View Full Version : Well I thought the nerf wasnt a big thing untill last night.
After the big nerfage my friends and I hunted in FG as our chanter was AWOL. Nothing seemed different at all, I was quite relieved. Well last night we had a chanter so we headed down to one of our favorite areas, Chardok Herb camp. Pulling those mobs hurt, I was getting hit for 165 damage 5 out of 6 times. They did not miss very often at all, which was the worse thing. They hit me almost constantly for max damage and hardly ever missed! Our camp was not far at all from where I was pulling mobs. But I would pull and let the mob(s) come to me to make sure I didn’t get an add that couldn't see. I would take such a beating with 2 mobs it was very disturbing. I would be at 80% hps or less by the time I was back to the group. This is probably like 15 eq yards, ver short distance. I got 3 one time when I had one pop and that really took me down fast. I was at 2 bubs of health and had to mend. The cleric healed me and of course they were all over her beating her till they were mezed. That really is a bunch of crap on VI's part, they really hit us hard. Really sickens me that they recant the nerf to palies but still screw us over and totally leave the high end monk as is.
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The Foreman/Trustee/Herb area has been where my close group of friends and I have been churning out AA for months.
I do beleive that you have lost your mind.
I was wondering the same things everyone else was... How bad is it going to be? So, we packed up and headed down to the guts of Chardok to see for ourselves.
Those mobs down there don't screw around. They never have. 8 out of 10 are hasted mobs. They have SoW, they have Rune, and with the resist changes, they are simply badass.
The Herbalst area has never been an area that Joe Blow Monk can go down to and just fart around and expect not to take heals. MONTHS before the nerf, when my group was testing the waters down there, we were wiped out numerous times to latent aggro, and more prevalent, tough damned mobs.
Since I started going down there I have upgraded a total of 2 equipment slots. I am not an uber duber monk. I am a decently equipped monk.
When you have a group of mobs, that happens to turn into a 3 pull, that are all hasted by shamans, buffed, and ready to go, and you are running FROM them, having them beat on you, guess what, you are going to take a beating. For kicks, my warrior pal tried to pull, he got the same assbeating that I did, and he relented and let the guy with FD go at it.
I am sick of people dwelling on this change. ADAPT
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LAST HOPE Hussy
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DejaaVous of course im going to do what I have to. Really if you are so sick of ppl talking about I have a great idea. Get out of the forum that is discussing it. That really would solve that problem for you. I would rather they change us back to the way we were. I would expect those mobs to miss more. Not light my entire screen on fire with all max hits. Sorry but I did not take that much damage before the nerf against anything. I hadnt played my monk down there much as a puller maybe twice before. But the fact is I was getting max hits 95% of the time. I usally played my lvl 57 rogue when we were there in the past. But my point was that I was getting max hit and never missed. Like I said I would be hit 5 out of 6 times. But not really 5 out of 6 more like 10 out of 12. Major constant damage with no misses. You seem to think you have all the answers, tell me how this nerf that you are so happy to adapt to helps the game play?
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</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/uxiaolone.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Xiaolone</A>* http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/anim_1.gif at: 10/21/02 5:41:29 am
You seem to think you have all the answers, tell me how this nerf that you are so happy to adapt to helps the game play?
Would you mind retyping that sentence for me?
If you are hoping wishing crooning begging that this nerf be taken back, well I have abit of bad news.... There isn't a chance.
I am not sick of people talking. I am sick of hearing all the doom and gloom. Lots and I do mean LOTS of the posts here are more about quitting, then learning how to live with it.
Perhaps I am just too full of optimism, and my view is the only one like it on this entire community. But for god's sakes man, listen to yourself, and all the others here that haven't stopped crying since we got the nerf.
I don't see people saying, " You know, we did get nerfed, but man, we went down the the herbalist last night, and although it was a bit more hairy, I had a blast!"
It's Doom and Gloom. It's violins and suicide.
Give me a break. The way that we got used to playing was fundamentally changed. For some, a bigger hit than for others. Some haven't noticed a change in their playstyle. I haven't made it a practice to WANT to tank anything. When I was soloing, it was against LDC's back in the day pre-fungi with bandages, and EVERY fight was a close one.
Is there anyone around here that just HAPPENS to be having a good time, and has taken this change in stride besides me?
I am sorry if I come off a bit harsh about this, but really, I am getting sick of people not getting on about getting on.
And I stand firm. You were pulling a spot where mobs don't screw around and DID beat the crap out of you just as bad before. Our gear is not that much different, and after 3 months, there isn't hardly a change down there. We aren't talking about Shrooms in FG, or D1 or D2 in Seb. We are talking about mid fifties mobs that are attack buffed. With previous mitigation or with the present, these things still beat the hell out of you, and that is where you are way wrong.
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LAST HOPE Hussy
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Umm you are really way off base on about everything you said. Did I spread doom and gloom? No, I did not. If you want to be feel like you are the all mighty and have such words of wisdom go preach somewhere else. Of course the mobs are tough down there. I hunted there for months also. But like I said I am now getting hit for max damage almost every hit and avoiding barely at all. So I think you are the one thats way off base, things have changed. That was the reason for my post. Some people may think that the change hasnt effected the monk class that much. I was one of those people. Well now I see that is was wrong and I am merely stating that yes it has. It becomes more apparrent big time on higher level mobs. They hit for max almost every single hit. There is nothing at all doom and gloom about it. There is nothing wrong at all with my stating what I experienced. Also you can say VI wont change this or that or anything else. The truth is you have no fricken idea what they will change or not.
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Azith Evertoon
10-21-2002, 10:29 AM
To toss my .02 into this ring.
DejaVus...Your the insane one here if you think the entire purpose of this forum is other then to discuss the nerf. Dont be nieve, it was a nerf no matter how weak or how strong. Do you expect monks in this forum to be jumping for joy at being reduced in power even a very small amount? I've tried to keep an open mind about the change as well but you walked into this argument swinging. If you dont want to hear people upset about the change i suggest you find another forum to troll.
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Would you kindly show me where in my post I am way off base? Did I say you were spreading doom and gloom? Well yeah I did. You are a pessimist, a lot like those in the how many have quit thread.
