View Full Version : Nerf is here to stay ... and here's why
Wubao
10-24-2002, 02:07 AM
So I've puttered around in the planes the last couple of days.
And I've surfed the web like a madman looking for reports and tidbits about everyone else's experiences there.
And so far, the Planes of Power seems to be the exact opposite of what Shadows of Luclin was.
It hasn't been patched heavily.
It has delivered on many of the things it advertised.
It has so far really upped the level of questing and involvement in the game while taking measures to maintain balance to those quests and prevent farming/mudflation (character flags and soulmarks seem like they may work at keeping content/loot/quests/items a progressive, group oriented adventure instead of ye ole Bazaar camp).
Anyways, what's this got to do with the recent monk changes?
The monsters in Planes of Power and the dynamic that SoE seems to be going for with the expansion, that's what.
The mobs there hit pretty hard (even the yard trash, which is most of what I've been hit by).
But, their hit points and armor class and defensive abilities and regeneration aren't excessively insane, like one might find in Velious or Luclin.
A LOT of the initial encounters so far are designed to be 1 to 2 group doable.
This means it really is restrictive on the power level of the monsters.
SOOOOOOO ... back to monks.
Many of the hits I've taken from PoP mobs have been for full damage. (I'm level 56, btw, not 60 or 61).
I couldn't SOLO these mobs, toe-to-toe style.
Before the change I probably could have stood a chance.
I believe the change was made for this very reason. To protect some of this content and keep it not-so-trivial.
On the other hand, I've been able to tackle a lot of these mobs with small groups of 3 to 4 people. And not really needing the perfect group makeup either.
The recent changes may have benefitted warriors a LOT in making them very VERY good tanks for these encounters.
That, however, I feel is a good thing (warriors are sort of supposed to be doing that kind of thing).
I don't know. The jury's still out on all of this, obviously, as more and more of the planes get explored and opened up.
But ... I have a feeling they made this change to our specifically in regards to Planes of Power and because of that they won't be changing us back to what we were before the patch.
And I seriously doubt they're going to WANT to up our damage any. BUT, you are all welcome to keep that debate going. Maybe it'll get some response (it did before).
Just thought I'd share with ya my take on monks and the planes.
-Wu
</p>
That still doesnt change the fact that we have been ignored when we asked for simple comment and clarification on the change. I havent bought PoP and might not buy it at all. Due simply to the fact that when reaching out to and practically begging for a Official Comment we have been total ignored. I don't appreciate being treated in this manner. SOE has no respect for their customers.
Kokuei Akujin
</p>
Ehr, I couldn't solo every mob in Luclin either before the patch, yet if I group up with my Cleric buddy I could kill stuff (Cleric + Monk) that would own a group of 3-4 Monks.
Good example, the level 55 Skellies in the Grey (the ones surrounding the lake). Can't solo them with my monk (lvl 60, fungi, primal, 3.5khp unbuffed). Add a cleric, and sure, no problem (takes 2-3 CHeals a fight iirc).
The mobs in PoP are just too hard to solo for a Monk. A Monk could only solo low blues efficiently (before the patch). Try anything harder, and you'll get owned. Add a decent support class, and suddenly you can take on mobs that are LOTS stronger.
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
I couldn't SOLO these mobs, toe-to-toe style.
Before the change I probably could have stood a chance.
I believe the change was made for this very reason. To protect some of this content and keep it not-so-trivial.
<hr></blockquote>
Your point is well made Wubao, and your speculation may well be right. If one considers though that any mob you might be able to solo pre-nerf, a Necro, Druid, Shaman, Wizard, Mage or Beastlord (and Rangers situationaly with animals) can solo post-nerf. Then one is left wondering why the Monk was singled out.
Anything that a Monk might have gotten even close to making trivial any of the above classes would have made trivial while the player was eating their dinner.
And remember we're not considering here who or who shouldn't be able to solo, but rather whether PoP content should be saved from being trivial by nerfing a class.... Trivialised content is trivialised content whether is a Druid making it trivial or a Monk.
In the old world many of us will remember the disparity between the Caster and the Melee. Some might have regarded it as a period of the tyrany of the Caster. During Kunark things were rebalanced so the Melees were once more a potent component. At some point it was felt that this needed to be readressed with further Caster balancing... abviously the initial mess in the old world had been forgotten... and some might speculate that we're back to where we started with Casters able to aquire XP and wealth far far in excess of what a melee might hope to aquire.
