Parse data: guild fight, class DPS and rankings

Took some parse data from guild/alliance last uber fight. Names have been replaced with class. I included total damage done as an indication how long each person fought. DPS is parsed on time engadged per individual and not as a whole. Someone who fought 5 minutes has their DPS figured for those 5 minutes only (first hit to last hit). Parse is taken from fight against Thall va Kelun in VT.





<table x:str border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="border-collapse: collapse;width:447"> <colgroup> <col width="136" style="width: 102pt"><col width="90" style="width: 68pt"> <col width="76" style="width: 57pt"><col width="109" style="width: 82pt"> </colgroup> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" width="136" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 102pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Player</td> <td width="90" style="width: 68pt; text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Damage</td> <td width="76" style="width: 57pt; text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> DPS</td> <td style="width: 144; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Rogue</td> <td x:num="99368" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 99,368</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 69.83</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Rogue</td> <td x:num="90013" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 90,013</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 64.71</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Rogue</td> <td x:num="85917" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 85,917</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 60.38</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Paladin</td> <td x:num="69604" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 69,604</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 49.40</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144"> Greater Akheva Bane</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Warrior</td> <td x:num="45053" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 45,053</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 49.13</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Monk</td> <td x:num="63923" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 63,923</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 46.12</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Monk</td> <td x:num="56407" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 56,407</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 44.80</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Ranger</td> <td x:num="56545" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 56,545</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 44.28</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Ranger</td> <td x:num="61702" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 61,702</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 44.04</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Ranger</td> <td x:num="62256" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 62,256</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 43.75</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Warrior</td> <td x:num="52330" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 52,330</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 36.85</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144"> Main Tank</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Warrior</td> <td x:num="11172" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 11,172</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 35.13</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Paladin</td> <td x:num="48315" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 48,315</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 34.58</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Paladin</td> <td x:num="48770" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 48,770</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 34.37</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Shadow Knight</td> <td x:num="46480" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 46,480</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 32.78</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Paladin</td> <td x:num="40413" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 40,413</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 29.43</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Warrior</td> <td x:num="39771" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 39,771</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 28.05</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Bard</td> <td x:num="39770" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 39,770</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 27.97</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Warrior</td> <td x:num="38612" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 38,612</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 27.17</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144"> Rampage Tank</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Bard</td> <td x:num="35068" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 35,068</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 26.03</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Bard</td> <td x:num="5932" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 5,932</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 23.17</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Bard</td> <td x:num="30317" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 30,317</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 21.32</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height:12.75pt"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> Beastlord</td> <td x:num="19780" style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 19,780</td> <td x:num style="text-align: left; color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px"> 15.22</td> <td style="color: windowtext; font-size: 10.0pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; text-align: general; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; border: medium none; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px" width="144">*</td> </tr> </table>



This is all straight melee damage, no procs, no bows.



If a warrior isn't focusing on aggro, they can do very comparable damage to a monk, and even more. That one warrior was not in the MT list for the fight, and therefor was using optimal weapons as appose to aggroing weapons.



If you have any other questions or want more data, let me know.


Dainin (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=696)


Human Grandmaster

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</a> </p>

One last thing. For people saying while monks haven't been used as main tanks for really uber encounters, they have for small things, like vindi, rhags and such. This means nothing in that level of gear, as demonstrated here:



www.shadowedsoul.com (http://www.shadowedsoul.com)



Nothing like a wizard main tank!


Dainin (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=696)


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Shadowed Soul (http://www.shadowedsoul.com)



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</a> </p>

what was the warr using who was directly blow the mt damage....you show 1 war doin dmg comparable to monk while one who is far below




<center>
<img src = "http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Unfiled/Images/Zelda-Title.gif"></img>

Wakha Mohle
Psymileyfaces</center></p>

4 Warriors in mt line (always have main tank order set in case things go wrong). All of them are weilding +hate weapons, though I couldn't tell you the specifics for each warrior.



Edit: the warrior with higher damage was NOT weilding +hate weapons.


Dainin (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=696)


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</a> </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showLocalUserPublicProfile?lo gin=dainin>Dainin</A> at: 10/17/02 10:52:04 am

I can't believe that BL was that sad on damage output. Were you able to capture his/her pet's damage and roll it into the BLs totals? That is where a BL gets the equivalent to double attack and slam/special attacks. And a BL uses alot of the same weapons a monk would choose to use.


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Pollyra 45 monk - Bellyra (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=293914) 54 cleric</p>

cool...wasnt asking specifics on wars gear, just the reason he was on lvl w/ main tank...thx




<center>
<img src = "http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Unfiled/Images/Zelda-Title.gif"></img>

Wakha Mohle
Psymileyfaces</center></p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I can't believe that BL was that sad on damage output. Were you able to capture his/her pet's damage and roll it into the BLs totals? That is where a BL gets the equivalent to double attack and slam/special attacks. And a BL uses alot of the same weapons a monk would choose to use. <hr></blockquote>



Beastlord was not able to use pet on this fight. I do know she is weilding 13/17 main and epic (13/21?) offhand.


Dainin (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=696)


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Shadowed Soul (http://www.shadowedsoul.com)



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</a> </p>

Average warrior dps is about 10-12 less then monk. Monks still did higher then rangers and warriors. Rogues might be doing a tad too much damage in relation to monks though. Perhaps a slight increase in monk dmg is warranted, but this is a small sample to parse. To make an accurate assesment you'd need to parse exp group fights and raid fights. You would need a minimum of 30 or so fights for each category. This would show the averages of each class. By having a larger sample you could throw out the gear argument. Something worth watching for anyway.


Chavr Wyrmbane ("")

60 Crusader

Druzzil Ro

"New and improved with 10% more healing power, satisfaction garunteed or 90% of your exp back"
</p>

Chavr, the parse (limited it may be, but we are only talking about this one atm) shows the warrior not wielding +hate did higher DPS than both the monks, by several points. While the top 2 rangers were very close to the second monk, 3rd was just 1 dps lower than the monk.. That puts them right at monk range easily, without using bows. I don't worry about rangers doing too little dmg at the end game.



More parses would be good though, least this is dmg and not about def for a change of pace around here. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">



edit: Cause I'm tired


Gestalt's Profile (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=170950) Grandmaster

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Exiled Alliance</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ugestaltkiller.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Gestalt Killer</A> at: 10/17/02 11:24:53 am

A warrior outdamaged ALL the monks. How did he do that? Through his choice of equipment. Clearly warriors have weapons available to them that allow them to do similar and better damage than a monk. This equipment may well be very hard to get and/or come off top boss mobs, but it exists and allows the warrior to do something that was never intended.



Sound familiar?




</p>

[Varaho1]

What weapons were the monks and the warrior using exactly?


</p>

Although it was limited sample because it was a single parse, it was a 15+ minute fight, on the same mob, with all the players having roughly the same buffs. That's a pretty good parse.


Syke (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=3700) / Stoke (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=3699), Guild <a href=http://www.phank.com>Phank</a> of Druzzil Ro</p>

I parse every raid I attend, and all have similar results as far as DPS. I do not have the time nor the energy to post parses over the last 2 months :P



In order for a warrior to tank properly they have to take a hit on their DPS. Its virtually impossible to keep aggro on raids now without +hate items, which unfortunately do not have as good dmg/dly ratios as other weapons available. In addition, disc defensive is a big hit on DPS. If taunt was improved to a reasonable level on ubers this wouldn't be as much of an issue.


Dainin (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=696)


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</a> </p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> What weapons were the monks and the warrior using exactly? <hr></blockquote>



As I said I don't know at this time. I will have to ask them all specifically what they where weilding for that fight.


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</a> </p>

Info like this is nice for comparison but it would be much more useful if we knew what weapons were being used. Presumably people in an uber guild would all be using close to the best weapons available for their class but who's to know whether all the monks were new to the guild and still wielding tranq staffs or whether all the warriors were using BBB?



Not saying this is the case, just saying it's pretty hard to judge without knowing the weapons being used. I would guess that the MT was wielding 2 EB weapons but I doubt the other warriors were or they might steal aggro...


<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=85547>Khumak</a>

60 Warrior

Mith Marr

(Imperial Guardians)</p>

Actually I think this is a very good example ...you will never have "all things equal" ...you can see the 4 warriors actually"tanking" or preparing to have damage where ya might expect it them to be on the list ...most other classes all grouped together for the most part showing ..even though I'm sure they didn't have identical weapons(as it will be in reality) they still grouped as "classes" in the damage dept ... but the one warrior going for damage seemed to not know is roll in "The Vision" ..and of course he could have had a super uberX2 weapon ..as there will always will be the one Uber..Uber in the classes ...but its scarey how far above the monks the rogues land...and how close everyone else landed to the monks =(


</p>

Man, look at the warrior explain high DPS using the same hypothetical argument monks were using in trying to explain how they can tank: high end gear. Blah blah blah. It's hard to determine hype from bullshit these days, but log parses speak volumes. Someone please sticky this so the people "balancing" the game can see the other side of the coin.