My message, to those that want to quit, if that is what they are even doing... Is fine. Give up. Quite an easy thing to do isn't it. And frankly, I can as you say "preach" if I care to. Perahps the best way to handle this mitigation change is with a grain of salt. There have been class altering nerfs in the past, and I doubt that this will be the last that we see. VI doesn't play our game, we play theirs.
Barely avoiding at all?
Avoidance isn't what was nerfed. Its was mitigation that was nerfed. And frankly, if you are upset with it, that is fine, you are allowed to be.
But other than getting hit for max damage and getting your ass handed to you, did you still have a good time?
I am not debating whether or not your ability to tank, or avoid, or take hits ahs changed. I am discussing the fact that you, and many like you are only seeing dark aspects of this situation. I am still managing to have a good time. I sure hope that you find a way to deal with this change in a manner that doesn't cause too much distress.
and frankly, I don't care whether or not VI reverses, changes, alters WHATEVER this nerf. I still manage to do what I do best. The only thing that I lost was the ability to take a punch as good as I did.
They didn't take my fun away.
And Azith, I am not trolling, I am just pretty much dissapointed at a large portion of monks here in their inability to cope. I mean really, how does it look to everyone when one of the largest threads we have in this forum is OMG NERF I QUIT.
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LAST HOPE Hussy
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</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/udejaavous.showPublicProfile?language=EN>DejaaVous</A> at: 10/21/02 6:33:01 am
Fopoodzo
10-21-2002, 10:30 AM
I don't think that VI will remove the monk defence nerf (I don't believe they hit what they wanted to hit with it, but knowing VI that won't matter to them.)
However there is (post-defence nerf) a very real case for a small (~10% - proportional to the defence nerf) damage increase.
To bring monks back into line with warriors and rogues (after the defence nerf knocked us out of balance in a -ve manner with both warriors and rogues).
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I have to side with Deja on this one, i've hardly noticed a difference with my monk. The only big difference is that my lvl 56 monk can no longer run around tanking mobs in Umbral Plains. Big Deal. I mean it was kind of ridiculous that us "melee wizards" could do stuff like that in the first place. I see this as a challenge requiring us all to play our monks more skillfully. Complain all you want but you're just blowing steam.
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I love reading about all the monks for whom this wasn't a big deal. Undoubtedly iksar, undoubtedly w/ fungi/tstaff/cof, undoubtedly on slowed mobs, blah blah blah. Their inevitable response- quit then, or put up and shut up! Yet they always find their way to this forum to brag about how it hasn't affected them at all.
Meanwhile, the non-uber, non-2 boxing monks are getting their asses handed to them and the very people you'd think would stand up for them (i.e., other monks) keep spouting how this nerf is "no big deal".
Tell ya what, why don't you toss me your fungi, your 60 iksar monk w/ epic, your tstaff and your full NToV all/all gear and you can play my monk in his acrylia w/o that gear, as a gimped human no less?
Thank you, drive though.
Sagal
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Your the one that hit the human button Sagal <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> .
Khrent Furyfistt 54th Iksar Monk (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=2751)
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Fopoodzo
10-21-2002, 11:01 AM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I see this as a challenge requiring us all to play our monks more skillfully <hr></blockquote>
I don't see where skill comes into nearly being outdamaged by a warrior and now being totally out tanked by them.
Nor in nearly being outdamaged by certain hybrids, with them now tanking as well as monks AND have spells and class abilities to boot.
Or in a rogue tanking only just under a monk, but still significantly outdamaging monks by a LARGE proportion.
I fail to see where skill makes up for any of that.
Yes you can ' skillfully' reduce your taunting/hate and therefore contibute <u>even less damage</u> and be even more underpowered compared to a rogue or warrior but that's about it (and I wouldn't say that is a Good Thing TM).
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I Think some of these people are accessing this board during there Rec time in prison ....reason I say that seems many are very well practiced in BENDING OVER and taking it like a man . Verant sucks on this move they made...and there retracting the pally nerf is a slap in the face.
Did I want pallys nerfed ? NO but the fact they changed there mind because they were out to fix 5% of them ..and were worried they might over do it ....THAT is a joke after this ordeal
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Sorulrna, why have you no haste item in your profile? I'm assuming that it has to be an error, because if at 55th level you have no haste item most of us would not be suprised if you didn't notice your head exploding.
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An offense boost is unwarranted IMO. The top end monks didn't notice much if any change, now you want to boost their DPS? Boost monk offense and I think you'll see another round of nerfs down the road.
For the record, at 56 with 1100~ self buffed (epic+SoS) and 1150~ group buffed AC (human), not top end but not shabby either, I haven't noticed much difference in
Seb vs Juggs (yellow con) and Reets (one level blue con) (they hit me hard before, they hit me hard now), Protector almost killed me before, almost killed me after (pulling to the reet cubby) =p
The Hole vs Ratmen/Elemental duders (mid~ level blue con) (I could offtank them for a minute or so before, I can offtank them for a minute or so now)
Mistmoore vs 30% of the zone (mid green con) =p
Sol A vs. 50% of the zone (low green con) =p
I do seem to get hit for max a little more often (even against the greenies, but hey I'm way overweight when fighting them), but I still mitigated a decent amount of hits from Juggs/Reets down below 60~ (less than half their max), and still got missed alot if I was facing the mob. I'm not a parsing type person. My experience is entirely anecdotal. I really feel bad for the monks whose anecdotal experience has been the exact opposite of mine. My level 60 guildmate who breaks 1250~ AC says krups 'eat her alive now'.
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Here's how I deal with it.
"Hey you new monk in guild!" I said
"Who me?" Noob monk reply
"Go pull." I said.
Seriously, the nerf really did not make much of a difference when Im grouped with a slower and a warrior. I can still tank at a reduce capacity.
For pulling, we do take more of a beating. I just switch to longer range pulling tools and watch for possible adds before commiting to the pull.
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Tell me Dejaa, and all the others (supposed) monks who post here to say : I can live with all these changes, I didn't notice something, stop crying for this nerf blah blah blah... WTF ??? Do you play your monk ? or your lvl 60 Warrior ? If you don't want to listen that go away !!! I am like the majority of monks here to hope VI will give us back our defense they stole us, because this nerf has nothing to do with gameplay or classes balance and if you're a true monk you would know that, this nerf has changed nothing for the 1% ubber monk who can tank better than the ubber warrior (btw i want to see that because i'm not agree with this total BS rumor), it has only screwed the 99% non ubber monks FOR NOTHING.