Given this, I would suggest that it is the Casters that are able to trivialise content, not the pre-nerf Monk bottom feeding in Velks. Because that's all the solo Monk was able to do... bottom feed in the mud.... we weren't quad kiting, we weren't rooting and rotting, we werent snare/fear/pet kiting, we weren't sat behind a pet nuking or playing pet cleric.
In PoP we haven't had our abilities to churn through solo xp buffed across the board with spells.... we were nerfed, so that bottom feeding is that much harder.
VI wants you in a small, small box with narrow parameters of play... meanwhile they'll dream up more and more things the caster (and by reflection the Hybrid), can do.
After over 3 years of play, the most they can come up with for pure melees is one taking damage, and two doing damage... and each of the three having to compete with Hybrids for their right to do it.
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</div></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=car nagh>Carnagh</A> at: 10/24/02 5:33:55 am
Faned
10-24-2002, 09:00 AM
I'd be inclined to agree with you Wubao, because a lot of what you see is valid. But as has been pointed out, there are classes that can solo with ease a lot of this content that we would have been able to solo before the nerf, and solo with ease a lot of the content we wouldn't have even been able to solo before.
For instance, yard trash mobs in Plane of Innovation. They kick my ass and I feign them off when they're above 50 percent. Chances are I wouldn't have been able to solo them (well enough to consider soloing them for exp) before the nerf. I can easily see soloing them with my magician.
So while I agree with the actual effect of the nerf, a crippling of the monk's ability to solo, I don't really agree with that reason because there are and always have been classes that can solo better than monks.
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Fopoodzo
10-24-2002, 09:42 AM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> So while I agree with the actual effect of the nerf, a crippling of the monk's ability to solo, I don't really agree with that reason because there are and always have been classes that can solo better than monks. <hr></blockquote>
Yup the effect of the nerf has been hard on monk soloing, harder than on monk tanking infact.
But yes, whilst my monk was fair good solo, my BL, and nerco were and still are much better soloers. (it's just a shame I want to play my monk <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":("> )
</p>
Faned
10-24-2002, 11:04 AM
I have a 60 magician. There isn't any mob that I could solo as Faned that I couldn't solo 3 in a row as my magician, as long as the location permitted.
*That* was the power of monk soloing. I'd never think of diving deep into some dungeons and trying to solo with my magician. Monks were able to explore and find good places, and actually *get* to those places alive. Magicians, and many other classes (wizards, druids, necros, beastlords, rangers, shamans) could far outsolo monks before the nerf, as long as the conditions were right.
Now I get out *SOLOED* by warriors and rogues. That's just sad.
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<blockquote>Quote:<hr>If one considers though that any mob you might be able to solo pre-nerf, a Necro, Druid, Shaman, Wizard, Mage or Beastlord (and Rangers situationaly with animals) can solo post-nerf. Then one is left wondering why the Monk was singled out.<hr></blockquote>
Out of that list of yours, Monks are the only pre-melee class. Now if Warriors and Rogues could solo those same mobs post-nerf I'd agree.
</p>
Warriors and rogues CAN solo. Most of them just don't bother to get the right gear, and compare themselves to monks with much better gear.
Fungi = 70k (on DRo)
Spend that much on soloing gear, THEN do a comparison :P
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Very true Grazzel. Just the addition of Fungi, Silken Whip of Ensaring and Truncheon of Doom can allow a warrior to solo decently. Most however don't make those gear decisions, even though the later two are dirt cheap.
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so...this isnt an "official" statement?
* Monk Defense. Finally, the issue of defensive ability needs to be addressed with respect to Monks. Monks in EverQuest were originally intended to be a class with excellent offensive potential, both with and without equipment. This ability came at the expense of having only passable defensive abilities, partially in the form of an extremely small, restrictive selection of equipment from which to choose.
This, of course, caused its own series of problems of how to adequately reward the person behind the character. It did not take long for universally equippable items (ALL/ALL items) to be considered by and large as "Monk Loot," as far back as before the launch of Kunark.
Over time, Monks' defensive abilities had been tuned up to correct a perceived weakness. This, taken in combination with a few years of universally equippable, low-weight, high powered items entering the game, slowly transformed Monks into what is arguably the strongest defensive class in the game. Monks get hit less than any other class, and due to the tuning over time, no longer take appreciably more damage when they do get hit.
