Need comparison help

[Nahsai]

Okay, gonna sound dumb probably, but I'm a bit confused, laf.



Everyone keeps talking about the frame rate (FPS) in WoW being 20's+. What's this mean in layman's terms?



ie: Compared to EQ, since that's a benchmark we all know fairly well.



Thanks <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">



Nahsai

Halfway Retired


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[Lenardo]

ok you know in eq (before the dx9 change) in oh say the BAZAAR where if you extend the clip plane the screen is all jumpy and looks like a slide show?



that is BAD FPS



fps stands in this instance for frames per second, the more frames per second you get, the smoother the game plays. the game "flows" nicely



now in the bazaar slide that clip plane all the way to minimum, notice how moving around "smooths" out





have you seen the older eq2 videos where they are doing something that bang the game looked like it slowed down, the scenes got choppy? that is showing the game drop fps



in order for an object to be animated smoothly, you need about 16fps as a minimum. below 12 and it gets really bad

below 9 and it is not "animated"



in WoW - on AVERAGE - i get 30fps. if i am in a heavily forested area i average 25-40 in a "farmland" setting - i average 40-50fps, in dungeons i AVERAGE 50+ fps.



currently the most crowded city is stormwind- in stormwind - in the CROWDED section(basically by the main gate/bank area i get 20fps- and that is with 40+ people on the screen. next patch blizzard has optimized the memory for the cities and -hopefully- that will translate to higher fps


Brother Lenardo Draconis

65th Transcendant of the Celestial Fists

The First Seal

The Nameless

Magelo ('http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=329805')</p>

[Nahsai]

Okay, so what's 20fps in real terms in EQ? The Bazaar example is a good one, or even use pulling mobs to a raid of 60+ people (when framerate drops horrendously the moment they get into view).


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Modern film runs in the 30-60 range if I'm not mistaken. I'm sure a film student will come correct me soon enough, but I'm going off the top of my head. Fluid motion occurs for the most part at around 20 FPS, meaning there is no jerking motions that occur due to slower frame speed. What does 20 FPS mean in EQ? Same thing it means anywhere else. It means that motions around you occur at a pretty decent rate where things appear fluid enough. Anything beyond that creates a crisper picture, more detail without any jerky motions. (unless the programmer designed a model to perform in jerky motions)



I think the fine point made about WoW substaining 20+ FPS in even the most populated areas is what stands out the most. Being able to exist in a 20+FPS environment means no more pressing the button to get movement 2 seconds later. I actually feel my body tense up when the FPS drops below 10 or so. I get the feeling of being stuck, and my body essentially forces me to tense up to fight this feeling...no joke.


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Movies run at 24fps.


Moltenfist Talestrike (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=80373)

Reviction (http://reviction.lohnetwork.com/)</p>

One good estimate is the fact that Len describes the "Bazaar" in the same choppy sense that I was accustomed to with my GEForce 2 64MB. Which means that if Len says it gets 20+ FPS with his video card I would say that the Bazaar has about 4-6 FPS on the lower end video cards (geforce 3 [low end] and below and possibly 10 FPS with a nice Ti 4000+ or whatever.



So basically whatever situation you're talking about in EQ you can bet the equivalent to be about 2-5x faster with regards to smoothness.



I got a GEFORCE FX 5600 256mb in August and I figure it will last me at least a year or two because, as long as I can function, performance is only important for extrememly video intensive protocalls (ie. not the MMORPG scene, which could honestly be broken down into little tiny dots with 300 numbers floating around it and still retain its fanbase) so as long as I can play DVDs better then my dad can on his crappy system... I'm Happy.



Sorry for the tangent.


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[Nahsai]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>So basically whatever situation you're talking about in EQ you can bet the equivalent to be about 2-5x faster with regards to smoothness.<hr></blockquote>



Exactly what I was looking for, thanks.



