Tentative Conclusion: The fallout

Reading over everyone's parses, feelings etc, this is what im going to tentatively say, regarding 'what happened'.



Our mitigation has been DECIMATED. Formal deffinition of the word here, IE reduced by 10%. Ultimately we see a lot more max hits now, but over time it balances out to about 10% more damage per hit. This seems consistant across levels and the range from ghetto to uber.



Our avoidance has been increaced. Harder to pin down a percentage here but most reports are consistant in seeing a higher percentage of misses. Naturally this reduces the number of blocks, dodges, and ripostes and there are slightly less hits for those skills to work with.



OVER TIME, it seems our DPS taken is more or less the same. This does however make us more succeptable to spikes where we both dont get missed and get on the higher end of the damage taken spectrum. The largest threat is where the mobs in question can hit for a significant portion of the monks hitpoints. This effects many solo scenarios as well as higher end encounters (pulling). Monks who stand to suffer the most from this would be those who have not yet built up a significant HP pool through high end gear, as they do not have the health to survive through such a bad spike.



It was true before. Even truer now. HP >> ALL






Cuthul Paindancer

Master of the Path of Pain(Rodcet Nife)

Warlords of Wrath


Cuthul's Moderately Ok Gear (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=329174)


Culthul's Little Girl (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=182753)




" I've put up with being subpar damage wise because I was a fucking truck...now I'm just a little midget in a jeep with a pellet gun." --Sarthis</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ucuthulpaindancer.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Cuthul Paindancer</A> at: 10/18/02 8:48:24 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> OVER TIME, it seems our DPS taken is more or less the same. <hr></blockquote>This certainly does not appear to be true for me. (At 3327/1206, I have ~650 more hp than you Cuthul, 60 worse AC). Maybe your AC is really helping.



Whenever I have an hour or two of free time, I 2box dregs in FG. Previously I could handle these np with a kunark-geared level 59 cleric, BAoTR (Cleric self mana regen buff) and never run out of mana, pulling as fast as I could split and kill. Now a level 60 cleric (she finally dinged yah!) giving me aego, needs KEI up is enough; the 59 with BAOTR wasn't, 60 with BAOTR wasn't.



Granted, I have no fancy parses to back up what I'm saying, but I have run these trials for 2-3 hours both before and after the nerf.



If you fight trash mobs (shrooms, spiders), you MAY find no difference. Fighting tougher mobs (dregs, stuff in UP, Cazic) I notice a BIG difference.



--Katriona


<center>Norrath's only Celtic Sensei (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=124106). Five Rings (http://www.five-rings.com).</center></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ucatrinofluclin.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Catrin of Luclin</A> at: 10/18/02 9:09:37 am

Then PARSE this. I wish people would stop saying they 'feel' that they are worse and actually come back with some sort of proof.


</p>

I posted this in another thread as well, but it definitely might be of use to folks looking in here as well:



Level 59 Human Monk.



Was grouped in ME last night, doing Level 55-59 MOBs Gorganna Scouts, "Grey Aliens', Hooded Xi-Viuas, and 4 armed Kabuki's, hey that's what we call them) near the ME/AR zoneline.



Group started out as me (still tanking), Cleric, Rogue, Bard, Shaman, Enchanter (all Level 58-60); and near the end the Shammie was replaced by a Mage with a pet for the Shaman, and a regular Level 55 Warrior for the Rogue.



Here were my stats:



1) My unbuffed AC is 1100. Unbuffed HP 2500 (no AA points)



2) With group buffs I was able to get to around 1181 AC, and HPs to 3700 or so.



3) With epic effect and a Bard twisting 'Cantanna of Replenishment', 'Verses of Victory' (these two were constant) and 'Nilipus March of the Wee', (this one was sporadic) my buffed AC fluctuated beteen 1193 and 1205 on most fights.



4) AGI was at 255 for most of the night (ie max avoidence AC add from that for whatever it's worth.)