Oh and one thing again Dejaa, looking at your magelo profile i can see why you can live with these changes but keep in mind that all the monks who complaining about this nerf don't have your equipment.
Just my 2cp
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If I was a true monk.... My 60 warrior.... Easy for me to cope....
Have you read a damn thing I have posted on this thread?
Send a message to VI QUIT!!! We demand to be treated like paladins!
On the same tone that you gave me, are YOU playing YOUR monk?
Are you having a GOOD TIME????
And you are correct, with my gear I have no right to post what I said here.
It isn't that I don't want to listen to what's in this forum, it's more that the majority of the posts and behavior are a lot more like crying babies.
Look at the way others post their thoughts on it. Talking about maybe we should have an offense change, etc etc. THAT is a hell of a lot different than OMG NERF I QUIT! Monk Shelved for good! Going to go back to my main!
Did I somehow start out blessed or something? Do you think I don't care for the 99 percent of monks that were treated poorly in this change? Am I here just self aggrandizing my point of view, forsaking all others?
Give me a break kid.
What I am talking about is the CANDOR of the people here. It's one thing to be constructive, and it's quite another to cry rivers of crocodile tears, followed closely by F U VERANT! I will never touch my monk again!!! Are you happy now?!?!?!
That, is sickening, and if you don't agree with that, fine, I don't really care. Sure, everyone needs to blow off a little steam, but there are folks here asking why god, why hasn't VI talked with us about this?
Gee, it's prolly because they are chuckling over the childish manner that many here take in voicing their thoughts.
The change happened. It's too bad that me, and all the monks I know in game have found ways of chuckling about it, EVEN the low level fellas. They should have just quit. Or screamed FU verant....
Do you honestly think VI wants to listen to us create our own dead horse here?
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LAST HOPE Hussy
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Typical "nerf is nbd" response: "You don't have my gear = you're a crybaby for whining that you're getting beat down by the nerf." Blah blah blah. Get your ass back to VT and let us paupers die in peace.
And last I checked, iksar wasn't an option prior to Kunark, eh? I'll gladly pay 20% of my xp to switch races now, the bastards.
Peace.
Sagal
Grandmaster
Keepers of the Circle
Ayonae Ro
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"Deal with it", is about what DejaaVous's comments sum up. Deja, do you deny the fact than anyone in power ever has possibly come to the WRONG conclusion on fixing a problem, and perhaps others are needed to keep voicing their opinion on said problem till it gets resolved?
Even people in high power will rush to judgement, and rush to a conclusion which isn't necessarily the correct one, which MOST monks agree the recent large defensive nerf was NOT the conclusion to come to. So you're saying that in life, whenever something changes that you're 100% opposed to, to just "adapt" to it? I think EQ is largely a democracy, the developers of this game ENCOURAGE feedback, whether it be positive or negative, I whole-heartedly and strongly disagree with said nerf, as do MOST monks, and the solution to this problem is not to "deal with it, and adapt", it's out duty as payign customers to voice our opinions, whether or not a change has already taken place or not.
In fact, how often does VI wait for their players opinions on a game change before the implement it? hardly ever that I know of, so the only way to express your disapproval for such change is to VOICE YOUR OPINION, not by sucking it up and "adapting" to what you believe was a bad decision.
I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with your passive ways of dealing with issues.
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<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Gee, it's prolly because they are chuckling over the childish manner that many here take in voicing their thoughts.
<hr></blockquote>
Gosh, ever think that perhaps many of the posters are children or teenagers?
Now act with a little maturity yourself and make allowances for the broad cross-section of posters a game forum is likely to attract. The hardman stoic is an easy routine to pull, and no more mature.
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Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=266873), Iksar Monk of Xev.
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DejaaVous - Just to clarify I was not stating a change in avoidance. I was only stating that seeing my screen run red with max hits and no misses was disturbing. I didnt parse it or anything so Im not making any statements about a change to avoidance. Just that first pull really was shocking to me. I have played a monk long enough, so really dont bother to point out the obvious. I knew you would point that out though when I wrote it but I took the chance and just typed it ;p. My post wasnt about quiting so you are off base. I was not stating doom and gloom so you are off base there. You want to see posts about ppl getting on with getting on, I really dont care what you want to see and it has nothing to do with my post so you are off base there. Go make your own post if you want. Umm, Im only seeing dark aspects of the nerf? Whats the light side? I was only posting my experience so wtf are you talking about? In my opinion you seen my post and wanted to enlighten everyone how you take the nerf and move on cause you are such a wonderful person and everyone else should be. Well sorry my thread wasnt about any of that happy crap. I only wanted to post what happened to me and how my opinion on the nerf has changed. If you want to adapt to the nerf then fine for you. Tell me, enlighten me to why its ok? How has it made game play better? Do you have anything postive about the change to say? If not then accepting the change without any kind of reisistance really ahh lame. People like you will be the ones that do the most damage to the monk class by not standing up for what you believe is wrong and just taking what they throw at you.
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</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/uxiaolone.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Xiaolone</A>* http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/anim_1.gif at: 10/21/02 7:59:11 am
And BTW, speaking of "do you still have fun?", fun for me was being able to solo with my monk, that's what I did a large majority of the time I played him. This change has vastly reduced my ability to solo, thus reducing my "fun". So no, I do not have nearly as much fun as I did pre-nerf.
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I was about to post a similar thing.
This weekend was my first "real" sraa raid since the nerf... Wow... I sure felt like a china doll there.
Shissar Liches which tended to hit me in the 200-250 average were hitting almost always for full 400... wow....
Then we went to NTOV, again my first raid there since the patch...wow... hehe again china doll...
I have a 60 druid also, so i can compare and wow hehe was pretty much same thing in damage received...except I have more HP on my monk <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">
P.S :
3740 HP
1257 AC
I am a monk with 98 AA... CS 3, CA 3, ND 3...
