Nerf = Death of the Old School Monk

[Blazyn]

Nerf = Death of the Old School Monk



Well, here are my impressions of the nerf. First, I'm coming back from a year off. My monk is a Kunark era level 54, has 939 unbuffed AC and 1550 HP, no AA. Virtually every piece of equipment on my monk was looted of the warm corpse of my opponents, and much of it was acquired solo. Yeah, his gear sucks. Completely ghetto. And I'm proud of that, or at least I used to be.



The monk class used to be defined by skill, not gear. I'm currently wearing AC5 Drakehide Leggings. I could have upgraded to Gatorscale - AC7 - but hey, it didn't really matter. The monk was a minimalist class where cash and equipment were secondary to knowledge and skill. Kunark introduced a few nice items - T-Staff, Fungi, IFS, Jade Mace, Wu Stick, and the epic - but all in all, the monk class wasn't fundamentally changed IMO (with the possible exception of the fungi - but I like the idea of high regeneration on a monk, personally). It took a while for Verant to introduce the upgraded damage tables that allowed the inherent abilities of monks to keep pace with the gear of the other melee classes, but it did eventually happen.



Then things changed. Velious introduced a lot of new monk gear. Luclin introduced even more - weapons and armor that have fundamentally changed what a monk is capable of doing. A naked monk used to be able to fight nearly as well as a fully equipped monk - but no longer. Still, the innate skills of a monk were hidden underneath, and to some of us - that mattered. Those innate skills were what allowed a ghetto monk like me to survive a tough pull, or to solo when needed - despite our old school gear. I guess it got to the point, though, where the innate skills of the monk class combined with some of the incredible gear that Velious and Luclin introduced allowed a few monks to become melee monsters. Typical Verant screw up, and I guess I see why they had to fix it...



But nerfing the innate abilities of the entire class is so contrary to the nature of the monk that I can't understand it. Weren't those innate abilities the entire point of being a monk?



What impact has the nerf had on me? I have been unable to solo anything higher than a light blue - and most of them pound me to a pulp. Low blues can take me down two full bubbles in the first few seconds of a fight. I don't have parses for you, because I can't actually kill much of anything. I cringe to think what would happen if I tackled a high blue or even con. Oh, I'm the master of all that is green - if anybody cares. The bottom line is that my skill as a player and the innate abilities of the class no longer count for much. Loot rulz, and the old school monk is dead.



Of course, it's possible to adapt. It seems I need a bunch of new gear to survive - and it's not optional. Verant has turned my monk into a loot whore. I've gotta go pharm plats. Without my worldly possessions, I'm screwed - and until I buy a new suit of armor and weapons, I'll just run like a coward from the low blues that used to give me decent XP and a little bit of pocket change. I guess this change is more obvious to me, since it hasn't been gradual. Still, the solution is obvious - if I want to play the game, then I must adapt and survive. The question is, is the character I invested so much time into still a monk? Not like they used to be <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":("> .


[54 Disciple] Blazyn (Human) - The Rathe</p>

Well said Blazyn.


</p>

Well put Blazyn.



I truly feel sorry for those with not so great gear now. The nerf was probably desirable for the top monks, but it's not like other classes aren't overpowered in uber drops, and that applies to casters as well as melee /snicker.



The way the nerf was implemented was simply wrong.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=wal kabout>Walkabout</A> at: 10/24/02 10:08:47 am

[catterly]

Blazyn I agree with you.



I remember seeing you in loio running around killing gobbies and such solo, I was there doing the same, seems like a long time ago and things have changed since then.



I still have my last piece of uber gear from those day's, azure sleeves <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">












Catterly
Grandmaster
my lamer shiznet (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=348369)</p>

[Fopoodzo]

Yep the nerf has made gear even <span style="text-decoration:underline">more</span> important for a monk, whislt destroying the solo ability of monks.







Post nerf they need to do one (not all, just one) of the following:





1. Increase avoidance so damage taken is same as pre-nerf, only more is avoided now mitigated.



2. Increase inate monk damage (either through upgrading the damage tables again or something like an offhand damage bonus)



3. Give monks some group utility.







There are perhaps other options but any of those would fix the problems.


</p>

4. Un-nerf, and use alternative solution: Fix Taunt and make monks generate less hate


-Korph







<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=308735">http://gjband.com/Sig.jpg
Level 51 Disciple</a></p>

[Fopoodzo]

Hehe yep or that. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> (or actually give warriors/plate classes a mitigation bonus)


</p>

No one has mentioned either that with the need for much improved gear to help negate the pain of this nerf. Monks just cant go farm HG or lay waist on zones for tons of FS or such ..heck when killing katta gaurds i often passed on all the custodius armor drops that coulda meant "some" income because if you do any of these things your over Wt VERY fast and really begin to lose all effectiveness getting heavy.