We were there for about 3 hours, and I noticed the following:



At 1193 AC, I still saw a lot of hits for max damage, however when my AC went to 1205, max damage hits were very noticably reduced. I also fought enough MOBs and had situations where I can honestly say that getting to 1200 AC for me made a BIG and very noticable difference in mitigation, and while it wasn't back to what I consider 'pre-nerf' level, it was closer (I'd say I was taking only 10% to 15% more bamage than before, which is manageable imo; as opposed to 30% to 40% more damage while under 1200 on a consistent basis).



This may explain why most Iksar Monks with similar equipment (since you guys do have about 60 more base AC points then myself at 60, and AC gear equivailent to mine ins't hard to obtain), are saying they only see a 5% to 10% increase overall.



I wasn't able to break the 1200 AC barrier until last night, as I wanted to see how soloing had been affected by the nerf, and was at 1112 AC that first night for 2 hours, and then went to CT for an hour that first night, but that Group was a Warrior, myself, Cleric, Bard, Enchanter, and a Wizzie; so as I stated, that first night I never broke 1200 AC.



I still bekieve the original mitigation nerf was WAY to harsh, and could either use some adjusting (and no, I not saying back to original levels); or they could up our avoidance chance a bit. However, from what I experienced, unless I got really lucky on whatever rolls the system uses to calculate max/mon MOB hits on me, I honestly believe 1200 AC is a mitigation break point now (at least for level 59 Human monks); and if you want to live with the new patch, that's an AC number to shoot for. Again, Iksars will probably be able to get to this unbuffed a lot easier. For me, I'll need to get good Group buffs, or obtain some Uber NToV gear that VI wishes we never had access to in the first place (or so they say now.)



Just one Monk's observbation, take it for what it's worth to you.




<center><image src = "http://www.catplex.org/chilau/chilau_fk5.jpg"> (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=30466)
<table border>
<tr><td>
Chilau SwiftFist

Purgatory (http://members.optushome.com.au/sunsworth/)

The Nameless Server</td>
<td>
Master Monk of the 59th Order

View my Profile on Magelo (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=30466)


View my Profile on Allakhazam's (http://eqdb.allakhazam.com/player.html?player=90187)
</td></tr></table></center></p>

Dregs would certainly fall into the higher threat category I mentioned. They hit significantly harder than shrooms or slaves. They will spike you and spike you hard. Boom, your hitting that CH several seconds sooner when you see that health dropping away.



More results are still coming in, and this is very tentative still.


Cuthul Paindancer

Master of the Path of Pain(Rodcet Nife)

Warlords of Wrath


Cuthul's Moderately Ok Gear (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=329174)


Culthul's Little Girl (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=182753)




" I've put up with being subpar damage wise because I was a fucking truck...now I'm just a little midget in a jeep with a pellet gun." --Sarthis</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> since you guys do have about 60 more base AC points then myself at 60<hr></blockquote> 42 more ac.



I wish I had some logs of tanking lvl 50+ mobs. I could test a 1050ac monk against a krup knight. I don't think that monk could come close to soloing something like that before the changes, but a Krup still isn't something I would consider remotely dangerous.



On the other hand I will be pulling WToV tonight for a small raid. Perhaps I will see a difference from the last times I pulled.






</p>

After going over my numbers again which I posted in Cuthul's other thread, I'm seeing the same thing versus low blue mobs as a 56 human monk with 1050 ac. I was taking total of 8 - 9 percent more damage over MANY fights.



There were a lot of variations in damage though. I had fights versus the same mobs that dropped to a low of 9 dps, to a high of 27 dps. Sometimes mobs would hit me 8 times in a row, sometimes I would get missed 15 times in a row - things are more streaky now than ever that is certain. I'm also looking at a jump in avoidance from 56% to 61% (62% for some samples). The only contrary input I have is that my average damage hit rose by closer to 20%, the avoidance seemed to make up for that.



Here's where my input stops being about numbers, and more about obvervations and inferance. I don't think the change is as straight forward as VI would have us believe. I think the change is with how the random nubers are being gen'd, not how they stack up versus monk AC. I know that sounds weird, but I can't explain it any other way when I'm seeing a 5% jump in my avoidance, but I'm taking more consecutive hits than I did previously.



I really am interested to hear if any other class has seen any change in their numbers.