<hr>
<center>
SMAXOR (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=39697)

60 Iksar Grandmaster • Terris-Thule

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<font size="-5">...P.S. pH34r //3!</font>
</center></p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Info like this is nice for comparison but it would be much more useful if we knew what weapons were being used. Presumably people in an uber guild would all be using close to the best weapons available for their class but who's to know whether all the monks were new to the guild and still wielding tranq staffs or whether all the warriors were using BBB?



Not saying this is the case, just saying it's pretty hard to judge without knowing the weapons being used. I would guess that the MT was wielding 2 EB weapons but I doubt the other warriors were or they might steal aggro... <hr></blockquote>



Everyone has ntov or better weapons.



A quote taken directly from a warrior in my guild on the same discussion (rampage tank in parse above):



Actually we jockey for position #2 on the Hate list, so if the MT dies we don't have far to go if we are in the MT list to get to the top. MT's on deck cycle after pulling aggro, not before.



Like I said, I don't know the weapons, but I should be able to find out later.


Dainin (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=696)


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Shadowed Soul (http://www.shadowedsoul.com)



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</a> </p>

[Wubao]

The high DPS warrior does almost 20k less total damage than the monks.



Why this?



Was he not in the fight as long?



-Wu


</p>

[Zildjin]

I also find it highly amusing the warrior Khumak tries to invalidate the results by playing the 'better gear' game.



I guess Khumak is forgetting the monk nerf came about from the monks like myself that can hit 1500ac and well over 6000hps when buffed. We get these stats(and thus a nerf) from uber gear, not just from being a monk.



But when this logic is applied to a warrior doing monk damage, omg there must be something wrong with the monks or the warrior with regards to their gear.


The Relentless (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=231623>Rjey</a>

<a), Cazic Thule</p>

Too many posts on the same subject. Anyway to add data to the argument:



Case in point, I wield a Fleshgrinder and a Frostbringer and use a CoF for haste. Both of the 60 monks in my guild that play regularly use a Tstaff and have less haste than I do (between 21% and 31%) yet they do more damage than I do. I average about 45 dps while they average around 60 or so. If I pull out my Dismay axe (44/44) my average remains about the same. I will have to wait til I get home to be able to post exact numbers. With equal haste they would pull even farther ahead. I group with a rogue who wields Horn of Hsagra plus epic and he regularly averages over 70 dps.



VI's stated "vision" for how warrior/monk/rogue are supposed to compare dps-wise comes to a ratio of 1.0/1.2/1.4. If you use my dps values as an example we come out to 1.0/1.33/1.55. So from my experience monks and rogues both put out more damage than they should relative to warriors. Given gear differences it's hard to say whether this is significant. That is a small enough deviation that it doesn't bother me.



If the difference is shown to be much higher in either direction though then something is wrong. A scale skewed such that the ratios are something like 1.0/0.9/1.5 would mean monks should get a dps boost. By the same token a scale skewed to 1.0/1.8/2.5 would mean warriors should get a dps boost.


Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ukhumak.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Khumak (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=85547>Khumak</a>

60) at: 10/17/02 12:22:07 pm

I'm guessing the warrior with the highest DPS was using a 2 hander, and the monks were using 1 handers.



Just my guess looking at the raw parse.


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<TABLE BORDER=2 CELLSPACING=3 CELLPADDING=2>
<TR>
<TD>Smithing</TD>
<TD>244</TD>
<TD>Brewing</TD>
<TD>195</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Fletching</TD>
<TD>178</TD>
<TD>Baking</TD>
<TD>174</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Pottery</TD>
<TD>135</TD>
<TD>Begging</TD>
<TD>200</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE></p>

im sorry khumak but your weapons just dont stack up to a tstaff... though i dont know why your 2handdamage is low...... you should see a boost over your 1hand damage.



a 29/30 will outdamage a 9/16 and 17/28 all day long... by 20or so dps at 60. part of the issue might be the 44/44 is slow... /shrug



either way you are pretty close to their dps, and with a small upgrade in weapons(prob just offhand) would up your dps significantly.



lets say you got a willsipper for your main hand then put your main hand in off, your dps would prob jump 5-10 dps which would put you just bout dead on for the ratios.








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[Varaho1]

I am more concerned with what weapons were used because of this:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> This is all straight melee damage, no procs, no bows.<hr></blockquote>



If the monks were using damage proc weapons, then they were indeed doing greater DPS than indicated.



But then again the Paladin did outdamage everyone but the Rogues.


</p>

Khumak (sorry if I butchered your name).



The 60 monks you're referring to almost HAVE to have more haste than you, monk epic is more haste by itself than you have, plus if all they had was an FBSS, that would put them close to double your haste.



Unless you have 2 60th monks in your guild that haven't put in the time to get their epics (which are very low on the difficulty scale).



Fizmunk


</p>

My parsing was from a raid perspective where everyone was fully buffed with max chanter haste and max shammy buffs. Both of our monks do have epics but that doesn't stack with chanter haste. Willsapper does less damage than fleshgrinder (12/19 plus 160DD proc). Frosty is 12/22 with a 60DD plus debuff. I could get a higher dps weapon for my offhand but it would be less aggro and this combo still compares well to the best 2hander dps I have available. My parse included my procs (they come out to about 4dps).



I realise that Tstaff outdamages my 44/44 axe but there is no comparable warrior weapon for a similar price. Fleshgrinder plus Frostbringer costs about 65k on mith marr. Tstaff costs about 30k. Dismay axe only costs about 8k but there's no droppable upgrade from there that's even remotely in the same price range (Narandi's lance maybe but it's more like 45k and due to lower skill caps it might do less damage even with the dot) and we don't have access to ntov weapons yet.



Another thing I should mention is that I am almost always MT if I am raiding or grouping so my DPS would go up a bit due to lack of riposts and such if I was not the MT. I don't know how significant that comes out to be. I very rarely use defensive so that isn't a major influence on my DPS.


Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ukhumak.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Khumak (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=85547>Khumak</a>

60) at: 10/17/02 12:54:35 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I'm guessing the warrior with the highest DPS was using a 2 hander, and the monks were using 1 handers.



Just my guess looking at the raw parse. <hr></blockquote>



To my knowledge every warriors was dual wielding. I know for a fact that the warrior who got the highest DPS was dual wielding.





Edit: fixed spelling errors


Dainin (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=696)


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</a> </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showLocalUserPublicProfile?lo gin=dainin>Dainin</A> at: 10/17/02 12:49:18 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> If the monks were using damage proc weapons, then they were indeed doing greater DPS than indicated.



But then again the Paladin did outdamage everyone but the Rogues. <hr></blockquote>



Ah... but then ANYBODY using a damage proc weapon is doing greater damage than indicated. To single this out to monks is foolish.




Dainin (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=696)


Human Grandmaster

Servant of Quellious

Shadowed Soul (http://www.shadowedsoul.com)



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</a> </p>

[Jonnyman]

Exactly what kind of weapons were used in this fight is quite important. Figuring its a guild in VT, i would guess you are all using Ssra+ weps(GMUs, Caen's 2h, Fangs from cursed, and all keeping avatar up) and all of the other melees had Emp or cursed weps or the like...correct? I would like to parse something from one of my guilds fights in VT and see the difference, because most of us are using the best possible weps atm for our specific classes.



Thanks for posting that parse tho, very interesting






<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=27839>Sensei Jonnyman</a>
, Grandmaster of <a href=http://home.insightbb.com/~nightbane/News.html>NightBane</a>


Karana





</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Exactly what kind of weapons were used in this fight is quite important. Figuring its a guild in VT, i would guess you are all using Ssra+ weps(GMUs, Caen's 2h, Fangs from cursed, and all keeping avatar up) and all of the other melees had Emp or cursed weps or the like...correct? I would like to parse something from one of my guilds fights in VT and see the difference, because most of us are using the best possible weps atm for our specific classes.



Thanks for posting that parse tho, very interesting <hr></blockquote>



I would love to see additional parses from other guilds. Please post them if you can.



We have just recently had our first entire clearing of VT. Cursed has dropped ONE pair of fangs for us, and I believe 1 warrior sword. Emp has been stingy and our alliance has yet to see a Caen's. We do, however, have several SKs that are very happy right now <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p">



Overall, everyone does have very comparable weapons. The warrior with the best equipment (offensive and defensive) right now is the warrior that was the MT in the parse above. The warrior with the cursed sword wasn't present.



I'll post weapons being weilded when I can.


