Should monks be able to solo post-nerf?

I don't have parse logs to refer to, but I can say that my ability to successfully solo for exp has dropped imensely post-patch. I'm lvl 54 without an epic (fungi, SSHS, Amy Staff) and I'm getting my butt handed to me on most encounters.



As monks we have spent three years learning and working within certainly guidelines as a class. Last week that changed, maybe not for the uber monks, but it did for me. I don't know how well other classes can solo. I understand that some can do it well (druids?) and others have a hard time (warriors?). Everyone chose their own path I guess. If I couldn't solo while playing a certain class (ie as a monk) then I would change classes or stop playing.



Don't take this wrong, I play EQ because of the people and I love to chat with the guild and group when I can. But RL takes priority and I can't change that. I spend my life on call, get a page and have to go, not to mention the hours I work. So being able to solo works for me, and even though there are more advantages to grouping with the new exp tables, I still have to solo most of the time. I love to group (I repeat that I LOVE TO GROUP), but when you group there is a certain expectation that you will commit at least a little time. Sometimes (often) I just don't have that time, and I don't want people mad at me when I have to leave at a moments notice (ie I get a page or my wife suddenly cons ready to attack). For people that can play from 1-4 hours (or longer) at a time this is not a problem, but sometimes I have from 20 min - 1hour to play tops.



Some could argue well it unbalances things to have one class solo better than others. How? Am I taking away everyone's exp base in the SD when there are only 5 other people in the zone? Do a group of soloing monks have a big impact on the environment? The only time I have ever really run into others wanting the mobs I'm soloing are Sol B and the enterance to the Hole (fine...I'll go elsewhere). I'm sorry if some classes are mad that we can solo and they can't, I encourage you to change to a class that can solo if thats important to you.



Do I have a profound advantage in leveling compared to my peers? Hard to really say, I've played 3 years (born April 99) with 83 hours played, don't have an epic and I'm lvl 54 (this is my one and only character btw). I've clawed through the 50's and almost quit on occassion because its so boring and tedious. Everyone I know bar-none (regardless of class) that started with me has long since made level 60 and started 3-5 other chars which are now lvl 60. Perhaps some monks make 60 soloing in a year, a month, a week....I don't know. If they did it, then more power to them and I'm glad it went by quickly. I'm sure that everyone has their own experience with this, but I think that by and large the more you play the faster you level regardless of class.



Perhaps there is no role for those that wish to solo in PoP, or the vision doesn't include those who solo. Perhaps the vision has no room for those casual players that only play less than an hour at a time. If thats the case then I guess the vision doesn't include me. The reason I play is because there are other people on-line and I love that aspect. I don't want a single-player RPG game like Morrowind, I really like EQ. I still group when I have the time and I participate in the Guild events every chance that I get. Sometimes I have 4 hours to spend on EQ and the first thing I do is ask the guild or start LFG. The ability to group when I have the chance and personal interaction have kept me playing this game. I have friends in EQ, people I've never met, but I care about just the same. If I had a choice I would always be in a group, but RL just doesn't allow for it.



I know that Verant wants people to group and I think there should be a big advantage to grouping over soloing in a game like this. I also think that soloing should be a viable option as well, and for three years it has been a reasonable option as a monk. This patch has hit me hard and if things don't change then I'm going to put EQ on the shelf for good (its really a sad thing for me for some reason). I have never posted here (or any board) before this patch, and I'm sure that I'm going to get lit up for this one. Just realize that there are many ways to play and approach EQ, I think many people solo for many different reasons. In fact I suspect that many people chose (and I would highlight this word if I could) to play a monk for the classes ability to solo.



The patch did not mention anything about removing soloing from the game or limiting a monks ability to do this. From what I've heard they have had little impact on the 2-5% of uber monks that caused all this in the first place and a huge impact on the rest. For my part the patch has changed the game for me, and its not the EQ I have known for 3 years. I'm not trying to whine, just to point out that I solo because I must and being a monk has worked very well towards that end. Some would offer that I should just start another char that can solo, but I would point out that 3 years is a long time to get to 54. I would be interested to hear from other monks that solo because they must. What are your thoughts on the nerf? What do you intend to do?



Gujoryu CrouchingTiger

Lvl 54 Monk (Legacy of Twilight)

Veeshan


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I belive this person must be me....I'm almost exactly in the same situation. I have alts though, but my main...my 52 Monk...is basicly dead to me now.



Kizard

52 Iksar Monk on Luclin


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Myself as well. Working 12 hour shifts as an EMT, I'm lucky to get a good half hour of play before I completely pass out of exhaustion. And when it takes fifteen to twenty minutes to get into a group and begin a camp, it's two or three pulls and then sudden "Real sorry, guys..." So I've primarily solo'd as a monk from the beginning. As the above, I'm more than happy to group when I can actually invest the time in it nessasary to be an asset to the team, but those occasions seldom come up even once a week.