On HP being greater than AC for certain, I'm going to have to go with this too. Whole heartedly. During about 10 fights I took off all my gear except CF's and SSHS... I honestly didn't parse any differance in DPS. I know it's a small sample, but it's worth looking at. Do more parses naked if you think you can survive. In my case taking off that much HP gear was getting me close to dead, and not having Fungi on was slowing me down.


</p>

Cuthul did some comprehensive numbers, but unfortunately, they were all low-blue, easy mobs.



I wish we had some pre-nerf data on mobs that were at the top end of our soloing spectrum, level 50ish mobs that hit hard but were soloable prior to the nerf. While I've seen some parses like this, they were all done by the rare insanely ubermonk with 4000+ hp and 1400+ AC.



I have some logs somewhere of fighting some of the level 50 skeletons in Echo Caverns, pre nerf. I'll find them and send them to Cuthul for parsing. Then I'll do them again now post nerf....


Sensei Deirdre Sadiqa (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=192025)

Grandmistress of Tranquility

Warlords of Wrath
Crouching Tigress Training Dragons
</p>

QUOTE



"Then PARSE this. I wish people would stop saying they 'feel' that they are worse and actually come back with some sort of proof."





Well if i pretended i was the only monk in the game...i can conclude this..they said they were going to nerf us...they said ..its done the changes are in this patch.



Now heres an example of what im seeing



Im lvl 54

Epic

Fungi

1900 hp

1040 AC



Normally when I run thru Fungus grove I always kill the 3 katta quest Npcs that are there.

Before the nerf..and I've done this countless times. I could kill the barbarian woman.

kill the gnome..mending sometime dureing this fight.

Then kill the guy inside the tavern ..useing SS I would end up at about 50% health

These guys are low dark blue and always pop the same lvl..and NO casters.

Ive have killed these three SOO many times in the last 2 lvls I wouldnt even care to try to count them..they have a long respawn so I dont camp them I just mash them EVERY time i travel thru FG ..which is alot.





Now I can fight the woman ..need mend.

start the gnome need stone stance...then have to FD him off before hes done.and bind a few times to finish ..then bind to 90% fight the last one ending up at 20% =(



thats A BIG HIT TO DEFENSE REGARDLESS OF THE NUMBERS..



I dont need the numbers to tell me I im hurting now.

Incase you havent noticed theres a wide range of lvls with a wide range of gear reporting alot of diff thngs ...i dont think anyone will pin down good numbers that will apply across the board theres to many veriables to say one % loss of midigation will apply to all.




</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Cuthul did some comprehensive numbers, but unfortunately, they were all low-blue, easy mobs.<hr></blockquote>



I'm still hoping to get some solid data logged where I grind (2 box or 3 man) in PoM. It's consistantly level 55-58 mobs (mostly 55), so not really what we would consider solo material, but I do have a lot of log data on these from before the nerf. Maybe I'll get a few hours in on Saturday night or Sunday and be able to post some results after that. I can tell you now that my results won't be ideal since my AC and hpts fluctuate while I grind as buffs come and go (neither Major Shielding nor Avatar are up full time), but I'm mid 1200s AC for the most part in this grind, so we'll see how that averages out.


<center>

<map name="GrasMap0">
<area href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=21306" shape="rect" coords="75, 4, 396, 53">
<area href="http://www.archonsofchaos.com" shape="rect" coords="154, 87, 399, 131"></map>http://home.attbi.com/~jemalino/grashopa.jpg</p>

<font size = "1">"I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" </font></p>

[Kurrlee]

Did anyone parse the extra damage we are taking on the pulls? or just the fights?



I've been in KK hunting for quite awhile now, I have it down to a science how to hunt there. No I do not have any parses, I'm leaving that to you guys that enjoy that sort of thing.



While toe-to-toe fighting we might only be taking 10% more damage from green, light blue and low dark blue MoBs, during the pulls I noticed that I am getting hit for max (or close to max) damage on most of the hits. My guess is that this would fit the pattern as we would sololy be relying on mitigation from behind.



This would also make sense for VI to do this as well as they have never really embraced the idea of pulling MoBs.



