing, most of it is false, at the time those were what i believed...But, yet still...
Both those weapons came from the same god...I can pull weapons from Tov, weapons that cost 200pp, and I can still, beat ANY rogue DPS with the AVERAGE weapon...Any average monk, with epic, and even an fbss has MORE haste than any rogue...Period...Thats AVERAGE...Monk weapons have, substantially the best ratios in the game...and Rogue damage, regardless is just as substantial as a monk's or a paladin's...Monks, as i had earlier quoted...deal the most damage in the game...Allakhazam Updated their description AFTER the patch and IT STILL HAS THE SAME QUOTE...I can pull it from Casters realm...They all have the same basic idea...The monk is a MARTIAL CLASS, the ROGUE IS A SHORT TERM Damage DEALER ~~ both of those are substantial Facts that can be pulled off of websites at will!...
DAMAGE IS PURELY SUBSTANTIAL...That is a 100percent FACT...
Instead of petitioning and doing sit-ins, etc...You could've done what paladins did...send a general letter...you dont flame your employer so dont flame the game maker...You could've gotten responses but from what i see, over 25perent of you allready quit, and most likely, 10percent of that 25, quit prior to that patch...
</p>
/edit bah my post got hosed... not worth the effort to retype <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">
nm
________________
Awww pretty kitty *pet pet*... *growl* Zaaap! Aaaah The kitty cast lightning on me!! Ruuuuun..
Rayken Val`aRasha (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=93010) Savage Lord of the Fifth Circle of the Khati Sha
Proud member of Blood -n- Loyalty (http://www.bloodandloyalty.net)
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ray kenbnl>RaykenBnL</A> at: 10/29/02 8:43:37 am
Fopoodzo
10-29-2002, 01:17 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Monks, as i had earlier quoted...deal the most damage in the game...<hr></blockquote>
Ok you've got learning difficults, cannot read, comprehend numbers* or something.
(or as I said before you're simply TRYING to be stupid and/or trolling)
*62.85dps (warrior)
69.81dps (monk)
94.15dps (rogue)
</p>
Do you even know what backstab is? Do you even read numbers? Just because a site says something, doesnt mean that its right. I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over.
www.thesafehouse.org (http://www.thesafehouse.org)
Read it, someone there might know what backstab is.
<div style="text-align:center">Sionistic Triplefist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=139385)
59 Monk
Veeshan</div></p>
Tempur
10-29-2002, 02:54 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I was wrong about the Facts thing<hr></blockquote>
yes you were
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I can still, beat ANY rogue DPS with the AVERAGE weapon<hr></blockquote>
maybe if the rogue can't get behind the mob
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Any average monk, with epic, and even an fbss has MORE haste than any rogue...Period...Thats AVERAGE<hr></blockquote>
i'll give ya that one
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Monk weapons have, substantially the best ratios in the game<hr></blockquote>
apparently you haven't seen some of the pally/sk 1h weapons
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Monks, as i had earlier quoted...deal the most damage in the game<hr></blockquote>
*sigh* read the parses genius. if a rogue can get behind the mob, it will outdamage a monk fairly easily.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The monk is a MARTIAL CLASS, the ROGUE IS A SHORT TERM Damage DEALER<hr></blockquote>
exactly how long have you been playing this game? a rogue can sustain 90+ dps (Damage Per Second) indefinitely. there is no mana to consume...their weapon doesn't break....they can keep this up until the mob is dead. how the bloody hell is that short term damage? *sigh* once again i regret getting you started on rogues. you already dropped the ball on your knowledge of paladins and monks. why do you feel the need to prove you lack of knowledge about yet another class?
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=67354>Tempur Flarin</a> - The Maniac Monk
Vitam Aeternam
You want me to pull WHAT?</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tem pur>Tempur</A> at: 10/29/02 10:56:10 am
Ive seen a number of post saying that a monk can solo as well as a hybrid of comparable equipment. I find two major flaws with this statement. For one a monk is not a hybrid so why in the first place would/should or AC and defensive abilities be compared to one.
Secondly, I have a level 59 Beastlord and 60 Monk. The monk has FAR better equipment(and his epic) the beastlord does not. The beastlord can pull in Katta, The grey, SD, and a number of other zones effectively non-stop he is a soloing machine. My lvl 60 monk with epic and 15aaexp(BL has no aaexp) can barely solo a guard in Katta much less pull ten non-stop. People who leave messages on this thread derail were we are going and on top of it show their ignorance.
Jorantiz 60 monk Stormhammer
Skkoaal 59 BL Stormhammer
</p>
Lol, i swear to god you people cant read...Lets say the rogue DOSNT GET A BACKSTAB for an entire fight...And substantially, with duel wield using for formula fro Eq.Prices...or you can use Alla's...You add the ratios...as i previosly pointed out...and apparently it hasnt been quted yet becauser it was right...15/20 + 15/20 = potentially 30/20...or 14 + 27 + 14+27 = 28/27...you still beat 90 percent of epics...and rogue weapon DPS...Damage is Substantial...it can and cant hit...Monk weapons have the best DPS's because your expected to have an offhand...true both are purely substantial as is a ROGUES BACKSTAB but...monks still deal more damage skill wise...your notforgetting about tiger claw..+ more that cap at like 50 damage or flying kick that caps for 150? You use your abilities more often too mind you...so...what am i missing here? A rogue backstabs every time?
Im not after the DPS of one fight...in general rogues dont normally hit BS and in general when they do its avg is 120-200...Monks get to kick more often...A....Have more haste...B...And the weapon RATIOS have the highest DPS in the game ~~ You can look that up for yourself...
DPS for one fight is bullshit...you give me a hard average of 100 fights...Monk vs Rogue...and i will make you a bet monk dishes more...
Keamil Kindhearted
53rd Knight
www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=145322 newwindow] Muh Sutff (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=145322newwindow]MuhSutff)
Dragon Society</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kea milkindhearted00>KeamilKindhearted00</A> at: 10/31/02 7:02:50 am
KeamilKindhearted00,
Sorry havent slept yet, not sure I understand what your saying.
Are you suggesting monks out damage rogues?
Anyone want to give him the link to safehouse where he can "ask" the rogues how they come in second to monk dps, haha ;p
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=min ksar>Minksar</A> at: 10/31/02 7:08:22 am
Fopoodzo
10-31-2002, 11:15 AM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>KeamilKindhearted00,
Sorry havent slept yet, not sure I understand what your saying.
Are you suggesting monks out damage rogues?<hr></blockquote>
Basically yes.
/boggle, I know. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
</p>
I can present more facts to back up my claim and lay them down for you to judge for yourselves...Monks overall outdamage rogues...That statistic was from one fight, and as fights are substantial to other effects, etc...More than one fight is needed...
Keamil Kindhearted
53rd Knight
www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=145322 newwindow] Muh Sutff (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=145322newwindow]MuhSutff)
Dragon Society</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kea milkindhearted00>KeamilKindhearted00</A> at: 10/31/02 7:38:32 am
KeamilKindhearted00,
Take your "solid proof" to the safe house im sure those rogues would love to see it. Just think you might be able to nerf us again with it!!!
Better hurry before someone beats you to it ;p
I bet they'd all love you for it, all these years they thought they were the necromancers of melee (teehee)
They will sing songs about you, RAAR!!!
How you enlightend the entire rogue boards, how they are sooo clueless!
Please you must help the rogues!
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=min ksar>Minksar</A> at: 10/31/02 7:38:55 am
Srrak
10-31-2002, 12:17 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I can present more facts to back up my claim and lay them down for you to judge for yourselves...Monks overall outdamage rogues...That statistic was from one fight, and as fights are substantial to other effects, etc...More than one fight is needed...<hr></blockquote>
<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eek.gif ALT=":eek"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin">
Srrak Lhizzard
Lvl 47 Monk
Luclin
</p>
This thread made me laugh. HAHAHAHAHA
BTW guys did you know that I have conclusive proof that monks outdamage rogues in situations where the rogue takes the time to PP everything off the mob, never bothering to turn on attack, then moves to attacking but turns if off for 5 seconds while he evades, and if he forgot to add a hotkey for backstab and never uses it.
A great inner flame crit for me is about around 200 if I'm using HtH weapons. Saw a rogue with offensive up Crit a bs for almost 3k the other night. My thoughts were not: damm nerf the rogue. they were thank god he's on my side and helping me win this trial.
KK rogues outdamage monks in groups/raids in all situations, if you were to ask around you'd find almost all monks/rogues would agree with no qualifications. Trying to argue that monks outdamage rogues over time just loses any credibility.
Hiwei Brother of the Silent Fist</p>
It can A...Be proven that monk weapons have a hgiher dps ratio...B...It can be proven that monks have much more haste than a rogue...And C It can be proven that monks can statistically deal more combat damage than Rogues...
Now this can be proven...by factual evidence...I can use any items database you want or do it in game...The facts are what count and in the long term the monk out damages the rogue...
And also, ALL DAMAGE IN THIS GAME IS SITUATIONAL...which is why you cannot base all damage on ONE MOB...Thats stupidity...and you call me a child?...Ever take 6th grade science obviosly not, because all any of you have proven is that a "long term damage class" cannot equal the rogue in short term damage...I have also, several times stated that not only are monk ratios better and in the LONG term can deal more damage...
Keamil Kindhearted
53rd Knight
My Stuff (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=145322)
Dragon Society</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kea milkindhearted00>KeamilKindhearted00</A> at: 10/31/02 10:14:05 am
Wow, the knowledge or lack of it is fairly immense. I see parts in both sides that are ignorant. But here's what I see that hasn't been said.
First, monks are NOT a hard class to play. Paladins are NOT a hard class to play, its a choice between pressing FK, or Stun in a fight. Root parking, many a time I've moved the mob to be parked, and I have no doubt that paladins have done the same.
Second, NO class is hard to play once you get the rhythm. The hardest class to be is the Bard, hands down. And even that isn't all that tough once you have the rhythm. Try to argue, just level a bard some levels, or try a friends bard. They are quite complex.
Third, the "pulling" classes for EQ were initially meant to be rangers and bards. Both for their lull type spells. Bards in fact were much better pullers than monks or any other class from their lull spell they get at level 8. I said were because with the harmony change inadvertantly the bard lull got a cap put on it at level 30, which is supposed to be taken off soon. The reason they could pull so well, is bard songs scale with level, and a level 8 song at level 60 really reduces the aggro range on mobs, much quicker than trying to split.
