Heres what a 60 monk in non uber guild sees after the patch.

I decided to post on what I have seen both from the nerf and the game in general. Im from a small guild that gets things done and we have decent equip. Though we are far from uber. We do 2-3 group raids and thats about it.



Before the nerf when fighting in UP, fully buffed I could pretty much fight most mobs in there slowed w/o any heals. My regen was usually enough to last the fight and in worse cases I might lose 2-3 bubs of life by the end of fight. After the patch I would always need a CH if I had to tank, and if it was just me solo on the mob usually 2. There was no doubt I was taking more damage (The cleric and chanter in the group were quick to notice and comment on the damage I was taking.) Since I never parsed before/after I cannot say what aspect has changed. I still didnt seem to take max damage much from hits but honestly I definatly did seem to be getting hit more. As I stated though its impossible for me to tell though im pretty sure the average hit on me has gone up.



Now that being said I was "sorta" ok with the "nerf". Our guild has one main tank and me as a back up. In most cases (IE reg ex groups I easily tanked better than the warrior, though I now believe it wasnt as much as my AC and mit as my regen. When Im fully buffed I average 50-60 a tick regen and with natures recov Im close to 80ish a tick standing. Warriors go for AC and +hp while most monks do the same few high end monk have a different BP than a fungi and the ones that do usually are wearing the VT ot ST chest with regen on it. Places like ToV and raid mobs though the tank was ALWAYS our main tank, there was no contest as his much higher HP alone made him the easy choice for MT.



Now onto the nerf. I had finally accepted it and hoped it wouldnt be too bad. Then comes patch day and I read the standard nerfs including monks, then outta left field I read suddenly 5-6 classes including rangers and others get defense raised and/or dodge raised. Now wait a minute VI said it was easier to nerf monks than bring up other classes, yet come patch day they do both. This has really made the nerf much harder for me to swallow.



Now onto the problems Im having. Im no longer the tank I was. I of course am a superior dam dealer than the warrior correct ??? Well not exactly. Since we arent uber we have sorta run into a wall. Warrior high end weapons are buyable (Sure some cost TONS of plat but they are still there). Are warrior wears a horn of hsraga and fleshgrinder. FG we camped in CT and we paid 50k maybe for the horn. Now heres the problem. ST weapons are considered a nice upgrade in melee damage. The warriors are pretty much equal to ST weapon ratio at 13/20 and 12/19+120 proc. As a monk I dont have these options, Im still using my fist in main (9/16) and knotted knuckles in off (switch with Aclub sometimes). The warrior has ever more higher end options he can choose from and I have nothing. SoDs arent really an option since there is maybe one on the server (the joy of being the 1st server to wake the sleeper.) The monk weaps in ST are 15/20, yet there is nothing even close to that buyable for monks. So as it is now when we fight the warrior is currently outdamaging me by 3-5% roughly, a small amount but really making my character a lot less fun.



Before the patch when our tanking abilities were pretty close (i was better for grinds, he was better for hard hitting mobs and stuff) but my monks equip was WAY above the morn and his was pretty much the norm. My monk had very little equip to look forward too atm, and his warrior still had ToV and more to get. I figured my tanking ability was ok since my gear compared by class norms was way better. No my superior equip leaves me well behind in all tanking He already is 1500 HP ahead of me raid buffed and has a lil more to get. Add in PoP with planaer dur adding another 15% to him eventually (as is should be only plate classes) and he will easily have the hp lead by 2500 hp or more.



O well, I dont mean this as a rant, just wanted to vent. I honestly used to love my monk, but now I have lost a lot of the heart i had for him. I cant tank at all like i used to, I cant get better gear (ST we "could" probably get into, but the few that drop the keys are dead with in minutes of poping, THO, and high end ssra are out of our league for now). Im being outdamaged by a warrior with more hp and looking at probable weapon upgrades before me yet again. Anyway I will continue to play my monk, though I will be playing my wizard a lot more. Below are the links to my equip and the warriors, and before ppl ask I paid 300k for the AoW legs :).



<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=83797>My Monk</a>

<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=94583>The warrior</a>

The warrior profile I listed is before he turned in all his ToV armor, he currently has a full set except the BP. You can view his ToV profile also as now it is much more closely to where he is now.


</p>

[Fopoodzo]

Yep this is a major issue.



With the nerf warriors (and some hybrids like rangers) are doing near monk damage and tanking much better.



Whislt monks are now tanking closer to rogues but not doing anything like rogue damage.



To not doubly nerf monks and in many respects make them superfluous, they need to proportionally (to the defence nerf) increase monk offence/damage.





