My post-nerf thoughts... *Some log results shown*

Well considering I do most of my fighting duo in Fungus Grove with my GF's 60 Bard, I wasnt worried about the patch as much as most people. However I did go ahead and solo (actualy I had her 40something cleric handy for heals) shrooms for about 3-4 hours in FG pre-nerf recently and logged all the kills. (15 kills two different instances) In any case, pre-nerf I couldnt solo a shroom about 70% of the time because they simply shroomed me too much (even with DR at 135) even though melee damage wasnt too bad from them. Post nerf the damage didnt seem much different at first, except I did notice a lot fewer hits but for a lot more damage. All in all it didnt seem to change how I could kill a shroom as it took about the same amount of time and I took about the same amount of damage overall. (I'll be verifying this once I correct and parse the post-nerf logs, again 30 total kills) None the less, some mobs may be harder now than others while some could very well be easier than others.



On a side note, I finished CA3 today after doing a number of shrooms (after first 15 kills I went ahead and trained CA3 and divided the log so I can parse the before/after CA3 seperatly) and it seems to help a good bit as well, but I still took a lot of damage from the Shriekers Curse or whatever it is that "shrooms" you for 200dd so often. (That caused the majority of the damage I took.)



In any case, some see a grim and bleak outlook on the changes, I dont seem to find it THAT bad... At least not yet.


Brother Lizzik : 60 Monk : Grandmaster with Turbo Fists!


http://www.clubsi.com/photos/misc/lizzik_banner_new.jpg</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ulizzik.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Lizzik</A> at: 10/16/02 7:26:46 pm

[Byuf]

Bad mobs to test on.



Shrooms cast a lot instead of meleeing. This is why they're such good exp, cuz they do no real damage with all their casting. But since their melee was already so insignificant, they're a bad mob to test melee results against.



(BTW 155 DR and I resist something like 24 / 25 casts of slow/stun [but not their Proc] even after resist changes)



Grandmaster, The Rathe




</p>

True they dont melee much, however they are something Monks solo a good deal, which is why I decided to test these. (The data I collected shows how the soloing shrooms may be changed by the "nerf")



I'll be posting my log results later. Thankfully VI fixed the double logging problem with this patch.


Brother Lizzik : 60 Monk : Grandmaster with Turbo Fists!


http://www.clubsi.com/photos/misc/lizzik_banner_new.jpg</p>

[Byuf]

Yep *grin* they're good mobs to know we can still solo.... just reminding you that they're bad mobs to try to parse to determine the actual changes in our mitigation. IE: One in three shrooms is a melee magnet, the rest spend most of their time casting (just making a generalization) you'll get vastly skewed results compared to simple KC, Seb, or Velks mobs that just straight up melee you.



What we really want if we want to know exactly how the changes worked is parses of various hp/ac/level monks vs mobs they used to fight (That are mainly melee) that we know the levels of. Etc etc. =)



Not a bad thing to parse, just a bad target if you want to know what the real math change is in the mitigation formula.



Grandmaster, The Rathe




</p>

Average hit will tell the truth about the mitigation, shrooms are an excellent choice.


<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=3528">
Walkabout, Grandmaster Gecko</a>

The Companions (http://www.eqcompanions.com)

The Tribunal (http://www.thetribunal.org/)


Am I balanced yet ?</p>

Well I need to upload the visual data, but it clearly shows the shrooms hit for max at least 2x more often now and hit for min about 33% less. Simply put, they hit harder more often, though their DPS isnt raised by much due to whatever they may have changed.


Brother Lizzik : 60 Monk : Grandmaster with Turbo Fists!


http://www.clubsi.com/photos/misc/lizzik_banner_new.jpg</p>

[Tzaj]

Ive added my thoughts to this rather than start a new topic.



Prior and after to the patch I was multiboxing against a group of mobs, which either are or are rather close to being the same level. They are both blue to a level 60 and 52 is the best I can say about them. They are 100% resistant to all procs and spells, and cast no spells of their own, or are spell buffed by other creatures. All of my findings are visual based on several hours watching the being hit numbers as I do not use a parser.



Using exactly the same buffs both times I can say the mobs generally hit me for 10 points extra damage in the minimum and maximum they did pre patch. I cannot confirm if they hit me any more or any less than before, but pre patch I would lose 1 to 2 red before the kill, and after the patch between 2 and 4 reds of health.