Fourth, the ratios for all the classes were Rogue 1.4, Monk 1.2, Ranger 1.05, Warrior 1.0, Paladin/SK .8, Bards .65. Beastlords were later added and are on the bard damage table supposedly.
Fifth, yes, monks have the best 1h ratios in the game. The best being a 17/19. Rogues have some very good ratios for weapons but are restricted to being as close to 15 damage as the max. If they were much higher the backstabs would be immense.
Sixth, rogues can easily sustain a higher DPS than a monk with constant backstabbing. If they are not constantly backstabbing they have around the same DPS as a monk, only regulated by random factors such ass hit, miss, riposte, dodge and parry.
Seventh, the reason monks need/want midigation is that sometimes they do get hit and do have to tank for a little while before they can ditch aggro. Its the same reason that rogues want midigation, they can't not have aggro ALL of the time.
There's probally more to prove these points, but since I'm only 61 and not even a brother yet, I reserve the right to be wrong. Those are just my observations of this oh so fun to argue about game.
Gexkon (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=181160) GRANDMASTER
Solusek Ro </p>
Anyone who thinks rangers can't solo doesn't know rangers well. A 60 ranger solos better than any hybrid in the game...
Sensei Deirdre Sadiqa (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=192025)
Grandmistress of Tranquility
Warlords of Wrath
Crouching Tigress Training Dragons</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Monk is a pulling class~ FACT
Monk has feign, and should not be Ma in any situation because of low Hit points ~ FACT
The game has been changed to be more strategic ~ FACT
Strategy implies a group Effort ~ FACT
ALL that was lost was Ac in the nerf ~ FACT
Most monks HAD more ac than most 60 warriors, and that accounted to their solo ability ~ FACT<hr></blockquote>I'm all for reasoned debate, but these "FACT"s convince me that we're trying to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
Please, guys. Don't feed the trolls. If someone makes good points, respond to them. If someone is just trolling, ignore them.
Seske Corpse
52nd Level Monk
Luclin Server
Circle of Radiance Guild (http://www.angelfire.com/geek/jvriffel/eq.htm)
My Magelo Profile (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=337819)</p>
Look at it this way, you got the whole rogue community saying they can outdamage us. Then you have the whole monk community agreeing with them. Fuck, all the other communities agree too. But now gasp! One person says that monks outdamage rogues and they have proof... nice, about 100 more people have proof that we dont.
Your comparisons are hidiously out of balance, your reasoning is all around. You dont back up what you say. You dont back up your knowledge. You have no experience. You are a useless troll. Fuck off, this is the last time im responding to this thread, it needs to be locked for its complete uselessness.
<div style="text-align:center">Sionistic Triplefist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=139385)
59 Monk
Veeshan</div></p>
Tibbil I said statistically it can be done...were you to have graduated high-school you could do it too...not very hard...about algebra 1 level...
All damage is also situational so your telling me it never happens is just a load of Shit...All damage is situational...Am i saying monks always outdamage the rogue...No...I am saying Statistically it is a fact...You may not be able to "tank" anymore but, you can damn well do the math...If i need to show you how, i will happily...In fact...i've done it several times...Using 2 of the best monk items, and rogue items...also using 2 average monk items vs 2 average rogue items...I havnt seen any evidence that im wrong yet...so please...see if you can prove Alla and EQprices wrong...
Keamil Kindhearted
53rd Knight
My Stuff (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=145322)
Dragon Society</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kea milkindhearted00>KeamilKindhearted00</A> at: 10/31/02 1:11:16 pm
Fopoodzo
10-31-2002, 06:15 PM
Your entire argument, such as it is, revolves around monks getting better ratio weapons, am I correct?
(and therefore if a rogue doesn't use backstab a monk will outdamge them - which is a lot like saying a L30 warrior will out damage a L50 wizard, if the wizard doesn't uses spells, therefore warriors are OVERPOWERED!!!11 , but nevermind. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> )
You do understand why rogues don't get quite the same weapons as a monks don't you?
</p>
Wubao
10-31-2002, 08:19 PM
I said cut him some slack, cause he was a newb.
But he won't quit! He just won't QUIT!
"Im not after the DPS of one fight..."
For the entirety of a raid, a Rogue is BEHIND the mob, clicking backstab everytime it ungreys. It's what they do.
Thus for the entirety of the raid, the rogue SUSTAINS a higher DPS than the monk. That's the most basic premise you are missing about the class and the way it's played.
Rogues get in groups, and when they are in groups they get BEHIND the mobs that are fought and they backstab them.
It's SO FREAKIN SIMPLE, why can't you wrap your brain around it?
"in general rogues dont normally hit BS"
In general a rogue will hit BS every chance he or she gets. It's what they DO.
" and in general when they do its avg is 120-200"
Flying Kick doesn't come close to backstab in max damage, or in average damage. Rogue special attack > ALL monk special attacks.
"...Monks get to kick more often"
Do they? I've seen backstab refresh about as fast as flying kick.
"...A....Have more haste."
Here's another place where I think you've just not played this game long enough to catch on to the simplest of GAME MECHANICS.
Haste CAPS. You hit a certain percentage of haste at a particular level (pre 60 and post 60 it is different) and your haste can no longer go up. At all.
And in raid situations MONKS and ROGUES are at or NEAR their haste cap with the help of such things as the FBSS you mention and some seriously good enchanter haste.
In other words, monk haste = rogue haste in raid situations.
Monks achieve higher haste solo.
Rogues can't backstab solo.
So please, if this entire argument is based on soloing, just leave ... leave now.
Rogues don't solo much. And when they do, it's, well, it's unique.
"..B...And the weapon RATIOS have the highest DPS in the game ~~ You can look that up for yourself..."
Backstab + High damage Rogue weapons + Raid haste + Mobs having their back to rogue because WARRIOR is tanking it PROPERLY = the highest MELEE DPS in the game.
"DPS for one fight is bullshit...you give me a hard average of 100 fights...Monk vs Rogue...and i will make you a bet monk dishes more... "
Lordy this is annoying. For YEARS parses have shown Rogue DPS above and beyond any other melee class in the game.
Fight after fight after fight.
The tactic is simple. Tank TANKS. Mob faces TANK. Rogues BACKSTAB.
It's not hard to figure out.
Please ... just go to the safehouse and ask the rogues about thier DPS.
You obviously don't play a rogue or a monk very attentiviely to not have noticed these simple game mechanics. And I'm normally ok with that, and patient enough to take some time to explain them to the newer players.
But you persist in trolling about monk DPS with complete lies about the class and how it relates to rogues.
It's just annoying man.
Stop it.
-Wu
</p>
Nothing is wrong with monks.
Rika Frostheart (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=92011) <Hoss> Druzzil Ro</p>
Yes there is, 56 monk cant fight the same mob it did a week before the patch. Hoss is a big guild with good items, so how can u say monks where not changed. What about the other 10000 monks not in uber guilds with uber items.
Even a fungi did jack for me fighting the same light blue mob a week prior to the patch.
This patch hit the lower end monks 50-60 without many AA's to help.
I really enjoyed my monk, Now i dont know..
I take alot more damage now then in the past, i cant seem to find a place to solo.
Wochang
</p>
Tempur
10-31-2002, 11:15 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Nothing is wrong with monks<hr></blockquote>
naw, i figure everything looks real rosey with 1400ac and 5000hp. sorry but for those of us that aren't lvl 65 with uber gear its just a touch harder.
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=67354>Tempur Flarin</a> - The Maniac Monk
Vitam Aeternam
You want me to pull WHAT?</p>
The urbers turning around with 1400+ac and saying nothing is wrong is really starting to piss me off.
<hr />
<div>
Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=266873), Iksar Monk of Xev.
</div>
<div>
Dubious member of Hawkestone (http://pub72.ezboard.com/bhawkestone).
</div>
<div>
"I stare, it stares back.
I long to know its feelings.
It demurs. Lunch, then."
</div></p>
Pisses you off because??
Rika Frostheart (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=92011) <Hoss> Druzzil Ro</p>
If you think monks level 60 with 1400 ac don't feel a difference from the changes, then you are wrong. I feel it, and probably more than most. Sure I can tank a mob level 50 and below the same as I have before, but you know what? They are green now.. Fact is post 60 aside from some kiting classes, nobody solos. And while I'm left uneasy and feel a change tanking the mobs that give me exp now (hitting from 260 to 520) I feel the pain just like anyone fighting the stuff at the appropriate level. However, I am not a tank, if its slowed I can tank it, but last I checked, most anyone can tank a slowed mob that is the appropriate level.
Pulling well, I don't know what most people are pulling, but I can pull the entire zone of VT still, with no deaths, and hardly even get hit, and that's with no help or tagging from others, or very little. Even with all these changes, I still love monks and I would never switch my class, that's the difference between me and you. I refuse to bitch about it, because this is the class I like to play, and ill be damned if a ac nerf is gonna push me over the edge.
If you want to classify me or any monk with 1400 ac 5000 hps as uber then go right ahead. It's not as if I logged in one day and someone said here take this gear, I spent a lot of time on this game, and instead of screaming in a round about way to nerf the top end monks, why not try to get there yourself.
Sorry if I upset you, I'm not out to flame fellow monks, I love all of you and I think we are a great class, that has always stuck together for the most part. But this nerf obsession has got to stop somewhere.
Rika Frostheart (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=92011) <Hoss> Druzzil Ro</p>
Srrak
11-01-2002, 03:13 AM
Hi. I'm usually very quiet, but this, I must respond to.
Good for you aquiring all those items. Have it ever occured to you that there might be monks that are lower than lvl 50, without any guild, or without any AAexp to make up for anything? That there's those who's still trying to climb up the levels? Have you even watched a mid-level monk trying to pull, and get beat down to a pulp just because FD fail? Do you even remember that you actually were lower level than lvl 50? Well, anyway, there is those kinds around. I'm one of them, but since you who's lvl 65 and spent a lot of time aquiring your gear, I suppose you know how everything works for me after the mitigation (not ac) nerf.
One have to voice ones opinion. Nobody says that it'll change Sonys mind but yet, there is an itty, bitty chance of a change. Just nodding and accepting everything with a smile and 'Hey, there's absolutely nothing wrong with this, just nerf yet another class and alienate them completly. I'm doing just fine!' and forgetting about 90% of the rest, is frankly just plain selfish and will accomplish absolutely nothing.