Dainin (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=696)


Human Grandmaster

Servant of Quellious

Shadowed Soul (http://www.shadowedsoul.com)



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</a> </p>

We need more parses like this to get warriors nerfed offensively.


</p>

Actually most of the parses I have seen from uber guilds show warriors down near the bottom of the DPS scale along with bards and paladins. I am open to the idea that warriors do more damage relative to monks and rogues than I thought they did but I think if we see a large sample of parses with similarly equipped melees we're going to see rogues at the top by a wide margin with monks close behind. Guess we'll see though.


<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=85547>Khumak</a>

60 Warrior

Mith Marr

(Imperial Guardians)</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Actually most of the parses I have seen from uber guilds show warriors down near the bottom of the DPS scale along with bards<hr></blockquote>That's the funniest thing I've heard all day! Warriors with triple attack down with bards with single attack. Yeah, right.


Syke (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=3700) / Stoke (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=3699), Guild <a href=http://www.phank.com>Phank</a> of Druzzil Ro</p>

[Fopoodzo]

Yep BL without pets do very sad damage. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">





I think this just goes to show that with the monk defence nerf, monks need a proportional offence/damage increase to keep their same place in the (defence warrior>monk>rogue/offence rogue/monk/warrior) pure melee setup.



So post nerf they'd be moved more toward the rogue in defence (i.e. -ve) and more toward the rogue in offence (i.e. +ve).



This would keep the pre-nerf balance and still stop monks from tanking in place of a warrior ever.











It's also VERY interesting how much damage warriors are doing and that rangers (without bow damage) are equalling and out damaging monks. Now with extra tanking ability, spells, bow damage and melee damage it's hard to see a down side to them. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">


</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Warrior 45,053 49.13

Monk 63,923 46.12

Monk 56,407 44.80 <hr></blockquote>



From your list you actually show two Monks who generated more total damage as having a lower DPS than the Warrior right above them on the list. How exactly does that work? Did the Warrior join the battle late?



Edit: 49 DPS seems suspiciously high. I would wonder if it wasn't some kind of abnormality or problem in the parsing program unless its showing up regularly.




</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/uglatius2.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Glatius2</A> at: 10/17/02 2:23:09 pm

the only warrior i know who has the flurry says with a good 2hander he jumped way up on dps.

he just plays to have fun, so ive never bugged him to spend the time parsing some fights to see how high it really is.

apprantly 3rd lvl flurry is 20 percent chance at doing 2 more primary attacks. so statiscaly every 5th attack you get a free 6th round.





other side note that i think varent missed. almost all aa they gave monks that are worth squat are DEFENSIVE aa, i mean come on, even up to a few weeks before them saying they are going to nerf monks they gave us physical enchanment, 2 percent 2 hp, avoidance, mitigation(i think 2, dont shoot me if not)


</p>

Any parse that you do on a mob with high ac will bring warriors up towards monk damage and rogues will increase their lead.



I looked at a very old parse of IV and the monks were right aroudn 55dps. Rogues were around 85dps and warriors were around 45dps.



However, in an experience group with a warrior that had acrylia bladed and I believe a +hate weapon he did 55dps and I did 90dps and the rogue did 90dps. Of course the rogue also was using epic in main. I was using FoN and Primal. I should note, however, that the warrior wasn't using avatar. So that also hurt his DPS.



I do not believe warriors need any damage increase. Not too long ago Furor was talking about how he could reach 150-170dps against shrooms with savagery. I can't come close to that. (And I shouldn't, but I find it amusing that he thinks warriors don't do eough dmage then posts that number.)



And any rogue that asks for more damage needs to be shot.


</p>

Quote



-----

I do not believe warriors need any damage increase. Not too long ago Furor was talking about how he could reach 150-170dps against shrooms with savagery. I can't come close to that. (And I shouldn't, but I find it amusing that he thinks warriors don't do eough dmage then posts that number.)

-----



I find those numbers hard to believe. If savagery increases warrior dps that much then it should increase other melee dps by that much too. I would guess that either monks and rogues with savagery can surpass that number or that Furor was pulling numbers out of his ass that day.


<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=85547>Khumak</a>

60 Warrior

Mith Marr

(Imperial Guardians)</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Another thing I should mention is that I am almost always MT if I am raiding or grouping so my DPS would go up a bit due to lack of riposts and such if I was not the MT. I don't know how significant that comes out to be. I very rarely use defensive so that isn't a major influence on my DPS.<hr></blockquote>





I'd say not getting parried/riposted/dodged is a very significant increase. There is a reason everyone tries to stand behind the mob besides just avoiding riposte damage. =p


</p>

Oh, I am sure that with Caeyn's staff + avatar + savagery + monk epic I could beat those numbers. But not by alot. Warriors are fine.



They get access to very nice weapons before monks do. 12/19 is better than anything a monk can get in a single group outside of ST. ANd best monk 1h is 17/19 and best warrior is 16/19 barring bane crap. Monk weapons aren't that much better than warrior weapons. Though warriors sure do make them out to be.



Of coruse I remember in Kunark when I actually was outdamage by warriors. That was just awful.


</p>

Tstaff is much easier to get than any 12/19 warrior weapon that I know of (Fleshgrinder?). Monks are also on their own damage table (superior to the warrior one) so a monk will do more damage with the same weapon that a warrior uses. I haven't seen a parse between a monk and warrior using the same weapons so I don't know how much this difference is.



Back in the Kunark days yes, warriors were overpowered. I agree with that. We had our day in the sun, we enjoyed it, we knew it would change. We never really got nerfed from there, we just never got any upgrades while all the other classes did. In my opinion the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction though.


<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=85547>Khumak</a>

60 Warrior

Mith Marr

(Imperial Guardians)</p>

So.. Warriors get roughly 20% more hitpoints, take probably easily 20% LESS damage than monks, and they pay for it by doing 20% less damage than monks, which, at the high end, doesn't even seem to be the case.



Who's unbalanced?



I can also tell you that if the vision says monks only do 1.2x warrior damage, then why bother. We tank as well as rogues now and they do quite a bit more according to this parse.



Swilv.


</p>

That was just arguing against people that always said that not only do monks get superior damage tables but they get far superioir weapons. Which is just not true. And I can buy that 44/44 for a hell of alot less than a TS. So actually warriors get superior weapons before you get to raid level content.


</p>

Tstaff outdamages the 44/44. Neither one requires anything remotely approaching a raid level encounter.


<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=85547>Khumak</a>

60 Warrior

Mith Marr

(Imperial Guardians)</p>

[Junu Peeth]

I am one of the monks in Khumak's Guild. Btw Khumak, both monks now have 31% haste plus epic.



We do outdamage him still but surprisingly the gap has decreased lately. Maybe we can go attack something to gether and get some mor solid data.


Junu Peeth (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=157667), Grandmaster Human Monk on Mithaniel Marr

"I read the 1200+ monk nerf thread and lived!" (Got the T-Shirt too)</p>

I'm interested in this whole weapon-choice angle. Is it a reality that Warriors can do Monk damage if they just sacrifice taunting ability? Is their current damage more of a choice than a limitation?



We need parsed logs. We need people in the Monk community who have the resources to do some testing and parsing to step up and publish their results to the Dev team. We need people to argue our case and be our advocates, like Furor is an advocate for warriors.




Seske Corpse

52nd Level Monk

Luclin Server

Circle of Radiance Guild (http://www.angelfire.com/geek/jvriffel/eq.htm)

My Magelo Profile (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=337819)</p>

" Any parse that you do on a mob with high ac will bring warriors up towards monk damage and rogues will increase their lead. "



Those wouldn't be the same mobs that high end monks were purportedly tanking now would they?


</p>

At least not on raids and not by choice. Almost all monk tanking is done solo or in haphazard pickup xp groups. It's too much work to dig up any old raid parses now, but from what I recall once a melee gets primal and better, the melee damage comes damn close to monk. Monks don't get nearly as large an upgrade from primal or better as other classes do. Monks do gain, but the others gain a lot more.


</p>

Those who think it's so easy to get a Tstaff, just try and camp one. I started at level 58. 2 levels and 23 aaxp later (for me, that's nearly a year), I still have never even SEEN one drop. I have gotten at least one of most everything else that drops from KC. Oh, and I'd guesstimate that about 60+% of that xp is from KC. Sure, I could always buy one, but that's cheating... <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">




Brother Xiaolong Lee (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=41877), Grandmaster</p>

Here are a few parses I found. Most of my recent ones were lost when I upgraded my computer.



This is from fighting the Itraer Vius a long time ago. I think rogues all had primal and monks had primal+. Warriors had assorted weapons. They get so damn many. heh



Monk 55.5

Monk 55.3

Monk 62.7



Rogue 85.4

Rogue 80.2

Rogue 80.2



Warrior 46.2

Warrior 41.6

Warrior 42.2



Another IV fight. Some upgrades lots of tunare daggers.