For what it is worth, my stats:



Iksar 54 Monk

1909 HP

1068 AC


Kurrlee

Shackle Of Tynnonium</p>

If you can't out run the mobs you're pulling just face them. It may take alittle more time to get to camp, but you won't get beat to death tryn =)


- Sojo
Court of Pain</p>

[Kurrlee]

Can't swim backwards


Kurrlee

Shackle Of Tynnonium</p>

I can't help but think that saying to VI is, "I can't solo" is going to get zero sympathy. That's what they want to nerf. Saying something like "I can't pull my weight in a group because I take too much damage when I get agro" would be better. So in this case the mobs a monk pulls and fights in groups is important. Perhaps, "The ranger offered me sympathy for being a gimp" <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">



However, as has been pointed out, I didn't parse so I have not a leg to stand on. I certainly know I felt like I was playing my rogue again. I really suspect that a rogue with equal gear mitigates much better than we do.





Shinrai, Monk of the Lost Circle.
A proud member of Southern Armada
</p>

[Fopoodzo]

From my intial data I'm taking 10-20% more damage per fight (in reduced mitiagation) and have NO avoidance increase. But I need some more post-nerf data to be more sure.







If they want to make monks non-tank, that's fair enough, but if I tank almost as badly as a rogue then I need to be doing damage closer to a rogue as well.





Post-nerf monk are now tanking like rogues and doing only slightly better damage than warriors.



Post nerf the whole warrior/monk/rogue offence/defence balance need to be looked at again.


</p>

I have four prenerf parses of 2boxing Goranga Moktors in Umral Plains (60 monk, 60 cleric). I was taking 18k or so total from each goranga, not counting damage on the pull. Each fight took about 4.5 minutes and the data was very consistent.





I'll do post-nerf parses as soon as I get my other computer back, and post the comparisons.


Grazel Nukite, Grandmaster

Triage Quadbypass, Vicar of 60 Blueberries

Valiant Elite, Druzzil Ro

</p>

I do not have "parsing" to prove my findings. To me the effects on gameplay are much more important than the raw numbers anyway.



Stats vary based on situational gear but on average my stats are:



level 55

unbuffed AC: 1086

buffed AC: 1179

unbuffed HP: 2253

buffed HP: 3786



I give up around 55 ac and 250 hp when I am in full resist gear.



Before the nerf (unbuffed,) I could solo 2 dark blue rockhoppers in DS and maybe a light blue using just mend and robe haste before I would have to bind. I could solo 1-2 dark blue Wyverns in CS before having to mend.



After the nerf, I can barely solo one light blue rockhopper using mend. Of the dark blue ones I have tried, I was successfull one time using mend, haste and stone stance but was almost dead. The rest, I have had to FD when they were still over 1 1/2 blue of health, some still at 3 bubbles. I can no longer solo a dark blue wyvern and the light blue ones are a close fight with mend and stone stance. I have not tried intimidation yet, but I never had to use it before and have not had good luck with it on mobs of this level in the past.



Before the nerf (buffed,) I could pull in the Arena, Umbral (including dark masters/doomshade and rumblecrush) and on chardock royals raid without sow or run3.



After the nerf, Arena and chardock are now out and I need a sow to pull in umbral to survive the trip back to the zone. I am hoping that run3 will fix this problem but my guild is already shifting to using shadow knights to pull on difficult mobs, their new spells and our nerf makes them better at it.



If the only role for non ubber monks is to be a damage dealer, then verant needs to balance things by making monks number one in damage dealing. Of course, even if they do this, I will probably not be playing my monk much any more because my lifestyle doesn't allow me to waste 2-3 hours before I even start playing because I am looking for a group. Many times I only have an hour or so total to play. This is why I made a monk in the first place. However, I do not feel like starting over either, so in truth I do not know what I am going to do.




Clawr 54th Monk
Inspect Me (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=364988&resize=true)


Bomar 54th Druid

Clan of Unity

Karana Server

</p>

[ssyxz]

My results, from fighting Iksar Slaves, AC 1077, about 2400 hp.

<pre>
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Average Min Max Miss % Dodge % Riposte % Block %
Before 56.91 26 117 42.59 5.60 3.72 14.49
After 62.71 26 117 41.25 5.32 4.00 14.98
</pre>



The variations in all the %'s are well within error for the testing.