Heck alot of pickup groups turn off split out of habbit soon as the monk joins.

So its kinda rock and a hardplace on gear for a monk its loot your own or do without basically



Aint it great how VI fails to forsee the ripples caused by the stones they chuck in the water


</p>

Glad you are positive about it.. I was initially, when the people from test were suggesting an avoidance boost had been put in to compensate...



But tonight, finally logged in for first time after patch.., been building new PC,



greater warbone in BW (light blue) took me down 3000hps before biting it.. (I had aego)



Was at 1094ac (with epic effect) using epic/sos, sotd+epic (64% haste), and fungi...



Used to be able to do em with 1 yellow with aego up.. and most light blues (GWBs undercon so not same) with nil hp drop after fungal regrowth... Heck even drolvarg gnasher (green) took me down a bit now..



Even worse, this was with AEGOLISM up.



I didn't expect the patch to hit me anything like this hard, I though reports were exaggerated =/ The last time I played Herrick, I pulled a huge train from Warlord room in KC down to the basement room where verix kylox's remains spawns, for a 60 enc friend to have fun with in our group... I took a helluva beating getting it there.. but with stonestance.. made it np..



Now? I doubt I would get through the upper level of basement alive =(



So verdict? Sod this, am going to play my ikkle (44) enchanter on Firiona Vie..



Herrick

58 Monk



Born 27 Nov 1999 - Quitting permanently or until unnerfed, may logon occasionally to help friends or attend guild events, but not playing Herrick properly anymore. No point, I just can't do the stuff I enjoyed doing with him anymore =(








<font color="#0066CC">Herrick Reigns (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=89938)</font>

58 Master of Quellious

Divine Winds


<font color="#0066CC">Bracken (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=100817)</font>

47 Druid of Tunare

Mystic Valor


Saryrn Server


http://www.monastery.karoo.net/eq/itvius.jpg
</p>

[Cybsled]

Real old school monks dont let nerfs phase em. They ride them out until the time is right then get them undone with good arguements.


</p>

[Fopoodzo]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Aint it great how VI fails to forsee the ripples caused by the stones they chuck in the water <hr></blockquote>



Yup, a lot of things change when you nerf something so intergal to a class and don't re-balance them (more avoidance, more damage etc.) in some way.





You can't just nerf something like that and expect that to be it. It's NOT like nerfing a single overpowered ability or item, nerfing the <span style="text-decoration:underline">WAY A CLASS WORKS</span>, requires careful thought and that the class be looked at and rebalanced after the nerf.


</p>

Extremely well put Blaz.



We've changed dramatically over the last two years. A long time ago I used to teach classes in West Freeport to young initiate monks (then we did not refer to our brethren as "noobs") and I remember asking them in these classes..."What's my most prized, most valuable possession?" They'd answer "Robe of the Whistling Fists" or "FBSS" or the like. ( The correct answer was "my reputation") I can't imagine anyone taking that answer seriously now. Sigh.



I used to say items were not important, but now know you need to stay current with the new items just to keep up and still be able to play, especially if you solo a lot.



Its a shame, with this armor/weapon/item dependency, we've lost something of great value.



Nagasakee Waa 'the Teacher"

Grandmaster of Brell Serillis

Officer Zan Fi Monks


</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Real old school monks dont let nerfs phase em. They ride them out until the time is right then get them undone with good arguements. <hr></blockquote>



Yea, ok bud. Ride them out til the time is right? WTF is that going to be? When EQ2 is out, and there's noone important paying attention to EQ1 to listen? You don't make this kind of a drastic change 3 1/2 years into a game. Feign Death might have been our class defining ability, but the dmg output and largely the tanking have been what's kept people here. The ability to solo well is what's kept alot of people coming back to this class, regardless of new or old school.



I find myself FD'n less these days, since I am never the puller on any raids I go on. How many of us these days actually are main pullers for their guilds and have to split shit and what not. I definitely don't have to, and I find myself using FD less and less. My enjoyment out of this game and my class revolved largely around my tanking ability, and secondly my dmg output. I'm rambling on here, but i'm just depressed, and I won't be going back to my monk for a long time. The class is beyond broken now. I still love it, but i've put alot of time into my character to lose to this BS. /sigh......


<div style="text-align:center">Anomalos Malakas - 57 Iksar Monk</div> (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=36545)<div style="text-align:center">Quant - 55 Ogre Shaman</div> (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=56948)<div style="text-align:center">Squeaky Kleen - 54 Halfling Druid</div> (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=218254)</p>

[Mrisda]

I actually think the "old school" monk died when Kunark arrived (well, after the patches fixed it). That's when weapons became preferred for monks, and soon after Velious, they became necessary. Iksar monk twinks became THE thing to have, just because. (i got nothing against iksar monks, I'M one myself, it's just that 16 minutes after kunark came out, 7000 iksar monks entered Norrath.)