Srrak Lhizzard
Lvl 47 Monk
Luclin
</p>
Im not just accepting anything, I just for 2 years listen to rogues and wizards bitch about how much they suck, and vowed id never go to that point myslef. I have a little more pride in my character than that, and feel that as a player i can overcome the nerf with a little ingenuity. Mostly what I hear lower level monks complaing they can't solo. Well neither can I, any mob that gets me exp you can bet i cant get it to 90% and im not talking light blue exp because thats just a waste anyway. This game doesn't revolve around ones ability to solo.. I think i understand the concept of a level 50 monk getting their ass kicked by a blue mob, as i have said before im level 65 and I totally get my ass kicked by blue mobs fully buffed, barely in time for a CH to hit me.
Rika Frostheart (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=92011) <Hoss> Druzzil Ro</p>
Fopoodzo
11-01-2002, 04:44 AM
Rika - play a new untwinked monk, on a new server, from L1 to at least the mid 50's POST NERF, then come back and say that.
I can see your point, but with that gear, your level, and undoubtedly all the AAXP mitigation bonues, the effect on you will be much milder.
Surely you can see that and see my point?
In fact it's pretty telling that even YOU say you can see noticable differences post nerf. Now imagine your current monk didn't have all those (ahem) mitigating factors, can you see who hard it would hit a less well equiped monk?
Actually a better way of lowering monk mitigation would have been to remove AAXP mitigation bonuses, which would have reduced mitigation where it was a problem (in the high end) without smacking monks with the worst gear the hardest from level 1 to level 65.
</p>
You think my gear didnt make me tank better and deal more damage than most other monks BEFORE the nerf? Its the same relative difference.
Rika Frostheart (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=92011) <Hoss> Druzzil Ro</p>
Don't get me wrong I think nerfing monks 55 and below was really lame. Specially since they dont have the access to the all/all type items from even ntov yet. So yes I know it is painful, but it all stems off the mindset that one is a monk, with a TS and Fungi therefore must solo (and i know everyone doesnt have these two items). By no means am I saying its good or that is has to be tolerable. Im saying personally that i choose to deal with it in a more classy manner than to curse VI and belittle them. I would be embarassed if I complained to my guild about nerfs. Its just not me. As much as I hate to see it happen. Perhaps i was trying to make myself feel better by saying there is nothing wrong with the monk class because i still love being a monk. But trust me i was just as upset when i heard about it as you were, and was even more pissed when i loggedin to test out mobs after the patch.
Rika Frostheart (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=92011) <Hoss> Druzzil Ro</p>
SkyKungfu
11-01-2002, 06:08 AM
People like Rika upset me more than those clueless, trolling warriors. You are a shame for the monk class.
Sky
</p>
Fopoodzo
11-01-2002, 08:12 AM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>You think my gear didnt make me tank better and deal more damage than most other monks BEFORE the nerf? Its the same relative difference. <hr></blockquote>
Undoubtedly (and that's fair enough, you've put the time in to get it), but it was only a small percentage of monks that could out tank warriors in certain situations, and what did VI do?
Nerf all monks from 1-65.
I don't like the mitigation nerf, but if there was an <span style="text-decoration:underline">endgame</span> problem that VI had to address through reducing monk mitigation (and in all honesty there probably was), then why did they go about it the worst way possible?
(basically using a bazooka when they needed a scaple?)
Most monks now have lesser gear AND the mitigation nerf to contend with, which takes a lot of the fun out of the game for a lot of people. :/
</p>
Tempur
11-01-2002, 01:17 PM
Rika, my point was with AC you have, you are well over the softcap. any changes that you feel from the mitigation change are going to be mild compared to what a monk in average gear is feeling. i know that you have worked hard to get the lvls and gear that you have and i respect what you have achieved. your gear is excellent. those of us that don't have access to gear like that are hurting right now though. in effect, 1400ac nerfs the mitigation nerf.
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=67354>Tempur Flarin</a> - The Maniac Monk
Vitam Aeternam
You want me to pull WHAT?</p>
You are wrong Tempur.
The changes effect us more than you could know.
We are pulling and fighting mobs that hit exponentially harder than the average monks.
If you are pulling mobs that hit for 350s to 400s and you feel the difference, imagine what kind of sick ass kicking we are taking if we let the mobs we are pulling hit us when they are hitting for 700+ and flurrying.
The difference is that we have learned ways to deal with things like that because even prenerf, if you got hit and stunned you are dead no questions. SO DON'T GET HIT.
On soloing...
Yes we still feel the nerf just as much but like I stated above, we have found ways to get around it. Yes the mitigation nerf sucks but join a guild and get some gear. All VI did is make the monk even MORE gear dependant. Welcome to the rest of the melee classes out there who have the same plight.
The nerf sucks but we will survive. Well at least the strong willed ones will. If you are not a strong willed monk, you wouldn't make it to the top anyway. There is lots of competition.
Rhizzen Khillahpriest <Darkblood>
54 Necromancer of Innoruuk
Sol Ro
Sensai Ssoulz Jah <Darkblood>
60 Grandmaster of Cazic Thule
Sol Ro
<div style="text-align:center">
Ssoulz Stuffz (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=405138)
http://www.thedragonseye.net/eq/Sensei%20Ssoulz%20signature.jpg
</div></p>
Rika we play on the same server. Come watch a blue mob rip my 1080AC/2500HP self a new one. No, the nerf isn't affecting you proportionately as it is affecting me.
I enjoy grouping. I can't always group. I have a family, a job, a mortgage, etc. all of which take higher priority than EQ. Therefore I solo quite a bit. With the mitigation nerf I can't effectively do that. Ergo, for me and my style of play, the mitigation nerf effectively ended my EQ career.
For you its different. I'm happy for you. But you need to try to see things from other people's perspective. Especially when everything Sony said about the mitigation nerf seemed to indicate that it was targeted at players like you and not players like me.
--
Stonetooth Sleestak
60 Iksar Monk
Druzzil Ro
</p>
Keamil Kindhearted,
Just wanted to thank you for giving my guild a good laugh and joking session this morning. I put your comments into Guildchat, and all were greatly amused.
BTW the Rogue does not beleive you, as a matter of fact, he belives he can get close to my damage from the front compliments of his weapons and the poisons he can use. The Ranger Swears she can out damage me in some situations, and the Paladin swears they can outdamage me on Undead.
I beleive them all, because they have proven it time and time again. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
<div style="text-align:center">There are days I say, Give me the Blue Pill
Clirion Darkmoor
Grandmaster
Dragon Council Bertoxx</div>
</p>
Fopoodzo
11-01-2002, 02:02 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The nerf sucks but we will survive. Well at least the strong willed ones will. If you are not a strong willed monk, you wouldn't make it to the top anyway. There is lots of competition.<hr></blockquote>
A lot of people don't play monks to be at the top, they play one to have fun and enjoy the game (and that fun is severely reduced by the mitigation nerf.)
I think this difference in attitude is maybe as much why the uber monks are not as bothered by the nerf as to more casual monk.
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fop oodzo@monklybusiness43508>Fopoodzo</A> at: 11/1/02 10:04:26 am
Rika has been very patient with all of you whiners. Much more so than me.
You rock Rika. Don't let the newbie cry babies who still haven't figured out what a monk is get you down.
You guys want to beat up on your fellow monks WHO ARE where you want to go? Those same monks who are trying to tell you that there is light at the end of the tunnel? The same monks who will still be monks, still doing what us monks do when you are off making another character because you can't hang...
Go ahead. Quit. I want you too. The reason we were nerfed by VI is just as much due to the over population of monks as much as what ever perceived overpowering we have. Monks were given all the things they have and had before the nerf because before that stuff was given out, monks were not a popular class.
And if you want to beat up on someone. Please beat up on me. I am a glutton for punishment.
We feel this nerf the same as you. It is a scaled nerf across the board. It doesn't only effect the low and mid range monks. It effects ALL the monks equally.
Your bitching and moaning is making the class I love look like a bunch of whining babies. I hate these nerfs. But guess what? It's not going to make me stop playing my monk.
Trying to discount our word because we have better gear doesn't hide or lessen the weight or reality of our opinion. It only shows that you are mad and want to stay mad no matter what anyone says or does short of lifting the nerf.
Guess what. Posting on this board whining isn't going to get the nerf lifted.
Rhizzen Khillahpriest <Darkblood>
54 Necromancer of Innoruuk
Sol Ro
Sensai Ssoulz Jah <Darkblood>
60 Grandmaster of Cazic Thule
Sol Ro
<div style="text-align:center">
Ssoulz Stuffz (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=405138)
http://www.thedragonseye.net/eq/Sensei%20Ssoulz%20signature.jpg
</div></p>
Damage of all classes is purely situational...All levels, skills etc...of you and the mob are taken into account ~~ You will never have the same exact damage output on the same mob...Never...That is a fact of statistics...Is it possible...Note i said Possible...for a monk to outdamage a rogue? F*ck yes...Is it possible for a paladin to out-damage a rogue...F*ck yes...ALL damage is situational...I dont care if the rogue is on its @$$ and has poison...Monk weapons are statistically better ~~ For that i can say FACT...and prove it...17dmg 19dly 1h + offhand fist 15/20 is nearly a 32/20 ratio...offhand and onhand...+ Crits + Kicks, etc...
Now, from those that have responded to this post i have seen from what i think is your problem and that is Lack of "damage Mitigation" and damage output...I understand your "solo" issues but, no one 60+ solos anymore (as of monday i think is patch for PoV summoning mobs) and you lack a complete damage output...I can understand that...But, Instead of quitting and signing petitions...Use their information against them...All of these quotes i have used are from them...all of these stats and abilites are from them...If you clearly want change...Have everyone send a true email...Not a flame, send them your true feedback, from all of you...THAT will get change, not quitting like a coward and running away...
</p>
Oh yes. I am a troll during work hours. I love controversy.
Gibbor me something to do. Flame me please.
Perhaps it will get you guys' minds off of how miserable your eq life has become.
Rhizzen Khillahpriest <Darkblood>
54 Necromancer of Innoruuk
Sol Ro
Sensai Ssoulz Jah <Darkblood>
60 Grandmaster of Cazic Thule
Sol Ro
<div style="text-align:center">
Ssoulz Stuffz (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=405138)
http://www.thedragonseye.net/eq/Sensei%20Ssoulz%20signature.jpg
</div></p>
So drama-queen Rhizzen~
I couldn't give a fook about the light at the end of the tunnel. I only play EQ as a fun diversion from real life. Why can't you accept that not every Monk *wants* to be you?
The Monk class used to be a great casual player class.. decent in a group, decent soloer (nowhere near a necro, druid, wiz, mage). That went out the window with the nerfs. Don't like hearing people complain about having the rug pulled out from under them? Don't visit the damn forum set aside specifically for that purpose! Lol, imagine that.