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<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Khrent FuryFistt wrote:
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Your the one that hit the human button Sagal.<hr></blockquote>
For some of us (myself included), Iksar WAS NOT an option when we started our Monks, and at Level 30, I had no desire to re-level from Level 1. Of course at that time, we BELIEVED VI when they said there would be some BALANCE between the two races within the class.
Also, if your AC gets to 1200+ at any time (buffed or unbuffed), you WILL NOT get hit as hard as at 1199 (actually 1193 since I occassionally fluctuate betwwen these two values when my group buffs start to fade). 1200 AC is now a major mitigation breakpoint for Monks. If folks are curious, I invite you to fight your normal MObs t 1200+, they do another round at even 1190 and you WILL see a profound difference.
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Jinpo
10-21-2002, 01:06 PM
I love it when people come in here with their epic, 1200+ ac and nearly 3k hps, and tell us to "adapt".
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Savanti
10-21-2002, 01:23 PM
Well here's my 5414hp 1226ac and 1334atk telling you to cram this nerf up VI's ass.
Juggs don't hit me for absolute max all the time but they get 5-6pts in range of it. They DO seem to hit me more than they used to each fight as well, so they ARE doing more damage.
Pulling sucks. I get hit for damn near PURE MAX every hit on giants who outrun run3 - Dragons - Vindi - etc. They used to miss alot more, but it seems that every time they take a hit on me while my back is to them that they AUTO LAND every punch, kick, basch, claw, bite, etc.
As to tanking, Toe to Toe with Vindi I didn't take max hits. Not one. I lasted 25 seconds, Did pop whirl at 1 bub and lived to see one Complete Heal. But MA had died and clerics took too long to find the person with agro. One cleric had died already from CHing.
Tanking Arena Giants, not much of a difference. I do take MORE hits, and they are Harder hits, but if you have above normal gear for a 60 monk, then you will be ok in a group with a cleric+Shaman on slowed mobs.
If your soloing, which I have NO intention of ever doing again now, I feel sorry for you.
I say, keep emailing VI, keep calling them, keep /feedback, keep /bug and keep posting.
They dicked our mitigation and it APPEARS to me they dicked evasive too instead of upping it. But that my just be becuase now mobs have less mitigation to get through to hit us.
Where's my leet offense? What really seperates me from a warrior now? Other than I die faster? FD? Disable my key for all I care I group bymyself and if I FD my cleric dies. FD does me no good except on initial pull. And that's ONLY if I survive the pull, which you dicked me on.
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Well I was reading this intently and it began to blur. I the information became less and the arguing increased. We were nerfed. We need to got to the drawing board and equip the best we can to offset the the nerf. This is something we can deal with. Our stats can be tweaked and our strat may need to change a little. I look at it a new challance. My guild still needs its monk just like before and intend on being beter than ever.
If I can afford it. lol.
Csonka 52 Monk. Unhomed of Povar.
</p>
LaotzuQigong
10-21-2002, 02:18 PM
Well, I'm one of those 1300+ ac monks that people seem to love dumping on in these threads, and to be honest, the impact on my day to day soloing and grouping has been minimal at best in the vast majority of situations.
However, I have always objected to the nerf in general principal even if the impact to myself and other late stage monks is nominal.
The fact is, the mitigation nerf is wrong. Wrong for one reason and one alone in that it has effectively raised the bar for progression across the entire stratum of monks.
Essentially, what this nerf has done is it has affected lesser geared monks on a variety of levels.
1) It has reduced the ability of the "average" monk to solo, thereby decreasing their progression rate within the game.
2) It has increased the mana pool required to heal that monk within groups, thereby introducing an effective experience penalty to those that group with monks.
3) It has increased the damage taken and fatality rate of those monks while pulling, thereby increasing deaths taken and raid progress. This slows monk level progression, as well as rate of gearing for all who rely on the monks as pullers.
Essentially, this nerf has only one effect, and that is to slow the progression of those who play the game as a whole. To basically retroactively retronerf the abilities of an entire class benefits nobody on any level.
More importantly, this is patently unfair to those monks who have not entered the late stages of the game.
The equivalent to this would be for Verant to suddenly retronerf all the "average" monks and inform them they had added a 10 percent experience penalty (10 percent less efficiency soloing, 10 percent less efficiency grouping, and 10 percent more fatalities/mana consumption on raids), and then to expect them to accept this without any complaint.
Keep in mind, that until level 60 AA points, monks already pay an experience penalty. And while this experience penalty has been compensated for in grouping situations (A patch last year added an experience bonus to compensate for the class penalty), it is still present within the context of the soloing monk.
To think about how much 10 percent means, think about how much time played the average monk has before they reach Level 60. Now add 10 percent. That's alot of hours and days. Now, make it worse by reducing the number of viable experience areas due to 10% less efficient soloing, and it's very easy to see that this in fact hits monks on 2 levels. Mobs that they can solo before are no longer viable, while those that they can kill can only be done at 90% of the previous efficiency.
Yes, playing a monk is harder for the "average" monk. And many monks will most likely adjust instead of cancel. However, that does not change the fundamental "unfairness" of the nerf itself.
Like a job, people expect a certain return for their efforts. For many people, progression in the game is that return. Their ability to become stronger, more efficient, better geared is a large part of what keeps people going (aside from the community itself). What the nerf has done is it has instituted an across the board pay cut, with those who aren't at the top, taking the brunt of the impact.
In the end, it's still wrong.
LaotzuQigong
60 Grandmaster
Legendary
The Tribunal
</p>
LaotzuQigong - nicely said
Why dont you send that to the developers? Alot of others have posted some very well written thoughts on this nerf. Please all of you take the 60 seconds to send them off to VI.
eqfeedback@soe.sony.com
eqmail@soe.sony.com
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[60 Grandmaster] Xiaolone (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=83959) (Human) -- EC Member of La Familia (http://www.eqfamilia.com) -- Fennin Ro
</p>
I think the problem here is that most of you post 60 multi-AAXP monks have really forgotten what its like to solo without all the uber equipment, and without all your extra skills, hp etc...