Kunark put the death sentence on the Old School Monk. The Nerf just threw the switch.


</p>

[Fopoodzo]

Pref-nerf you could still solo without weapons and just bare hands up until the low 50's. It was a lot slower but possible, post-nerf I don't think it'd be possible past 40ish.


</p>

k,



I think I will give you a little overview about my monk. To tell it before, i wont play him anymore now after nerf.



Fungi or PSC

Primary: Whistling Fists 12/20 Effect Johnathans Whistling War Song

Secondary: Knotted Knuckles 18/27 some stats

Hands: Celestial Fists

2HB (used before i got Ambidexterity): Amygdalan War Staff 37/36 some stats

Bracer of Quickness

Runebranded Girdle

Shackle of Tynnonium (yeah, did it twice)

White Lotus Pants

Frozen Turban

White Lotus Arms

White Lotus Feetstuff

and so on.



And here is the point, even with this stuff i cant solo anymore. The Mobs in VL meanwhile Lightblue to me and i cant stand a chance against them (34 AA Points total)



I know, this is not the most uber Gear, but i thought it is ok and it was ok for me pre-nerf. But even with this gear you wont be able to really solo. You wont be able to even take a few hits from any mob on a raid, cause the cleric will get mad. Pre-Nerf i pulled for my guild in ToV - HoT...these days i wont get any mob back to them alive. So i decided to quit playing my monk and switch to a class that is usefull for a group and can solo a bit if i dont want to group (sometimes this happens). Regardless to say that the PoP-AA (mostly tuned Reposte-Abillity) is completly BS after the Nerv. What Devil did VI ride as they decided to make monks unable to tank any mob and on the other hand give them a hell of a lot AA Abilitys that need you to be hit????



Thx VI for making my lvl 61 Monk completly useless for soloing and making him completle useless for any xp group cause i cant take a single hit from lightblue mobs without the cleric or dru cast his healspells instantly on me <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">



bye now...



Andha Zaise

61 Grandmaster on SolusekRo

Monk of Shackle of Tynnonium

Monk of Whistling Fists

Monk of Celestial Fists

RETIRED after NERF


</p>

[Blazyn]

Hiya, Catterly -

Yup, still have my Azure sleeves, too. Took em off the warm corpse of the Mino Patriarch, back while I was camping Raster, lol.



Mrisda -

Well, you're probably right. Unless you risked life and limb to kill frogloks for mesh, it's probably not even quite fair to claim to be "old school". Still, my point is the same. The equipment dependence for monks is something that Kunark introduced, but it has just gotten crazy with Velious and Luclin. My monk wasn't my first character (which was a ranger), so I had a notion of what I was getting into when I rolled him. In particular, I just wanted to play the game - without being caught up in the equipment rat race. Sigh <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":("> .


[54 Disciple] Blazyn (Human) - The Rathe</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Real old school monks dont let nerfs phase em. They ride them out until the time is right then get them undone with good arguements. <hr></blockquote>



I object to this.. I played Herrick for 3 years because it was FUN. That is why I play computer games. I do not play them out of a masochistic desire to prove I can still play a character that has become pretty damn worthless for either soloing or xp grouping.



Sure I can still contribute DPS on raids, but that is all I can do.. and for me personally, its not enough.



If it is enough for you, then that's great, I am glad you still enjoy playing your monk.



I think I'm going to buy Elder Scrolls - Morrowind.. I need a break from all this =D



Herrick






<font color="#0066CC">Herrick Reigns (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=89938)</font>

58 Master of Quellious

Divine Winds


<font color="#0066CC">Bracken (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=100817)</font>

47 Druid of Tunare

Mystic Valor


Saryrn Server


http://www.monastery.karoo.net/eq/itvius.jpg
</p>

Maybe VI decided, hhmm i dont want monks soloing anymore and i want less monk twinks. Well looks like it worked.

/Shrug I dont know i have no aa and decent equip and i can still solo spiders in Velks easily. Your 61 with that gear and you cant solo a spider in there? Either your playstyle is horrible or your just straight out bullshitting. And so what if i have a fungi, i can still solo w/o it.


<div style="text-align:center">Sionistic Triplefist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=139385)

58 Monk

Veeshan</div></p>

[Fopoodzo]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>And so what if i have a fungi, i can still solo w/o it. <hr></blockquote>



Hehe try it for night. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">


</p>

Well, on the subject of Velks spiders ...



I logged on last night for the first time in 3 weeks ... my telephone line was shut off because roomate missed bill payment =/



Anyway, I went to Velks and took down some spiders. Blizzard spiders used to take about 1 1/4 health from me -- now they take 1 3/4 (about 10% more dmg taken). Shard spiders do about 15% more dmg to me.



