10-23-2002, 08:51 PM
Most of this informational is a theory, I have not heard things from VI to back it up, but it is my take on the situation.
I think Verant had a few Goals with the Recent changes (not Just to Monks, but overall)
Reduce ability to Solo better then groups In PoP
To Solo effectivly you need essentially 2 things.
To beable to Mitagate damage (Whether through mitigating Healing, or avoiding)
To beable to deal damage.
Two Class's were the target of This.
Monks
With High DPS, average Mitigation, High Avoidance and being able to heal self through Fungi/Mend Monks were one of the best soloers.
Going into a little bit more Detail...
Average Mitigation: Prepatch, as far as I know, with Equal AC, Melee Mitigation was pretty much all the same. + Stonestance usable for a short time for fight.
High Mitigation: The Block Skill.
Block to my understanding is *aproximatly* goes off 6% more then parry, the non monk melee equivalent. Some may say that 6% is not much. However if you look slightly more at the numbers (For the purposes of simplication I'm not going to use a particular parse or area, but rather General Numbers, the specefic numbers that go into this will most likely be inaccurate for *every* encounter, but I will use it a basis..
Between Riposte/Dodge/Block/Miss's Monk A Avoids 56% of all attacks from Mob B
Between Riposte/Dodge/Parry/Miss's NonMonkMelee avoids 50% of all attacks from Mob B.
At first glance the Monk seems to only take 6% more damage, but upon closer inspect the number is more around 12%.. Why? Of that 50% damage that is taken, the Monk avoids 6% more of that, Making it 12% of the total damage.
Healing: Mend: Self Explanatory
Fungi: While every melee class can use Fungis, Monks use it more effectivily, Due to the static Regen on it, but monks overall taking less damage due to the superior avoidance skills
While not every Monk had a fungi, and gear to get post 1200. VI I beleive tried to cut the effects of Mudflation from PoP, by building from the Top Down (More on this later)
The changes in Monk defense made it so PrePop the Average Monk couldnt solo as well, but had little effect on the High end one. (More on this Later)
Paladins
Paladins Have Average Mitigation, Average Avoidance and Medium-High DPS with SU, + Good healing abiltities..
Mitigation/Avoidance: Basically the same as other non monk melee given similar AC.
Slay Undead: Slay undead causes an average of a 20% increase in DPS VS undead, with no drawbacks (aside from AA points) This in itself was not a problem. The main problem was that is *very* random, sometimes with a few lucky slays The paladin could reach Rog/Mnk DPS or sometimes beyond, and sometimes it will just not go off, leaving with a little more then average, and as stated above, a 20% average increase.
However: Come PoP with the AA skill "Fury of the Ages" it would be possible to land crits, and therefore Slays more often, making the skill become much more effective and relaible. This was building the game from the "Top Down" (more on this later)
Realizing the ability to have considerably high DPS class along with good tanking abilities VI in efforts to prevent Paladin Ownage of Planes decided to lower the Defensive abilities of Paladins while the skill was in use...
Chaos Followed in the Paladin Community, after a few days of Complaining VI issued this statement
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Over the last day, we've received a great deal of feedback and concern over the proposed Slay Undead change. We've put a lot of thought into the issue, and decided to hold off making any changes to Slay Undead for the foreseeable future.
Slay Undead will continue to work in exactly the same way, and deal the same damage it does on live servers currently, and remain at that balance through level 65. Damage caused by Slay Undead won't increase post-60, though Paladin melee damage in general will continue to rise as you level up. There will be no defense penalty imposed while using this skill.
We'd like to apologize for any undue frustration this has caused you, and we appreciate the feedback that was sent in. This change was well-intentioned, but we realized we were focusing too much on the potential of the top 5% of Paladins, and while the solution was reasonable for that sub-group, it wasn't appropriate to apply across the board.