This imbalance between the classes does need to be addressed in order for the Plate-wearing classes in the game to have their proper relative power. The Plate-wearing classes in the game take a serious penalty to their offensive abilities in order to defend as well as they can, and we cannot fix this problem solely by inflating their defensive abilities to compensate for this. Again, that type of change would harm EverQuest as a whole much more than altering the one class. Likewise, we have no desire to retroactively alter all of the equipment in the game that is contributing to this problem.
Monk defense will be altered somewhat. It is no secret that in EverQuest, a character's Armor Class does not compare equally across different classes. (A Wizard with 1000 AC defends differently than a Warrior with 1000AC, for example.) It's not the most optimal system, for sure, but it is the one that many people have had much time to get used to. As such, Monk defense will be altered such that they may continue wearing the same equipment, however, they will get a decreased benefit to their overall ability to take damage.
Again, we have no desire to make monks unable to take any type of punishment -- far from it. What we are primarily striving for is maintaining the defensive order of the Plate classes being able to take the most punishment, followed by the Chain classes and Monks. The latter being technically a Leather wearing class who will continue to make up the difference by being able to avoid more blows than the rest."
~~ I think this statement sums up what they did very well...
</p>
Faned
10-24-2002, 01:59 PM
Think so?
How much AC did I lose?
Agility?
Why do I have skills like return kick, double riposte, combat stability?
Why do I have continuation skills in PoP based on these skills that obviously suggest I should be taking some hits?
How does my 30% damage mitigation nerf justify zero improvement for damage avoidance, while other classes got a damage avoidance increase?
Why does the nerf seem to impact the 45 to 55 crowd the hardest?
Why does it say I am supposed to be an excellent offensive class while naked when I know for a fact that I am not?
Why can you not read the word "clarification" in the very first post?
EDIT: Second post, sue me.
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Wubao
10-24-2002, 02:45 PM
"VI wants you in a small, small box with narrow parameters of play... "
Many of the recent patches have had this effect.
Spellcaster NPC changes, resist changes, the XP smoothing out, the XP table tweak, and the monk mitigation change have all made it harder, and less efficient for the average/casual soloing monk who doesn't 2-box.
So yah, I agree they're putting us into a smaller box or limiting our options.
Hadn't considered how they planned to deal with the standard soloing classes.
PoJ doesn't seem to have enough room for them to solo. (Tight hallways and cells, and the threat of adds).
Disease does though. Disease definitely has a lot of room for the soloing kiter. And has little patches of flies that would be insane quadding fodder.
Gonna have to wait and see what the druids/wizards do with that.
I still think Verant wanted to bring the hammer down on the soloing monk, for "fear" of what it would do in Planes of Power. Or at least if/when they finally do start responding to our pleas of why did they do this, I have a feeling they're going to hide behind Planes of Power and make that the official excuse.
-Wu
</p>
Calvaro
10-24-2002, 02:46 PM
As far as solo goes, I wouldnt be suprised to see a post on the wizard or druid boards about quadding in Nightmare. Plenty of low hp mobs that can be snared and plenty of room to move around.
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<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Out of that list of yours, Monks are the only pre-melee class. Now if Warriors and Rogues could solo those same mobs post-nerf I'd agree.
<hr></blockquote>
Zhol, I knew somebody was going to come back and say that, which I why I pointedly responded to the issue of trivialising content, and stated thus.
If we're talking about the "right to solo"... each of the classes mentioned solo SOOO better than the Monk it's really not funny. The sliver of solo ability the Monk had was one of the class defining aspects of the Monk. And get this.... a vry very large proportion of Monks, chose to play a monk because of this class defining ability, a very long time ago.
Hey lets get rid of a Wizards nukes and turn him into a pet class... fuck that he might have chosen a Wizard based on what was laid out infront of him. lets just rede-fucking-fine him.
And to drive the point home... out of the pure melees, Rogues is the only one who can backstab.... yes its an assinine statement that doesn't actually mean a thing.
Out of the list up top, Rangers are the only ones to use a bow extensively... andother meaningless statement.
Out of the list above Necros are the only ones to fear kite with a pet.... another meaningless statement.
So what if Monks were the only pure melee. That in and of itself means exactly jack and shit.
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<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Warriors and rogues CAN solo. Most of them just don't bother to get the right gear, and compare themselves to monks with much better gear.
