Monk lfg ... hello?

(this post is about level 50+ characters, assumed to have reasonable gear, worth 100-200kpp, and actually know what they're talking about...and this post is also about game mechanics and system, not about roleplay and flavour of classes... please send all flames to /dev/null)



Something that I think is being overlooked is this:



all the players out there know that monks have been nerfed, and are therefore not as useful as they used to be. Since it's common knowledge that for damage output rogues>monk (and I'm not touching the ranger>monk thing with a 10-foot pole), and that currently, all plate/chain>monk for tanking, if a monk isn't needed to pull - root parked melee mobs, and bard/ench/necro to park casters for a while, then what is the role of a monk in groups? Not much - get any other melee/int caster if you want a damage dealer.



More to the point, what is the role of a monk on a raid?

since we're not tanking VT mobs anymore (insert smiley here), and we're not dishing out big damage (situational or not), and only 1 monk is needed to pull your typical raid (maybe 2 monks) ...

what the heck are we supposed to do?



I've spent a fair bit of time actively looking for groups since the "adjustment", and it's kind of tough.



Yes I believe that monks needed some balancing (I was a big fan of moving the AC soft cap to 1050 or so) - monks before the patch were disgusting solo machines.

Yes, _I_ can still solo after the nerf, but I'm dumb enough to fearkite in the entrance of Chardok, I drop 300pp+/hour in potions and right click items, and I've got above average (maybe) gear.



...what I'm hearing more and more is this:

- uber monks still exp the same, they just fall to pieces on some pulls

- poorly equipped monks are almost crippled, and can't solo, and are now frorced to find groups (where people don't want them because monks "suck" now...)

-decently equipped monks (I guess me) can still solo, but it's not particularly safe, and the reward vs risk isn't there...



so the monks with money can still enjoy the class, and have fun playing the game ( game = fun, right? )



how does a monk get good gear?

1 - they farmed a lot, camped a lot, raided a lot, looted a lot

2 - simple - they're a twink, and this line points at the old dev team's crack habit when it came to monk usable (ie all/all) gear. Give me a 55+ warrior with 150kpp to spend on gear and I'll show you a warrior that can solo (toss in a few hundred hours worth of quested items too, just to be fair - Raster), oh yeah, and because someone's a twink, they're much more likely to get into raids, more likely to go on raids in general, and will eventually see the uber gear (these people are not casual players, and one day I hope to win a lottery so I can be a non-casual player as well =P )



I don't think the nerf hits the twink/uber monks as much as it should, and the other monks - the poor guys that don't want to sit around and farm for cash - aren't able to do much other than group.





Personally, I can cope with the nerf, my fights are much closer, and not as one-sided as they used to be. When I'm feeling sadistic, I tell myself I enjoy the challenge, but I still think the nerf was a bit severe.

More to the point, my guild is very active and I can usually get in an exp group when we're not raiding, or when I don't feel like soloing. I'm lucky, and I know there are monks that aren't as fortunate as I am. Please give to the "Save Needy Monks Foundation, or call 1-800-..., or /invite the next monk you see looking for a group

you can make a difference





Xarlass

newbie monk of Fennin Ro

www.magelo.com/eq_view_pr...num=340646 (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=340646)







PS - I want my archetype AA refunded. I want to buy 5 points in "Wu's increased dps". I believe that since the nature of the class has changed, we deserve a refund, just like mod rod using casters were given a refund on regen...







final note - I was doing an okay job of tanking UP last night, but so was the ranger in my group, and I feel the only reason I appeared to be doing better was because I had better buffs (BMB and BoA) and my gear is worth at least 2x what theirs was... and the ironic thing is the ranger would have done a better job of pulling the elysians than I did ...




</p>

[Fopoodzo]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>and the ironic thing is the ranger would have done a better job of pulling the elysians than I did ...<hr></blockquote>





Yup.



Your post raises a lot of very valid question, which VI hasn't acknowledge existed nevermind answered.



Send it into the dev corner (probably won't get an answer, but if enough people do it, it might).


</p>

Quote:

...assumed to have reasonable gear, worth 100-200kpp



Lol, lets get real, most monks dont have this type of gear!



Your post is very sarcastic.



The best thing we can do as a monk class is to have Verant/Sony change the type of nerf so that it only affects those with 100-200kpp all/all items. Monks were always supposed to be sparsley equiped, take lots of damage per hit and avoiding lots of them. Verant wanted us to go back to "Old School" but they too the wrong route.