Get over yourself bud. One year from now EQ will winding to a halt. Mark my words, as EQ2 (and to a lesser extent SWG) roll out, Sony is gonna go out of their way to "encourage" you to upgrade. Where will your uber-lewt be then bro?
--
Stonetooth Sleestak
60 Iksar Monk
Druzzil Ro
</p>
Pokiri
11-01-2002, 02:31 PM
Keamil = EQ developer?
</p>
Tempur
11-01-2002, 02:37 PM
Rhizzen, I wasn't saying that the nerf didn't have an effect on the higher end monks. However, it is lessened to an extent by extremely good gear. If I had 1100ac at my lvl, then I wouldn't notice the increaced damage as much as I do. Just as the nerf scales across the lvls, so does the effect of proportionally better equipment. If you check some of the posts by monks with roughly 1300ac and above, they admit that the nerf didn't hit them as hard.
I personally have a lot of respect for those who have taken the time and effort to lvl to 60+ and do the raids to earn such gear. They deserve the gear that they have and I do not begrudge it to them. I didn't feel it necessary to thow that out in my earlier posts because I didn't think that what I said would be taken as "beating up on a fellow monk".
Yes, I am mad. I'm mad at SOE for changing a fundamental part of my toon. I'm mad at all of the idiots that have come out of the woodwork to celebrate the monk nerf. I hope that I haven't come off as whining. I have tried to present reasonable arguements in my posts although they may very well be laced with sarcasm.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Trying to discount our word because we have better gear doesn't hide or lessen the weight or reality of our opinion.<hr></blockquote>
I do not discount your word. I know you guys have worked hard to get the lvls and gear you have just as I have worked hard to get the lvls and gear that I have. Try not to discount my word because I haven't acheived those lvls or gear yet.
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=67354>Tempur Flarin</a> - The Maniac Monk
Vitam Aeternam
I have come to kick ass and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of bubblegum.</p>
Tempur
11-01-2002, 02:43 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Keamil = EQ developer<hr></blockquote>
no but just as clueless.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Is it possible...Note i said Possible<hr></blockquote>
its possible for a lvl 1 wizard to outmelee a lvl 65 monk....situationally of course. the situation being the monk never turns autoattack on.
his comparisons are useless. his facts are either skewed or wrong. he refuses to listen to reason. i give up....he wins.
EDIT: Original post didn't have quite enough sarcasm.
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=67354>Tempur Flarin</a> - The Maniac Monk
Vitam Aeternam
I have come to kick ass and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of bubblegum.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tem pur>Tempur</A> at: 11/1/02 10:47:28 am
/sigh Denelor
The point is, it's not about uber loot.
That was all you guys introducted to this argument. Some of us tried to tell you the nerf effected all monks equally. Instead you want to discount our opinions because of the loot we have. You made it about loot not us.
After playing this game for 3 years, I am still behind others as far as loot goes. That is because I stayed with my friends in a guild that we helped build. We weren't power gamers, we still aren't. We slowly build up what we have earned, the reputation we have as a guild on our server without selling our souls and friends out to the best equipped guild of power gamers. We do our best not to step on other people's toes. When they move on a mob and have sufficient force, we do our best not to race them but allow them to have a go at the mob. We frown on SEQ. We frown on anything that takes away from learning and enjoying your OWN accomplishments.
Believe it or not I am somewhere between a casual gamer and a power gamer. I am an extreme soloist. I solo probably about 70% of my time playing EQ. 20% of that time is spent raiding (more than that lately), 10% is grouping. If anyone was hurt by this nerf it was me. In light of this, I am not going to allow the rest of you to turn the class I love into a whining bunch of babies.
Do I understand your plight? Yes, more than you know. I went through a similar situation way back when they made me give up my necro because of the nerfs. I promised myself I wouldn't be doing that again.
Posting on this board whining isn't going to change anything. Incase you haven't noticed, the EQ team never like soloing. They have been trying to nerf soloing for a long time but they keep getting bitten by the average paying player so soloing stays around. If you want to do something constructive, realize that bitching and moaning on this board isn't going fix anything.
Atleast I am man enough to admit I come here to argue to keep myself entertained. Admit that to yourself and maybe then you will actually do something constructive other than coming to this board to belly ache.
As far as getting over myself? No thanks I love to show off and be vain. I love to argue and match wits. I'll keep entertaining myself as needed but unlike you I won't fool myself into thinking I am actually doing something constructive.
Because you are not.
Tempur,
Point well taken. Trust me, I do not discount your opinion. I just want you to know that it hurt us all equally. I don't think you understand that. We all hurt from it. It's just that the attitude you have toward the game is what will pull you through it. It hurts bro I know it but arguing and complaining here is not going to fix it.
If you guys really want to do something constructive. Get together and pool some logs. Create some controlled environments and log it. Then pool the logs and have someone analyze it. Turn it into a small project, find people who are willing to do a part and send the results to Sony Development team. Use that data to show a point. Make that point revolve around how the nerf so badly hurt the casual player. You are a paying customer. If presented properly, no one will have any other choice but to listen.
Personally, I'd rather spend my time gaining AA exp, levels, and gear to compensate.
Rhizzen Khillahpriest <Darkblood>
54 Necromancer of Innoruuk
Sol Ro
Sensai Ssoulz Jah <Darkblood>
60 Grandmaster of Cazic Thule
Sol Ro
<div style="text-align:center">
Ssoulz Stuffz (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=405138)
http://www.thedragonseye.net/eq/Sensei%20Ssoulz%20signature.jpg
</div></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rhi zzen>Rhizzen</A> at: 11/1/02 11:00:29 am
Fopoodzo
11-01-2002, 03:05 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Atleast I am man enough to admit I come here to argue to keep myself entertained. Admit that to yourself and maybe then you will actually do something constructive other than coming to this board to belly ache.
As far as getting over myself? No thanks I love to show off and be vain. I love to argue and match wits. I'll keep entertaining myself as needed but unlike you I won't fool myself into thinking I am actually doing something constructive.<hr></blockquote>
So 'whining' about a change to a game a player likes, which the nerf has severely impacted on its fun is <span style="text-decoration:underline">WRONG</span>.
Yet purely trolling for your own (misguided) pleasure is <span style="text-decoration:underline">OK</span>.
(you must be an absolute delight to get on with in RL)
For some reason I don't think that's the way to get people to respect what you say, can't imagine why.
</p>
Tempur
11-01-2002, 03:15 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>but arguing and complaining here is not going to fix it<hr></blockquote>
*grins* i tried arguing over at the Safehouse though and the threads kept disappearing.
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=67354>Tempur Flarin</a> - The Maniac Monk
Vitam Aeternam
I have come to kick ass and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of bubblegum.</p>
Fopoodzo,
lol who cares if you respect what I say.
It's honest and true. That is enough for me to sleep at night.
Notice how you took a snippet out of that whole post and conviently forgot to comment on the important stuff.
You think picking out that piece of that post and responding is making you look any better? Please, I know my purpose is misguided. I am not fooling myself into thinking I am doing anything worthy of anything more than my own entertainment.
What about you?
Seems to me like you like to argue also.
So what do you think? Christians, Catholics, Muslims, or Agnostics? Who is right? I mean since you want to debate.
Give me something to argue about.
Rhizzen Khillahpriest <Darkblood>
54 Necromancer of Innoruuk
Sol Ro
Sensai Ssoulz Jah <Darkblood>
60 Grandmaster of Cazic Thule
Sol Ro
<div style="text-align:center">
Ssoulz Stuffz (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=405138)
http://www.thedragonseye.net/eq/Sensei%20Ssoulz%20signature.jpg
</div></p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The point is, it's not about uber loot.<hr></blockquote>
It is, was, and always will be about loot, where a Verant-designed game is concerned. Thats all they know. Took me 3.5 years to figure that out, even with other players screaming it at me on message boards going all the way back to the original Whineplay.
If all I do is make a few other folks realize this too, then I will consider that doing something constructive.
EQ is the equivalent of collecting those pewter figurines that you see advertised on late night TV. Limited edition, collectors edition, engraved by the artist, blah blah. Collect it now because its only available for a limited time. Of course they keep cycling in new items to collect so that there is always something you don't have.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Atleast I am man enough to admit I come here to argue to keep myself entertained. Admit that to yourself and maybe then you will actually do something constructive other than coming to this board to belly ache.<hr></blockquote>
Oh, I dunno.. not sure I would call you a man just for posting on a message board <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">
As for me, I didn't think I needed to say it but of course I'm just here to entertain myself. I've already cancelled my account, and posted that to the cancelled accounts thread.
I really couldn't care less if Sony un-nerfs Monks, since it doesn't affect me now. But I completely disagree with you that the nerf affected all equally. Do you still solo? If so its because your gear is good enough. My gear used to be good enough, but now isn't. I never played this game to chase gear and have no interest in doing so now.
Your opinions of me as a person are irrelevant. But by all means, enjoy yourself by insulting my manhood. I couldn't care less about that either <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> It takes a certain type of person to get his jollies off personal attacks.
--
Stonetooth Sleestak
60 Iksar Monk
Druzzil Ro
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The changes effect us more than you could know.
We are pulling and fighting mobs that hit exponentially harder than the average monks.
If you are pulling mobs that hit for 350s to 400s and you feel the difference, imagine what kind of sick ass kicking we are taking if we let the mobs we are pulling hit us when they are hitting for 700+ and flurrying.
The difference is that we have learned ways to deal with things like that because even prenerf, if you got hit and stunned you are dead no questions. SO DON'T GET HIT<hr></blockquote>
Actually I think Rhizzen hit on a really good point here. The monks pulling the high-end game are the best of the best pulling-wise (generally speaking, I'm sure there are plenty of excellent non-uber guild pullers). A lot of the monks getting hit the hardest by this nerf are the 40's-50's monks, many of whom are still learning the tricks of the trade, so to speak.
The problem is VI took away our margin for error.
Suddenly an awful lot of monks who haven't really gotten to the point where they are 'expert' pullers need to be expert to survive, or at least to be efficient pullers in an XP group. Where before the patch we could survive a mistake or a failed FD or 2 - now every pull has to be perfect, or its rez time. And for many monks, especially those PL'ed or twinked, its a rude awakening.
For you guys on the high-end, that's been the case for you for a long time. You guys have gotten to where you are because if you couldn't figure out every pulling trick in the book (hell, or write the book in some cases), then you would be dead.