...followed by...
Very true Grazzel. Just the addition of Fungi, Silken Whip of Ensaring and Truncheon of Doom can allow a warrior to solo decently. Most however don't make those gear decisions, even though the later two are dirt cheap.<hr></blockquote>
I play both a warrior and a rogue, and I'd like to make a comment about this. This is purely my opinion, but it's a statement backed with many days of playing these classes.
Yes, some warriors can solo, but no warrior would put on a fungi to do so if they knew what they were doing. Firstly, the two most soloable warrior races (ogres and trolls) cannot even wear a fungi (though they can wear the no-drop Luclin version). Secondly, and perhaps most important, you're talking about an AC 21, -10 to DEX/AGI chestpiece. Warriors as a rule do not have high DEX and AGI, and they'd need both to proc their weapons and to avoid being hit.
No...a soloing warrior would rather have a cobalt BP (AC 45, +12 STR/STA/DEX, 100 pt right-click post-combat heal) or some similar BP (heavy rubicite, heraldic plate, etc.). The prices are similar, though.
I'm not denying your original points about soloing, I'm just saying that what's good for an agile monk kind of sucks for a lumbering warrior once they've hit level 45 or so.
Peace.
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<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Yes, some warriors can solo, but no warrior would put on a fungi to do so if they knew what they were doing. Firstly, the two most soloable warrior races (ogres and trolls) cannot even wear a fungi (though they can wear the no-drop Luclin version).<hr></blockquote>
I'm sorry but the only race that can not wear a non luclin fungi in the Vah Shir so you are wrong here. This item has been out since Kunark and being that you don't even know what races can wear it shows your vase ignorance as a whole.
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/equipment/graphics18/Fungus_covered_scale_tunic.jpg
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kok ueiakujin>Kokuei Akujin</A> at: 10/24/02 11:31:59 am
Good observations, I agree about the PoP stuff. Very polished, very well done. I have suspicions though that later planes will see a lot of patching (the ones that probably didn't receive the most attention from testers).
HP and AC (mitigation) are key to being a tank for any PoP zone. When compared to Warriors and Knights, we can not fill the role as tank. At least I can't. We're about on par with Rangers and Bards now (maybe better, maybe worse, depending on gear). With slower in group, I can tank yard trash with a healer, but it slows down exp grind quite a bit cause it wont take the healer long to be OOM. If the mobs had any more HP this wouldn't even be an option. Add more damage to the group and Monk tank might be more viable.
Feign Death is our last and most useful skill. Without it, we'd be passed up for just about anyone else in game for groups. Get used to it, and learn to be the best puller you can be with what you got. What makes this sad though, is all the basic exp groups for the initial exp zones (Nightmare, Disease, Justice, Innovation) don't really need a FD puller. Almost all yard trash can be singled (only Innovation presents a pulling challenge from time to time). Graveyards make CR a bit pointless if you wipe anywhere further than zone-in. The only thing I can say though is FD seems to be working very well in PoP. Mobs in this regard act much more like Kunark/Old World era mobs instead of Velious or Luclin mobs. Maybe VI has finally embraced FD pulling.
I expect a lot less monk twinks these days (esp. since PoP offers monks so very little when compared to hybrids).
Or quit. VI isn't listening. Other classes don't care. It's a bit depressing.
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<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I'm sorry but the only race that can not wear a non luclin fungi in the Vah Shir so you are wrong here. This item has been out since Kunark and being that you don't even know what races can wear it shows your vase ignorance as a whole.<hr></blockquote>
Heheh, okay, you got me there, Kokeui. I've never owned a Fungi on any of my characters, and I was under the impression that the reason why this item existed...
Fungus Patch Vest
(drops in Fungus Grove)
LORE ITEM
AC: +21, Str: +2, Agi: -10, Dex: -10, Int: +2
Weight: 2.0
Classes: Warrior Rogue Bard Shaman Beastlord
Races: Barbarian Troll Ogre Iksar Vah Shir
Effect: Fungal Regrowth
...was specifically to allow the large races to have a fungi tunic.
Still, my point is valid: if you were a warrior, who lives and dies by mitigation, would you want the above (same stats as the regular fungi) or would you want this...