Regards,

Glimli Mantisfist

52 Monk of Karana






</p>

[Kydaan]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>and the ironic thing is the ranger would have done a better job of pulling the elysians than I did ..<hr></blockquote>And without Harmony, how would the ranger have avoided multiples? Anyone can pull a train if you're willing to let the enchanter mez them or have someone to root park.


</p>

Sorry, Glimli, the post was not sarcastic, nor was is meant to make poor (as in not rich) monks feel inadequate or badly about their characters. The top of my post was intentionally blunt about the group being discussed - the 50+ guys with 100kpp+ worth of "real" gear that could solo and get a "real" amount of xp per hour.



The top to the thread and this post aren't about me in particular, the topic is about all monks that are "reasonably well equipped" and were doing things like:



51-53: getting just under 2.5 blue/spawn cycle in the

Hole (when nobody else was camping in the entrance)

Yes that means 1 yellow per hour.

Yes that means getting 1 AA/80 minutes at 53.

(Yes I'm dumb for having levelled past 53 - heh heh heh)

...

before the nerf getting 4% personal xp/hour at 57



There are more disgusting things in the game ...

nobles in Highkeep for instance would have yielded much, much more xp, and up to level 55 instead of 53 ... but I like my faction.





I do agree with the end of your post - I'm a huge fan of a lower soft cap for our AC. If the super-high end armours (AoW legs always come up at times like these) have very, very little effect on the overall performance of a monk (soft cap of 1k, and every 5 points=1 after 1k .. so 1500ac would actually be 1100 ... something like that), then we wouldn't have the brutal, and poorly thought out "solution" of the current nerf. I always felt bad for plate guys when I decided to group - I'd join a group, and be puller/tank/dps melee guy (other than rogues) ... There was little need for a warrior/paladin/shadowknight/ranger in a group in the pre-nerf days .. just get a couple of monks and rogues, toss in a shaman, or chanter and random healer, and you've got an amazing group.



And just a few asides here;

1. There will always be a "best set of droppable monk armour that yields the most ac/hp and dps" You can't get around that. If there's any droppable items, then there is a "best set". Verant isn't going to go back and change all the loot because it's easier to just change a formula in a table than it is to rebalance hundreds of items, and pray they don't kill bard songs while they do ...



2. The "best set" will fetch top coin in the bazaar. 100k isn't a lot of money once you get into high end drops. Any 55+ player can go to OS and try to get a fungal tunic of their own as a drop (with a group, of course), or a spell off the emperor, or ...



3. I'm not uber. I've never claimed to be uber. I don't expect to be uber anytime soon. My gear is pretty much midrange junk. The guys that are uber have 1400+ ac and 5k+ hp (unbuffed) ... that's a far cry from my piddly 1136/2310 (1200+/3k self buffed).



Xarlass

newbie monk of Fennin Ro


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=xar lass>Xarlass</A> at: 10/25/02 8:07:02 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>And without Harmony, how would the ranger have avoided multiples? Anyone can pull a train if you're willing to let the enchanter mez them or have someone to root park. <hr></blockquote>



Have you actually ever fought in UP? Try getting rid of aggro with FD in that zone. There's no "stay fd til he returns to spawn and remove aggro". Removing aggro is a matter of luck in this zone. The majority of the time it won't work, simply because basically everything roams. If you FD something off and it successfully never comes back to bother you, consider it luck. With the jacked up pathing and what not in this zone, that can happen to any class. Try it with any class and see. You will pull a mob, he'll almost get to you, turn around and run 1/2 way across the zone, pick up friends, and come back. Sometimes when they do this they'll never come back, FD or no FD. So basically saying the ranger will pull better has nothing to do with harmony, because our FD is useless for managing multiple pulls unless you want to /q out.


<div style="text-align:center">Anomalos Malakas - 57 Iksar Monk</div> (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=36545)<div style="text-align:center">Quant - 55 Ogre Shaman</div> (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=56948)<div style="text-align:center">Squeaky Kleen - 54 Halfling Druid</div> (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=218254)</p>

Xarlass thanks for your response, you raise some interesting points. Thanks also for your thoughts on AA leveling at 53.



My AC is less than 900 at lvl 52 and there is no way for me to get better gear even if I group with others of my approximate level. I could never solo so I don't feel left out of the awesome xp you describe, because I never got that kind of efficiency. What bothers me is that my role in a group has been changed after I have been playing this toon for over 2 years. That's simply not right to balance people like the ones you describe. I am a casual player and I now feel that I am much less desirable (and wanted) by pick-up groups.