The question is will they realise this? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/bmonklybusiness43508.showLocalUserPublicProfile?lo gin=fopoodzo>Fopoodzo</A> at: 10/20/02 1:58:37 pm

The lame thing is.. a monk needs superb gear in ALL of their slots to approach the average warrior's tanking. Yet a warrior needs ONE or TWO items to outdamage/match the average monk.



In the wilds of Antonica, the forest Tanuki (http://www.odanuki.com/Gallery/article.htm) were renowned for their sneaky ways.



Kawai Tanuki ("")
Celestial Grandmaster of Excelsior

<center>


<marquee direction='left'>
Congratulation!!...AD 2111: All Bases of Cats were destroyed. It seems to be peaceful. But it is incorrect. Cats is still alive. ZIG-01 must fight against Cats again
and down with them completely . Good luck!!
</marquee>

</p>

So you're saying you are mad at VI for the fact that the warrior is wielding better weapons than you are.



Good point. I'm mad at the government for the fact that my friend drives a better car than I am... I know exactly how you feel.



I think I'll go and /picket


</p>

Hes mad at the fact that its far easier for even a warrior to outdamage the average monk.. than it is for a monk to out-tank a warrior. Previously he considered his lesser but comparable tanking abiltiy as some compensation for the fact that the warrior outdamaged him, but now his tanking is nerfed he doesnt believe it fair that the warrior also outdamages him.



IE. Verant thinks its ok for monks to be outdamaged by warrior when the gear lets them.. but not for monks to outtank warriors in ANY circumstance.



In the wilds of Antonica, the forest Tanuki (http://www.odanuki.com/Gallery/article.htm) were renowned for their sneaky ways.



Kawai Tanuki ("")
Celestial Grandmaster of Excelsior

<center>


<marquee direction='left'>
Congratulation!!...AD 2111: All Bases of Cats were destroyed. It seems to be peaceful. But it is incorrect. Cats is still alive. ZIG-01 must fight against Cats again
and down with them completely . Good luck!!
</marquee>

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ukawaitanuki.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Kawai Tanuki</A> at: 10/20/02 2:45:11 pm

No, he's mad about the discrepancy between the purchasable weapons for warrior vs. monk, and he has a valid point. Purchasable monk weapons, once you get past the SoD onto the stuff that's actually available, is not as good as the warrior gear that's purchasable.



If you are uber as a monk, you're going to be getting better weapons than the warriors, hands down. Warriors have nothing that can compare to caen's, or fangs / GMU. But if you're not ST-capable, warriors can at least buy upgrades (and damn fine ones); monks top out at kashek's / SoS for realistically purchasable weapons. Kashek's is a wash vs. epic for damage, more or less. Primal is a much bigger upgrade for monks than other classes.



This isn't like whining to the government that your friend drives a better car, this is like whining to the government because they decided to cut the pay of everyone in your line of work, except those who were in the top 5% of pay, AND continue to charge you higher taxes, while they have always had, and continue to have, low taxes for your friend, whose 'income' remained unchanged. Ok, that's about the worst analogy I've ever made -- I blame what I had to work with. :P



This is just another post that'll get ignored by the uber level 60s, anyway, and I don't blame them. I know it has to be hard to truly remember what it was like before they were uber (if that was ever the case). No sarcasm intended; I'm in above average gear and I can't even fathom what it would be like to have 1000 AC / 1900 HP.


Slithers Sa`angreal (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=249499), 57 Iksar Monk of Prexus
Proud Member of Azure Sky (http://azuresky.droz.net)


Koidoken Seadragon, 20 Friar of Guinevere

Member of Bound By Faith (http://www.geocities.com/boundbyfaith2002/)
</p>

You can't single out oneside as being unacceptable tanking comparably with top end gear and say it's ok for the other to be doing damage comparably with top end gear.



What's good for the goose is good for the gander.



Solutions are one of the following...



1) Restrict Warrior access to top end weapons.



2) Increase Monks damage.



3) Nerf Warriors damage tables.



...it's the exact inverse situation that VI felt was unacceptable for Monks.



Lets see if VI has the balls to go the whole way.


<hr />
<div>
Xarnak "Death to all fanatics" Clawfist (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=266873), Iksar Monk of Xev.
</div>
<div>
Dubious member of Hawkestone (http://pub72.ezboard.com/bhawkestone).
</div>


<div>

"I stare, it stares back.

I long to know its feelings.

It demurs. Lunch, then."


</div></p>

Just a side note....



They said they couldn't fix the perceived problem 'solely' by raising other classes defense--kind of suggests that they had planned on doing both. (That and the phrase about how monks originally were only supposed to have 'passable' defense makes you think they intended to hit the average monk the whole time).



Anyway....I agree on the lack of good droppable weapon upgrades. Wouldn't mind seeing a larger selection in PoP of the 12/20ish variety w/ effects and stats, with a few available that are above that (even if they make em 60+ only).