For us casual players who pull XP groups, lets face it, we could get by without being in the top 5% of pullers skill-wise in the game. I know I sure as hell don't fall into that category, yet I could keep an XP group grinding all night wherever we were without much problem before the patch.
Now its just not that efficient. I have to FD off pulls because I'm getting my ass handed to me. I come back to the group just about dead and immediately sponging mana before the fight even starts. And I die a heck of a lot more when pulling, meaning the groups gotta go get my corpse and rez me. Keeping in mind that in XP groups the whole point is time vs. XP, I'm just not nearly as efficient anymore. And its frustrating as hell.
(as a side note, I don't know why ANY other class would gloat over this nerf - its YOUR XP per night that's being nerfed, you numbnuts)
I know you're reaction will be "Well learn to pull better, you lazy ass", and its a valid response. The problem is I have a job that takes a lot of my time, and a newborn daughter. At the rate I play, its going to be a lot of frustrating hours before I can get back to being an efficient XP group puller.
I was fine where I was at pre-nerf - not l33t, but certainly good enough to pull anything my friends and guild could handle. Now I'm not, and my options are do a hell of a lot more work I didn't necessarily want to do, or stop pulling (and if I do that, I may as well re-roll a Rogue).
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The nerf sucks but we will survive. Well at least the strong willed ones will. If you are not a strong willed monk, you wouldn't make it to the top anyway. There is lots of competition.<hr></blockquote>
I never wanted to "make it to the top". I wanted to log in and have fun with some friends. I was having fun before the nerf. Now its work. You're approach to the game is different than mine - not better, not worse, different. This nerf has made it impossible to be a "casual" puller. In other words, you either put in the time to become really, really good at it, or stop pulling.
I guess what I'm most upset about is that I'm being forced into that decision.
I'm sure some you hard-core guys will think "Good, we're trimming the dead weight from the class" Just understand that for some of us its like being told we can't play golf anymore unless we qualify for the PGA tour.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>All VI did is make the monk even MORE gear dependant. Welcome to the rest of the melee classes out there who have the same plight.<hr></blockquote>
If I wanted to have the same plight as the rest of the melee classes, I would have been one of them, not a monk. As I said, I'm a casual gamer and I hate having to worry about chasing gear all the time. Its not why I play the game, and it directly affected why I chose a monk. Changing the rules mid-game is what pisses me off.
OK, done ranting (or whining if you will <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> )
/em runs off to find the Advanced Pulling Guide
</p>
Denelor,
I'll be the bandit. Sure why not. That is what you want. Someone to blame. If you cancelled your accounts and don't want to play anymore, why waste your time?
You whole post just proved my point. You are here not to do anything constructive, just to be disgruntled and complain. LOL complain about a game you supposedly quit and no longer care about.
As far as loot goes, you are definately misguided. This game is definately abut more than loot. It's a community and the interaction with others is what makes this game levels above the other games out there. It hits much larger demographics.
You are wrong also about loot being relevent in this argument. Not sure how I can explain it to you any differently. It is a scalable nerf. As far ahead of the mobs I was before due to my "gear" in comparison to the mobs I am fighting, I am now just as far pushed back as any other monk when compared to the mobs I am fighting. I may still be able to solo the mobs I did before but the efficiency of it is just as bad as not being able to solo it at all.
If every time I try to kill a mob and it takes mend + stonestance to kill, that's what, a mob every 5 or so minutes not to mention the down time from healing up alone. The efficiency of it makes it not worth while to solo, I may just as well go group for better exp.
Do you understand yet?
Rhizzen Khillahpriest <Darkblood>
54 Necromancer of Innoruuk
Sol Ro
Sensai Ssoulz Jah <Darkblood>
60 Grandmaster of Cazic Thule
Sol Ro
<div style="text-align:center">
Ssoulz Stuffz (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=405138)
http://www.thedragonseye.net/eq/Sensei%20Ssoulz%20signature.jpg
</div></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rhi zzen>Rhizzen</A> at: 11/1/02 11:48:11 am
BTW, if I'm going have the plight of being Gear-Oriented like all the other melee classes, please take my weight restriction off so I can f*cking loot something like all the other melee classes.
Thank you.
</p>
SkyKungfu
11-01-2002, 03:47 PM
Ok Rhizzen, exactly this attitude of thinking that just because someone not sold his ass and his soul to join an uber guild this person has no clue what a monk is, makes me really hate a$$es like you. Its almost worst than your lack of solidarity to the monk class (and this class is not just those 3% uber guilded player). I usally don't wannna get nerfed any other class, but sucker like you make me wish they would nerf your unbalanced gear to hell so you finally learn what a real monk is.
Sky
PS: "as a side note, I don't know why ANY other class would gloat over this nerf - its YOUR XP per night that's being nerfed, you numbnuts" Thats one of the best things I ahve read here in a few thousend posts. /bow
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sky kungfu>SkyKungfu</A> at: 11/1/02 11:59:23 am
/sigh sky
Keep being mad. Go ahead. Like I said, blame me. However you forget I worked to get the gear I have. It wasn't handed to me.
I am not sure you understood my above post. Sounds like you are agreeing but you don't even know it.
Rhizzen Khillahpriest <Darkblood>
54 Necromancer of Innoruuk
Sol Ro
Sensai Ssoulz Jah <Darkblood>
60 Grandmaster of Cazic Thule
Sol Ro
<div style="text-align:center">
Ssoulz Stuffz (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=405138)
http://www.thedragonseye.net/eq/Sensei%20Ssoulz%20signature.jpg
</div></p>
SkyKungfu
11-01-2002, 04:03 PM
I also worked for my lvl and my equipment, your not the only one. And the only difference is that I am in a small guild, and you are in a big guild. Fine, you should have a advantage of 10 - 15% over me for kissing some asses to be where you are. But that makes you no better player, no better man, no better person. So get ride of your crappy attitude and remeber your a monk not a loot whore. Thanks for your time.
Sky
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I'll be the bandit. Sure why not. That is what you want. Someone to blame. If you cancelled your accounts and don't want to play anymore, why waste your time?<hr></blockquote>
You keep putting words in my mouth. I'm not mad, and not looking for someone to blame, even though you so desparately want me to be. You're setting up straw men and then knocking them down.
I simply stated that the change makes the game not fun for me, and explained why. Based on the game not being fun, I've decided to not spend money on it. Its really that simple.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> You whole post just proved my point. You are here not to do anything constructive, just to be disgruntled and complain. <hr></blockquote>
Isn't that the whole purpose of the Monk Changes forum?? /boggle Instead of asking why I'm here, you should ask yourself.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>It's a community and the interaction with others is what makes this game levels above the other games out there. It hits much larger demographics.<hr></blockquote>
Sure. But then so is Monkly-Business. And M-B is a whole lot cheaper than EQ itself <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> If every time I try to kill a mob and it takes mend + stonestance to kill, that's what, a mob every 5 or so minutes not to mention the down time from healing up alone. The efficiency of it makes it not worth while to solo, I may just as well go group for better exp.
Do you understand yet?<hr></blockquote>
YES!! I understand this even better than you, because while you can still kill that mob -- albeit with some difficulty -- I can't! Thats my whole point, if you would just stop blathering and listen for a change. Pre-nerf, I could solo fine, post-nerf I can't. Period, full stop, end of story.
The "solution" is to join an uber guild and put in the time it takes to get some rare no drop items. I'd rather not, considering the opportunity cost of doing so (spending that time playing other games which are more fun). Does me opting out of going the uber route make me less of a man too? /shrug Lots of ubers (mistakenly) think so.
--
Stonetooth Sleestak
60 Iksar Monk
Druzzil Ro
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I also worked for my lvl and my equipment, your not the only one. And the only difference is that I am in a small guild, and you are in a big guild. Fine, you should have a advantage of 10 - 15% over me for kissing some asses to be where you are. But that makes you no better player, no better man, no better person. So get ride of your crappy attitude and remeber your a monk not a loot whore. Thanks for your time.<hr></blockquote>
/sigh /sigh /sigh sky.
Kissing asses. Lol if you knew anything about me, which you should have gotten by now, I kiss 0, zip, zero, no asses. I didn't go join an uber guild, I joined my guild when I was level 30 with my necro 3 years ago, when we couldn't even raid upper guk with 20 people. Our levels ranged from 10 to 35 when I joined. I helped build my guild.
Loot whore? Lol I laugh at you again. I had zero platinum in my bank and gave an RBB back to my guild when I won a CoCW. No one asked me to do it. I just did, because I am not a loot whore. A friend handed me his Kheshek's Katar when he won Baton of Flame. The next kill I won Wurmscale fists. I in turn passed down the katar (even tho it is better than the weapon I was using in secondary) to the next monk in line.
Done making accusations of which you have no basis for backing up?
/sigh denelor
No the "solution" is to change your attitude about monks. It's not to get more gear, although it definately helps. If you change your attitude of that of a disgruntled worker to that of a team player who tries to make up for their weaknesses with skill you might actually get what I am trying to say.
Have you tried changing your soloing grounds? Perhaps using Instill Doubt on large mobs that get stuck in doorways might actually give you the edge to beat the mob. Research new soloing camps and new tactics.
I was doing the same things I am doing now, on a smaller scale ofcourse, when I was level 50 with really crappy gear. Crappier I am sure than what you have or had at 50.
I was pulling in Kael arena / Tormax throne room at level 54 before even I had my epic or any robe better than RotLC, when one mistake meant certain death. It took skill then and it takes skill now. Hell I was pulling in LGuk lord to magus and keeping the whole wing clear with one group at level 36. LoL solo pulling Lord from an ALL red room of mixed melees and casters. Why? Not because of my AC or lack of back then, or my hps or lack of back then, it was because I preservered and found the will and way to do it. I learned lessons back then that pay off still today.
You want to be mad. You are mad. If you weren't you wouldn't have cancelled your accounts. Why deny it? You are pissed.
I said,
Your whole post just proved my point. You are here not to do anything constructive, just to be disgruntled and complain.
You said,
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Isn't that the whole purpose of the Monk Changes forum?? /boggle Instead of asking why I'm here, you should ask yourself.
<hr></blockquote>
This proves exactly what I am saying. This forum isn't for the purpose to bitch an moan, nor is it here for me to entertain myself by arguing with disgruntled players. It's to discuss the problems in effort to form a conclusion based on opinions of more than just the disgruntled pissed off player. Having more than one opinion helps to create a balanced conclusion.
You are here to argue to entertain yourself just the same as I am, if you weren't, you would go play your "more fun" games and get off this board.
