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Chumpp01
04-21-2013, 08:20 PM
anyone care to comment on how monks are doing in raid parses with the new disc/AAs vs other classes .

Maereax
04-21-2013, 08:51 PM
http://dayofthejedi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/27.jpg

Chumpp01
04-21-2013, 09:09 PM
how is it a trap ?

Rasputyn
04-21-2013, 09:40 PM
Chumpp01 with 2 posts seems legit.

I parse almost 5k dps after the new RoF AA.

sensei savager
04-21-2013, 10:14 PM
we are so underpowered

Qulas
04-21-2013, 10:15 PM
Strangely enough, monk parses seem to have actually gone down overall after the SoF launch.

tanecho
04-21-2013, 10:35 PM
I'm still getting trashed by paladins.

Chumpp01
04-21-2013, 10:39 PM
Strangely enough, monk parses seem to have actually gone down overall after the SoF launch.

thats what i was seing tonight on are raids as well just wanted to see how others were doing

Aggememnon
04-22-2013, 06:07 AM
I think burn is now competitive with other melee if heel is up. As it should be. Melee as a whole though are absolutely not competitive with caster dps though - burn or sustained ...

Yyevil
04-22-2013, 10:02 AM
http://dayofthejedi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/27.jpg

Thanks Admiral!

Maereax
04-22-2013, 10:31 AM
I'm still getting trashed by paladins.

Hahaha, this guy!

Gorkeyah
04-22-2013, 11:06 AM
I haven't had a good burn yet. Agro seemed to be weird yesterday (my first raiding since the changes). For instance, in crystal caverns there was a pally tanking and my agro meter would read in the teens somewhere, then it would jump to 100% then go back to the teens. Agro seemed to ping pong around more (not just me) and in general our tanks seemed to be having more trouble holding agro.

As a result, I was using my de-agro macro a lot, and it seems to be less reliable now that I have a bunch of keybindings that I'm spamming. In other words, it doesn't always FD me, or I FD but don't stand up, or I stand back up, but don't re-autoattack. All this screws with my dps when using something like heel especially which requires you to spam FK fast to make use of it.

Bottom line is I didn't set any new dps records, but on some long fights (which most of rof is heh) I did compete better with other long fight dps like necros and beasts.

Aggememnon
04-22-2013, 11:33 AM
If you compete with necro, then they just not showing you their parses ;p
For us, I just see wiz/necro pretty much owning every parse.

Zzlaarr
04-22-2013, 12:29 PM
If you compete with necro, then they just not showing you their parses ;p
For us, I just see wiz/necro pretty much owning every parse.
dito

brogett
04-22-2013, 12:46 PM
Able to burn for 200k? Able to sustain 130k for 5 min? If no, then you're not "competitive" with the casters ;-)

In all seriousness, monks are in a strange situation: other melee are jealous as they see monks ahead or comparable while being far more sturdy and with fewer positioning limitations, but I'm not going to complain about overpowered monks as it misses the point a mile - monks aren't at all overpowered, it's just that they're "less underpowered" than some others!

IMO monk, berserker and rogue all need to be in agreement with this one instead of the usual infighting. The "MeleeQuest" tag is getting beyond a joke when it's usually applied to us from the two classes that are head and shoulders above everyone else. We can't (and shouldn't) ask for nerfs, but parse data is invaluable when pushing for class improvements.

Gorkeyah
04-22-2013, 12:53 PM
If you compete with necro, then they just not showing you their parses ;p
For us, I just see wiz/necro pretty much owning every parse.

I didn't say that exactly. I said I compete better with them. :) Which is to say, I had good dps for melee on a long parse.

Any range dps is tricky for melee to parse, but based on the times necros have linked their parses on long fights, they didn't have ridiculous dps. I want to say... 60k ish or maybe 80k? I dunno...

Gorkeyah
04-22-2013, 01:05 PM
Able to burn for 200k? Able to sustain 130k for 5 min? If no, then you're not "competitive" with the casters ;-)

In all seriousness, monks are in a strange situation: other melee are jealous as they see monks ahead or comparable while being far more sturdy and with fewer positioning limitations, but I'm not going to complain about overpowered monks as it misses the point a mile - monks aren't at all overpowered, it's just that they're "less underpowered" than some others!