Cobalt Breastplate
(Drops in Old Sebilis)
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM
AC: +45 Str: +12 Sta: +12 Dex: +12 HP: +50
Weight: 20.0
Classes: Warrior
Races: Dwarf Ogre Troll Gnome Dark Elf Barbarian Erudite Halfling Wood Elf High Elf Half Elf Human Vah Shir
Effect: Invigorate
Hmmm...a difference in raw AC of 24, in DEX of 22, no loss in AGI, 10 more STR, +50 HP's (+116 HP's at level 55 due to +12 STA), and the 100 pt heal every 15 seconds at level 45+. Let me think...
I may not know my monkly gear that well, but I do know warriors. I do not denigrate your monkly knowledge, please do not make belittling blanket statements about my knowledge based on single errors...and if you do, please learn to use the right word, m'kay? Here's the definition of "vase" for you...
vase: a usually round vessel of greater depth than width used chiefly as an ornament or for holding flowers
You're right, though, I am rather ignorant about containers that can hold flowers.
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True, that cobalt bp has alot more hp
but
how much hp do you think you can regen in a fight wearing a fungi? i remember someone compared wearing a fungi to solo is like having a 125hp bp
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Pacem
10-24-2002, 06:59 PM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> play both a warrior and a rogue, and I'd like to make a comment about this. This is purely my opinion, but it's a statement backed with many days of playing these classes.
Yes, some warriors can solo, but no warrior would put on a fungi to do so if they knew what they were doing. Firstly, the two most soloable warrior races (ogres and trolls) cannot even wear a fungi (though they can wear the no-drop Luclin version). Secondly, and perhaps most important, you're talking about an AC 21, -10 to DEX/AGI chestpiece. Warriors as a rule do not have high DEX and AGI, and they'd need both to proc their weapons and to avoid being hit.
<hr></blockquote>
Ummmm hrmmm. My base dex without buffs is like 120ish my agi is like 120ish as well. Don't care about agi and dex and AC. The 40-50ac you'll lose will be made up by the health your always regening. Don't knock it till you try it. Ask any monk with a fungi how fast their solabilty goes down. Its alot, im living it right now it sucks. You should actually try gearing yourself for solo'ing, you guys have access to weapons that slow for crying out loud /drool, get your regen up and you'll see how much faster you solo that way. Don't be saying fungi is useless on warrior till you have actually tried it.
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One other bit, my Level 61, 50+ aaxp Warrior friend wears his Fungi Patch Vest over all other BPs when soloing (including some fine Velious BPs). I guess he must not know what he's doing. He'll be glad to hear it, I think he gets a little confused sometimes what with getting hit in the head all the time.
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Thorny EQ wrote:
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Yes, some warriors can solo, but no warrior would put on a fungi to do so if they knew what they were
doing. Firstly, the two most soloable warrior races (ogres and trolls) cannot even wear a fungi (though they
can wear the no-drop Luclin version). Secondly, and perhaps most important, you're talking about an AC
21, -10 to DEX/AGI chestpiece. Warriors as a rule do not have high DEX and AGI, and they'd need both to
proc their weapons and to avoid being hit.
No...a soloing warrior would rather have a cobalt BP (AC 45, +12 STR/STA/DEX, 100 pt right-click
post-combat heal) or some similar BP (heavy rubicite, heraldic plate, etc.). The prices are similar, though
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WRONG!
A smart Warrior or Rogue will ALWAYS opt for regen DURING fight and then if the want right click for heals from BP or even better do what monks do BANDAGES!
Upper end warriors CAN solo and nowadays you dont even need to be upper end to be almost max on all skills especially since Primals/Prismatics abound. Also warriors get a nice choice of weapons that proc Slows, Lifetaps, Rune , Snare etc...
If an UPPER end warrior can solo pull a mob (yes he has to pick his encounters more carefully) he can easily solo better than a monk if hes got the right equipment.
Ill give you an example of a warrior in my guild. His HP is almost at 6k unbuffed. His REGEN is : Fungi (15), AA regen (+3) , Aura of Battle items ( +4 or +6 ) , Talisman of Vah Kerrath (+<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"> ,Dain Ring (+10) , Racial ability (+8 standing? for a troll) for a Total regen of 48hp per tick while fighting.
Thats not including the fact that he can lifetap for 100 hp , Has primal, has Slow proccing weapon has max skill bind wound, has over 120 AA .... etc....