I am currently lvl 58...Iksar, non-uber...ac is 1080, hp around 2100...no guild...never had one, dont want one...first off guys that means no epic...no RotWF...at least not yet...so no self haste spell...best haste item i could get was SCHW...now pre-nerf, I was fighting the slaves down in nurga...could do it...used lottsa bandages...was slow, and sometimes would have to do a feign bind-wound cycle.
Post nerf...they hit me about the same number of time...damage add parses out to about 15 percent more damage...and I have parsed it...its almost all due to the increase in max hits. Now I can only solo them if with at least one feign bind-wound cycle sometimes i need two...
What was broke? Itemization.
This was illustrated quite graphically to me last night. Now that some of the more uber monks can't solo where they were soloing, I have watched a few solo the slaves in nurga...its mind blowing, watching a lvl 60 monk with aaxp, primal fistwraps, epic and about 4000hp solo 4 slaves in a row and not get below 60 percent health...all the while proccing avatar...sigh...
My point is, not every player wants to play the guild raid game or even group very often...but the nerf broke the game for us to the point where we can't really do anything but group anymore.
If you really want to feel the nerf...take off your gear...put away your primals...get your ac below 1100...and go try to solo something. Think of it as a challenge...heh...try to adapt to that...
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I love reading about all the monks for whom this wasn't a big deal. Undoubtedly iksar, undoubtedly w/ fungi/tstaff/cof, undoubtedly on slowed mobs, blah blah blah. Their inevitable response- quit then, or put up and shut up! Yet they always find their way to this forum to brag about how it hasn't affected them at all. <hr></blockquote>
I haven't played my monk much recently, before or after the nerf, since I'm trying to farm AA's with my main, but when I did log on to see how bad the nerf was, it was like this:
Human monk
Bare Fists
SCHW
Robe of the Lost Circle
Soloing unslowed solid blue mobs in Dreadlands at level 40, because I had just dinged 40 there a few days ago soloing with same stuff.
As I have said before, I noticed almost no change. A lot of min/max hits, slightly lower health at the end of a fight, and mobs still beat the living tar out of me if I have my back to them.
I also don't think I'm 'bragging' that the nerf didn't hit me hard. Some(Many) are saying how much it hurt them, I'm giving an example of the other side.
<TABLE BORDER="3" CELLSPACING="1" CELLPADDING="1">
<TR>
<TD ALIGN="center">Amzen </td>
<TD ALIGN="center"> Falaiys Mystweave</td>
<TD ALIGN="center">Pallida Mors</td>
<TD ALIGN="center"> Sarem</td>
</tr>
<TR>
<TD ALIGN="center"> 40 Monk </td>
<TD ALIGN="center">60 Enchanter</td>
<TD ALIGN="center">47 Paladin</td>
<TD ALIGN="center"> 30 Ranger</td>
</tr>
<TR>
<TD ALIGN="center">Eldrion </td>
<TD ALIGN="center">Xathas </td>
<TD ALIGN="center">Xayne Kaftan </td>
<TD ALIGN="center">Colter </td>
</tr>
<TR>
<TD ALIGN="center">18 Rogue </td>
<TD ALIGN="center">13 Bard </td>
<TD ALIGN="center">20 Necromancer </td>
<TD ALIGN="center">16 Wizard </td>
</tr>
</table>
</p>
"nearly being outdamaged by a warrior"
You are a retard. You saw one quite questionable log posted, and now you think you are nearly outdamaged by warriors. I've seen hundreds of logs, with monks nearly outdamaging warriors at a 1.8:1 ratio.
</p>
Wubao
10-21-2002, 09:49 PM
"Those mobs down there don't screw around. They never have. 8 out of 10 are hasted mobs. They have SoW, they have Rune, and with the resist changes, they are simply badass."
Hmmmm. This got me wondering.
"The Herbalst area has never been an area that Joe Blow Monk can go down to and just fart around and expect not to take heals."
Yah, well level 50 to 58 mobs aren't exactly your standard monk SOLO fare. Heh. But that's not what I was wondering about ...
"MONTHS before the nerf, when my group was testing the waters down there, we were wiped out numerous times to latent aggro, and more prevalent, tough damned mobs."
Getting back on track ...
"Since I started going down there I have upgraded a total of 2 equipment slots. I am not an uber duber monk. I am a decently equipped monk."
Ah, the PAYOFF ... when DID you start going down there?
Before or AFTER the changes to NPC spellcasters?
SoW, Haste, Rune, etc. ... this strikes me as POST-NPC-spellcaster change.
Would explain A LOT about those mobs.
Add on resist changes.
Add on the XP smoothing out of the 50s.
Add on the XP table tweak.
Toss on some change to your mitigation for spice.
Cook well.
Serve up a big steaming pile of NERF.
And for Desert ... we have OVERCROWDING caused by the level 61 to 65 population now NEEDING those mobs to XP on since Velks isn't their playground anymore.
Welcome to the Planes of Power, can I take your order?
:P
Wu
"
</p>
Deja vous, or whatever your name is.
I will not adapt because a few uber retards like you believe their words are the gospel. Verant have, within the last few days nerf and unerfed a class based on the same reasons they used to nerf us in the first place and yet they responded to 3 different communities in less than 3 days and are yet to give us but a SHRED of explanations as to why such hypocrisy has been displayed.
I have zero tolerance for that kind of customer service and so does many of us, you can either agree with us and post your support here. Or disagree, join verants ranks of retarded gutless dolts and try to hit your right shoulder with your left arm while trying to chew on your ear for good image. Your doing a fine job as it is.
In case you didnt notice the meaning throught my post, it means this: Shut up. Nobody cares what YOU think.
Do I still enjoy the game? Yes
Do I enjoy being done in the rear? No, I leave that to you.
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/uslaide.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Slaide</A> at: 10/21/02 8:48:41 pm
I upgraded 2 equipment slots over a 7 month period, to answer your question. We were down there way before the resist changes.
And for you guys asking me to just STFU, and saying I am VI side, etc etc etc... Fine, you can think that if you want. I just don't really care what you think about me, and you obviously don't care what I think about you, so the whole point is moot isn't it.
Still doesn't change the fact that imo there are some pitiful embaressing crybabies on this board that love to freak out about crap.
My words are gospel apparently.. Because I am uber...
What the hell are some of you dimwit's smoking?