Thanks for your patience,
Rich Waters
Lead Designer, EverQuest <hr></blockquote>
At first glance, it appears that the nerf was completly called off, but at closer inspection "Damage caused by Slay Undead won't increase post-60," IE in PoP, with considerable amount of AA, Slays will not become more frequent, and therefore more powerful and reliable. So Instead of Reducing the tanking ability to reduce soloing, the put a cap on the damage, to block the damage from becoming Reliable high damage. (This imo was shooting ourselfs (i'm a paladin :P) in the foots.. Offense stacks, defense doesnt)
Top Down
I have kept refering to this, what exactly does this mean? It means that in designing PoP Verant May have first Balanced the Endgame, instead of balancing it from the start. Why?
As time goes on, and as more exspantions get released, what is once high end content that only the "ubers" get slowly becomes mainstream and accessible to all, what problems once effected only a small amount of People, effects a majority of the game.
If changes had not happened, a few months down the road it is very possible that with PoP level and AA's for there to be considerable imbalances (for the high end) Espcially coupled with the CH max change, making the advantage of post 7500 warrior HP less then it would have been, and having other class's being able to reach near that much easier (more on reason's for CH nerf later) coupled with the mudflation of SoL Gear/Levels making the problems that were only in the upper %'s, hit mainstream.
The Pro's of this is that in the longterm the game is much better and stable, and ultimatly more fun, also less beefing up/nerfing of Certain problems/mobs etc once they hit mainstream and after the Ubers Farming them, making an artificial roadblock in Game Progression for the people who didnt get there firrst. So Hopefully given a few months, SoL will become much like it was for Monks, while keeping PoP Balanced.
The Con's are that they did it before PoP was released, and as benchmark they used the High End Class' )This of course hit the Lower end/average monks hard, but in a few months, with the additional levels and mudflation in Gear, the AA abilities and gear that the High End Monk has, will be considerably easier to get, and a majority of the population will have access too.
Prevent making previous Content Trivial
Between AA's and new Levels previous content could easily be made trivial (/wave Naggy 52 Max limit) To prevent this:
CH Nerf By capping this at 7500, (Aprox Average for Endgame Warrior Circa SoL) it prevents being able to have single super tanks (10kish+) from being able to trivialize encounters.
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=mad ronedorf>MadroneDorf</A> at: 10/23/02 5:31:01 pm
I think Verant had a few Goals with the Recent changes (not Just to Monks, but overall)
Reduce ability to Solo better then groups In PoP
To Solo effectivly you need essentially 2 things.
To beable to Mitagate damage (Whether through mitigating Healing, or avoiding)
To beable to deal damage.
Two Class's were the target of This.
Monks
With High DPS, average Mitigation, High Avoidance and being able to heal self through Fungi/Mend Monks were one of the best soloers.
Going into a little bit more Detail...
Average Mitigation: Prepatch, as far as I know, with Equal AC, Melee Mitigation was pretty much all the same. + Stonestance usable for a short time for fight.
High Mitigation: The Block Skill.
Block to my understanding is *aproximatly* goes off 6% more then parry, the non monk melee equivalent. Some may say that 6% is not much. However if you look slightly more at the numbers (For the purposes of simplication I'm not going to use a particular parse or area, but rather General Numbers, the specefic numbers that go into this will most likely be inaccurate for *every* encounter, but I will use it a basis..
Between Riposte/Dodge/Block/Miss's Monk A Avoids 56% of all attacks from Mob B
Between Riposte/Dodge/Parry/Miss's NonMonkMelee avoids 50% of all attacks from Mob B.
At first glance the Monk seems to only take 6% more damage, but upon closer inspect the number is more around 12%.. Why? Of that 50% damage that is taken, the Monk avoids 6% more of that, Making it 12% of the total damage.
Healing: Mend: Self Explanatory
Fungi: While every melee class can use Fungis, Monks use it more effectivily, Due to the static Regen on it, but monks overall taking less damage due to the superior avoidance skills
While not every Monk had a fungi, and gear to get post 1200. VI I beleive tried to cut the effects of Mudflation from PoP, by building from the Top Down (More on this later)
The changes in Monk defense made it so PrePop the Average Monk couldnt solo as well, but had little effect on the High end one. (More on this Later)
Paladins
Paladins Have Average Mitigation, Average Avoidance and Medium-High DPS with SU, + Good healing abiltities..