Monk 54.8

Monk 59.8

Monk 59.5



Rogue 92.6

Rogue 92.3

Rogue 84.2



Warrior 45.4

Warrior 48.7

Warrior 44.2



These were quie some time ago though.



And from just recently with a rogue with epic main, monk with FON + Primal and warrior with a 16/19 and something else that wasn't proccing avatar. THis was in chardok at kennels. Just a little off topic but did you know that kennels is a tougher camp than king/queen? Amazing camp. heh



Monk 97.3

Rogue 101.1

Warrior 66.7



Remember, I was the only one with avatar. With avatar I expect another 20% to be added to both rogue and warrior. So rogue would be at 120dps and warrior at 80dps. And of course warrior was tanking and still did great damage.



What is sad is that a rogue with a 15/25 main outdamage me with a 15/18 main + avatar. Oh to be rogue. Of course I was pulling but I don't remember ever seeing more than a hit or two on my screen before I was on a mob.






</p>

Well either they nerf rogue offensively or increase our damage tables to compensate. I dont like being a mediocre damage dealer at high level and a bad tanker to boot.


</p>

Yep rogues need a dps increase



/dodges all the bullets =p



Interesting topic.. keep posting those parses



Slickk

Marauder


</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Monks are also on their own damage table (superior to the warrior one) so a monk will do more damage with the same weapon that a warrior uses.<hr></blockquote>



VI says monks are on their own damage table that is better than a warrior/rogue. Ok, I'm willing to take a leap of blind faith and accept that (well, maybe). However, how much of an increase does being on this damage table give? 20dps? 0.1dps? Somewhere in the middle? In the end, the only thing that matters is the parses. Doesn't matter is monks are on a "better damage table"... that point is not valid. That table may not actually be any better than a warrior's or rogue's.



Berfert


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[LaotzuQigong]

Keep in mind that in order to really compare monk versus warrior DPS you really need to take all factors into account.



1) Gear setup. Monks tend to concentrate heavily on maximum dps weapon selection and gear to maximize DPS. Warriors tend to gear towards tanking, using either heavy hate or proccing items to grab aggro.



2) Mob position. In front, mobs tend to parry/riposte/dodge/block alot. This can heavily skew damage when someone is tanking.



3) Mob AC. On mobs with extraordinarily high AC versus Attack (good example is VT mobs, or mobs like XTC once you get nailed with attack debuff AE), the shift of weapon effectiveness tends to lean heavily towards 2hders versus 1hders. At this point, damage bonus becomes a major factor. Also, unresistable proc damage has a much higher relative value when your overall melee dps drops. IE, 120 unresistable proc is still 120 regardless of AC, making the DPS relatively larger as a percentage when minimum hits are common.



4) Buff selection. When raiding, 15 buff limit is hit VERY often. This often means that tanking warriors do not have the option of taking buffs that monks often can. For example, how many warriors are actually able to keep up Avatar, Sk hate buff, Cop, Vog, Savagery, and bard attack buffs and still all the buffs they need for a fight?



5) Disc being used. Defensive or Evasive skews DPS alot. Not to mention many warriors never use their offensive discs during a fight just in case the MT dies.



Yes, monks get an advantage in terms of attack (adds damage) and get a slightly better damage table, however, I would suspect that if a warrior were to forego hate weapons, not use defensive, use their offensive disciplines with the same frequency as monks, and concentrate on DPS gear such as Vengeance and AoB items, they're alot closer to monk DPS than they think.



So, imho, the best way to compare monk vs. warrior DPS would be to outfit both classes for maximum attack, equal buffs, and similar quality weapons, then parse against a range of mobs as opposed to taking anecdotal comparisons of monk A versus warrior A.



As for weapon choice, I would wager a warrior with a shovel would probably outdamage a tstaff on a high ac mob any day of the week.



For those that don't fully understand the implication of 2hd versus 1hders on high ac mobs, I did a comparative parse of a FoN/Primal versus Tstaff across a range of mobs. Against mobs like shrooms in Seb, Fon (15/18 + 160 dd) and Primal (15/20 + 100 str/dex/agi/attk) does about 120 dps versus 80 to 90 for tstaff with the same buffs. Compare this with XTC (minus 300 attack buff, and overwrites primal buff), where the Tstaff outdamages Fon/Primal by a good 15 percent not even counting in the proc. Weapon selection makes a HUGE difference.



LaotzuQigong

60 Grandmaster

Legendary

The Tribunal


</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> So, imho, the best way to compare monk vs. warrior DPS would be to outfit both classes for maximum attack, equal buffs, and similar quality weapons, then parse against a range of mobs as opposed to taking anecdotal comparisons of monk A versus warrior A.<hr></blockquote>



So are you saying the parse data posted here is invalid for some reason?



If a Warrior is going for max DPS and even gets close to a Monk, isn't something wrong?





--

Stonetooth Sleestak

60 Iksar Monk

Druzzil Ro




</p>

No, what he is saying is that parsed data without a detailed description of the groups, buffs, and weapons of the people involved has a value of zero. The only value data like this has is to troll.



Raid buffed at max enchanter haste means nothing. The real questions are:



Who was in the bard groups? With the big step up in attack and having the superior bard haste over enchanter haste this makes a difference of about 15% in dps.



Who was has primal, and who was consistantly swapping it in and out during the fight? Who was able to get a shaman to keep avatar on him if they did not have primal?



What weapons were involved? While high speed one-handers might be nice against low AC mobs, a nasty two-hander will excede the damage output against high AC mobs.



Who was battle rezzed? Was the portion of the fight that they had rez effects included in the parse?



Until the at least the above questions are answered regarding any parse, I just assume it is a self serving troll. This is even more true when it is an isolated parse followed by a post high on opinion content and low on fight description.



Dilbis Xll

60th Human Bard

Tarew Marr


</p>

[Wubao]

Glautius and I asked the exact same question ...



<blockquote>Quote:<hr> From your list you actually show two Monks who generated more total damage as having a lower DPS than the Warrior right above them on the list. How exactly does that work? Did the Warrior join the battle late?<hr></blockquote>



There's about 20k damage difference between the high DPS warrior and the monks he's up there with.



How'd the warrior generate such high DPS but such low damage?



Seems like an anomaly. Like when a baseball player has a high batting average because he's got 150 less at bats than the next person chasing him for the batting crown.



So c'mon, give up the goods ... What's up with this?



-Wu


</p>

[Twister77]

Here is some more data, a parse from my guilds Diabo Xi Xin Thall fight yesterday. I'll include those weapons i know, asked around a bit now, but still dont know all of them. Most people should be Avatard, but not all.



I removed my procs from the damage, since i cant parse the proc damage from other people and it would inflate my damage.



Diabo Xi Xin Thall Fight, Thu 17.10.02

Class Damage DPS



Monk 51.549 78.8 ( Fangs + Prismatic )

Monk 47.684 73.3 ( Gharns + GMU ? )

Monk 47.498 72.4 ( thats me, using a Caens )

Rogue 42.291 66.4 ( Tendonslicer + Primal )

Monk 43.191 65.8

Ranger 41.392 64.5

Monk 40.228 63.1 ( Fangs + Fist of Mithril )

Rogue 39.438 61.0

Monk 39.130 60.2

Rogue 37.245 59.6

Warrior 38.556 59.5

Ranger 37.070 58.8 ( Claw of Vyz'Drah + Primal )

Monk 37.016 58.4

Monk 37.032 58.2

Rogue 36.778 56.4

Ranger 35.791 55.1 ( Claw of Vyz'Drah + Vyz'Drahs Render of Souls )

Ranger 33.829 53.1

Beastlord+warder 34.038 52.6

Warrior 25.199 52.5 ( joined the fight 3 minutes late )

SK 31.897 51.3 ( Emp 2hs )

Paladin 29.217 49.7

Paladin 24.961 39.06

Monk 23.395 37.4

Warrior 24.315 36.5 ( Maintank, BF + BoC? )

SK 23.586 36.2 ( Blindfoe )

Mageepicpet 10.487 34.8 ( joined late )

Warrior 22.656 34.6 ( Rampagetank )

SK 19.167 33.3

Mageepicpet 20.230 32.9

Spectrepet 11.053 23.17 ( joined late )

Spectrepet 13.420 20.9





-------------



DXXT 315.270 472.7 <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p">





Here is the Parsercreated HTML file (http://user.cs.tu-berlin.de/~twister/eq/diaboxixinthall.html) for those who want a little more info.

