View Full Version : Rest Playtime to penalty
Lenardo
04-17-2004, 12:48 AM
My friend - lucky him- had his day off yesterday, played ALL day (like 9 hrs-Straight- no logging off) and he still had not hit fatigued- he was in normal exp not bonus though
IMO the Rest state concerns by me on length of playtime til penalty are rendered null and void by my friend playing so long without any penalty,
the only thing that i think needs tweaking is recovery time along a linear progression upwards to well rested.
Brother Lenardo Draconis
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Magelo ('http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=329805')</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub147.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=len ardo>lenardo</A> at: 4/16/04 11:50 pm
I think you're being suckered by word games.
You pay a penalty on killing a level 40 mob in EQ vs a 41 mob...less XP
You pay a penalty on killing in PoEarth vs SSRA because of the ZEM... less XP
The choices you make directly effect your penalty. But just because it wasn't called a <span style="text-decoration:underline">penalty</span> you accepted it as fine. Everyone did.
It's clearly a glass half-empty, half-full problem. I see 4 hours of playing "well rested" and 4 hours of playing "rested" the equivalent of 14 hours of powerlevelling in EQ. Because that's what it works out to be.
Not to mention that EnoYls mentioned that the rest stuff allows them some slack to not so harshly balance XP in some zones, which is a huge benefit to everyone. It's almost saying that the above EQ examples in WoW really wouldn't matter much.
But your examples are fine. That's where the survivalist skill actually has benefit, both roleplay and otherwise.
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub147.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ata r>Atar</A>* http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/black_thatch.gif at: 4/17/04 12:56 am
guice666
04-17-2004, 02:06 AM
/nod, as Atar. I think you and others are getting too tied on this "penalty" word.
Just like his example; if you XP in Innovation instead of Storms, you're paying an XP Pently if you want to look at it that way.
You pay another penlty if you goto Storms instead of Earth. Or you goto an old world zone instead of PoP.
Shoot, you even pay a penlty if you play ANY race, but Human, since Humans are the only "normal" XP and everybody else has a slight penlty.
People are too tied on this "Penlty" word and don't really think that there really isn't any penlty there. Blizzard is trying to stop people from getting either too addicted to this game or trying to push them to keep grasp on RL instead of hooking themselves endlessly in the game.
This is a good thing...nobody should give up RL for a game, but how many people do you know in EQ that's done just that? And on top of that, they even BLAME SOE for their addiction!
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub147.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gui ce666>guice666</A> at: 4/17/04 1:06 am
guice666
04-17-2004, 02:17 AM
Played all day? 9 hours? Did he XP camp the entire time?
Since it's really based on XP and not hours played, that would play a big role.
The whole point of the said pently is to try and push people away from mindless drone XP camping. Blizzard definatly does not want people to sit in one spot and do nothing but pull mobs to camp one at a time for hours on end. They've proven that many times. Thus why they were opted to put in a system such as the Rest State.
I commend them on that. That's one reason I don't see the big deal in it. Now maybe it's just cause I'm not playing beta and not seeing it first hand, but so far, on paper, I don't see a problem with it.
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Shugarra
04-17-2004, 02:34 AM
You could argue that he is seeing a penalty, though. He's not getting as much experience as when he started playing, which, in esscence, is a penalty. You alpha/beta guys got to see what it was like with 'normal' experience, if the rest state goes live it will be assumed that the boosted first couple hours will represent normal experience gain, anything less than that will be a penalty. I know it probably sounds pretty ridiculous to look at it that way but I'm pretty sure that's how it will end up looking to those hard-core players that do go beyond 'well rested' or whatever the top tier level is. I realize Blizzard is essentially doing the same thing by handing out way more experience for quests than leveling, but for some reason the rest state just seems different and wrong to me. It is still very early in the beta and I'm certainly not going to pass any final judgments until I see how it all pans out.
Shugarra
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Monks do good dps do they? You may not be the one parsing then buddy. I hate to say it but monks got shafted by a rusty metallic rail road spike in PoP.-Furor Planedefiler<hr></blockquote></p>
Arlos
04-17-2004, 02:44 AM
Ahhhh, but even dropping to normal is a "penalty", since you are getting less return for equal work compared to "fully rested." *shrug* I just don't like the idea that the longer I play the game in one stretch, the less efficient that time is, or the less progression I will be able to make for a given amount of time spent. It's a incentive to play less, not more.
At an absolute bare minimum, it needs to let you get to fully rested ANYWHERE, especially in a city, not just within the 4 walls of an inn. If I'm doing a kill quest in BFE at a safe spot that took a while to work my way to due to mass mobs in the way and need to go to sleep, I don't want to have to go back to town in order to be ready to XP the next day, I want to camp right there. Running isn't the most fun of tasks, after all.