Yes HE is one of the more UBER warriors on any server but wasnt this nerf brought about due to the most UBER monks across servers. Put the comparison and you will see that a Warrior can solo even better than a monk with that type of equipment IF he can fight mobs that come solo. Self Haste for him is 61% to our 81% but hes got all the bells and whistles to help him solo .
Fungi is BY far worth the neg stats for soloing PERIOD. Unless you can get a Lunar Fungus Tunic.
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Lets not get into beating up the Warrior. He has a different point of view than most of us Monks is all.
Thorny, mainy of us disagree with you, which is cool. People don't always see eye to eye.
What I'd ask of you is this... consider what just happened to Monks, and the take a look at the forum you're in. That's all. You seem like a reasonable chap so I'm sure you'll make the right choices.
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It demurs. Lunch, then."
</div></p>
What everyone here lost sight of is the fact that monks were never intended to solo by VI when they created the class.
They made mistakes along the way by introducing items which turned the monk into the best melee soloing class - not just a "sliver" of soloing ability, as someone mentioned earlier. This is why so many people twinked monks to solo with. Myself included... though I'll move my gear to a beastlord sometime soon.
The nerf was their way, albeit a bit extreme, of correcting those mistakes.
Druids, wizards, necros, shamans, beatlords are classes which were designed with the ability so solo in mind. Comparing their solo ability to that of a monk is comparing apples to oranges.
Although I'll admit that VI should have buffed the monk's offense by a bit when they nerfed their defense. It wasn't fair to take so much away without giving something to compensate for it - it would have been better to accentuate the class' original purpose not just by negative reinforcement but by a mix of positive/negative.
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Actually if you go back to old skool... Verant didnt want any classes soloing. Thru the added levels and the added equipment various classes have been able to aquire the ability to solo.
The only question I have about the nerf myself is this.
Why were monks hit with the nerf while the other classes were upped? Nowhere did people complain bout the other melee not being able to tank.
Secondly while I admit monks were never supposed to be tanks to begin with we were supposed to be the TOP melee toe to toe. No questions asked. This however is no longer true either.
Monks no longer have a distinct edge vs the other melee classes damage wise.
Monks also still are the ONLY CLASS that have a weight restriction. Sure alot of uber equipment is low to no weight.. but unless you have an uber guild or you are even in that level range monks have to constantly balance what they wear/carry. This not only hinders us in some AC such as say Treeweave (no monk would ever wear) but it also hinders monks from aquiring money/equipment thru selling. This is never brought up in anything Verant has ever talked about.
If Verant wants us to have less dmg mitigation then we should at least have some more damage avoidance due to the fact that we are not encumbered with platemail.
I mean really how often do you think someone wearing 200+ lbs of armour is going to nimbly dodge aside.
Why dont monks get parry as a skill? That would add in to our damage avoidance. Monks do use wpns even if its just their hands which are considered wpns.
Or if Verant really wanted to "balance" us vs warriors a little bit, give monks an offensive discipline much like warriors defensive discipline.
On another note I would also like to point out Verants complete unconcern to certain Monk AAXP's that are completely worthless.
Why do we have an aaxp that improves safefall? Are there really that many areas that this aaxp helps at all?
Also heard that Return Kick.. sounds cool right? wrong. From what has been told to me it only works if your Flying Kick button is not greyed, and if it does go off it greys out your Flying Kick button... How does this help?
Monks unless they are afk or are just being lazy always have their special atk used. Now if the riposte returned a kick w/o using our spcl atk up it would be nice.
Technique of Master Wu... Nice skill... if it worked.. my friend has this and after the first hit all other hits miss because they all say you are to far away to hit your target.
Combat Stability.. From what Ive heard this doesnt even work to begin with. If it did .. why does Verant give monks this aaxp instead of more levels of Combat Agility?
How about rethinking our lvl 60 discipline? At the moment this ability is a laughable. The "surprising amount of damage" is anywhere from 200 to maybe 500 dmg. Which happens more often than the autokill. Which if it goes off poofs the corpse. Why do rogues get this as a regular ability at lvl 60 not requiring any discipline that costs one hour to reset? and theirs does not poof corpse and has much higher chance of assassinating the mob. Compared to that ability and rangers with AM3 and EQ3 with TrueShot.. monks dmg capabilities are negligible.
Just couple things I wanted to express and get off my chest.
Oh and BTW if Verant didnt want such uber equipment at end lvl encounters going to monks... just put a 7-15lb wt on it instead of being lazy and saying 0.0 and all/all.