Judging by the numbers, i guess our placement sucked, and rogues couldnt really BS ... cant remember right now, after 3 days of VT VT and more VT, til deep in the night, all my memors are blurred <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p">



Oh, and one more thing: This clearly shows we have to many monks <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p">


http://user.cs.tu-berlin.de/~twister/eq/sig.jpg

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Geded Thrillseeker, Gnome Archmage (retired)

Srophkor Duck (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=691) <Arch Overseers>, Lizzzard <strike>Grandmaster</strike> Rampagetank

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</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/utwister77.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Twister77</A>* http://user.cs.tu-berlin.de/~twister/icon_lightning.jpg at: 10/18/02 5:44:00 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>

No, what he is saying is that parsed data without a detailed description of the groups, buffs, and weapons of the people involved has a value of zero. The only value data like this has is to troll.

<hr></blockquote>



Rubbish. It is a good indicative measure of how those classes stack up with attainable weaponry. So for a VT capable guild we see that the aimed balance for melée is broken. A Warrior using offensive out-damages a Monk. Yet the warrior is choosing to reduce their defense whereas the monk has had that thrust upon him. No choice and inferior at the damage output.



Real world situations are all that really count at the end of the day. What weapons are being used, what buffs are present are irrelevant. Only the outcome and this parse fits in with the data we are seeing.



To sum up melee balance.



1. Rangers need heavily nerfed

2. Monks don't outdamage warriors and deserve their Defense back

3. Rogues need nerfed down to 40% above baseline instead of 100% above.

4. Beastlords are an utter joke.


</p>

[Varaho1]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Real world situations are all that really count at the end of the day. What weapons are being used, what buffs are present are irrelevant. Only the outcome and this parse fits in with the data we are seeing.



To sum up melee balance.



1. Rangers need heavily nerfed

2. Monks don't outdamage warriors and deserve their Defense back

3. Rogues need nerfed down to 40% above baseline instead of 100% above.

4. Beastlords are an utter joke. <hr></blockquote>



Interesting, using your method and Twister77's logs monks should be nerfed in DPS, regardless of buffs, weapons, and positioning.



Such information is quite necessary for data to be valid.



Edit: I am not saying nerf monk DPS, I am illustrating why the data is important.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/uvaraho1.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Varaho1</A>* http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/white_fire.gif at: 10/18/02 4:20:25 am

"What weapons were the monks and the warrior using exactly? "



I believe I'm the second monk on the list. Typically use the following:



Horn of Chaos - 14/18

Fist of Lightning - 15/18





_________________

Kaisi Musashi

Shadowed Soul


</p>

[Fopoodzo]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Well either they nerf rogue offensively or increase our damage tables to compensate. I dont like being a mediocre damage dealer at high level and a bad tanker to boot. <hr></blockquote>







Neither warrior or rogue damage needs to be nerfed, HOWEVER in light of the defensive nerf to monks and the extra defense given to other classes, it's pretty clear monks need a small damage increase to regain their balance with the other classes.


</p>

No one's explained yet how the monks did 20k more damage and lower DPS than the highest warrior.


</p>

Did it feel good to be nerfed? No. Then no other class needs to be nerfed. Monks need offensive improvement to counterbalance their defense reduction, pure and simple.



I don't care how bad some members of different classes reacted to the monk nerf, the majority don't feel that way. I have noticed that more players have gone out of their way to provide me heals when I am soloing.



It does us no good to argue that other classes should be nerfed. It distorts the message: we need an offensive improvement.



I am not flaming anyone, but why argue negatives? How does it help my monk to have a ranger or rogue reduced? It doesn't.


</p>

http://www.7up.org/fox/dps.gif



have no idea what DPS the rogues had in this fight.. but the ranger which was using bow from Lord seru and has all the aa abilites, had about the same dps.. with BOW



so cry me a river guys, monks can do alot of damage.. and we can do it when the mob is almost inside the wall(when rangers cant) or when the back is not facing us(hello rogues)



so stop the whining please.. its just a game



edit: this was with about 1430atk(no avatar)

and weapons used was fangs of vyzdrah and glowing mithril ulak


Shaidi Spiritglow

60th Grandmaster of Quellious


Magelo Profile (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=319103)


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ushaidi.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Shaidi</A> at: 10/18/02 5:55:04 am

[LaotzuQigong]

"Rubbish. It is a good indicative measure of how those classes stack up with attainable weaponry. So for a VT capable guild we see that the aimed balance for melée is broken. A Warrior using offensive out-damages a Monk. Yet the warrior is choosing to reduce their defense whereas the monk has had that thrust upon him. No choice and inferior at the damage output.



Real world situations are all that really count at the end of the day. What weapons are being used, what buffs are present are irrelevant. Only the outcome and this parse fits in with the data we are seeing."



Wrong.



My point was that even with attainable weapons, often melee classes make incorrect weapon selection for the mobs in question. This alone will skew damage heavily in one direction or the other. Weapons and other gear can often be attainable, yet still not equipped due to personal preference.



Raid groups are often NOT optimal in terms of damage for all classes. That raids often put rogues and monks in the same group, group them with bards and SK's, make sure they have COP etc has a huge impact on relative damage. Similarly, the issue of swapping weapons has a similar impact on damage. How many monks do you know actually swap weapon from encounter to encounter? Hell, there are melee who won't even take a 41 percent haste range item because they're too lazy to swap out.



I guarantee that if I have avatar always up, am always placed in the bard group, always have all attack buffs, and always have the back of the mob, I will outdamage any class including a rogue if they don't have a bard, don't have attack buffs, and don't have avatar up. Does this make a monks damage higher than that of a rogue? Obviously not.



The whole idea of class balance is how classes perform under a broad range of similar circumstances.



I would argue that warriors often sacrifice their damage due to a number of factors, this includes...



1) Difference in positioning. Warriors are often assigned towards the front of mobs when positioning is an issue.



2) Weapon selection. Warriors often equip 2 fast 1hders with high aggro instead of max damage weapons, even when they're not expected to generate max hate as they want to be prepared for the contingency of the MT chain wiping.



3) Gear selection. Just as warriors choose max HP items over max AC items due to the softcap, they also choose high HP items over +attack items due to the emphasis on HPs in current warrior setups.



4) Less attack based buffs. Warriors are often given maximum defensive buffs (DI for example), and must sacrifice attack buffs due to their assumption they will be tanking, even when they're far down the MT list.



Your idea of "realism" means nothing in terms of balancing if the comparisons themselves aren't on equal footing. This is much like a plate class who tries to compare their dps to a monk with Epic when there's not enchanter in the group. 40 percent Epic haste skews results massively. Put a chanter in group and give everyone VoG and suddenly that imbalance is no longer real.



Otherwise, we might as well claim a 60 monk with Fangs/GMU is imbalanced towards your average 59 monk wielding fist/SoS. Are fang/gmu an atypical gear setup? Yes. Do most people have Fang/gmu? Nope. Should it be considered for balance? Obviously not.



Balance isn't about maximum of one class versus minimum of another. It's about comparing potential of each class at the same level. This is the only fair comparison imho.



LaotzuQigong

60 Grandmaster

Legendary

The Tribunal


</p>

Let me ask yet another question...



If Warrior DPS was indeed so close to monk DPS, can you PLEASE explain to me how the issue of monk defense came into existence had they not been gaining a DPS generated aggro based on significantly higher DPS than warriors? The fact that a monk could, without the use of the taunt button, take agro from warriors on about every fight, even with the warrior using taunt and proc weapons, is indicative that any claims of equivalent DPS is pure garbage.



The fact that a multiple page thread called "Warriors, taunt PLEASE" devoted to this issue arose on these very boards is indicative that there's a DPS differnce which is substantial enough that an EXP mob with very few relative hitpoints can, prior to it's death, decide that a non taunting monk is a greater threat to them than a warrior who's taunting, is indicative that this whole argument about DPS is silly at best, and the relative spread, which is completely contrary to all known relative parses to this date (showing a 200/180/100/95 split betwen rogues/monks/warrior/knights) is less than factual.






</p>

Interesting..



But all I can say is DO NOT call for a nerf on another class. Call for us getting an increase in DPS or get some of our defense back, but agian DO NOT call for a nerf to anyone. It is just plain dumb to do that. If we do that, we are just inviting the hatred that we saw when we were nerfed to begin with.


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</p>

[LaotzuQigong]

"Let me ask yet another question...



If Warrior DPS was indeed so close to monk DPS, can you PLEASE explain to me how the issue of monk defense came into existence had they not been gaining a DPS generated aggro based on significantly higher DPS than warriors? The fact that a monk could, without the use of the taunt button, take agro from warriors on about every fight, even with the warrior using taunt and proc weapons, is indicative that any claims of equivalent DPS is pure garbage.