Have I come here rooting for the change? Cheering it on? Saying it was a great idea? No, I chastised a monk for crying about how bad the nerf affected him in the herbie area.
That area was never meant to be easy, it never was, and I think it should be a pita.
As far as this community not getting a response... What do you think VI would like to say here? They would post something and in less than 24 hours there would be a thread almost 1000 posts long almost all containing the phrase FU VI!!!
The minority of posters on this change have been posting parse information. The majority have been screaming I QUIT and the like.
I understand WHY we got the nerf, and I do NOT agree with how they did it. SCREW ME that I happen to be lucky and not be level 35-55 anymore. I really feel for the up and coming monks these days.
But I don't feel for you self righteous pricks who think I am here sucking VI's weiner, supporting how they did this, etc etc. And no where in here have I said that. Most of the flames to ME in this forum are filled with rage to ME, and put words into my mouth.
So basically here it is. In case you forgot how to read, and absorb information from what I have posted.
Those that scream FU VI I QUIT, and the like, you get no respect from me, and I don't care if you would like to /finger me or not. You are embaressing to the community.
Again, that's just my opinion, of course I am wrong.
I do understand being enraged over this, but for crying out loud, you want to have a rappetoire with VI about this change when the threads here are so full of insults and threats that even the janitor at VI wouldn't want to reply to anything?
Is VI a bunch of hypocrites? Well of course they are. Did they do this change with limited testing and scerw the monk community? Of course they did.
I can't beleive that an ignoramus like you Slaide would even type the phrase "I will not adapt because a few uber retards like you believe their words are the gospel."
Are you high? Do I look like I have my hand down VI's pants? Ahhhh, I see, I was less affected by this nerf, and somehow that makes me a CHOSEN ONE who isn't any better than those that nerfed us in the first place. Well, honestly, go to hell.
Do I have to come here and support this forum? Nope. Do I have the right to chastise the childish and to me, embaressing behavior by some of the crybabies in our community? You bet I do.
Try at least comprehending what I am saying before you stuff words in my mouth. Next, will be a post telling me to troll elsewhere, etc etc etc. As much as you have the enjoyment of telling me to /gofuk, right back at you. You don't have to agree with me, and I don't have to agree with you.
Damn me for trying to be optimistic and get on with things. I should be here flaming VI on 200 different threads instead. That makes a lot more sense.
<Table Style='Filter: Alpha(Opacity=100, FinishOpacity=60, Style=2, StartX=085, FinishX=20, StartY=0, FinishY=0)'>
<Font Color=white Size = 3 Face=Times New Roman>http://www.lasthope-eci.com/screenshots/vous.gif<Font Color=white>Sister Dejaa Vous</Font> ("")</BR>
LAST HOPE Hussy
</Table></p>
</p>
Just to clarify
Im Iksar monk with average gear 1032 ac 1820 hp at 52 (with sos proc)....oh and the luck of having a 31% haste belt sold to him cheap (but lost my IFS in the proces <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":("> )
...what i got to say is this.....all you 2boxing ultratwinks say "bend over and let verant do what they please with yah" (ugh!) well you are a shame to all monks.... if you loved being a monk you will take a kung fu stance and fight till your beaten scaly(or softskin..hehe we are as one on this one) body can no longer go on and drop dead on the battle field knowing that you stood up for all monks who are REAL monks all their eq life (not ultratwinkies, or those who got pl'ed by their druid/shammy/cleric main)
My solution? well if they made us tank like rogues......then we need 1) ability to flury (yes we do!!), higher fk damage 2) rogue stile evade so we can do damage without having to taunt (they could make FD have a "lower hate" component..would make me happy)...or else?...make me be like i was!...heck i wana be able to pull again without loosing 75% of my hp on splits when buffed
Skailzz Swiftaiilzz
</p>
Deja:
No, we are complaining because they have altered an integral part of character. The primary reasons many of us rolled a monk was because of their damage mitigation and ability to solo.
Now, they demoted us effectively a great many aa points and the equivalent of a lot of equipment.
If you want to bend over and take it quietly, then do so.
However, its ridiculous that you are happy to take the nerf, but have a difficult time dealing with people complaining about it.
Its people like you that are gonna get us nerfed again.
Quit breaking ranks we are all in this together.
Valdor
</p>
Haeldaur said
Quote"You saw one quite questionable log posted, and now you think you are nearly outdamaged by warriors. I've seen hundreds of logs, with monks nearly outdamaging warriors at a 1.8:1 ratio."end quote.
isn't the reason this very nerf came about was becuse of a .01 % of the monk population tanking nearly as well as a warrior with equal gear?so if there is log's showing a top .01% of warrior's doing the same amount of dps as a monk mean they should redo the whole combat system for the warrior class?
</p>
Fopoodzo
10-22-2002, 07:27 AM
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> isn't the reason this very nerf came about was becuse of a .01 % of the monk population tanking nearly as well as a warrior with equal gear?so if there is log's showing a top .01% of warrior's doing the same amount of dps as a monk mean they should redo the whole combat system for the warrior class? <hr></blockquote>
Yup.
Also it may only be a very small proportion of warriors actually regularly out damaging monks, but it is a much bigger proportion of warriors coming very close to monk damage, whilst now significantly out tanking them.
Conversly rogues still do a lot more damage than monks, and monks now tank like rogues (or just above).
That's the real problem (pure melee balance -post nerf) and what needs to be corrected post nerf.
</p>
DejaaVous I never cried about anything, I posted my opinion on how the nerf effected me. Sorry but I am not some noob that never has fought hard mobs before that night. That area is not that diffcult for my group at all. We hunt in places like that all the time has the exp rocks. I dont need to waste anymore time with your back pedaling stupidity. You posted on my thread attacking me and my opinion for no reason at all. You do nothing by adpating to the change to help better the monk community other than helping to make it easier and more justified for VI.
<IMG SRC=http://www.eqfamilia.com/pics/sigs/kick.gif>
[60 Grandmaster] Xiaolone (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=83959) (Human) -- EC Member of La Familia (http://www.eqfamilia.com) -- Fennin Ro
</p>
In Deja's uber monk world:
"Complaing about a nerf = whining. Suck it up, take it like a man! What? You don't have primal fistwraps and shovel of the harvest like me?!? Stop whining, crybaby, someday you can be a l33t m0nk like me! I own j00! VI rules!"