And so ends my thoughts
Drakol Dreadfist
Monk of the 55th Degree
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<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
What everyone here lost sight of is the fact that monks were never intended to solo by VI when they created the class.
<hr></blockquote>
As pointed out, in the old world no class was meant to be soloing... some of us remember when kiting was very controvertial, and among the first nerfs were nerfs on Druid DoTs to try and stem Druid soloing.
So nerfing Monks to prevent soloing has as much merit as nrefing any of the current "solo" capable classes to prevent them soloing.
I've seen a lot of claims as to what Monks were originally designed to be that frankly have as much weight as claiming Mickey Mouse was originally designed to be a Navy Seal.
I've no idea how long you may or may not of been playing, but to anybody else that wishes to make claims as to what Monks were are were not originally designed to be, if you weren't playing pre-Kunark in the old world don't even begin to comment on the matter.
Anybody that was playing pre-Kunark, please for the love of god try and exercise your memory a little, and actually recall what was happening. Remember this was a time when well equipped Warriors, Paladins, SKs, Rangers and Shaman were all running around in exactly the same armour.
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Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=266873), Iksar Monk of Xev.
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Dubious member of Hawkestone (http://pub72.ezboard.com/bhawkestone).
</div>
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"I stare, it stares back.
I long to know its feelings.
It demurs. Lunch, then."
</div></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=car nagh>Carnagh</A> at: 10/24/02 10:51:36 pm
Lets get this right!
Monks that can solo PISSES VERANT OFF!
So, DONT BE STUPID NO MORE. If you can solo as a monk and get experience, just SHUT UP!
If you say "wow I can solo and get experience" that is just an Invitation FOR A NERF.
-Fysts (average stuff on a 57 monk)
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Pre-kunark practically all spells were bought too.
Hence if there were to be any justification for todays nerfs based on pre-kunark status, we would give out all spells, wreck rogues and warriors and boost lots of classes that were marginalized with time.
Which gets me back to the monk status today.
My perception of the nerf is that it is only and solely promoting the position of warriors in xp groups and raids:
Other classes solo better than we do.
Quadders get infinitely faster xp than we do.
Same for AE groups restricted typically to wiz/enc/clr mostly, without monks.
We could so far slay and tank low blues at a fast rate and still keep it efficient.
Now I very much doubt we will in our crippled form.
Indirectly it promoted once again the holy-trinity and reduced once again the versatily in groups and reinforced monk raid/xp marginalisation.
Warrior first but any other class, is balanced when they are not twice or three time more numerous in groups and raids.
It wasn't the case before, it is even less the case now.
So from a too warrior intensive game, melee centric, we are gone to an even more warrior centric game.
I can't call that balanced, justified nor reasonnable.
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Alexyi
10-25-2002, 06:34 AM
"No...a soloing warrior would rather have a cobalt BP (AC 45, +12 STR/STA/DEX, 100 pt right-click post-combat heal) or some similar BP (heavy rubicite, heraldic plate, etc.). The prices are similar, though"
#$(*, I would love to have that too, where you get one of those? Kunark? Ah hell man, all monks got from kunark was crescent; baby! But you keep on trucking; hear?
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From a Warrior perspective on soloing/Fungi:
Most soloing Wars will tell you exactly the same thing as soloing Monks, or any soloing melee class. Regen > all. I'm a soloing 60 War (off and on) with average gear, but I do have a ToD, and I'd trade my Thurg BP for a fungi any day of the week. I do know that I couldn't solo without a slowing weapon, period. For me, my ToD doesn't make fights easier or more efficient, it makes them possible. Monks, on the other hand, could solo without any form of slow and I was never 100% convinced about the fairness of that.
From a Warrior perspective on the nerf:
I think they had the right idea and implemented it in completely the wrong way. I wasn't too thrilled about high AC monks in magic pajamas tanking better than I could whilst wearing 3 gazillion lbs of plate steel. Thing is, that problem never happened with my peers which are really my guild monks - I've seen them tank and they couldn't do it as well as I could. The monks that outtanked me were the top 10%, and I don't really tend to hang with that 10% anyway.
Not all Warriors are cackling gleefully about this - What most of us were complaining about was that top 10% of monks, and that hasn't been the thing that got fixed. I'm sorry we got the rest of you guys nerfed, because that wasn't our wish or intention at all.