It seems like several players in Everquest have given this stereotype to those whom solo that we do it by choice because we are anti-social or greedy. This isn't at all the case, at least for alot of us. We solo out of consideration for others, and out of the realization that in the ten or fifteen minutes we could have been a part of that group, we wouldn't even really contribute enough good to counterbalance the inconvienance of having to /ooc that they're looking for a replacement when we leave.



I tried to keep my hopes up in preparation for this patch, and I've given it my best shot since being nerfed. My findings were simple. As a level 43 monk with complete crap for gear I was formerly in Echo Caverns solo'ing Underbulks. Slow, yes, but for decent xp. At full life, I could take one and be around 25%. Then binding wounds to 50 and using Mend, I only had six minutes of downtime before the next kill. Post-nerf at full health and with Mend ready I am beaten into submission, use mend in the engagement, still get pummelled down to between 7 and 11 percent health when I give up and FD. At that point the same Underbulks I was solo'ing before stand at around 30-50% life. So I find myself back in Dawnshroud soloing Aqua cons for what little xp I can still scrape out of Zelniaks.



The results have been similiar across the board. I have yet to find anything that cons completely blue (not a mixture of 4 aquas for each 1 blue) that I can effectively solo. And what blues I can kill, I must be at full life and with Mend ready and I end the fight without Mend and under 20%. Binding wounds to full and then waiting out the mends means a minimum of 18 minutes downtime between kills, assuming I can find the rare mob weak enough to kill.



Is a complete inability to solo fair? Honestly, I feel so... had it been done from the beginning. Warriors have no right to complain that they can't solo as effectively as a Monk. They chose to play Warrior, and if they didn't know they weren't going to be able to solo effectively from the beginning, they should have figured it out within their first 15 levels at least. Then they could make the decision how important solo'ing was to them. If it was a priority worth changing for, not much of an investment of time was lost. But for players like myself whom have invested 40 and 50 levels into a Monk character, it is completely unfair to take that away at the drop of a hat. A large amount of our time had gone into these characters only to have Verant completely take them away. And that general attitude of "If you don't like it then switch" suddenly becomes alot less appealling when that means that the entire past year I've played Everquest has been wasted and I'll need to play for another full year, hoping and praying that my next choice doesn't suffer a similar nerf, just to make up what I lost. Across the board, the results I've heard from the casual monk in Everquest has been nearly unanimous. "If you don't like it, then cancel your account." It's not worth going through all that work again when Verant bares no consideration for what we've done.



I guess what really irks me about this, the only part that honestly makes me angry, was just shortly before this with the experience modifiers for groups being patched in, VI came right out and said that they had no desire to take solo'ing out of the game, only to make sure that it wasn't a superior way of gaining xp over grouping. They told us that they knew there were casual players (like myself) in Everquest who had not the time to invest in finding a group and a place to camp because of our real life obligations (in my case, saving real life human lives). They said they understood us and they empathized and had no desire to exclude us from the game, then turned around and did exactly that having blatantly lied to us. That hurts. And that robs the game of it's fun.



We here are all monks and know exactly what monk solo'ing is about. Of the other pure melees (Warriors and Rogues), we have the advantage in eliminated downtime by Mend, yes. But of Palladins, Rangers, and Druids with heals, SKs whom may lifetap, and Beastlords, Mages, and Necros with their pets to tank for them, we are most definately not the most superior solos in the game. The real life friend of mine whom introduced me to Everquest made a Druid as his untwinked first character and while I was scrounging out a blue here and there and healing through sitting, he was kiting red cons consistantly and not even having to bother medding between kills. Solo'ing as a monk is not exactly the fastest way to gain xp, and certainly it carries other ramifications that no other class has to suffer as with our weight restrictions we can't effectly solo and gain any nominal amount of loot without accepting the downtime nessasary of traveling to the nearest vendor and bank, which is sometimes several zones away. That explains that while others where their full suits of Crusty Armor which is deemed "cheap" in the bazaar now at only a full hundred plat per peice, I wear every peice of my Freeport newbie quest armor Of The Stonehand, and fill in the empty spots mostly with Cured Silk I tailored myself. Solo monk = broke monk.



All the disadvantages of soloing I have been willing to endure for this past year and always without a complaint. I'm proud of my Cured Silk Mantle I made at level seven. I'm content with my Polished Steel Ulaks that I looted off of Tribals that I killed just a few levels ago. I've put a great deal of time and energy into my character when time was a rare commedity for me, and I've done so with a smile because I was enjoying the game. I never expected to be one of those level 60 monks with their epics, but I at least wanted to be able to log on and have something to show for my efforts. The damage mitigation nerf has destroyed the solo non-twink monks ability to level, which I believe was the exact opposite of what Verant claimed to have intended.