Again, blah blah blah. My staff is longer than yours, this doesn't affect me cuz I'm so l33t, yada yada yada. If the nerf doesn't affect you, what other reason than to gloat over your less well-equipped brethren do you bother to post on this forum? Hmmmm? Get a kick outta being so "l33t" compared to the monks getting pounded now post-nerf?
<sarcasm>
Damn, bro, you really are uber, someday I hope I can be in your league. If only this nerf would go away! */em whines pitiabily and bursts into tears.*
</sarcasm>
If getting out-tanked by a ranger is okay by you, keep sucking up to VI and hope they take away FD/mend too- after all, you can just adapt right?
Peace.
Sagal
Grandmaster
Keepers of the Circle
Ayonae Ro
</p>
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
isn't the reason this very nerf came about was becuse of a .01 % of the monk population tanking nearly as well as a warrior with equal gear?so if there is log's showing a top .01% of warrior's doing the same amount of dps as a monk mean they should redo the whole combat system for the warrior class?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That was what most everyone thought. That is/was definitely the 'most visible' problem. You can definitely interpet the change notice or whatever you want to call it that way. That was what Furor's bitch was about (his monk twink that he used as 'evidence' for monks being overpowered was in basically the absolute best droppable monk gear). Most monks would agree that a monk with 1400+ AC and 4000+ hit points before buffs is/was a bit overpowered. However, you can also definitely interpet the notice to mean all monks. Nowhere does it specifically mention high end monks, it mentions 'proliferation of universally equippable, low weight...items'. Most people read that as 'proliferation of all/all NTOV and beyond items'. I read that (after several readings admittedly) as 'universally equippable between all/most melee classes'.
Reinforced Acryllia could be considered 'universally equipable, low weight' and damn good. Spider Fur falls into the same category. I would call neither of those uber or high end. Rings and earrings are going to be the same for most melee unless they think str, dex, and agility matter. With just reinforced acryllia and spider fur, a monk is equalling or surpassing an equal level warrior who is similarly equipped. (I'd still love to see Scalia's warrior friend's magelo, similarly equipped means equivalent warrior gear)
Do I think the nerf was a good thing? Hell no.
Do I think that VI needs to tweak some items to either prevent monks from using them or if they do use them cut into their innate AC bonus due to higher weight? Yes.
Do I think VI needs to figure out how to make mitigation AC beyond the 1250~ 'soft cap' matter without completely destroying older content anymore than it already has been? You bet.
Do I think VI needs to rescind the nerf and swing the nerf bat again, this time at the itemization that is causing the problem? Yes. Poorly geared monks, monks who are in line with the original 'vision' of monks, should not have been nerfed. A class that was balanced a year~ ago when the three 'pure' melee classes were balanced should not have a core ability nerfed.
Do I think an offense DPS boost to offset the nerf is a good idea, or warranted? No. Absolutely not. If our damage is sub par (and I don't think it is), that is frankly another discussion. As soon as you start to crusade for a DPS boost to offset the defense hit we took, you validate the defense hit across the board.
Do I think VI will do any of the above? No way. It is the nature of muds and mudflation that everyone progresses towards the end, only the speed that they travel towards the end varies from person to person. Eventually all the monks with the sub par gear will be in the best droppable gear that they feel they need. That might take 20 years (not joking), but eventually they would get to that point. Most monks just got knocked backwards a bit on that progression.
My progression graph for content:
Ideal:
newb---balanced---uber
Monk Pre-nerf:
newb---balanced---uber-(-)?
Monk Post nerf:
-newb---balanced---uber(-)?
If you were on the far right of balance, you just got kicked back out of it towards newb.
</p>
Seems to me like that's a pretty backwards attitude, Deja. Quitting a game you've devoted up to three and half years of your free time to isn't something you do lightly. I quit permananently a month or so ago after keeping my account open for several months, and I know it was a real wrench to me when I finally did it. My monk main was only level 54--I would imagine it's much, much worse for people who are leaving at 60 after accumulating a lot of AA points. And most of the posts in the "how many are quitting" thread have been pretty dignified, it seems to me--there's been some rage, sure, but I've seen more disgust than anything. People are basically saying that enough's enough--enough with the nerfs, enough with changing the rules of the game after people have put so much time into their characters based on what was best for them pre-nerf. The fact that a fair number of folks seem to have finally had enough and hung up their fist wraps speaks not just to the problems of this nerf, but to the whole Verant culture of disregarding its players' opinions, wants and needs, and treating their years of devotion and financial support as though they simply didn't matter. Quitting over this doesn't make you a crybaby, I don't think--it indicates you're capable of personal renunciation, and that you have some courage and guts. And as several people have noted, it's probably the only thing that might--probably won't, but might--get Verant to retract or mitigate the nerf. They're a company, and if they respect nothing else they'll respect threats to their revenue and market share.
As for why people are coming here and posting their decisions--well, this is a monk board. I think those quitting feel the need to explain themselves, and assume they can come here expecting at least a degree of understanding, support and sympathy from their fellow monks. Your posts show they can't, or if they can they can't expect the sympathy to be unanimous. But when you disregard this feeling and come here to shit all over those quitting or complaining, don't expect much sympathy or respect yourself. A little tact might be in order, if you think about it. If I walk into the memorial service of someone I disliked, I can usually see that it's not a good idea to trash his memory to everyone assembled. Sometimes it's nicer just to keep your opinions to yourself, even if you don't agree with what everyone else is saying.
</p>
I buy a new car, and I pay for a V8, 3 years later, the dealership shows up and tells me, hey, the engine is way too powerful for that car, we will be installing a V6 in it tonight, you have no option but to take it, and we won't be addressing any of your concerns after the fact. What would you do?
All you smartasses that say "adapt", what if this happened to your car, would you just say "adapt" then?
NOT ! so get over this positive attitude crap, and let us raise hell if we want to, and if you don't like it, don't read the threads. K thx
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/udaniellea2000.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Daniellea2000</A> at: 10/22/02 12:38:32 pm
Daniellea2000, you just gained credibility 20x more than you would have had you added 'drive thru' at the end.
