My evaluation of the change: post study

I got in last night and experimented with the new change.

Level 50 monk. I two-box with a level 47 shaman.



First thing: My AC. It might have dropped 10 points, I really cant tell. I'm used to seeing it at about 950 or so and now it's 944. Then again, I'm usually a weight point or two over. I'll say it dropped 15 points just to be safe.

Not that big of a deal. So I'll just make sure I'm below the weight AC limit.



Second thing: Started pulling and fighting a camp of several monsters.



Before this change, I had pulled about 300 times or more from this camp. I knew it well. I knew exactly what to expect.



I had to look pretty hard to even see any difference at all. For the first 10 minutes, I really saw no difference. There may have been a 5 percent difference, it was very hard to tell.



At this camp I estimate that the monsters are between level 38 and 41. Now when I pulled a level 41 monster, he kind of hurt. Not really any more then usual though. I watched my health bar and the punches getting put on me. Didn't really see that much of a difference (sometimes a very slight difference). Not really a regular difference.



After pulling and trying another 60 monsters post-change, my evaluation is this:



On monsters closer to your level in a given area, you might notice a difference. I noticed a *slight* difference on the stronger monsters from this camp. Basically no difference from the mid to lower level ones from this camp.



The difference, when even noticed at all, was very slight. I'm talking 5 to 7 percent. I had to really look for it, otherwise I wouldn't have seen it.



I used the same buffs, same pulling, same everything as I had been doing before the patch. No change at all in my methods.



Uber nerf? Hardly. A difference? Well yeah, some sort of difference.


</p>

I'd hazard a guess that what you're seeing is pretty standard from what I've heard and experienced myself. It only appears that major differences can be seen on things that were borderline in difficulty (as in, if it was hard to begin with it might now be out of reach, whereas something that was easy probably still is--though not *as* easy).



Daishan

Grandmaster

Zeb


</p>

Doing low blues with a shaman to slow, you are bound to see little difference.

On a pull with a couple of higher level mobs not yet slower, that's where you might see a difference.


</p>

lvl 32 monk here, non uber gear, and decent weapons. My findings last night playing are almost identical to above, not much change, I do see max hits more often though against mobs closer to even con.


</p>

I have not parsed anything and don't plan to...but I'm taking what seems to be 10-15% more damage. This is at level 60 soloing sebilis mobs.



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Soloing at level 60 on blue mobs? Someone else in some other thread said they were soloing two blues at once in CoM before this change, and cant now.



MY god, soloing two blues at once? I haven't been able to solo a dark blue in at least 10 levels, unless it was a low dark blue. But two at once? What kind of uber gear are you guys using?



I'm sorry, but a monk saying they can't solo two dark blues at once any more in CoM isn't really winning my sympathy....and I'm a monk! But I certainly couldnt solo even two low dark blues at my level. When I was 15 or 20, maybe. But not now, not even just before this change.



It's not effective to fight two at once anyway.


</p>

level 60 monk:

velk lab:

blizzard and below: you are fine. solo away

shards and above: you are swiss cheese. dont try it without mend and fd up

dogs and up or multitanking: hahahah make sure there is a 56 resser in zone<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">




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What is multitanking?


</p>

what is the order of spider difficulty (and levels) in VL?


</p>

Fungi, 36% or better Haste, and a T-Staff on an Iksar Monk in NOT 'average'/typical gear for most Monks. As a Human Monk we REALLY got shafted as I think VI believes there aren't too many of us left.



In my experience last might (in CT) I was taking 30% more damage on pulls, and being smacked around like a paper doll. I personally think I have above average gear for my Monk (AC 1100 - 1112 with Epic effect, ATK 1080 - 1133 with Epic effect HPs 2500 unbuffed (approx. 3700 with Ageo).



Pulling? Ha, on one split pull I came back with 1/2 bubble and the Cleric just managed to get a heal off. They feel we need to be dropped below Plate mitigation, fine, I can see that, BUT, I felt like a meleeing Druid, and USELESS on pulling. The mitigation change is too great atm (imo).



My Monk's been the one and only character (and Main) since Nov. 1999. I worked HARD to attain or get the PP for evry piece of equipment on me. I was one who HATED the change to being a more equipment dependant class post-Kunark; but adjusted because then Abashi was saying it was 'good for the game, and no one's complaining'.



My question is: Monks were only NON equipment dependant for about 12 months (Kunark appeared in April 2000). Now, 2 and 1/2 years later, VI spouts about how they were wrong and 'made a mistake regarding Monks'; (even though Alan said (in response to other Classes concerns just before SoL went live a year ago): 'We think Monks are right where they should be.'



Again, this begs the question: 'Do ANY of the programmmers on the Dev Team TRUELY bother to actually play thge game the way we do anymore?'