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Dalantia
04-17-2004, 12:46 PM
Don't forget Halfling - they actually get a bonus (in EQ.)
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Shugarra
04-17-2004, 04:15 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>/nod, as Atar. I think you and others are getting too tied on this "penalty" word.
Just like his example; if you XP in Innovation instead of Storms, you're paying an XP Pently if you want to look at it that way.
You pay another penlty if you goto Storms instead of Earth. Or you goto an old world zone instead of PoP.
Shoot, you even pay a penlty if you play ANY race, but Human, since Humans are the only "normal" XP and everybody else has a slight penlty.
People are too tied on this "Penlty" word and don't really think that there really isn't any penlty there. Blizzard is trying to stop people from getting either too addicted to this game or trying to push them to keep grasp on RL instead of hooking themselves endlessly in the game.
This is a good thing...nobody should give up RL for a game, but how many people do you know in EQ that's done just that? And on top of that, they even BLAME SOE for their addiction! <hr></blockquote>
I totally see where you are coming from but your analogy is slightly flawed. ZEM were NORMALLY based on harder zones=more experience. That I'm totally fine with, more risk should equate to more reward. There are racial advantages to be considered when you're talking about humans and halflings. Iksars have more base regeneration and ac than humans, they should incur some sort of penalty. What Blizzard is saying is that because someone has more time to play they should be penalized, that just doesn't seem right to me.
I doubt more than 5% of the gaming population will ever see any adverse effects from the resting state but that also doesn't mean that it's fair. In my four years of playing EQ I don't think I ever experienced for more than four hours straight, but had I wanted to I don't think I should have been punished for it. This whole idea just seems like an unnecessary, limiting factor that could be very detrimental to the long term play--which should be a huge consideration for any MMORPG. The initial box sales will make up for development cost but if you can't keep players for the long term you'll end up incurring a loss.
Shugarra
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Monks do good dps do they? You may not be the one parsing then buddy. I hate to say it but monks got shafted by a rusty metallic rail road spike in PoP.-Furor Planedefiler<hr></blockquote></p>
guice666
04-17-2004, 11:21 PM
I said this before; People should *not* be on the game for 12 hours straight. I can see this being Blizzard's way to discourage 12 straight hours of game play.
Besides, as Len stated, after 9 hours of game play his friend has yet to see the penlty side of it. In this system he's made more XP in 9 hours of play than he would have in the original system. People all up for more XP, no?
The only real problem I see with the rest state is how it's renewed. It's been explained/talked about enough in the Rest State thread, so I won't bother to go into details here.
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<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I said this before; People should *not* be on the game for 12 hours straight. I can see this being Blizzard's way to discourage 12 straight hours of game play.<hr></blockquote>
Who are you or they to say how long one should be doing anything? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b">
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I can say it. If you're playing a game for 12 hours straight you're hurting something.
Even if you choose to do it, and you can, I have yet to see one person who gets into a detrimental rest state for even solid xp in that time. Yet.
I'm all for getting this tuned appropriately (right now I'm rooting for a 6 hour rest, and having survivalist skill = resting at an inn), that's what beta is for.
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<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
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Quote:
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I said this before; People should *not* be on the game for 12 hours straight. I can see this being Blizzard's way to discourage 12 straight hours of game play.
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Who are you or they to say how long one should be doing anything? <hr></blockquote>
I think its good that some companies are taking responsibility for their product. Anytime I mention everquest I get some story about a roomate who dropped out, spouse who got divorced, postal worker who... well you know what I mean.
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I've read that the XP curve for the lower levels was multiplied by 1.75 while the higher levels were by a much lesser amount. I haven't seen anyone give that figure though, but then I guess the beta testers are still relatively low level for a couple more days.
On that basis the first stage is truly a small bonus (will level 15% faster than last push) and the second stage is a small penalty (will level 15% slower than last push. Remembering of course that these represent kill XP only, with quest XP reducing the effect of both the bonus and the penalty, reducing the levelling curve (I hear it was doubled) and of course extending the fatigue intervals.
It's still a very clever mechanic. I'd love some better figures though. And someone stated the fatigue intervals are static (same kill XP per fatigue state regardless of level) but that's got to be wrong.
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<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I think its good that some companies are taking responsibility for their product. Anytime I mention everquest I get some story about a roomate who dropped out, spouse who got divorced, postal worker who... well you know what I mean<hr></blockquote>.
Yes, but that doesn't explain how someone that only does that kind of thing on a weekend deserves a penalty of any sort. Responsibility is not soley on blizzard's hands, you have to excercise your own judgement on things like this.
You can't accept at face value what people say whenever remarking about online games, so many people like to claim they know someone that dropped out or lost a spouse to an "addiction", when it could very well have been a much larger combination of factors. All they are looking for is a scapegoat.