--
Tarsk Longstrider (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=78104), BigBaldBarb
Warlord of the Wolves o' the North
~Omerta~Xev~</p>
If the nerf was to stop Monks from soloing then there are 90% of the other classes out there that need to be "balanced".
The "change" Verant made was not well thought out and simply did not adjust the class in the way they had posted it would. I would not doubt a change in the neat future.
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Nice post Tarsk <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
P.S. Another reason why monks solo decently compared to warriors is our haste. We can be self hasted to 81% such as myself whereas a warrior would only be at 41%. Thats what really made a big difference. Get yourself that Pirate Eyepatch (forget the exact name but casts Captain Nalots Quickening 20% spell haste for 20 mins) that casts a self HASTE spell and you will be at 61% self haste and see a big difference in soloing.
I know our Guild Rogues and Warriors can both solo shrooms just as Monks do.
On the Other hand a well equipped Paladin can actually go afk while soloing and come back with a dead mob at his feet and no downtime whatsoever.
Paladin in my Guild with that Srra 2 hander that procs 175 hp heal can pull a shroom , hit attack , go afk and come back with a dead shroom at his feet and sometimes with more HP than when he started.
Openhand Thunderfist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=159507)
http://www.users.on.net/arehn/openhandsig.jpg
Lotus Cult ! (http://www.lotuscult.com)
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Thanks for your post Tarsk. I think that your experience is similar to that of all the rest of us. We read about, or heard about some monk, in some guild, on some other server, tanking like a champ. But, in our own guilds, on our own raids, the idea of letting monk do the tanking was ridiculous and simply didn't happen. I'm in a 50's-60's guild that does Velious content. Our Sensei *never* tanks unless we have *zero* 55 plus plate classes available as Second Assist and even then, he's the add tank. And when he is pressed into that role, guess what? We're trying to find a tank to bring in asap. Thankfully, we always seem to have at least one plate tank available. I imagine if we had none there to be MA, we'd just fold up our tents and cancel the event.
It's nice to see that some warriors are basing their reactions on their own experience and not just reading steelwarrior.org and fohguild.org and believing everything they read. The top 3% of monks aren't even feeling the nerf. That's why they aren't posting. The more it becomes evident that end game SOL monks (you know, the ones tanking Avatar of War /snicker) are untouched, the more likely the plate class hatemongers get after monks again with more calls for nerfing. Of course, once Verant caves to that pressure, there won't be anything done for the average geared mid 50's-60 monk pulling in ToV, but what can ya do?
You think the Verant folks sit around invis watching or HoT raids? please. If the only raids you watch are the ones done by FoH or LoS, of course you are going to see a warped vision of what is really happening out there. When every message board is filled with level 37's ranting about something they read at the FoH board, it gives the impression that the problem is rampant, when it's really such an insignificant issue that it's really a *non issue*.
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Thanks Tarsk, I really appreciated your post.
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Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=266873), Iksar Monk of Xev.
</div>
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Dubious member of Hawkestone (http://pub72.ezboard.com/bhawkestone).
</div>
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"I stare, it stares back.
I long to know its feelings.
It demurs. Lunch, then."
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Okay, not that it matters in the greater scheme of things with regards to this topic, but I'm willing to learn.
I still think that a 15 pt a tick regen, when I have nothing else (no AAXP regen, no natural regen, no effects or potions) is overrated for soloing and I'd still rather have the extra AC, HP and stats.
However, I have a friend (yes, he's a monkee) who has a fungi, and maybe I can borrow it from him over a weekend and test it out to put my mind at ease one way or another.
Peace out.
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Frikking EZ-Board screwed up my sig. Grrrrrr.... >:(~~
Temp Sig: Acerbic/Arbolo/Shaemus/Cenadwen/Wuggum/Atomica/Aberlee/Charmas...all on The Nameless
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What you're stating now Thorny is a preference rather than a blanket statement... so you can't be anything other that right in that.
Your preference for the AC and HP is a perfectly valid one.
Would be interested if you could return though and give a before and after comparison using your friends fungi though. Even if that's just to let us know you prefer the War BP.
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<div>
Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=266873), Iksar Monk of Xev.
</div>
<div>
Dubious member of Hawkestone (http://pub72.ezboard.com/bhawkestone).
</div>
<div>
"I stare, it stares back.
I long to know its feelings.
It demurs. Lunch, then."
</div></p>
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