Also, Btw, did you notice in a hidden statement by Verant that they fixed Monk FD against certain undead creatures? There is a difference in KC for example where the skellies would never forget you!



Good luck to us. I, for one, have stopped playing my monk until things settle down. Verant handled this balancing thing incorrectly no matter how you slice it and they should go back to the drawing board and find a more eloquent solution.



Regards,

Glimli Mantisfist

52 Monk of Karana


</p>

[catterly]

gimli, alot of monks 50+ have gear worth 100k.



I am not even close to uber but my t staff (I looted) and my fungi (farmed pp) can be sold for 80k to 100k.



toss in the silver shiverback sash and its another 20k.



Xarlass, I agree with your post.



I am fortunate to be in a good guild with friends who will group with me regardless (due to my rapier wit <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> ) so I will have fun but I still would like it back the way it was or at least close.



Regards,






Catterly
Grandmaster
my lamer shiznet (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=348369)</p>

What's wrong with fear kiting in Chardok?


Shakah Lakalaka / Monk of the Tribunal</p>

Shak:





You are the king of the Chardok fear kiting.



Nice to see you post hear bro.



Valdor


</p>

[Kydaan]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Have you actually ever fought in UP?<hr></blockquote>No, I haven't. I have fought in Maiden's Eye (post-nerf, even, but the group was letting the Cleric tank before me) and when pulling I was getting multiples and they would wander far enough away while I was feigned that I would be bringing back one. When I got back in range of the additional, they were remembering me and immediatly coming back to renew aquantances. I was assuming (obviously incorrectly) that UP would be similar.



I probably misinterpreted the orignal message. I read it as "Ranger pulling > Monk pulling" rather than "Anybody else = Monk pulling" with Ranger being mentioned because there was one in the group.






</p>

re: pulling...



there's a strong argument for sk>monk as pullers all the time,

and rangers/druids > monks most of the time (xp groups in zones with bad aggro/memory ... like UP)



Just another reason why we're not as useful anymore...

I'm not quitting or anything dramatic, I'm just trying to figure out what my role is...



Xarlass

newbie monk of Fennin Ro


</p>

[Kydaan]

Xarlass,



I don't understand your thinking. I can see the SK > Monk side of things, being that SKs can Feign and they are a plate class. The down side being they have to be stationary to cast, there's a casting time delay and they have to channel through the cast. Since I don't see SK bodies littered by the thousands when I've been raiding with an SK pulling, I guess that their drawbacks to FD are about eqaul to a monk's.



As far as a Ranger or Druid is concerned, however, I'm not sure where the advantage is. Does track make that much of a difference? Is it the ability to Invis (especially if they have Innate Cammo AA) after pulling to avoid agroing wanderers? Why would a Druid be better than a Necro? All I can say is that when we've needed a puller, even after the Monk nerf and before the Harmony nerf, I've always brought my Monk rather than my Ranger.



- Kydaan.



EDIT: Their/There/They're


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kyd aan>Kydaan</A> at: 10/26/02 8:37:32 am

If you have played much in zones like UP as a monk, you would understand that FD doesn't really do that much for you unless you are pulling the few stationary targets that are in the zone. They tend to remember you and will cause problems later if you do not clear the agro.



When I pull there, unless I am pulling something stationary like Mark masters, I make sure I have at least SoE and just avoid any adds by being carefull on the return trip. If I get too many for the group, I end up having to /q, wait several minutes for them to wander of since they tend to stay around for a while and then log back in. Most groups do not like this. Of course if a ranger or druid got too many, they would have to die or train the zone entrance. But after playing there for a while, I almost never have to FD any more.



Track is a wonderful tool and I use my druid to pull in many places because of it, the ability to resow after dispell and snare. I rarely used harmony before the nerf, so it really didn't affect me much. The druid's spell range also allows for single pulling without making expensive throwing items. Monks never were the best pullers for many situations and post nerf they are even less desirable in more situations. SK's, as a class, pull as well or better than any monk ever did. Of course pulling requires skill behind the keyboard as well. Once monks who have started SK's level up or the long standing SK's learn the nuances of pulling, they will be better than a monk in almost every situation.






Clawr 54th Monk

Inspect Me (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=364988&resize=true)




Bomar 54th Druid


Clan of Unity


Karana Server


</p>