Also, I agree that SOME more definite statement needs to be made about the actual level of the mitigation nerf (some actual NUMBERS VI, such as the Wizards and Mages received regarding their Nerfs, and the Warriors, SK, etc. received on their enhacements.



I think it just goes to show that NO ONE at VI has ever played a Monk recently; OR that they now wish they could just remove the Class from the game.



2.5 years to notice what they NOW perceive as a GLARING imbalance (and even despite comments in the last year to the contrary?).



Yep, sounds to me like the Dev Team really does understand it's own game, the concept of Customer Service, and REALLY earns their paycheck.



I think in addition to e-mailing Alan, people should also e-mail Smed if his address is still availabe. He also should be made aware how people feel at the Dev Team's level of customer interaction.



A further comment from VI needs to be made to the Monk playerbase (imo).


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Chilau SwiftFist

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</td></tr></table></center></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/uchilauswiftfist.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Chilau SwiftFist</A>* http://www.catplex.org/chilau/flag.gif at: 10/17/02 10:36:12 am

seems that mnks with > 1200 ac give or take are not experiencing much diffrence.



myself at about 980 got smacked arround like eurkle in a sex pistols moshpit.

i got hit so much harder in me with no noticeable ammount of increesed avoidance.




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10.01.02 Molt says ciao. Take it easy bro...........10.08.02 Fix Warriors?? nah, just nerf tha Monk! (dumb ass's)
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Heh. Erkle at a mosh pit. I'll have to remember that one.


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[Ugle]

From what I'm hearing the results are really varying. I've been bringing up a Shaman on my other comp to replace my BL, so this is the first week that I've hunted with him in SolB so I can't really compare pre/post patch because his level is changing as well. Many of the Monks I talked to L48-53 were just about ready to quit, and most had /feedbacked.



54 Monk here, Epic Fists, no Fungi/T-Staff. Epic/SoS buffed 1101 AC, 2200 HP. With the Shammy buffs around 1150 ATK, and add another hundred HP or so.



Got bored in SolB so I decided to try some Imps. For some screwy reason earlier this week Kobolds were whacking me, LDC's were just about smooshing me (and remember this isn't solo, this is with a Shammie backup, albeit a low 40's one), and the one time I tried to get an Imp, eh. So post patch how did I do against Imps? Much better then I had expected. In fact I would almost say I was taking less damage then I used to against them, but the last time I fought them I only had 30% slow BUT had a BL pet adding damage.



So I won't say that this is a good patch in any ways, too many people saying that they are getting slaughtered. What I am saying is that some Monks in some situations might not be noticing any difference. Others do. That might be why some Monks are saying this is killing us, and others saying to quit whining.


</p>

My experiences are somewhat similar to Chilau's...you can see my magelo in the sig, but basically, I'm level 60 and have similar stats to Chilau (AC ~ 1100, hp's mid-2000's, etc.).



I've spent the last week in Droga, farming faction for Chardok. I've killed hundreds and hundreds of green-con goblins and I know what I can kill, how many, etc. and usually have a good idea on how I'll do. The only real variable is if I'm pulling lots of mosstroopers or depradators (SK's with Harm touch) in which case I'll take quite a bit more damage than normal.



Anyway, I noticed two things. One was that these little greenies were hurting me worse than before. I didn't parse anything, before or after, partly because I don't know how to, but I've spent so many hours down there, doing the same damn thing over and over and over, that I have a pretty good idea that I was indeed affected by this patch. Negatively so.



The other thing I noticed was agro. I'm drawing a helluva lot more of it now. I could run through some gobbies without drawing agro at times. Last night I couldn't. I was getting agro from a lot more goblins from a lot farther away. I admit that I'm a little surprised that I haven't seen any other comments on altered agro. I suppose it could be possible that I had a bad string of higher level gobbies throughout the dungeon that were agroing on me, but I did catch, at the end of the night, some snippets in guildchat about a failed Hate raid that the rest of my guildmates went through. They said that the agro up in Hate was totally bizarre and made their attempt just at breaking the zone hell.



Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing some parsed data and hearing feedback. I didn't like what I saw, personally, and I'm still trying to understand VI's line of thinking for how they 'fix' these perceived problems. I believe they went about it all the wrong way and the nerfs (all of them) aren't solutions for the overall health of the game but simply quick, lazy fixes that don't address the root of the problems. I'm not writing letters or threatening anyone, but if they've gimped me hard enough, I'll quit, no questions asked. I pay them money and I expect my money to buy some fun not this kind of nonsense (oh yeah, btw, my 2nd toon is a 56 mage, my first character ever, whom I quit long ago because they gimped that class hard enough - now they're taking shots at my monk /sigh)...


Benzai Hongkongfooey


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[silenzhandz]

I have approx 1250 ac, pulled fully popped NToV last night, lots of flurries and named drakes. I *did* see a difference, but not one that disabled my pulling ability.