The patch to me has weakened the monk class as a stand up tank as Verant intended. In a group this will mean more mana will be used in healing the monk. I feel I might consider even more the limit the amount of mobs I pull or their top/bottom damage they can do before I bring them home to camp, but I do feel however it may still be possible to do some zones as the main assist as I used to. Although I wasn’t solo as such, I can say this patch certainly has made I feel solo experience a great deal harder. If I wasn’t multiboxing I think I would be forced to take on easier spawns and the knock on effect will be levelling as an even longer process.




http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=48973</p>

I don't have too much to add, but I fought glacier yetis in DL to test the waters adter the patch, and it *SEEMS* that avoidance is indeed up, but when I did get hit, I was smacked around like a rebellious ho at a pimp conference. I don't know what to think yet, I just have to play around more....but overall, I don't like it so far.


-= Leakin Somestuff =- (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=81279)

47th Leaking Monk

</p>

Here is a good visual representation of the damage changes... Its quite noticeable as you can well see. The top is the "Before Nerf" damage from 15 shrooms in FG. Both before and after tests were done buffed with only Resist Disease, Greater Shielding (self buff) and Symbol of Pinzarn? (mid level cleric symbol for extra HP since I was healing myself with only a low 40's cleric) Also, one thing of intrest here is I trained CA3 for the after-nerf tests (had only CA2 on the before-nerf tests).



The before-nerf results. (The red line indicates 10 hits for that amount of damage since the scales are displayed slightly differently)

http://www.clubsi.com/siracer/before_nerf.gif



And here is the after-nerf results. (Again, the red line indicates 10 hits for that amount of damage)

http://www.clubsi.com/siracer/after_nerf.gif



As you can see, I took a LOT more hits for full damage (126hp) and a LOT less hits for min damage (35hp) after the nerf. (Roughly 85 min hits before, about 50 after. Almost the same change but the other way around for max damage.)


Brother Lizzik : 60 Monk : Grandmaster with Turbo Fists!


http://www.clubsi.com/photos/misc/lizzik_banner_new.jpg</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ulizzik.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Lizzik</A> at: 10/16/02 7:27:39 pm

[sunol]

After Patch:



Logged in and Buffed up



lvl 59 iksar

epic / SoS

3006HP / 1148AC / 1087 ATK (149pure AC from equipment)

with epic AC went to 1160 and ATK to 1141



Same level mobs - went down faster in my opinion. Every Fight started at full health did not require Mend or Stone stance. I felt i got hit harder for weird numbers than before but i don't feel i got hit as much. like 108 and 112 instead of mid 30's, 97 and 117 which seemed the normal for the mobs befoe the patch. So to me, yeah if you are tanking mobs that hit for way more, you won't last as long. I would like to see someone fighting in Cazic Thule. Without slow, those guys turn you to mince meat quick. Only had 30 minutes before i had to log. Sorry the log file is at home. will try to post the results using Yalp output


<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=204375>Charlanne 53 Cleric (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=195700>Sunol)

www.azurelegion.com
</p>

[Byuf]

My impressions from a 5100 HP / 1280 AC / 155 DR (always buffed to around there when soloing) soloing in FG a lot...



noticable difference but not large. Sometimes 15 shrooms straight, sometimes only 2-3 then bind wound. Still no more than 1-2 min downtime. Acceptable for lazy soloing while studying (turn on attack go afk hit FK macro now and then) dunno about serious grinds.



As for raids, had no problems tanking in Akheva tonight, took damage a little faster but not enough to scream about. If anything taking the most damage from some ridiculous pingloss tonight. Unexplained, a lot of my guild suffers too.



Grandmaster, The Rathe


</p>

[imalwayshungry]

my impressions:



i sold my silver shiverback hide sash last night (at quite a profit, thanks merri!) to help fund a tstaff, which i bought this afternoon...seeing as i had no haste items (read: no spell, song, or -item- haste), i was wary to try out the new tstaff on any mobs, afraid that id get pwned. After a few minutes of wussiness though, i figured whatthehell, might as well...so's i wander down to Dawnshroud peaks to try my hand on a few dark blue stonegrabbers, and to my surprise i can solo them with ease.



needless to say, i was shocked...xp'ing with no haste is aenemtha(sp?) to me, w/o even a fbss im doing ~20% less damage then i usually would...and i was still able to solo the dark blues and laugh at the occasional wolf add.



i havent had a chance to try this out on any dl/kc mobs yet, but the stonegrabbers have certainly given me hope =)



Wrapping up: I have under 1k ac, under 1.9khp, and -no- haste, i was able to solo dark blues in Dawnshroud with no problems.