The fact that a multiple page thread called "Warriors, taunt PLEASE" devoted to this issue arose on these very boards is indicative that there's a DPS differnce which is substantial enough that an EXP mob with very few relative hitpoints can, prior to it's death, decide that a non taunting monk is a greater threat to them than a warrior who's taunting, is indicative that this whole argument about DPS is silly at best, and the relative spread, which is completely contrary to all known relative parses to this date (showing a 200/180/100/95 split betwen rogues/monks/warrior/knights) is less than factual."



Okay... since you bring it up, here's a list of reasons why a warrior with close DPS might lose aggro to a monk.



1) Positioning. When a warrior is in front, a good chunk of their swings are blocked/dodged/riposted, not to mention frontal stuns due to damage taken. This reduces warrior DPS by up to 10 percent depending on the mob. So, knock 10 percent off DPS versus the monk.



2) Fast swinging weapons. Every swing will generate aggro (some nominal amount) regardless of hit or miss. Fast swinging weapons will generate more hate over equivalent swinging weapons.



3) Taunt does not add hate, it only sets hate to max hate + 1, IE the equivalent of one more point of damage. If your taunt succeeds and you hit for 20, and the monk hits for 30, the monk takes aggro. Yet another reason fast swinging weapons generate more hate due to more consistent damage versus 2hders where random misses have large impacts on short term DPS.



4) Haste. If the warrior doesn't have haste, the monk with epic is still 40 percent spell hasted + item haste. A monk with epic will always have 40 percent more haste than a warrior without spell haste when item haste is equal, and will always have the same or better haste than a warrior without spell haste.



5) Monks already generate more damage than warriors even when haste is not a factor and weapons are equivalent due to monk innate attack bonus and seperate damage tables.



6) Taunt only has about a 5 to 10 percent chance of success, regardless of the mob. So it's quite easy for a warrior to taunt 10 times and still not successfully taunt.



7) Hate generating weapons are typically lower DPS than pure damage weapons (which monks always use). The end result is that the difference in DPS can sometimes be greater than ate generated (especially if the procs don't go off much).



<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"> Proximity. How close the combatants are to a mob has a multiplying effect on levels of hate, with impact varying from mob to mob. A monk who's up in a mob's butt will in most circumstances have more effective hate than a warrior at max melee range all other things being equal. Some mobs are 100% skeletal or proximity aggro based. IE, closest person gets the most hate regardless of DPS generated. If the warrior doesn't get close enough, and the monk is too close, sometimes no amount of DPS or Hate will pull aggro off.



Verant has stated from day 1 that taunt was not meant to be highly reliable or always successful. Their argument was that it should not be easy to keep a mob locked on a warrior, regardless of the mob. Has this gone too far? Possibly. However, don't blame monks for Verant's hate mechanics.



Hope that helps.



LaotzuQigong

60 Grandmaster

Legendary

The Tribunal


</p>

A pretty simple answer for the damage difference would be he either died or joined the fight late.


Beld Garath

Galdorr Garath

Dol Amroth

Rodcet Nife

<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=119631>Galdorr</a>

</p>

I think the whole taunt issue came about because of a relatively recent patch in which they screwed up taunting effectiveness. Whether that was an accident on Verant's part or a deliberate act, I don't know. I do recall being in UP the next day and finding to my disgust that I got aggro quite often where I had not done so before.



My damage did not suddenly go up, making me better at getting aggro. The warrior's and SK tanks in my groups just got worse at keeping aggro.




Argfeld

Level 58 Monk

Order of the Scattered Winds

Bertoxxulous



</p>

[Pokiri]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>

Let me ask yet another question...



If Warrior DPS was indeed so close to monk DPS, can you PLEASE explain to me how the issue of monk defense came into existence had they not been gaining a DPS generated aggro based on significantly higher DPS than warriors? The fact that a monk could, without the use of the taunt button, take agro from warriors on about every fight, even with the warrior using taunt and proc weapons, is indicative that any claims of equivalent DPS is pure garbage.

<hr></blockquote>



Er... monks can get aggro when they pull. That's the issue with defense. Nobody is denying that monks can lose aggro when they want to while just doing damage, a la rogues.



Also, it depends on the level of play you're talking about - I can guarantee you that the DPS difference between warriors and monks is different pre-NToV and post-Ssra. The bad part is that the defense change was across the board, and seems to have hit the <1200ac monk hardest.



<blockquote>Quote:<hr>

The fact that a multiple page thread called "Warriors, taunt PLEASE" devoted to this issue arose on these very boards is indicative that there's a DPS differnce which is substantial enough that an EXP mob with very few relative hitpoints can, prior to it's death, decide that a non taunting monk is a greater threat to them than a warrior who's taunting, is indicative that this whole argument about DPS is silly at best, and the relative spread, which is completely contrary to all known relative parses to this date (showing a 200/180/100/95 split betwen rogues/monks/warrior/knights) is less than factual.

<hr></blockquote>



Again, big difference between a VT monk and a level 40 monk/warrior. If I remember correctly, the monk that started that thread was around that level (though I could be wrong).



At level 59, I used a tstaff and couldn't get aggro off a taunting 59 warrior using ornate sword of the general/bonehandled scimitar (my spouse), ever. I also couldn't tank half as well as my spouse - 1100ac/2500hp vs. 1200ac/3500hp is a big difference. Over weeks of parsing in The Grey, I was doing about 50dps to my spouse's 40dps.



I can't get comparable results now, because I've hit 60 and am using Khashek's/FoL and my spouse is still 59 but has epic. It might be 1.8:1, but I'd doubt it.



If you tell me that it's 1.8:1 when the monk has caen's and the warrior has BoC/BF or some such, that's a whole different story. But then we're not talking about the average monk, and we're not talking about the majority of cases affected by the defense change.


</p>

Since it’s VI’s contention we shouldn’t be tanking, then there is another way to compensate for the loss of defensiveness and thus likelihood we’ll splat trying to pull. Allow us the higher AC from the rear, and lower us to the other table from the front.



There’s been the ability to determine whether or not we’re behind a mob, and thus get a higher chance to do more damage since the beginning. Hitting a mob from behind had for the most part done more damage than hitting it in the front. There’s no reason they can’t make us a table for when a mob hits US from behind instead of doing more damage, they do less.



As for the DPS, I’ve thought we have been doing too little on that end for some time. The nice warrior weapons that put them at close to our damage are really not that hard to find. As opposed to monk weapons that aren’t crap being rare or hideously rare. I’ve used three 2h blunts in my monk career that I used for the purpose of actually doing damage. Efreeti ice staff, T staff and Primal Velium brawl stick. Raise your hand if you think any of these is either easy to find or can be gotten with any ease. There’s one stick from Sebilis that’s pretty good too…but none of these is even remotely a common drop.



I play on Test, I can’t really go out and buy these either. I either earn them or have somebody nice enough to get one for me…otherwise I do without. Nature of the beast, I pay for low server volume by lower chance to get nice droppable stuff.



I’ve got fists of lightning and primal fistwraps I use most of the time now, and I can indeed take agro away from a host of warriors if I’m not paying attention. This tells me Warrior taunt sucks, not necessarily that we do massive damage. Unlike rogues and rangers though, I can’t sluff agro without feigning…if that even works. I’ve gotten and kept agro even with the feign macro that turns off attack, feigns and stands me back up. I leave out the autoattack part to make sure I’m not still too high on the list when I stand back up.



More often than not I’m still getting hit when I’m just standing there.



This tells me (since it happens OFTEN) that feign on the higher end mobs is an all or nothing thing, works completely or not at all. So, once again I come back to we have no means of sluffing agro, so our output is actually likely lower than it would be if we weren’t wearing the mob like a hat.



If they’re going to take away our ability to take a hit at lower levels more than the high end, (way to go VI, screw the little guy again), then to compensate more damage is called for. And a means to dump agro that actually WORKS.



I find it interesting in the post where the rogues couldn’t get behind the mob to BS that they were doing nearly the same if not more (in some cases) than the monks…even from the front.




Smile

Monk 60th belt

[i]"Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure"

I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.

<a href=http://www.povn.com/vrcomm/primalbrood/home.htm>Primal Brood</a></p>[i]

Monk aggro is as simple as the swinging of the weapons. I use a 2hb on raids to get less aggro than my 1hb generates. I am a poor 60 level monk and use a IFS and SoS. My IFS outdamages the SoS, but I get more aggro on the Fist/SoS combo.


</p>

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Nirre
60 warrior
Xev</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>

Balance isn't about maximum of one class versus minimum of another. It's about comparing potential of each class at the same level. This is the only fair comparison imho.

<hr></blockquote>



Yes your opinion. And others opinion is that an average of the real world damage applied by classes is just as important.