I guess to us monks whom have worked hard to get where we're at, only to have Verant turn around and take it all away, the only course of action is to close our accounts, save the money we've been paying for the next year, then log on over to ebay and buy one of the Uber Monks whom the damage mitigation didn't affect. Then maybe we'll have half a prayer of standing our own against a blue.



Fridgette

Former-43 monk

Tholuxe Paells server


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First and foremost, i'm done with Verant and EQ. I wanted to get that off my chest. Once the decision was made a weight was lifted.



I would imagine a lot of us are old time players and we remember the days of being level 30 and wearing rawhide. Hell, the highest level jeweler on my server at the time just began making platinum items. I started on the Beta and continued with two paying accounts till now.



For those of you with your heads in the sand here are a few insights that I have looked back upon recently to help me decide that EQ was not worth staying with.



1) Verant has ALWAYS hated soloing. At times they have even stated such publicly. Don't EVER count on the fact you will be able to solo with any future changes unless you play one of a few classes that they cannot fundamentally change without breaking the class altogether.



2) They have a history, since the first days, of removing items, nerfing spells, and nerfing classes. Was the manastone truly overpowering in the days when there was no such thing as a wizard epic? Was it nothing more than a way for a soloing druid to speed up soloing slightly? Today while the manastone is being phased out they add items like the Manna Robe. Hypocrites.



3) In three years they have obviously not learned anything about item/level balance. My 20 warrior carries a non-level dependant weapon that is no drop, easy to get, and better than most weapons at any level (13 20, 1HS) Flame on.. My point with this is they have handed monks a game, in the last year or so, that has provided us with items that are far outside even their own vision of what a monk should have in terms of AC, HP, and stats. Is that my fault that i'm using these items? NO! Am I paying now for their ineptitude with regard to item placement and creation? YES! This is like buying a TV with a remote to find out a year later Sony has removed the remote for some obscure reason, AFTER people have become acclimated to it. Inept game design.



4) I truly don't think they have EVER listened to their community. Some of you think the fact the Absor posted two vague messages here means something. Did he give a SINGLE shred of information with regard to the reasoning or real intent of the nerf? NO. Has VI followed up with a SINGLE item for the monks who have been hit hard by these changes? NO. We can all speculate as to the reasoning behind some of the things they have been doing lately but it would seem to me this summer has been devoted to making solo classes less able to gain regular and AA experience. Some of you speculate this is all for the games greater good. I challenge those of you that think this to take the game as a whole, since it began, and re-think the concept of class balance. Which brings me to...



5) Class balance. VI has many a time over the years used this excuse to both enhance and take away from classes. Lets examine this a bit. First, how exactly can you truly class balance when so many class options are available? I think the idea is actually a farce. Does class balance refer to travelling, soloing, grouping, or tradeskills? Hmm. Druids travel well, have huge damage potential with spells. Warriors are, well, crappy at travel and solo and until the upper levels truly don't come into their own for grouping. How about Necros? Great soloers but never wanted in a group for the most part. You know they hate the role of mana battery. I can go on and on. Class balance in EQ = Not possible pipe dream.



The bottom line for me was I felt, well, kind of hypocritical and dirty by continuing to pay them for being so inept in the game design. They have never given the players enough credit for being resourceful, intelligent, and adaptable. They never thought SoW could be used in an offensive way? They never thought players would actually use the tools at their disposal to achieve levels as fast as they did?



The bottom line is EQ is a comedy of design errors and miscalculations on Verants part. Players play the game handed to them and are constantly rewarded for it by being changed in some negative way. They DID say they are sorry of course. Had they really had a grasp of the game when they added all these all/all items a monk could wear you think they would have? Why wait a year to make changes to some of these things? Why wait for people to start a monk and level through the upper reaches and THEN make such changes? Is it simply good business to have people start over every time their class gets nerfed? Perhaps.



I for one cannot and will not condone their history by continuing to pay them a fee each month like a good lemming especially at a time when their customer service is at an all time low. I have been betrayed yet again by designers with little vision and less understanding of the wonderful and complex world they have created. I loved EQ, but hate the direction it was going in. EQ has become a world for the elite, uber few. Not a game for the rest of us. I am only sad about leaving the good friends i've made while playing but I certainly won't miss EQ anymore.




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Personally, I think we had the nerf coming on us. We starting to out tank warriors. Solution? Increase our Damage.



You talk of the Manastone nerf. Why was it done? Because it was an overpowered item. Nerfs are done for the sake of the game. So was this one. Yeah, it hits hard when you get nerfed, but it would hit warriors even harder to be 65 and only tanking during the 3 minute Defensive.