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You know it is vaguely possible that blizzard has looked to the possibility of legal indemnity. "Your game killed little timmy!". That's why EQ put the session timer in I would imagine.
That said I don't think that's the point. If they seriously wanted to do it the timer would be per session rather than the per character they have currently.
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guice666
04-19-2004, 04:09 AM
session timer?
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Yes, but that doesn't explain how someone that only does that kind of thing on a weekend deserves a penalty of any sort. <hr></blockquote>
Blizzard is intentionally trying to make their game more than just an XP grind. If successful, even during a full day play on a weekend you won't even notice the fatigued state.
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Lenardo
04-19-2004, 10:32 AM
since the patch i have yet to get below well rested during my playtimes....
granted i have not played all that long - hell saturday and sunday were nice out so i was out most of the day.......but still.
it is a nonissue on duration, what is the issue is "recharge" time.
Brother Lenardo Draconis
65th Transcendant of the Celestial Fists
The First Seal
The Nameless
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guice666
04-19-2004, 10:53 AM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>it is a nonissue on duration, what is the issue is "recharge" time.<hr></blockquote>
From what I hear and can think of, I would fully support this statement. The only issue I see with this system is the recharge time. But I'm not in beta, what do I know. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p">
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Yeah, there's a session timer in EQ. The little interface box you can put how many hours you want to play for and then it "dings" when that time is reached. In other words making the fact you've been playing for 20 hours straight your responsibility.
Pretty sure most people clicked it away though, and i've no idea what hot key brings it back, but it was introduced shortly after there was an "at computer" death.
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This thread can probably be unstickied, we all know how much xp it takes to get to penalty. Now this thread is basically how long does it take you to earn (40,000?) a certain ammount of xp.
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I just found this post on the WoW boards, the rest state stuff needs serious work.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>It takes the same amount of XP to get to Rested at lvl 22 as it did at lvl 1. Right now as it stands it's about 20k xp from Well rested to Rested and 15k more from Rested to Normal. Sure at lower lvls this is all fine, but it took me all of about an hour and 1/2 to get from Well Rested to Rested today at lvl 22 and it just keep going faster and faster.. now you see why Rest States need to scale with levels. If it keeps going some people will reach Fatigued in 3-4 hours maybe less. <hr></blockquote>
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Lenardo
04-20-2004, 01:33 PM
yes that should happen rested state should scale upwards instead of being a flat rate timer...
Brother Lenardo Draconis
65th Transcendant of the Celestial Fists
The First Seal
The Nameless
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Arlos
04-20-2004, 03:59 PM
The other thing the rest state changes combined with the increased XP to level has broken is the quest pacing. Used to be, for example, in NE lands, as you leveled up the new quests you got basically kept pace with what level you were getting to by the combo of quest XP + mob XP. Now, with my new NE druid, my quests generally were all orange/red all the time (ie, higher or MUCH higher level than me). Now, I can grind XP, but given the amount of killing necessary to do some of the quests, that's already putting me near rested or worse, so grinding gets progressively less and less efficient, and slower and slower.
Now, yes, I could go to other zones and do other quests, but that introduces a whole lot of extra running around to different places, and as we all know, running from place to place isn't the world's most fun thing to be doing. Not to mention, there's now added costs for griffon flights, etc., and for Druids at least, money is a major issue, since we have half again to 2x the number of spells/abilities to buy as other classes.
As someone else said, no, the rest state XP-to-state-change is a fixed value, and doesn't seem to scale at all with level. This will pose a REAL problem when people get to the high 20s or 30s, when there's generally less quests to do, more grinding is necessary, and by the time you reach the end of a level (if you do it in 1 day) you're going to be seriously into the penalty levels.
Basically, playing under this system hasn't made me like it any better, nor has it erased any of my posted concerns about the effects it will have. Gonna work up a more detailed objection list when I have more time, and am hopefully not as sick as I am now. (goddamn chest colds)
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Syldin
04-20-2004, 11:28 PM
How much is it to get from normal to fatigued ?
I haven't seen anyone comment on that yet, is that because noone is hardcore enough to reach it, or because everyone logs in fear as soon as they get to normal xp ?
I think the bonus is probably too generous for people not to see it as an entitlement. For example - if the well rested bonus applied to the first mob that you killed in any calendar day, I find it difficult to imagine people working themselves into the point of view that they are entitled to the bonus xp and sulking when they lose it.
It's kind of funny really, I saw much the same arguments when a MUD I worked on switched to level modified experience rewards - the screams from people about how they should be able to farm greens forever if they wanted to, the howls about forcing them to a particular playstyle etc. These days noone bats an eyelid at that kind of thing in an RPG of any sort, it's just accepted as standard.
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