</p>

unless you have perfect positioning, lag and the ability to 'follow' a mob comes into play for dps.



either the original poster just has poor monks and exceptional warriors in his guild, or there is a big difference in the warrior/monks ability to stay with a mob.



in my own guild, the monks can come close to the rogues on any mob without insane AC, but are ALWAYS well ahead of the warriors...well except when the positioning is bad, cause we got this one warrior who can stick to the mob like glue and never gets out of range...



yes there is still an element of skill in the game. its not just what your verant granted abilities and gear give you...you still have to pay attention to maximize your abilities



dont discount your attack values either. just because you have superior weapons to primal doesnt mean you should ever go without the avatar buff...



if a warrior is out damaging you (or even coming as close as those logs show), its probably your fault heh



southern



southern


</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> There's about 20k damage difference between the high DPS warrior and the monks he's up there with.



How'd the warrior generate such high DPS but such low damage?<hr></blockquote>



The parse is still valid, it parses from the start of that warriors fight to when he stopped doing damage (prolly, he got agro and got killed because of his high DPS, and unable to lower agro).



Fact remains he got close to monk damage. That's unacceptable.



Swilv.




</p>

[Fopoodzo]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Fact remains he got close to monk damage. That's unacceptable. <hr></blockquote>





Yep in light of the defence nerf (so defence is closer to rogues) monks should be doing damage closer to rogues and significantly more than warriors.



Warriors don't need their damage to be nerfed, but monks need a damage upgrade post defensive nerf.






</p>

[baleful tigercrane]

Twister is right though too many damn monks, oh and yaa me on being the monk on top <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">



norm buffs

anchient aego

bmb

focus

cop

vog

avatar

sta

and SK atk grp atk buff

had 1516 atk




</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ubalefultigercrane.showPublicProfile?language=EN>baleful tigercrane</A> at: 10/18/02 9:39:16 am

"Rubbish. It is a good indicative measure of how those classes stackup with attainable weaponry. So for a VT capable guild we see that the aimed balance for melée is broken. A Warrior using offensive out-damages a Monk. Yet the warrior is choosing to reduce their defense whereas the monk has had that thrust upon him. No choice and inferior at the damage output.



Real world situations are all that really count at the end of the day. What weapons are being used, what buffs are present are irrelevant. Only the outcome and this parse fits in with the data we are seeing." -- The Unmistakable Voice of Reason



Do you really mean to say that monks should outdamage warriors in all situations, even when missing multiple buffs which are known to add in excess of 30% to normal raid buffed DPS? I really can't even begin to understand how that adds any value to a realistic DPS discussion. If all you are doing is comparing people with vastly different attack and haste buffs, or choosing not to declare the buffs present, it should be stated that the post has no real value. Let me say that again. A parse without a very detailed fight description has zero statistical value.



A parse with no statistical value is a troll. All it is meant to do is agitate the classes involved. The sad fact is anyone can turn log on and make a link to it. Few people have the time to make notes of the groups as the fight starts, send tells to all melee involved asking them what weapons they used for the fight, what buffs they had up for the fight, positioning, whether the buff slotts were full and stopping them from getting maximum effect of being grouped with a bard, and so on.



The fact that you don't understand the difference between a post with statistical value and one without shows that you dont understand the importance nor the impact on DPS of being maximized for the encounter at hand.



Dilbis Xll

60th Human Bard

Tarew Marr


</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> A parse without a very detailed fight description has zero statistical value.<hr></blockquote>

Please, this is a high level raid guild. The buffs are standard fair. One or two people may be missing ceratin buffs but they all certainly were not.



So yes, abnormalities can be ignored. However, trends should not be ignored. It is highly probalby that the warrior that outdamaged the monks had savagery and/or was using offensive.



With the number of monks and warriors we have in these parses you can establish a trend even without knowing what they are wielding or what they have as buffs.


</p>

Your parse has a lot of value, Broda. Thanks for the info...


Sensei Deirdre Sadiqa (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=192025)

Grandmistress of Tranquility

Warlords of Wrath
Crouching Tigress Training Dragons
</p>

Yes, lets ue more numbers to get either a upgrade or nerf warriors.



They wanna piss us off, I say we sink to their level.


</p>

[Varaho1]

Why the bother for additional data?



With data you could establish that a warrior was outdamaging a monk when the monk had bardic haste, savagery , and was behind the mob when the warrior was in from with 100% haste and only pushing attack on.



Or you could establish that a warrior can only outdamage a monk if if the warrior has full bardic haste, savagery, was standing behind the mob and using aggressive when the monk had only 100% haste, no savagery, and was standing in front of the mob.



Look at it this way, I could make a log where a wizard was doing more melee damage than a rogue post it and say that they are suffering greatly but not include such things as the rogue was afk for 99.99% of the fight facing away from the mob.



Detailed data is important.


</p>

I don't care if a single warrior outdamaged some monks. I don't care if a single monk was outdamaged by a bard.



I do care if the majority of the classes stand as far as damage goes on various targets. From many of the parses you can see distinctive ranges that classes fall into. This range is what is interesting.



From what I can see warriors are clamoring for an unwarranted increase in damage. However, I would still like to see more parses. And of course the more information you can provide the better, but trends that are visible in parses shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.


</p>

[Wubao]

"The parse is still valid, it parses from the start of that warriors fight to when he stopped doing damage (prolly, he got agro and got killed because of his high DPS, and unable to lower agro)."



I don't think it is.



If the warrior died, fine. But he hasn't said anything about that particular warrior. Did he die?



If he joined the fight late, I still don't buy it. The number seems inflated. And joining the fight late may be why.



"Fact remains he got close to monk damage. That's unacceptable."



Fact remains he was 20k short of the other people at that DPS level. No one's said why. HIS TOTAL DAMAGE, though, was in line with every other warrior there. Seems to me, that the SIMPLE explanation of him joining the fight late or dying is ONE WAY of explaining it.



MISSING A DECIMAL POINT or having the parser program screw up is also another.



And no one's said what weapons he had or why his damage is 20k short.



Statistical anamoly if you ask me. Every other parse I've seen of fights like this on these boards have warriors down where the other warriors on this person's parse were. This one lone warrior which we know nothing about is the only one I've ever seen with monk-like damage. And his damage doesn't add up to the rest of the high DPS people at the fight.



You'll excuse me if I don't just accept the stats on their face value.



-Wu


</p>

Warrior 45,053 49.13

Monk 63,923 46.12

Monk 56,407 44.80





The monks were definately in the fight a LOT longer than the warrior above them. He had 0.1 higher dps than the monk below him while doing 18kish less damage. Probably popped a disc or something and got himself killed. Regardless, this is in no way accurate enough to say, "warriors can do more damage than monks." Sure, in situations they can, but I can also Ashendhand a Moss Snake and parse 20,000dps for that fight, does that mean I outdamage rogues?



Have that warrior and the monk below him beat on something a bit more easy to measure to like the Mist Panther in WL for a more accurate calculation. That mob is always 60 and I've never noticed any discrepencies in it's AC from fight to fight. Have both of them whack on it for 3-4 fights with no discs and for the same amount of real time, then let us know how it turns out.



EDIT: I'm all for trying to get some more offensive skills to make up for the defensive changes, just highly doubt that will happen.


Leksikon (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=74672)</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/uleksikon.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Leksikon</A> at: 10/18/02 12:06:04 pm

Sorry about the delay in getting back to this thread, I left work yesterday and haven't been able to look again until now.



<blockquote>Quote:<hr> From your list you actually show two Monks who generated more total damage as having a lower DPS than the Warrior right above them on the list. How exactly does that work? Did the Warrior join the battle late?



Edit: 49 DPS seems suspiciously high. I would wonder if it wasn't some kind of abnormality or problem in the parsing program unless its showing up regularly. <hr></blockquote>



Checked the logs on that warrior she died in the first 30 seconds and was rezzed in and buffed 8 minutes later, when she started fighting.



<blockquote>Quote:<hr> No, what he is saying is that parsed data without a detailed description of the groups, buffs, and weapons of the people involved has a value of zero. The only value data like this has is to troll. <hr></blockquote>



Fair enough. Though I am no troll.



<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Who was in the bard groups? With the big step up in attack and having the superior bard haste over enchanter haste this makes a difference of about 15% in dps.<hr></blockquote>



Many guilds form groups around clerics, we however, form groups around bards. We know the value of having them in melee groups and so plan accordingly. Pull group always has a bard for DA on pulls.



I know I had a bard, if that warrior did not, then their DPS would have been 15% higher.



<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Who was has primal, and who was consistently swapping it in and out during the fight? Who was able to get a shaman to keep avatar on him if they did not have primal? <hr></blockquote>



90% of our melee do not have primal. So no, primal was not up at all time. The shaman with the spell primal avatar was not present at this raid.