Didn't come accross any Hunters ... I used to be able to solo them if full hp ... so we'll see next time I find one.



Generally I could solo 3 in a row pre-nerf ... now I can safely do 2, but 3 would be too close for comfort.



Overall, I'm relieved that the difference wasn't worse ... but it still definitely sucks. I'm interested to see how well I do in Kael Arena -- used to MT there for pickup groups.


</p>

[data9724]

Kinda have the same experience as you Valhal.



I havent really played my monk after nerf (mainly because shes been sitting in WW waiting for a Ice Burrower Skin, stupid mobs wont drop them, 18 killed now) so havent tested on "real" XP mobs.



But i spend from 48-51 on bloodgills in IllOmen (and a few rounds to get buffer XP at 52), and got 6 AAs from them too, so figures i would swing by while i were in the area to see how i were doing against them.



Changes since i last killed them:

A few pieces of new gear, Walrus Fang belt (instead of Belt of Oomgado), Tracking Wolf Collar (instead of spider fur), and Fetish of the Agile (instead of Goranga, some here claim its worse than goranga due to lack of HP, but i like it).

Spend my 1 aa from regen in FirstAid 3 instead, so had 1 less HP regen pr tick.



Result before patch at level 52:

Kill a round of Bloodgills, average 3 blue, 9 light blue in under 10 min, having around 90% health.



Results after patch at level 52 with altered gear and 1 less HP regen:

Kill a round of Bloodgills, 3 blue, 9 light blue in under 10 min, having 90% HP left when done.





I know this small test arent the best due to them not being "real" XP mobs any more, but i dont see a big difference in my soloing ability. Will probably have a harder time soloing "real" XP mobs, but i dont see it as the end of the world.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I know this small test arent the best due to them not being "real" XP mobs any more, but i dont see a big difference in my soloing ability. Will probably have a harder time soloing "real" XP mobs, but i dont see it as the end of the world. <hr></blockquote>



I think your evidence agrees with a lot of others though.. you have relatively high ac for your level, due to being iksar and your gear, and you are comparing results on light blues..



1057ac vs bloodgills is pretty high. They are only what, level 38?












</p>

[Alexyi]

You could never know what it's like

Your blood like winter freezes just like ice

And there's a cold lonely light that shines from you

You'll wind up like the wreck you hide behind that mask you use



And did you think this fool could never win

Well look at me, I'm coming back again

I got a taste of love in a simple way

And if you need to know while I'm still standing you just fade away



Don't you know I'm still standing better than I ever did

Looking like a true survivor, feeling like a little kid

I'm still standing after all this time

Picking up the pieces of my life without you on my mind



I'm still standing yeah yeah yeah

I'm still standing yeah yeah yeah



Once I never could hope to win

You starting down the road leaving me again

The threats you made were meant to cut me down

And if our love was just a circus you'd be a clown by now



Lyrics by SIR Elton John


</p>

[Fopoodzo]

Nooo......... <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">





<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I think your evidence agrees with a lot of others though.. you have relatively high ac for your level, due to being iksar and your gear, and you are comparing results on light blues..



1057ac vs bloodgills is pretty high. They are only what, level 38? <hr></blockquote>





Yup.




</p>

And so what if i have a fungi, i can still solo w/o it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------







"Hehe try it for night."



I tried the other night. It was harder but not by that much, just had more downtime. I could still solo but hell i want exp.


<div style="text-align:center">Sionistic Triplefist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=139385)

58 Monk

Veeshan</div></p>

[Fopoodzo]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I tried the other night. It was harder but not by that much, just had more downtime. I could still solo but hell i want exp. <hr></blockquote>









Yep a fungi won't do a great deal (if anything) for the difficulty of mob you're soloing (it's only effectively a ~100-150hp item in the course of a solo fight), at higher levels anyway. Obviously a fungi at L10 will allow you to fight MUCH harder things thana L10 without one.



However what it does do is decrease your down time significantly, and this is where it's power really lies (post 50 at least).



<span style="text-decoration:underline">With the tanking nerf that becomes even more important</span>.









What you've basically said is I can still solo, but without my fungi it it's painfully slow, and my exp gain takes a huge hit, so I won't do it. (this is also the reason many warriors 'can't' solo, they can it's just the down time is horendous.)



But what about all those monks that don't have a fungi post-nerf?


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=fop oodzo@monklybusiness43508>Fopoodzo</A> at: 10/28/02 10:05:06 am

I think it puts us in the shoes of other classes for a change. For the longest time Monks have been one of the more powerful and easiest classes to play. We could go anywhere with little to no risk, tank as well as many warriors in our range, and solo where most classes could never dream of soloing (if the class was even capable of soloing to begin with). The expansion hasn't been out for long, I am sure we will see some tuning in the near future.


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