Went on to do a deep crawl afterwards where I was tanking, cleric noticed a difference in how much she was healing me, I am *guessing* around 15% extra damage.


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</p>

34 monk with all the normal twink stuff. No fungi, no 36% haste. Did the same camp with my 40 cleric friend and I didn't notice much of a difference. Some mobs hit me harder, some hit me less. In either case the difference was not significant over time. Didn't require a lot more healing, down time was slightly more but not unbareable. Still killed as fast as before, exp per hour was slightly less due to a little more down time.


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My own parsing while soloing Katta guards is there is a 10-15% difference in our mitigation. I have self buffed 1252AC and almost 2800HP using Primal Fistwraps / Fist of Lightning. I actually end up soloing faster now because I took the 3 points from regen and put them into first aid.




Baron Moltenfist Talestrike (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=80373)</p>

I was soloing in Velks yesterday .. non-uber monk ... 60 / Tstaff / Fungi / COF / Epic / SoS (standard issue monk-uniform) .. was killing all but named spiders ok..lost between 1 bub and 4 in the fights.. AC is 1135 or so and HPs are 2460 or so ... I did notice that I took the big damage on 1hbs..they are basically slightly more nerfed due to the fact that ripostes hurt more. Was almost not worth trying to proc my SoS rather than just sticking to my TStaff.





Feel really bad for the monks in my guild (0 epics, 0 fungi, 0 tstaffs, 27-31% haste max ... not sure what I can do other than badger Verant's ass or I'm going to be pretty lonely soon <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">



Of course helping them get their epics would also be a good thing to do.. wonder if I could MT the monk epic mobs now?



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ANYONE can solo velk's spiders, even rogues. They really aren't a good test of soloability. They hit for like 90. I went from being able to solo 4 low blue sarnaks in 'dok on one health bar to having to mend and stonestance on every fight.



I have 1175 AC, 3500hps, 8 pt dmg shield self buffed.


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60 Iksar Grandmaster<a> </a><a>Celestial Fist - Whistling Fist of Thule </a></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/uarayalebon.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Araya LeBon</A> at: 10/17/02 11:11:05 am

One thing you all missing. Please state where you are fighting and what your ac is.



Remember the old world critters in some examples are based on uber acs being around 800. If you have 1100 ac and mid 50s of course you not going to notice a difference. Not to mention the ungodly damage output you have against these old world critters. When bronze was the main stay armor and a yak was totally uber. And monks went at it with their fist no weapons and surely no epics. The best haste they had was a fbss. And the rare monk with a cof or rbb.



Please try something in ME or Akheva. See if these critter that are based on 1200 being the soft cap for ac and up to lvl 60 pcs beating on them. How does your defense stack up against those critters that are made for you much higher acs and damage output. If there still no difference then I would say that the nerf is nothing to complain about. But if you get smacked around be these new critters, then monks are in for a would of hurt unless you really uber.


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Uh.....so if they give you dark blue exp, then why not solo them instead? Seems to me if monster A is a lot harder for me then monster B, and both are dark blue to me, then I'll be fighting monster B k thx.



I dunno why people go fight some version of a "giant" with lots of hp, or a caster, or something else and then complain they cant solo it. Suprise, I cant solo a dark blue giant, but I can solo other dark blues. Think I'm gonna keep trying the giant?



So the lesson learned is, a monster he can get exp from that "anyone can solo". good! I see nothing wrong there. A test of soloability is the smarts to know where to go solo, not just the color of the mob's con.


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Well, all I'm saying is this: last night there were 2 epic monk corpses in Velks on Xegony, on my first spider, mine was added (fucking lame dot). I don't recall ever seeing a monks corpse there before, guess its only for the other melee classes to solo there now.




</p>

"A test of soloability is the smarts to know where to go solo, not just the color of the mob's con"



Yea...it takes a great feat of logic to realize that VL is 1 of 3 zones in the game where you aren't getting the crap kicked out of you regularly.



Sorry, before the nerf I was saying the same thing about the VL/FG people while I was tearing up mobs in Chardok/HS/DN/SG for way better XP...nice how the role is suddenly reversed due to the swing of the bat. Those that had the balls to stay out of the gimp circuit are now forced back into it.



Thanks VI.


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60 Iksar Grandmaster<a> </a><a>Celestial Fist - Whistling Fist of Thule </a></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/uarayalebon.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Araya LeBon</A> at: 10/17/02 11:34:53 am

lvl 60 monk here ~ pretty well equiped.. about 5200 hps fully buffed.. 1400 ac



Pre-patch could tank ssra mobs pretty well, after patch, i noticed i got hit alot harder.. much more 200+ hits, whereas before i would get hit for a lotta 150's.. still no prob tanking ssra mobs tho.. i really think this hurt the lower lvl and non-uber monks more than well geared monks..






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