Conclusion: Damage per hit went up about 10%, avoidance didn't change.






<center>[b]Ssyxz
60 Iksar Grandmaster
Magelo (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=178226)</b</center></p>

Really helps when your posting a fight to list the number of attacks on you... but lets keep discussing.


Cuthul Paindancer

Master of the Path of Pain(Rodcet Nife)

Warlords of Wrath


Cuthul's Moderately Ok Gear (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=329174)


Culthul's Little Girl (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=182753)




" I've put up with being subpar damage wise because I was a fucking truck...now I'm just a little midget in a jeep with a pellet gun." --Sarthis</p>

[ssyxz]

Before and after is about 6000 attacks each, counting only the slash attacks made.






<center>[b]Ssyxz
60 Iksar Grandmaster
Magelo (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=178226)</b</center></p>

[Kurrlee]

After continuing to fight in the exact same area (Kedge Keep)as pre-nerf here are my results (again no parsings).



I had a hunting cycle that would start will 3 mobs (static spawns) in one area (area 1) then move to another area (area 2) with 3 wanderers and 4 statics. One of the static spawns in Area 2 could spawn a high level dark blue mob.



I use both throwing and proximity to pull.



Pre-Nerf:

On a cycle with lots of light blues I could get back to Area 1 and be ready to fight as the first spawn was reappearing. I could solo 2 lite blues at once. A dark blue and a light blue would usually (but not always) have me FD off the second. 2 dark blue MoBs I would kill the first and would have to FD off the second.



Post Nerf:

Not able to get back to Area 1 before they respawn without skipping spawns in Area 2. Usually (but not always) have to FD off the 2nd of 2 light blue mobs. A dark blue and a light blue I have to FD off the 2nd. With 2 dark blue mobs I cannot kill the 1st.



This would again be consistant with a 10% increase in damage during the fight. This does NOT account for the increase in damage during the pull.



The biggest change is in pulling. Get 2 dark blue mobs beating on me from behind and I occassionlly have to FD before getting back to camp. Getting that one high level dark blue MoB beating on me from behind, more often than not it is a couple of ...steps...stokes...whatever and I have to FD.



So if it is possible for VI to change the way mitigation or avoidence works from behind...I would be satisfied. Not necessarily happy, but at least be less inclined to quit and might even consider purchasing PoP (at the moment there is no way in hell I'm buying the expansion even if I do not quit).



So anyone got any parses illustrating the increase in damage we are taking on the pulls?


Kurrlee

Shackle Of Tynnonium</p>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Our mitigation has been DECIMATED. Formal deffinition of the word here, IE reduced by 10%. Ultimately we see a lot more max hits now, but over time it balances out to about 10% more damage per hit. This seems consistant across levels and the range from ghetto to uber.<hr></blockquote>



"Consistent" implies that those with uber gear are experiencing about the same increase in damage taken as those with mediocre gear or below average gear. This is NOT what I have seen reported elsewhere or seen in game. From everything I've seen/read, those with uber gear 'don't feel nerfed at all' or 'barely notice a difference'. Those with less than uber gear feel the pain; the further below uber, the worse the nerf.



In other words, the nerf completely missed the mark. Or perhaps the true mark was something other than what was stated.



<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Our avoidance has been increaced. Harder to pin down a percentage here but most reports are consistant in seeing a higher percentage of misses. Naturally this reduces the number of blocks, dodges, and ripostes and there are slightly less hits for those skills to work with.<hr></blockquote>



I personally haven't noticed this, nor seen any parses to support it, and - most damning of all - Verant never said it. If they had increased mitigation they would've specifically said so in order to draw away some of the PR heat they have obviously been taking.



<blockquote>Quote:<hr> OVER TIME, it seems our DPS taken is more or less the same.<hr></blockquote>



The note to the Developer's Corner said specifically that they wanted Monks to be taking more damage.



In short, I think you have the wrong of it. Sorry Cuthul.





--

Stonetooth Sleestak

60 Iksar Monk

Druzzil Ro




</p>