Thank you.
Those who say 'drive through ' imply that they are being an ass and proud of it.
-Korph
<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=308735">http://gjband.com/Sig.jpg
Level 51 Disciple</a></p>
Hello All,
This is my first post since I'm usually too busy playing to post =). I want you all to take a trip with me down imagination lane please and bear with me a moment.
When you picture a monk you picture a shaolin monk right? these same people that gave us kung fu and all the really cool saturday afternoon flicks on the local channels right?
Ok, now I'm pretty sure you all had the same picture in your head, so it's not unreal to assume VI had the same picture. With that SAID I* will now comence to flame!
Monks in the movies and in RL sat under waterfalls to harden their bodie so they could take hits. They pounded bins of gravel so that their hads became herder and they would deliver harder blows. They studied the body to learn the most vulnerable parts to attack with the best results. (STILL WITH ME?) They were beaten with sticks to take hits from weapons. All that training led to being able to "diminish" damage to their bodies, basically becomming the toughest fighters in the world. Damage mitigation would be the game version of the results of this training. It is the core from which all their attacks and defenses came from. Building a stonger, tougher, and in most cases more agile fighter is what all martial arts revolve around (those of you who think Martial arts is for self defence should read up on history...Martial=Military=fighting, Self defence was a way of explaining to governments why they should not be banned). Without Damage mitigation monks can not only not solo effectivly (ever seen a monk take on 4 mobs at once that were dark blue or higher OR stand toe to toe with a white mob unbuffed because they have enough HP to last the fight?), but has also decreased party roles for monks. I out taunt hybreds that are around 4 levels higher than me already...I have not adventured with a warrior "my level" that can taunt a mob off of me IF I want to keep agro. And yet I have to basically "sleep" thruogh encounters alot more now (POST NERF) because the healers need to conserve mana for the MT and I can no longer take a round of hits ( I hardly ever fight mobs anymore that only hit me one time) like I used to...back to the mana issue with my healers. The day before the NERF I was soloing in TM, the day after I was working making it back to level 1. Same mobs, same area. After the first mob I just thought that I had a bad run of the dice, but to be hit consistantly AND for max damage over and over?
VI wanted to put us more in line with the other Leather classes...Last time I checked I didnt SEE any other leather classes that were front line fighters. Druids use root/rot/snare...last time I checked the mobs dont even get near them. Necros: Darkness, Dot, fear, have bad ass Pet Beat on mob from behind. Mage: DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDot. When have you ever seen these guys get close to a mob? On purpose? Enchanters are the only casters I've seen get close to mobs and that is because their pets need to get into the fray when they solo. What other melee/hybred class has a harder time soloing than a monk who is a straight melee? IF I'm lucky I can solo a blue...mostly I'm stuck hitting Lt blue, and even then those can be lethal. I actually died from greens the other day because by the time I killed the Lt blue I was at 1bub ( FD wasn't working because of a caster that I couldn't even see!).
Now back to the issue. The whole reason we have a weight limit was because of damage avoidance and mitigation. Now VI has taken our mitigation and we still have the weight cap? Not fair if you ask me. I am a poor monk because this IS my main character. I cant carry anything and now I cant solo for XP so I can go after better paying mobs. And i do believe that it WAS stated by baelish that the nerf was part because of the proliferation of...( cant remember rest) AND to even up monks being overpowered at higher levels ( not EXACT quoat so back off of flameing me). If VI wanted to weight the "endgame" more towards plate classes why the across the board NERF? why not a graduated scale as you go up in level on the damage mitigation? Seems like that would have been more fair and would have reduced the "OMG HOW DID I DIE?!! I OWNED THAT MOB YESTERDAY!" that every monk was asking on OCT 16th.
We are not exactly the most proliferate class on the servers. I count around 3 druids or 2 necros for every monk on my server. There is a reason to this as most of you will probably agree (those of you that are in ALL monk guilds this probably wont apply because all you see are monks probably) we are a very difficult class to run. I'm willing to bet that almost half of the monks on these days are/were alts to start. Those like myself that ARE mains probably didnt have a whole lot of money to start with and had to work very hard to upgrade our equipment. Our "mainly"monk equipment is usually way overgaurded by mobs or is way off the main adventuring areas (3-4 zones from nearest bind point) at mid levels. Thru this we have persevered and leveled AND have had fun doing it. But when we start doing more "negative" xp than positive, and leveling starts going more slowly because we have to be XTRA careful, is that when we finally put our foot down? Most of the posts I've read that say "the nerf didnt really effect me" HAVE come from "uber" monks with kickazz gear. I CAN adapt but that does not mean I have to sit quietly, that means I CAN complain until it's fixed or I switch my main to my enchanter who is only Lvl 26 because playing my monk HAS become no fun anymore.
BroknAngel Humblefist
LVL 43 Monk
Vazelle
Ears-obsidian bead hoop, NL "safe passage" hoop
Fingers-Vellium Blackpearl rings
Hands-Gem encrusted gauntlets
Feet-Footpads of the tiger
Legs-Stonehand
Wrist-Silent fist, Stonehand
Neck-Gold Blackpearl
Head-Executioner's hood
Face-Tattered Veil(?cant remember...first upgrade ever)
Chest-Black Panther Tunic
Shoulders-Drolvarg mantle
Arms-Crystaline Silk
P1-Goranga
P2-Fist
Range-Gem of Rage(? Brand new)
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"Also it may only be a very small proportion of warriors actually regularly out damaging monks, but it is a much bigger proportion of warriors coming very close to monk damage, whilst now significantly out tanking them."
You have no clue what you're talking about. 1.8:1 is not close.
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Golly Korph I feel so much better now............
Daniellea Dubois
Sister & Grandmaster
(retired/nerfed)</p>
I think that you monks picking on Dejaa are pretty sad. She obviously knows way more about the specific Chardok area than the original poster, who apparently has only been there a couple of times as a monk. She posted her experience and opinions politely. She doesn't think the sky is falling - fine, we all have an opinion. She can post hers, you can post yours.
Have some respect for your brothers and sisters.
Glencannon | 60 monk | Ayonae Ro
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