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From personal experience my solo ability was craptastic, relatively speaking, before I got my epic (40% more damage was quite naturally *huge*). I could do it, but in most instances it wasn't all that efficient. Course...I didn't have a fungi either, but that's another story....



It's hard to say overall, but after sorting through the 40 thousand posts since the patch I'd hazard a guess that on average we still solo as well or better than all *comparably* (key word) equipped melee/hybrid's (definitely better than the other straight melee overall--and easily better than all post epic).



Assuming we aren't going to see any kind of adjustment to the reduction in our defense, maybe it's time we completely revisited the soloing guides to see what is/isn't still viable after the patch for monks across the board. Might as well see what we still can do instead of dwelling on what we can't.



Daishan

Grandmaster

Zeb


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/udaishanozeb.showPublicProfile?language=EN>DaiShan o Zeb</A> at: 10/20/02 5:15:55 pm

They may hate soloing, we may still solo as well as a warrior (ie. badly). But then they go and introduced the beastlord? Those guys solo like mad, recover faster and have the utility that spells bring. Slows, regen, pet?



Basically, unless you know you are going to get uber gear or be able to find groups when you want them you'd have to be a complete lunatic to play a pure melee (rogue, warrior, monk).




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I don't usually complain about verant's decisions, but this one is just too destructive. I have a 53 druid and a 53 monk on two accounts. I realize that this not exactly soloing, but my observations are this: They made excellent partners before the nerf. Since the nerf, my monk has become the druids bitch. It is no longer efficient to have the monk fight the mob and be healed by the druid. Now the druid has to root/dot the mob and the monk jumps in until ithe monk gets beat down, then sits out the rest of the fight. Fighting head-to-head to the finish is not an option any more - the druid simply does not have enough mana to keep the monk alive. These are blue mobs, and essentially the monk is just sucking exp off of the soloing druid. But I don't know of another way to get exp for my monk without finding a group, which I usually don't have time to do.



I am very frustrated at the amount of time that I have put into this character, only to have this change come about. I would have created a warrior if this was the plan. And I agree that verant seems to be intent on getting rid of the solo player. Necros look out!



53 halfling druid, 7th shawl

53 human monk, shackle of tynnonium


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Nice post Shivos



/agree 100%






Peacedog AoxomoxoA

58th Smiling Deadhead Monk of
the Lovelight Clan

http://www.tunareguildalliance.org/guilds/cotp_logo.jpg

Tunare</p>

all i gotta say, is bye bye Verant. bye bye EQ. Hello Earth and Beyond, havent had so much fun playing a game in years. SWG is going to be another verant nightmare, EQ is now a joke. Im just fed up with it all, and E&B was designed with every player in mind, actually has a storyline, and actually has quests that result in cool stuff, not just bullshit item you never use. i reccomend all you guys try out E&B, i play a terran enforcer and a JenQai Defender, you will be amazed with the content, story, graphics, load times, non-lag, everything pretty much. EQ is history


Koan Kong - Swifttail of the 4th rung



Koan's Equipment. (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=106543)</p>

you guys say that they don't want classes soloing but wasn't it like a mounth and a half ago that they made it to where clerics could solo a little better then they did at the time giveing them a new summoned hammer line of spells and a yaulp line to recover mana during the fight? heck as it sits now i know some clerics that can actully solo far better then a monk can with this mitigation nerf coming into the game for monk's.and they can actully take the hit's far better then the monk due to being a plate class with this latest nerf.


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I've started playing E&B, too. What a refreshing change!




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Try www.darkspace.net (http://www.darkspace.net) for a fun game if EQ is getting you down. When in doubt, blow up pixels. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">




- Celen

2nd Level Champion of Tunare

Tunare's Wannabe Boyfriend

Pet Warrior on Bristlebane

Holy Order of Tunare</p>

Well I may not be a monk, but I feel that I have some things in common to the monks on EQ. I play a Shadow Knight ( I know hiss hiss, one of them!!!) Well I am not going ot get up on my soapbox and tell you guys that you had it coming. I feel that the game does revolve around the grouping parties, and that the only way to reach the high end goals has been designed by VI to force you into groups. I have fear kited my way through my 40's and I must tell ya, it does suck. Yeah I have Life taps spells, a whopping 45 hps, that cost almost 1/2 a bub of mana per shot depending on level. God forbid that fear wear off....



Well I feel your guys pain, Soloing has been the way that I have played most of my Eq life, other than grouping with a monk friend. Soloing just sucks for everyone in this game. I know a few druids that do not solo because kiting is dull. just walking around in circles, yeah they get exp, yeah they can make a quick buck, but the game is more than that.



I hope that VI corrects the problems that they have added to your class, and corrects the problems that they added to all the classes. I would think that a monk should be able and whop some ass by himself, just like a dark knight should be able to strike down opponents and cause general havoc.



Just my 2 cents



Gharrik


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