Like I said, I am man enough to admit it. You sir are not.
Rhizzen Khillahpriest <Darkblood>
54 Necromancer of Innoruuk
Sol Ro
Sensai Ssoulz Jah <Darkblood>
60 Grandmaster of Cazic Thule
Sol Ro
<div style="text-align:center">
Ssoulz Stuffz (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=405138)
http://www.thedragonseye.net/eq/Sensei%20Ssoulz%20signature.jpg
</div></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rhi zzen>Rhizzen</A> at: 11/1/02 1:06:34 pm
Sure.. I could start a whole new thread, but I won't. I just want to vent somewhere.
I remember when Monkly-Business was the source for monk info. In a way, it still is, but you have to go to archived information, and even forums designed for the perusal of new information get filled with bitching about 'monk nerfs.' (although that's slowed down a bit, thankfully) The mods do their job of shutting down threads and moving them where they need to be, but whiners and trolls seem to be coming out of the fucking woodwork. Now, I wasn't happy about the mitigation change, in fact I was pretty pissed. I logged off in disgust after finding my ability to solo completely borked after that patch. So you know what I did? I grouped! Then I hit 54 and 55, and golly gee, I can solo again. Slightly less effectively than I used to be able to, but not enough to warrant quitting over, or incessantly whining.
Secondly - I'm not all that pleased over the level 65 fist change to 15/20 from 18/20, but ya know what? I'm level 55, so it didn't affect me. Having never known what it's like to have 18/20 fists, I can't really complain about not having 18/20 fists... nothing's changed. And nothing's changed for 99% of the people bitching either - Last week, 18/20 fists didn't exist and this week, 18/20 fists don't exist. /shrug VI handled the announcement poorly by blaming it on PoP Testers rather than their own incompetence, but it's easier to shift the blame to a nameless group of people than accept your own shortcomings. Nothing new from VI there.
Thirdly - the change to the Gause Press. /shrug I'm not happy over this one either, but it is not a monk nerf. It's an item change, and affects every single class with a bind wound skill and no healing spells (which is all melee), and it affects what Tinkerers can charge for the item. To even consider this a "monk nerf" is just to be looking for something else to complain about. Sure monks use a lot of bandages - particularly when they solo. But to listen to the whiners, they can't solo at all anymore anyway, so what's the story there? These are the same people who say they can't afford to buy a 3k item, but seem to be angry over losing free bandages from a 5-8k item. /boggle Now, if you bought your Press already, you certainly have a reason to bitch. This is directed at the people bitching who can't afford it anyway.
I've been a monk since January of 2001. Not really a long time by some people's standards,true. But I've always found M-B.com to be a wonderful source of information that I now see being torn apart by people more interested in complaining rather than adapting. Rather than begging VI to "Define your role," why don't you go play the game and define it for yourself? You may find, as I have, that it's not really that different than it was before. Things are slightly different, but it isn't the end of the road. I miss the days of coming together to solve quests like the Whistling Fists (and indeed, pretty much explaining to VI how and where the quest was screwed up in the process.. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> ).
I encourage people to drop the complaints about the 18/20 fists and bandaid maker and concentrate on the one change that is actually important - mitigation. It is really the only change that truly affected monks across the board, and that we have no choice but to deal with. I honestly do not expect anything to be changed back because VI will take two years to see the problem in their hasty fix, and by that time it won't be important enough to bother with, but it's really the only monkly-arguement that has much merit.
/flame on, if you feel the need. I'm just tired of coming here and seeing people without the cash to buy a Gause Press talking about how they're nerfed because of it, and level 40 monks saying they're nerfed because of level 65 fists ratios...
<center>
<IMG SRC=http://home.sc.rr.com/honorbound/images/jibjab_2a.jpg>
...my threads... (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=103157)
Prexus
</center></p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Perhaps using Instill Doubt on large mobs that get stuck in doorways might actually give you the edge to beat the mob. <hr></blockquote>
LMAO! So your idea of being creative and overcoming adversity is to... exploit pathing. How original. Could I get a sony rep in here to back Rhizzen up on this please?
Keep talking, you'll eventually make a cogent argument (about what I'm not sure yet)
--
Stonetooth Sleestak
60 Iksar Monk
Druzzil Ro
</p>
SkyKungfu
11-01-2002, 05:20 PM
/sigh /sigh /sigh /sigh Rhizzen
At least your a$$ kiss skill that you show to Sony is very well back uped with your posts. And its also obvious that you dont care for your less 1200 ac sisters and brothers that get handed their asses over now. Sad enough.
Sky
</p>
SkyKungfu
11-01-2002, 06:04 PM
Jibjab there are 2 reasons why the gauze press nerf hits monks more than other classes:
1) Monk have, espacally at lower lvls, a way harder time than other classes to make money. So if they put all their money in to get this item and a few days later its nerfed it hurts them usally more.
2) For all other class theres allrdy a summon band item (emb knife).
And last not least, its the combinations of all the nerfs that bites and makes many monks very sensitive.
Sky
</p>
If there is an Uber-monk club, It is now very expensive to get into. Pre-nerf any monk with decent gear could grind up in levels and skills enough to get into high tier guild to get the good loot. Now, I must bazaar whore myself out to get the absolute best gear out there to be able to grind away close to as good as those that past before me in average gear. In effect, the gap between the uber and average monk has exponetially increased.
Latomi Lionpride
53rd Monk
E-Marr
www.magelo.com/eq_view_pr...num=118566 (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=118566)
</p>
Tempur
11-01-2002, 06:11 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>/flame on, if you feel the need. I'm just tired of coming here and seeing people without the cash to buy a Gause Press talking about how they're nerfed because of it, and level 40 monks saying they're nerfed because of level 65 fists ratios...<hr></blockquote>
what upsets me is the number of changes that are landing right on my doorstep. taken induvidually the changes aren't that bad. once they are layered on though, its a tough pill to swallow. no, i don't have a guaze press but it was nice to see there was an item out there that i could obtain comparable to the skinning knife. nope, my fists weren't 18/20 but it seems to be a contradiction that they first nerf our mitigation but now don't want us doing TOO much damage.
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=67354>Tempur Flarin</a> - The Maniac Monk
Vitam Aeternam
I have come to kick ass and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of bubblegum.</p>
Denelor,
See what I mean yet?
You took an "example" and tried to call it a sploit. You really think I would give up any real information to you? You don't deserve it.
You are disgruntled and have no real purpose other than flaming and complaining. There was a point in that statement yet you only chose to pick out of it what you could flame instead of looking at the heart of the suggestion.
You quit the game man. Let it go. Go find something else to do that's more fun. It might help your poor attitude. I'm done talking to you. But please stop posting, people are going to think all monks are cry babies.
Sky,
Obvious I don't care about my sisters and brothers? No? I've GIVEN away more gear than you will ever get. I've trained more monks on pulling and tactics than you will ever learn. Poor excuse for a monk. Please stop stinking up the class I love. Learn to compensate or write a letter to Sony. Hell if it's good I'll even sign it. I don't agree with the nerf either. I just want to tell myself it will be all good so I can get through it mentally and continue to do what I do. I suggest you quit your monk and stop giving us a bad name. I can tell from your posts you suck. You got no skills and are nothing more than a dumb tank, go to mob, press attack, and watch TV until it's dead. Now you can't do that any more. Oh no the world is going to end. Everyone run and hide, the big bad aliens are coming to take all your phat lewtz. I have plenty of 1000-1100ac monk friends still soloing. I wonder what is wrong with you? OH that's right there is a learning curve.... a lil slow are ya? I mean others have adjusted, why is it that you can't?
Rhizzen Khillahpriest <Darkblood>
54 Necromancer of Innoruuk
Sol Ro
Sensai Ssoulz Jah <Darkblood>
60 Grandmaster of Cazic Thule
Sol Ro
<div style="text-align:center">
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http://www.thedragonseye.net/eq/Sensei%20Ssoulz%20signature.jpg
</div></p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Jibjab there are 2 reasons why the gauze press nerf hits monks more than other classes:
1) Monk have, espacally at lower lvls, a way harder time than other classes to make money. So if they put all their money in to get this item and a few days later its nerfed it hurts them usally more.<hr></blockquote>What low level monk who has a hard time making money managed to sink the 5-10k into this item? If they managed to scrape 5-10k together, they don't have a hard time making money. This item is pure convenience, nothing more. It's more money-efficient to just buy bandages until you manage to use around 200 summons (4000 bandages) out of this thing. It was a high level device. Now it's a fairly useless high level device, but will no doubt end up being used in some quest, so people have a reason to make them...
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>2) For all other class theres allrdy a summon band item (emb knife).<hr></blockquote> True. I can't really argue with that.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>And last not least, its the combinations of all the nerfs that bites and makes many monks very sensitive.<hr></blockquote>It made me sensitive as well. Hell, I was so pissed the night I read on Graffes that the Mitigation nerf was coming that I logged off EQ and didn't play for a few days. After the nerf, I was so pissed at my lousy soloing, that I logged off in anger again. Once I grouped up though, I found that my job was not really all that different. Sure I take more damage, and I seem to get stunned a little more pulling, but it's nothing I can't overcome with a well placed FD, Stonestance, or a good healer at my side.
The fist I feel is irrelevant - 18/20 or 15/20, I wouldn't use either if it means losing the AC/HP/Resists I'm gonna lose for the ratio. The fact that the ratio was even compared to GMUs and Primal weapons is just smoke and mirrors on VIs part since our fists are statless and procless.
The press hurts more than just monks, even with another option (an unreliable combat proc, as I remember, but I could be wrong. As a monk I never had one of these knives). It's an item change, not a monk nerf.
Rather than seeing the monk community bitch and groan over every change, I'd like to see us put together 1 well-organized argument/request to VI about the Mitigation change - the only change that affected every monk in EQ, regardless of race, level, money, or guild.
<center>
<IMG SRC=http://home.sc.rr.com/honorbound/images/jibjab_2a.jpg>
...my threads... (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=103157)
Prexus
</center></p>
Wubao
11-01-2002, 07:02 PM
And still he keeps posting?
Come on man ... give it up.
"Damage of all classes is purely situational."
That situation being pressing autoattack. Happens quite often when you're a melee class.
"..All levels, skills etc...of you and the mob are taken into account ~~ You will never have the same exact damage output on the same mob...Never...That is a fact of statistics."
Well, two things here ... 1) You CAN and DO occasionally get the same exact damage output against the same mob. That's just a fact of statistics. It happens.