I'm not expecting much (naturally), but I'm hoping to see a few nice droppable upgrades for all slots. Course....they'll probably release the expansion without the damn loot being in again so we'll have to wait till after the 237th patch or so to find out what's really there =P



Daishan

Grandmaster

Zeb


</p>

[Tenshai]

I'm a 60 Monk. I recently got my Epic. I have T-Staff, SoM, SoS and Epic Fists. Fungi and overall fairly good stuff. CoF for Haste.

My guild's Mt, with whom I play a lot, is a 60 Warrior. He wields Radir / Tawro weapons, which are really easy to get, namely ShadowHeart and Longsword of Freedom. He has a Cobalt BP and mainly Thurgadin or Skyshrine Armor. CoF for Haste.



We have the same AA XP (No Offensive nor defensive stuff)



After a lot of Parses, mainly in Umbral Plains (with same buffs, VoG and a couple other...):

-Warrior is doing around 45-48DPS.

-I am doing 41-44 DPS with Epic Fists (often with SoM in Off Hand).

-I am doing 47-50DPS with T-Staff.

(For info, the Epic Rogue we often group with is around 68-72DPS with LS of Freedom Off Hand)



I'd like to add that i'm 1070AC / 2280hp unbuffed (Warrior is around 1200AC / 3600hp) -- with very comparable armor (best Kunark BP for our classes, a lot of Velious stuff: Thurga/SS armor and a couple Luclin items) considering our classes.



There is the data.



My point is that a Warrior does not do shitty damages. I am unable to get the 20% more dmg Verant told us were fair (when the rogue, with nothing but his long time Epic is doing 50% dmg than me...)

Damn, I am whining <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">



Whatever. My Tanking abilities are no match with those of a similarly equiped Warrior. My HPs are way lower.



And I am doing similar damages. Nerf Monks please.


</p>

Id reply to Deian222 but his statement alone tells me enough about his logic to ignore him.



Id agree in the high end, monks probably do the correct % of damage over warriors, but then again this is also where the nerf was intended to hit the hardest.



Look in CT at the current equipment there, its all tradeable and will eventually be on the market. A 15/20 with great stats rog dagger is availible, and in the CT ring warriors can get weapons as good as 13/17 with a huge proc and stats. If ya dont think its true look up the Horror shade blade



<a href=http://www.eqmaps.com/zone.php3?tag=cazicthule&item=10199>Horror Blade</a>



While it might be "rare" it will be buyable eventually on servers, take myself buying the AoW legs as proof. Lets also point out one of our best weapons is 12/20 and while its a decent weapon, common weapons like the 300pp centi LS or SS are pretty close at what 12/23 or 12/24. As these are the FS of luclin, what will the FS of PoP be?? I mean does any 60 warrior really use centi crap, it usually all bought for twinks. If the FS in PoP gets lowered to 12/20 or 12/21 and they add H2H ones theres a good chance youll see lvl 60 monks actually tryin for these, while other classes laugh at us.



Case in point with the above post about there warrior in radir weapons. Ours was too (hence the reason I have the knotted knuckles). For warriors and other classes he drops a 11/17 , 10/18 +2cold and tawro drops a 11/20 +3 fire. Then the monk weapon shows up with a horrid delay. Ill be honest the ratio isnt that bad and the stats are nice, but honestly I would have preferred even an 11/17 weapon for myself, let alone the fact monk weaps from the same mob should be slightly better.




</p>

check out the Amygyldan (or so lol) War Staff,

37/36 2hb + stats , monk usuable , from CT too <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">


</p>

You mean that staff that does the same damage as our Kunark era top 2hb?


<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=391058">Araya Le'Bon<a> 51 Wood Elf Pathfinder
<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=46329">Varanuss Albigularis<a>
60 Iksar Grandmaster<a> </a>(on vacation due to nerfage)
<a href="http://pub40.ezboard.com/ferollisisheartfrm4">Erollisi's Heart</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Before the nerf when fighting in UP, fully buffed I could pretty much fight most mobs in there slowed w/o any heals<hr></blockquote>



I couldn't do this before the patch, I can't do it after. I've looked at the DPS I'm taking and it's virtually the same pre and post patch (average 20 to 25 DPS from slowed mobs in Umbral). The only difference I notice is that the damage variance is much wider than before and healers are healing me earlier to be safe. I can go 20 or 30 hits without taking a significant hit, then suddenly take 10 in a row at max.



Last night I happily tanked a dark assassin and a named netherbain at the same time. On Saturday I tanked a 257 hitter (dark ravager in SoNH) without any problems; only grouped with a shaman. Friday I popped into FG and tanked the level 60 bugs. Saturday night I pulled HoT, no difference in survivability there.



So, what was this nerf again? Cuz I'm really not seeing it.


</p>