Mitigation/Avoidance: Basically the same as other non monk melee given similar AC.
Slay Undead: Slay undead causes an average of a 20% increase in DPS VS undead, with no drawbacks (aside from AA points) This in itself was not a problem. The main problem was that is *very* random, sometimes with a few lucky slays The paladin could reach Rog/Mnk DPS or sometimes beyond, and sometimes it will just not go off, leaving with a little more then average, and as stated above, a 20% average increase.
However: Come PoP with the AA skill "Fury of the Ages" it would be possible to land crits, and therefore Slays more often, making the skill become much more effective and relaible. This was building the game from the "Top Down" (more on this later)
Realizing the ability to have considerably high DPS class along with good tanking abilities VI in efforts to prevent Paladin Ownage of Planes decided to lower the Defensive abilities of Paladins while the skill was in use...
Chaos Followed in the Paladin Community, after a few days of Complaining VI issued this statement
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Over the last day, we've received a great deal of feedback and concern over the proposed Slay Undead change. We've put a lot of thought into the issue, and decided to hold off making any changes to Slay Undead for the foreseeable future.
Slay Undead will continue to work in exactly the same way, and deal the same damage it does on live servers currently, and remain at that balance through level 65. Damage caused by Slay Undead won't increase post-60, though Paladin melee damage in general will continue to rise as you level up. There will be no defense penalty imposed while using this skill.
We'd like to apologize for any undue frustration this has caused you, and we appreciate the feedback that was sent in. This change was well-intentioned, but we realized we were focusing too much on the potential of the top 5% of Paladins, and while the solution was reasonable for that sub-group, it wasn't appropriate to apply across the board.
Thanks for your patience,
Rich Waters
Lead Designer, EverQuest <hr></blockquote>
At first glance, it appears that the nerf was completly called off, but at closer inspection "Damage caused by Slay Undead won't increase post-60," IE in PoP, with considerable amount of AA, Slays will not become more frequent, and therefore more powerful and reliable. So Instead of Reducing the tanking ability to reduce soloing, the put a cap on the damage, to block the damage from becoming Reliable high damage. (This imo was shooting ourselfs (i'm a paladin :P) in the foots.. Offense stacks, defense doesnt)
Top Down
I have kept refering to this, what exactly does this mean? It means that in designing PoP Verant May have first Balanced the Endgame, instead of balancing it from the start. Why?
As time goes on, and as more exspantions get released, what is once high end content that only the "ubers" get slowly becomes mainstream and accessible to all, what problems once effected only a small amount of People, effects a majority of the game.
If changes had not happened, a few months down the road it is very possible that with PoP level and AA's for there to be considerable imbalances (for the high end) Espcially coupled with the CH max change, making the advantage of post 7500 warrior HP less then it would have been, and having other class's being able to reach near that much easier (more on reason's for CH nerf later) coupled with the mudflation of SoL Gear/Levels making the problems that were only in the upper %'s, hit mainstream.
The Pro's of this is that in the longterm the game is much better and stable, and ultimatly more fun, also less beefing up/nerfing of Certain problems/mobs etc once they hit mainstream and after the Ubers Farming them, making an artificial roadblock in Game Progression for the people who didnt get there firrst. So Hopefully given a few months, SoL will become much like it was for Monks, while keeping PoP Balanced.
The Con's are that they did it before PoP was released, and as benchmark they used the High End Class' )This of course hit the Lower end/average monks hard, but in a few months, with the additional levels and mudflation in Gear, the AA abilities and gear that the High End Monk has, will be considerably easier to get, and a majority of the population will have access too.
Prevent making previous Content Trivial
Between AA's and new Levels previous content could easily be made trivial (/wave Naggy 52 Max limit) To prevent this:
CH Nerf By capping this at 7500, (Aprox Average for Endgame Warrior Circa SoL) it prevents being able to have single super tanks (10kish+) from being able to trivialize encounters.
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showUserPublicProfile?gid=mad ronedorf>MadroneDorf</A> at: 10/23/02 5:31:01 pm