2) You're making a ludicrous point here. AVERAGE DPS for monks with specific weapons stays in a certain RANGE. That RANGE of DPS is OUTCLASSED by rogues, almost everytime. The only times this changes are when the rogue can't get behind the mob or when the rogue dies.
"..Is it possible...Note i said Possible...for a monk to outdamage a rogue? F*ck yes...Is it possible for a paladin to out-damage a rogue...F*ck yes...ALL damage is situational."
What Tempur said. It's certainly possible. It's just not NORMAL. Rogue DPS > Monk DPS. It's the way the game is structured. If the rogue isn't outdamaging the monk, something is wrong with the rogue's approach to the monster/game/encounter.
".Monk weapons are statistically better ~~ For that i can say FACT...and prove it...17dmg 19dly 1h + offhand fist 15/20 is nearly a 32/20 ratio...offhand and onhand...+ Crits + Kicks, etc..."
Monk weapons are statistically better. ROGUE DAMAGE IS STATISTICALLY BETTER, with worse weapons. Because of Rogue backstab, and how powerful it is.
How many times do people have to say this to you? A 12/27 piercer in the hands of a rogue will do more damage than a 12/20 1hb in the hands of a monk.
A 16 damage piercer will do far more damage in the hands of a rogue than a 17 damage hand to hand weapon.
"I understand your "solo" issues but, no one 60+ solos anymore"
Are you level 60? Do you know and play with a lot of level 60 friends?
" (as of monday i think is patch for PoV summoning mobs)"
PoV isn't the only place where level 61 to 64s are soloing for XP.
"THAT will get change, not quitting like a coward and running away... "
Every feedback, e-mail, debate we've had about the mitigation change has been thoroughly ignored by SOE and the dev team.
Quitting and giving that money to their COMPETITION however, is niether cowardly or pointless. It's just good business.
-Wu
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> You are disgruntled and have no real purpose other than flaming and complaining. There was a point in that statement yet you only chose to pick out of it what you could flame instead of looking at the heart of the suggestion.<hr></blockquote>
Errm, no, I haven't flamed anyone. On the contrary, I've been quite restrained. You, however, have made personal attacks and made factual statements with nothing to back them up. I've stayed well within the limits of the board rules, but I'm pretty sure you've crossed the line more than once.
As to my purpose, as I already mentioned, I'm explaining how I came to my decision and commiserating with my fellow monks. I've played EQ since Fall of '99, so ending my time in EQ is going to take more than an hour or two. You'll kindly piss off while I discuss it with other Monks on the Monk forums.
How is this hurting you in any way? I'm making "your" class look bad? Excuse me, but I don't remember signing over the rights to the Monk class to you.
Do you even have a purpose to participating in this discussion? Other than being a flametard that is. If so, you haven't been very effective at all in communicating your purpose, other than to call people names and brag about all the gear you've given away. I applaud your efforts to set yourself up as a standard for all Monks to aspire to, but as has already been stated by numerous Monks, we don't *want* to play the game the way you play it. Please let that sink in a bit further and this whole discussion might take a turn for the better.
But I guess you're done talking to me, so I'll never see a response to this (/sarcasm: you're a troll at heart and can't possibly let someone else get in the last word <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> )
--
Stonetooth Sleestak
60 Iksar Monk
Druzzil Ro
</p>
I play my 51 monk and really don't care about the nerf. Sniff-sniff, I smell a lot of testoterone. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> )
/s
</p>
SkyKungfu
11-01-2002, 07:37 PM
Rhizen you have not only proofed that you are a disgrace for our class, you also proofed that you are an idiot, an a$$ and a liar.
If you would have read my posts you would know that I always said I love my monk and as long as I play EQ it will always be my main. I have all resources that I need so none of this nerfs will hurt me much. Since I am playing my monk since June 13th, 1999. I am lvl 60 maxxed since ages, I got 32 AA points and some of the best buyable gear, plus epic and rakusha cloak. I have also several other chars and the possibility to 2-box, 3-box, 4-box and even 5-box if I would like to do so.
So its no biggy for me, as it is not for many "uber" monks with far more than 1200ac. But I am aware that 95% of the monk community doesnt have the same resources or those "uber" equipment.
Rhizen is telling us what nice and generous person Rhizen is, lmao. You like Rhizen, dont you Rhizen? But I see your posts here, telling your screwed sisters and brothers to stop whining. Telling us the monk class is still ok, np. You also tell people like Rika "to ignore all those non uber monks that have no clue about the monk class". Bullshit. Go to hell and keep kissing Sony a$$.
Sky
PS: The only thing that you love is yourself and not our class.
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sky kungfu>SkyKungfu</A> at: 11/1/02 5:48:22 pm
Tempur
11-01-2002, 07:51 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I've trained more monks on pulling and tactics than you will ever learn<hr></blockquote>
Wubao has trained more of his guildmates.......he calls it pulling. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin">
<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"> thats for the DPS comment.
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=67354>Tempur Flarin</a> - The Maniac Monk
Vitam Aeternam
I have come to kick ass and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of bubblegum.</p>
I just wanted to post my own opinion on what the nerf means to me. My opinion may not mean much to many, but as a 53 Monk who spends his time in full BD resist gear pulling mobs off the second level in Plane of Hate, I think I have a little bit of say so on all of this and I hope noone thinks what I have to say to be stupid.
The whole basis of a monk as a damage dealer is all fine and dandy. Whith the proper gear and weapons, almost ANY class (melee) can attain a HIGH DPS ratio. Where a Monk differs from a pure tank such as the Warrior is not in how the damage is dealt, but rather who will die 1st when attaining FULL aggro. My AC at 53 with standard gear on is just over 1000, with my resist gear on, it drops into the low 900's. A warrior may stand next to me with the same AC (problem is I have seen warriors in the 40's with over 1000 ac) and we should take about the same ammount of damage. Yet, Monks recieve less damage. Of course we do, according to the story of monks, we are able to mitigate damage better because we shun heavy armor and equipment. We dart around and cause the mobs to miss us or we riposte, dodge or parry. The problem lies in the fact that when we DO get hit, it hurts like a sonofobitch. We are PITIFULLY low on HP as compared to similar level tanks who have spent similar ammounts on armor as we have. With my BEST equipment on, which is a nice expensive assourtment, I have a little over 1800hp. Most of the tanks I have fought with at my level are WAY over 2400hp. 600hp over the course of time provides a very nice buffer against death.
I don't care what anyone says about one class overpowering another class. My problem lies in the fact that I would like to be ABLE to solo and not just greens and light blues. I feel what Verant did was highly unnecessary, because monks were NOT ruling the game, NOR were we running out and soloing dark blue and even con mobs and trashing them. I think that some of the nerfs that verant comes up with to balance the mistakes they make are good. I have been hit by SEVERAL on many of the characters I play, HOWEVER, this one is just NOT right in ANY sense. If you take out the inherent survivability in a class, why even play that class.
It's almost as if they made it so that druids could only land a snare on light blue mobs. This would wholely negate the ability to quad kite blue conned mobs for them and send their surviveability in to the gutter.
All of this is just an expression of how I 'feel' Of course life, goes on and we have to deal with it, so I guess that's what we need to do.
<img src=http://wildezwanen.nl/iaw/imag/baboontrans.gif width=100 height=152 alt="Battle Pigs, Inc." align=left> <font size=5 face=arial color=red>Garad </font>
<font size=3 face=arial color=yellow>I. R. Monk</font>
<font size=3 face=gothic color=red> garad@mithrilankh.com (garad@mithrilankh.com.com)</font>
</p>
Quick note on the Embalming Knife:
This isn't a clickable summon bandages, it's a proc, meaning you have to hit things with it. I found it rather useless equip & proc a bag full of band-aids, lowering my DPS so much that i could'nt even kill the mob, or exit the dungeon and start chasing greenies ( if they are available) for 10 mins just to get 20 bandages. I gave mine away & normally just buy bandages. if you're a monk and soloing in , let's say Velks, and you're running low on bandages, couldn't you just fill a bag with loot ( velium stuff, f*ck the wght restriction) , run to thurgadim, sell the loot, buy bandages like the rest of us do ?
Oh.. and Keamil.. keep it up bro... you makeing us laugh <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> fuzzylogic at its best.
Ygnir Thundersson (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=3920)
Warlord
7th Hammer
Worshipper of Tyr who unfortunately doesn't exist in this game.
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I play my 51 monk and really don't care about the nerf. Sniff-sniff, I smell a lot of testoterone. <hr></blockquote>
I'm happy for you, I really am. For me the nerf has taken a lot of the *fun* out of the class for me - and really, that's why I play the game.
Certainly not going to delete him or stop playing him - just irritated someone took all the icing off my cake I guess (which is the best part <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> ) And the reasoning is SO far off base as to why.
If we were truly overpowered, levels 1-65, then I would have no problem with this nerf. But in my 52 levels no has even remotely suggested that I should be tanking over a warrior. And if they did I would have laughed.
Was an adjustment necessary? Absolutely. Was the adjustment the correct one? Guess that's what we are all "whining" about.
As many have said, some form of response from the Powers That Be would go a long way to helping easing some folks mind around here.
</p>
Well Nobunaga, as a rl female player, I guess I personally am not as competitive as you guys are. And I admit I don't understand all the extra ins and outs of the monk class like you and everyone else do.
All those funny mathematical computations to figure this or that out about monk fighting and skills development is just TOO serious for me. I guess it has its place for players who are that serious. I don't know--just not for me.
Currently at level 51 I have mostly fair stuff (I think). And in the Dreadlands I have no problems killing blue-blue drolvargs and without using Mend (the only problem I have is with the ravishers, though).
Not counting the times I've grouped with my guildies, I've soloed most of my way and grouped with others only about seven or eight times; mostly with two or three others.
I've felt the nerf penalty like all of you have, but I seem to live through it, and my attitude is if I have to group, then I'll group. Soloing does get tiring.
But be that as it may, I hope you and all the other players find enjoyment in other games if not in EQ anymore.
TTFN,
/s
</p>
Wubao
11-04-2002, 04:09 AM
"Currently at level 51 "
Welcome to the 50s.
It gets worse from here.
Brace yourself for the fun of the 50s with:
1) Bad resists
2) Mean spellcasting NPCs taking advantage of your bad resists
3) Poor XP on soloable mobs for melee toons
4) Poor XP in most group situations.
5) SMOOTHER XP tables for each level in the 50s, making the end result the same but the level progression that much slower and less noticable.
6) The levels the recent defense mitigation change REALLY takes affect and hits you the hardest, as mobs outside of the dreadlands (like say, Arena Giants) really start to bring the pain hardcore to the brain.