Your mileage may vary.


[54 Diciple]Halabut Fistfillet (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=371532)(Human) -- The Rathe
</p>

[Junu Peeth]

Lizzik, osrry to be a pain in the butt and ask you to do extra work. Could you click on the '%' box and upload that image file instead?


Junu Peeth (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=157667), Grandmaster Human Monk on Mithaniel Marr

"I read the 1200+ monk nerf thread and lived!" (Got the T-Shirt too)</p>

I parsed a 14% increase in an albeit fairly short sample of fights with the same mobs before and post patch.



That was not at 60. I'm wondering if that's the case across the board.


</p>

After a full night in Vex Thal as well as spending a few hours soloing (mostly in FG) ... this is what Ive found.



-----------------------------------------------------



1 - High lvl soloability has only been marginally affected. Those with high end game equiptment have not really been effected much at all. For example on a 10 FG shroom run where I was running almost full health b4 the patch, with no down time and simply constantly pulling as 1 died, it seems to be about the same now. No down time ending 94-100% health at the end of the runs.



On the other hand a monk lvl 60 with 100+aa not in high-end equiptment fighitng next to me had a very hard time soling single shrooms that he normally was able to, ending at 50% health.



-----------------------------------------------------



2 - High lvl raid situations. Spending the night in Vex Thal fighting I did notice that mitigation was lower and while b4 the nerf I would have no problem tanking until the warrior's taunt pulled it off me, tonight I tended to FD earlier and then get back up. We didnt have a healer in our group the whole night and even with 1500 AEs I didnt die once, while almost always getting agro at least once during each fight. I also tanked a few times when we had more then a few non-mezzables come in. If I had had a healer in our group I prolly wouldnt have FD'd at all during the fighting, except on the named NPCs (where it's simply bad to agro, for the guilds sake)



I was in a fighting group and not the pull group tonight. Our pullers didnt die any more then normal, although it WAS obvious that tactics were adjusted to make up for the mitigation decrease. More tags were made vs single monk pulling.



-----------------------------------------------------



In conclusion ... Mitigation has been adjusted down and it's obvious in all content. The mid-level and non-uber guild monks have been hit, by FAR the hardest on this latest patch. As I mentioned b4 no high end content guild purposely uses monks to tank, and as such not much has changed in the high end content for monks, other then you may end up FDing a lil more then normal. The real issues come with the mid-lvl monks who may have created the character with the thought as a soling class now being unable to to so anymore. It would be like creating a Mage or Necro, because you liked the ability to solo, and then having thier soloability removed.



For the game's long term viability, an adjustment was needed to align some of the mitigation issues to better fit the "big picture" of melee class balancing. Although I dont like the more dramatic effect that it has had on the mid-level and non-uber guild monk community, I do think it may allow for a better game in the long run.



I sort of felt like my old self .. sneaking in doing some major damage, then when I got to agro .. FDing off a bit or deciding to take some heat b4 backing out (FD) and then stepping back up to the plate .. felt a lil more RP tonight then I have in a while 8-)


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</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/uirontaail.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Irontaail</A> at: 10/16/02 11:39:16 pm

[Fopoodzo]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The mid-level and non-uber guild monks have been hit, by FAR the hardest on this latest patch. As I mentioned b4 no high end content guild purposely uses monks to tank, and as such not much has changed in the high end content for monks, other then you may end up FDing a lil more then normal. The real issues come with the mid-lvl monks who may have created the character with the thought as a soling class now being unable to to so anymore. It would be like creating a Mage or Necro, because you liked the ability to solo, and then having thier soloability removed. <hr></blockquote>





Yup. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">




</p>

Junu, here is the same statistics just with the % showing and enlarged for easier reading.



Before:

http://www.clubsi.com/siracer/before_nerf2.gif



After:

http://www.clubsi.com/siracer/after_nerf2.gif


Brother Lizzik : 60 Monk : Grandmaster with Turbo Fists!


http://www.clubsi.com/photos/misc/lizzik_banner_new.jpg</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/ulizzik.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Lizzik</A> at: 10/17/02 9:46:58 am