All the other explanations were good as well, I was just looking for that more direct correlation to be able to visualize 20+ FPS. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">


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[Shugarra]

Movies do play at 24 fps but I read an article a while ago that said you can see improvement in video games up to around 250 fps. That number might not be totally correct but you get the general idea. You'll also see extremely diminished returns passed 20-30 area.


Shugarra



<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Monks do good dps do they? You may not be the one parsing then buddy. I hate to say it but monks got shafted by a rusty metallic rail road spike in PoP.-Furor Planedefiler<hr></blockquote></p>

[Bodhidharma]

There's some number of frames per second such that a human can't tell the difference... what that number is I don't recall, but I didn't think it was terribly high, less than 100 I thought?



Your eye/brain can only register a certain number of frames per second... anything faster and it doesn't make a difference.


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Regardless of what your eyes can distinguish, the practical upper limit on FPS is your monitor's refresh rate: 60-85 FPS for most monitors. Many computers & video cards can produce more FPS than that in some games, but the monitors can't. As the world transitions to LCD monitors, refresh rates are generally standardizing at 60 FPS.




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[Xainn]

Wasn't there some study done on 75fps movies back in the 70s or 80s?



They had to stop making them because the increased sense of realism was causing undesirable effects. Film of a car driving off a cliff, folks actually physically react like they're falling.



Course this could be just another urban myth...


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[mr meogi]

I know I can tell a big difference when playing counter-strike at 60fps to 100fps (yes, my monitor refresh goes to 100hz). But thats a game where you move around A LOT and stuff doesn't look right if it's not refreshing quickly enough.



In a MMORPG like WoW or EQ, lower framerates are possible because you're not actually changing the environment too much (go into first person in eq and whip around quickly - if you're only going at 20-40fps, it's gonna look really choppy). But if you just push -> key to turn, things don't change as quickly and you don't pick up on it as easily.



As to max fps a human eye can see, the navy did a study a while ago and showed it was around 240fps or somewhere in that range (probably higher).


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[bwuceofxev]

got me interested in fps.. so i did a google search: www.google.com/search?hl=...per+second (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=film+game+frames+per+second)



couple of the results: www.daniele.ch/school/30v...s60_1.html (http://www.daniele.ch/school/30vs60/30vs60_1.html) and www.100fps.com/how_many_f...ns_see.htm (http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm)


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[Syldin]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Wasn't there some study done on 75fps movies back in the 70s or 80s?<hr></blockquote>



No, I went to a showing of one of those movies in the early 90's. It was wide angle footage taken from a fast moving helicopter and it definetly caused vertigo in a way that no normal films do.



I don't believe it ever went beyond exhibits at trade fairs and such, I am not sure why.




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Was it in IMAX? Any film (especially involving heights) in Imax will produce a greater feeling of immersion due to size/aspect ration/etc... Exhibits eh? I believe a lot of the very same technology was used in (oh I don't know) X-Men or Spiderman... that evoked some of the most impressive (interactive) CGI that we could imagine.



I'm so tired I really have to sleep

I'm soooooo tired, in WoW I'd destroy a sheep.



MAN I should stop writing immediately!


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[The Yanger]

You can distinguish at least NEAR 100 fps. I'd say up to...85 or so? The real thing is, it depends on the consistency in regards to most computer games. IE: yes i can tell the difference, when the game isn't synched up with my eyes or the monitor or whatever, not sure the technical term, but if you've got the game going 100 fps, then you fire a bullet and it causes the framerate to drop to 95 fps, and the 'hiccup' frames get caught in your monitors refresh or your eyes, it looks like a stutter. Movies aren't that fast but they're consistant. Games are differen't, they tend to have huge peaks and valleys, sorta like playing EQ in like...Erudin Palace vs playing in the bazaar, but within the span of just a second or two. Games tend to intensify all at once and cause it to come grinding to a halt. People don't buy video cards to get '200 frames per second' playing quake as a peak, they buy a video card to make sure that when there's 20 people on the screen firing rockets at each other, it doesn't drop much below what is perceptible (if at all)


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