7) Instead of nine more levels, it's now fourteen more.
<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"> The nagging question of what AA's to work on, why, and WHEN.
Hope you enjoy your stay. The FUN part of EXPing is over.
-Wu
</p>
Fopoodzo
11-04-2002, 06:00 AM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>But be that as it may, I hope you and all the other players find enjoyment in other games if not in EQ anymore.<hr></blockquote>
I think that's the problem, people don't want to have fun in other games, they want fun they had (pre-mitigation nerf) in EQ. :/
Add to that the insulting way VI hasn't commented at all on the mitigation nerf (despite giving detailed feedback on all other recent nerfs - except maybe manaburn but that was pretty straight forward), and that the mitigation nerf was implimented in the worst way possible - so as to hit lower monks for no reason, then allow higher monks (where the problems started to occur) to 'buy' back some of thier nerfed mitigation.
I'd guess you can see why it's not exactly popular.
</p>
Since yard trash in POP hits for 280+, monks mitigation should have upped by aa, not lowered and the same for all other melee classes.
</p>
Fopoodzo
11-04-2002, 05:17 PM
Possibly.
But if VI were intent on nerfing monk mitigation (and they were <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":("> ), then what's the better way?
A: nerf all monk mitigation, hitting monks from L1-65, and allowing monks post L55 to 'buy' back a bit of mitigation via AAXP - therefore hitting monk hardest where there wasn't a problem (L1-55) and least in the higher end game.
Or
B: Simply remove AAXP mitigation - therefore leaving monks L1-55 alone, an getting an effective mitigation decrease where VI wanted it, if not absolutely where it was needed?
</p>
you know how stores raise the prices of products right before they put them on sale? that's what vi was trying to do but got it horribly backwards... or they figured w/ the mitigation nerf all the monks will we killing to get the AA skill *shrug* it's late
</p>
...I have a suggestion for everyone here...You (monks) are a class that has been hit by a nerf, a nerf that decreased an ability used to exp but, was not initially the point of the class...
Were you all to organize even just once, draft a letter...and actually talk to eachother as people...as adults, instead of bickering over the situation again, and again and again...did i mention quitting?
Organizition is the most revolutionary "idea" to ever come to man...Use it and maybe you'll get something done...Bicker and fight like wolves over petty things like the gauge press and we'll see how far you get.
</p>
The last time this sort of action was needed was during the melee balancing. We did exactly that then... I was the one who wrote the damn letter. We ended up with about 1500 signatures on the petition, Verant listened (although again never giving an official response here), and made the four changes we asked for that properly balanced us with the other melee. Alan asked us what we needed to be fixed at the fan faire and we told him. The changes were a FD bugfix (90% of it anyway), defensive boost via AA, new damage tables, and evade-component added to FD. Since that day there had been nothing really wrong with the Monk class until this ridiculous defensive nerf. We had gear issues and shoddy AA, but so did everyone.
Verant has enough well written emails on this topic explaining the problem and a thousand elegant solutions to fill up the astrodome, if it were all printed on paper. To put it bluntly... regarding this nerf... what good is a letter going to do? For those who have to ask, there simply is no answer that can possibly satisfy them. The problem is OBVIOUS, the solution is equally OBVIOUS, pardon my french but only a complete and utter idiot could fail to see it, and I have better things to do with my time than educate idiots.
Verant knows, and doesn't care. No letter is going to fix this problem. It'll only be fixed by changing their attitude, good luck with that one. Pride goeth before a fall, and all that...
Raviel Darkfyre
<table style="filter:glow(color=Red, strength=3)">
<font color="black" size=2>Insidious Blood</font></table></p>
Guys, please stop trying to make sense. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b">
I only read through 10 pages of this crap looking for more posts by Keamil the All-Knowing, as he gave me a bit of a chuckle. Citing all his information comes from Alla's and EQprices is a great source for all his arguments. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
<center>
[/url]
<font size="4">Knukle Dustez
Grandmaster of The Royal Knights
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<center>[/i]Kernalin the Druid's Profile (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=383387)</font></center>
<center>[/i]Zurash the Beastlord's Profile (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=321457)</font></center>
</p>
Tempur
11-05-2002, 07:50 PM
i'm still hoping for some more inane drivel out of him but i'm afraid that he finally gave up. oh well, was fun for a while.
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=67354>Tempur Flarin</a> - The Maniac Monk
Vitam Aeternam
I have come to kick ass and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of bubblegum.</p>
I can pull it off of this...your sight as well ~~ Dosnt make a difference to me...=)
</p>
Our 'site' you mean? Sure you can, though that would mean you would be using correct information as opposed to the crap you are posting atm, which would take all the fun from reading your posts. Please continue, I'm bored at work. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
</p>
Fopoodzo
11-07-2002, 05:31 AM
<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
</p>
Okay this "wrong crap...well, lets get some of this wrong crap's stats and do DPS your way...Zekhas' Katar + stats...etc...12/23 + dd proc...Lets say...Offhand ~~ Now for the sake of argument lets put a Stave of Shielding...Jade Mace...Spiked Club of Blood...all same basic stats and 1-10k range..."twinkable"...
Ratios are:
Jade Mace = 0.5
SoS = 0.61
Zekha's = 0.521
Spiked Club = 0.565
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jade/Sos = 1.11
Jade/Zekha's = 1.021
Jade/Spiked = 1.065
SoS/Zekha's = 1.131
Sos/Spiked = 1.175
~~ ETC ~~
Lets add some haste shall we?...> all other classes
40percent song haste + lets go with an Fbss...Okay?
We'll do the Jade + SoS...
9/18 x 0.24 = 14.51 x .40 = cap of 10 so... 9/10
17/28 x 0.24 = 22.58 x .40 = 17/16
So lets redo ratio w/haste 9/10 = 0.9
Sos = 1.06
Jade + Sos = 1.96 ~~ a warrior can beat that at 50?
Keamil Kindhearted
53rd Knight
My Stuff (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=145322)
Dragon Society</p>
You forgot to add the DPS for FD
so here goes
FD=ZERO
Besides you weren't doing DPS those were ratios.
Damage per second and weapon ratios = squat when FD'ed, to avoid or loose aggro.
Before you condem, critisize(sp) or accuse
walk a mile in my Wu's.
I think I just found my sig.
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Jade Mace = 0.5
SoS = 0.61
Zekha's = 0.521
Spiked Club = 0.565
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jade/Sos = 1.11
Jade/Zekha's = 1.021
Jade/Spiked = 1.065
SoS/Zekha's = 1.131
Sos/Spiked = 1.175
~~ ETC ~~
Lets add some haste shall we?...> all other classes
40percent song haste + lets go with an Fbss...Okay?
We'll do the Jade + SoS...
9/18 x 0.24 = 14.51 x .40 = cap of 10 so... 9/10
17/28 x 0.24 = 22.58 x .40 = 17/16
So lets redo ratio w/haste 9/10 = 0.9
Sos = 1.06
Jade + Sos = 1.96 ~~ a warrior can beat that at 50? <hr></blockquote>
Please stop man. Your equations are all wrong.
We understand your point but what you are missing something.
The question isn't IF a monk can do more damage than a warrior, it's when comparing the defensive and offensive capabilities to that of a warrior, how do we match up?
The key is in the combo, not just one aspect.
Rhizzen Khillahpriest <Darkblood>
54 Necromancer of Innoruuk
Sol Ro
Sensai Ssoulz Jah <Darkblood>
60 Grandmaster of Cazic Thule
Sol Ro
<div style="text-align:center">
Ssoulz Stuffz (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=405138)
http://www.thedragonseye.net/eq/Sensei%20Ssoulz%20signature.jpg
</div></p>
Lyndar
11-07-2002, 03:47 PM
...my head hurts.
Keamil, can you do me a huge favor please?
1) Stop posting.
2) Before posting on any class board, spend at least 5 hours reading posts on that board.
3) In addition to #2, make absolutely sure that you know what you are talking about. I don't mean finding a website that claims to be able to calculate damage and use it to try and make a point. If you are, for example, going to say that bards outdamage rogues (which is not the accepted norm), extensive parsing with very accurate lists of weapons, atk values, skills, spells, and AA.
4) If, after doing the above, your testing shows a viable result, feel free to post. Until that time, you waste your time and make yourself look terrible. No one on this board will take you seriously, and if we cross-linked it to the paladin board, I doubt the posters there would take you seriously either. If you continue, you'll do nothing more than make yourself a byword.
http://lyndar.netfirms.com/sigpic.JPG (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=291578)
Grandmaster of Succoring Winds
Bristlebane</p>
Tempur
11-07-2002, 04:04 PM
*grins* well that was fun.
first of all, i could care less though if the warrior could match or beat it. a warriors commonly accepted job is to get aggro, keep aggro, and take a beating.
second of all, while ratio is important to doing damage, it isn't all there is to it.
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=67354>Tempur Flarin</a> - The Maniac Monk
Vitam Aeternam
I have come to kick ass and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of bubblegum.</p>
Wubao
11-07-2002, 07:49 PM
I'm not even gonna touch your math equations ... BUT ...
"Jade + Sos ... a warrior can beat that at 50? "
Yes a Warrior can.
A warrior can wield THIS at level 50:
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM
Damage: 50
Delay: 44
Ratio: 0.88 Godly
AC: +15 Sta: +12 Dex: +12 HP: +35 Mana: +35
Weight: 4.5
Weapon Skill: Two Hand Slash
Classes: Ranger Paladin Shadowknight Warrior
With only a RECOMMENDED level of 56 ... a warrior who equips this thing at level 50 (I know this from experience, actually) ... will have a 45 damage, 44 delay weapon in their hands.
Guess what ... that outdoes the monk combo.
And guess what ... one was for sale today in bazaar for 20k even, and last night one sold for less than 20k on my server.
/toodles
:-)
Wu
</p>
This guy is funny. And stubborn.
Slathgar Ebonscale, lvl 52 (retired)
Slathgar Ebonflame, lvl 26 and climbing
Xev server</p>
Tempur
11-07-2002, 08:53 PM
WU.....i'm ashamed of you. i'm SURE that he knew about the windblade. after all, it is a weapon that he would be able to use and he is SO knowledgeable about weapons and ratios and stuff. i'm sure that it simply slipped his mind that it was warrior usable. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin">
<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=67354>Tempur Flarin</a> - The Maniac Monk
Vitam Aeternam
I have come to kick ass and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of bubblegum.</p>
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