Sleeper was released early on our server and with post sleeper primal drop rates, guild focus shifted. Why spend hours in sleepers with the chance of getting primal when we have guaranteed drops from other ubers. With the recent change to Sleepers we had planned on going back to get them all equipped, but that has been put on hold again with the change of prismatic weapons to vengeance II on test.



<blockquote>Quote:<hr> What weapons were involved? While high speed one-handers might be nice against low AC mobs, a nasty two-hander will excede the damage output against high AC mobs. <hr></blockquote>



All warriors and monks are dual wielding. I stated this earlier. I was not in game last night due to real life issues so was unable to get all the specifics on weapons, as stated before, I will post this when possible.



<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Who was battle rezzed? Was the portion of the fight that they had rez effects included in the parse? <hr></blockquote>



The only person battle rezzed was the warrior with the high DPS.





<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Until the at least the above questions are answered regarding any parse, I just assume it is a self serving troll. This is even more true when it is an isolated parse followed by a post high on opinion content and low on fight description. <hr></blockquote>



I'll do my best to answer any questions you have. Just realize my life does not revolve around these boards, and I'm not going to be on here 24/7. Expect answers once daily.






Dainin (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=696)


Human Grandmaster

Servant of Quellious

Shadowed Soul (http://www.shadowedsoul.com)



http://www.shadowedsoul.com/screenshots/Members/Dainin/pull.JPG
</a> </p>

dont worry, just answer when you can, dont let a few retards get to you. You doing a fine job.


</p>

[Fopoodzo]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I'm all for trying to get some more offensive skills to make up for the defensive changes, just highly doubt that will happen. <hr></blockquote>





I don't see why, they were happy enough to nerf monks defence in the name of 'balance', I don't see why they wouldn't give monks a bit more offence to rebalance monks between rogues and warriors.





If they cannot see how changing defence without increasing offence doubly nerfs monks in relation to the warrior/monk/rogue balance (even without parses like these) then I really have no respect for VI at all.


</p>

Anyone doing parses ever thought about the fact that monks tend to hit mobs from behind, if at all possible, while warriors are more likely to be at the front?



Comparing rogues and monks is not too hard, as they both fight usually at the back of the mob. Given the parses above, rogues easily do 50% more damage than a monk, which in light of the defense changes, putting monks at almost the same level as rogues, is completely absurd.



Comparing warriors to any of the pure melees is harder with a parse like this. The MT was likely at the front of the mob, defensive, and using taunt weapons.. yet still manages to do damage that's only 25% lower than the monks.



It comes as no surprise then that a warrior fighting from behind, using damage weapons, and perhaps an offensive disc can beat a monk in terms of damage.



Verant's explanation of the Monk defensive nerf was: Monks tank better in 0.01% of the cases than warriors, unacceptable, so we nerf.



Verant's explanation of the (now cancelled) Paladin nerf: Paladin's could situationally ALMOST do as much damage as Warriors, unacceptable, so we nerf.



So, to stick with Verant's flawed reasoning you'd get:



Warriors do more damage than Monks in 0.01% of the cases, that's unacceptable, so ... (fill in optimistic/pessimistc solution here).


http://www.xs4all.nl/~hjohn/swilvsign.jpg</p>

Hey, if there's a 1% of the monks that can tank a high lvl mob and they end up nerfing the whole class...

Why don't they nerf the all warrior's offense? How many wariors were there in the raid? 7? 8? 9? 10? If there were 10 warriors and 1 is outdamaging monks, statistically it means that 10% of all warriors is outdamaging monks... they should have their attack/damage nerfed!

(I know the statistic part of my analysis is wrong :P just want the warriors to feel what we feel now)


</p>

[Fopoodzo]

Yeah warriors don't need their damaged nerfed (although after some of the gloating here, I can see why some people feel like they do <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p"> ), but monks definately do need their damage output proportionally increase post-nerf.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showLocalUserPublicProfile?lo gin=fopoodzo>Fopoodzo</A> at: 10/21/02 11:15:49 am

I don't know why so many people keep going on about positioning behind the mob. Yes on any given raid throughout most of the raid there will be exactly 1 warrior who is standing in front of a mob. ALL the rest of the warriors will be behind it just like the monks and the rogues. Thats why people posting parsed fights include which warrior was the MT. The only 2 people that will be significantly affected by positioning on most raids are the MT and the puller.


<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=85547>Khumak</a>

60 Warrior

Mith Marr

(Imperial Guardians)</p>

"Both of our monks do have epics but that doesn't stack with chanter haste. "



How do you get to 60 and not know the monk epic is song haste and DOES stack with chanter haste and item haste AND a few other songs with haste?



To stay on topic.... The gap between monk and Rogue is FAR too great. The gap grows at higher levels as well since Back stab is a muliplier of the base hit. Why have monks gotten no BIG AAXP ability. Granted when you combine all of our offensive aa we obtain good power, but where is our Death Blow ability? maybe it would be limited to huminiod beings (2 legs), to justify it in roleplay terms it would be a knowen anatomy including pressurepoints for a well place martial arts blow. Don't even get me started on /disc. I have used the level 60 monk disc on 2 mobs, one red con and one green con. I hit the red con for 230 and the green con for 350. This disc has a 72min refresh timer, and it does less damage then a normal crit with an IFS. There are SO many reasons they need to take a damn good look at monks and improve us OFFENSIVLY(sp?).





Quichan Paine

60 Grandmaster

Emarr

Keeper of the Niasa en'Valrim


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/uquichanpaine.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Quichan Paine</A> at: 10/21/02 12:50:21 pm

Its not strange that the warrior getting rezzed and joining late could put out a higher DPS then normal. Joining in the battle when the MT has done 10k or more damage means you can do whatver you like to deal as much damage as possible without pulling aggro off the MT.


</p>

Quaichan>How do you get to 60 and not know the monk epic is song haste and DOES stack with chanter haste and item haste AND a few other songs with haste?



How did you get to 60 and still don't know that spell and song haste don't stack - with a bard song as the only (i.e. your friendly bard actually has to sing it, no clicky clicky items) exception. The fact that you get both icons doesn't mean the haste stack.


<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=3528">
Walkabout, Grandmaster Gecko</a>

The Companions (http://www.eqcompanions.com)

The Tribunal (http://www.thetribunal.org/)


Am I balanced yet ?</p>

[Wubao]

"How do you get to 60 and not know the monk epic is song haste and DOES stack with chanter haste and item haste AND a few other songs with haste?"



Heh. I'm going to let others here explain to you what part of the epic song exactly DOES stack with chanter haste spells and what part doesn't.



But you know pots ... kettles ... they're both black.



:P

Wu


</p>

So does monk epic haste stack with shaman alacrity?



Eyez



PS. I am not 60


</p>

Quote



-----

So does monk epic haste stack with shaman alacrity?

-----



From what I understand the +ATK does (and whatever else it gives besides haste) but not the haste.


<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=85547>Khumak</a>

60 Warrior

Mith Marr

(Imperial Guardians)</p>

Hate to disagree ... but I had someone argue with me about Epic stacking or not with Spell Haste about a month ago. I said it did, he said it didnt. So I parsed my own data and calculated, based on many fights against the same exact critter .. etc etc.



From that, I now agree with him. Monk Epic haste stacks with Equipment haste, of course, but enchanter haste had no effect when it was under the 40% my epic did. I was doing the same exact damage.



Only thing I didnt bother testing (lazy I guess) is how it stacks with bard songs. I can say for certain though that Epic does not stack with WF, but everybody knew that. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">


- Syrell -

Do, or do not. There is no try.
</p>

Whichever is greater of the two hastes (epic haste or spell haste) is the haste that is used. Atk still gets applied from the epic though.


</p>

RBB + epic haste brings us very close to the max haste on many wepons.



Did you pay attention to your dmg/dly?



Its well known monk epic + RBB will bring fists to 9/10, add chanter haste and it goes to the max which is 9/9. I challenge anyone to try and see the difference between 9/9 and 9/10 without doing a lot of work. Its is said only monk hands can drop below 10 delay.



When I get ench haste I use my 2hb, or slower higher dmg 1hb. I have noticed a definite difference with stacking ench haste + bard songs on my 1hb, thats wiuthout parsing. I was hitting awfully fast with my 40dly 2hb.


</p>

[Fopoodzo]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> To stay on topic.... The gap between monk and Rogue is FAR too great. The gap grows at higher levels as well since Back stab is a muliplier of the base hit. Why have monks gotten no BIG AAXP ability. <hr></blockquote>





Especially in light of the tanking nerf.


</p>

Honestly, I find the monk's dps against the mob extremely low compared to what I am used to. Our monks average 60-ish dps minimum, and I've gotten up near 90 dps with greater akheva bane and glowing mithril ulak, no savagery, few venegeance items.


</p>