IMO monk, berserker and rogue all need to be in agreement with this one instead of the usual infighting. The "MeleeQuest" tag is getting beyond a joke when it's usually applied to us from the two classes that are head and shoulders above everyone else. We can't (and shouldn't) ask for nerfs, but parse data is invaluable when pushing for class improvements.

I've never seen anyone hit 200k in the wild. (unless you count stupid short fights where lucky procs and hits on group content kill an old mob in 1 round. heh) I rarely see anyone parsing over 100k during a fight, and that eventually drops as the fight wears on. The highest parse I've ever witnessed was a zerker on a low level guild hall parse dummy with discs that don't end, etc, and that was about 160k. In the wild, the same zerker might show up in the 90-100 area at the start of the fight, but I've never seen higher than that.

Now, if I look at the graph for dps, I can see even my own dps in the low 100's pre-dps changes, but because of the way the parser works, and the way dps ramps up, the running average never quite looks that good.

Parsing is funky business for a number of reasons. What one might do to have the highest dps on a parsing program, might not actually kill the target faster. In other words holding off starting until you have every adps going and no question as to the tank holding agro. To compare classes, you kind of need to do it in an artificial way like how we parse ourselves on test with locked buffs etc to get a true average instead of weird one-off's and lucky streaks.

One interesting way I compared my before/after dps is with how many mobs I can kill in warrens during a 30min lesson (generally doing a couple big pulls with discs, then just killing one after another with straight grind melee when discs are down). Doing basically the same thing I've always done, I used to kill about 110-120 mobs in 30min. Now I'm getting 170-180 mobs or so. I used to circle around the island area where all the crystal mobs are about 1.2 times, and now I can lap it 2+ times in 30min.

So... I have a pretty good feel for my sustained non-raid burn improvement from grinding and averaging a bunch of mobs together for trash and group content. It seems to be about 50-60% improvement over before. This is great, and a huge improvement, but it only catches us up to some other classes that were already doing that (e.g. beasts).

For a class like the necro, it's going to depend more on the content. I'll do better on a long series of short fights, I believe, than on a long single fight. (talking group mobs and grind dps) A wizard I would assume could do great on a series of short fights also. At least I trounce rogue mercs now. heh

For me personally, the jury is still out on raid burns as I haven't really had enough clean tries and I haven't quite worked out the kinks with how I do things now. But there are a few examples such as beating rogues on some long fights, but that doesn't mean I would be beat them on a burst fight either and it might be that we're close enough that the outcome would change fight to fight anyway.

tanecho
04-22-2013, 01:06 PM
Able to burn for 200k? Able to sustain 130k for 5 min? If no, then you're not "competitive" with the casters ;-)

In all seriousness, monks are in a strange situation: other melee are jealous as they see monks ahead or comparable while being far more sturdy and with fewer positioning limitations, but I'm not going to complain about overpowered monks as it misses the point a mile - monks aren't at all overpowered, it's just that they're "less underpowered" than some others!

IMO monk, berserker and rogue all need to be in agreement with this one instead of the usual infighting. The "MeleeQuest" tag is getting beyond a joke when it's usually applied to us from the two classes that are head and shoulders above everyone else. We can't (and shouldn't) ask for nerfs, but parse data is invaluable when pushing for class improvements.

I started calling it EverCast as soon as this expansion launched. :P

Sokon
04-22-2013, 04:16 PM
I easily parse over 100 k with heel during any fight that is less than 60 seconds. ie last 20% of cc mob, 2nd yelinak in kael.

terrorpalm will also parse over 100 k as well and have seen parses of monks at 150 k dps during similar duration fights

Comparitively though, I am still parsing in the top 10, with our top casters(1 wizard that is always #1 on parse) in the same positions they were before, except now I sometimes beat rogues and zerkers that were usually ahead of me. All in all there is another monk and myself that are typically in the top 5 of every parse.

No complaints here.

Gorkeyah
04-22-2013, 04:42 PM
What have you been running with heel on a long fight versus a short fight? There's things I would do differently if I knew most of the fight would be done by the time heel is done, but since that's not been the case, I reallly don't run much in particular with heel. I'll wait for shaman/bard stuff with it now, though. Before I just ran it as filler. heh

My sense is, for instance, it would still be better to use beast HH with terror, than to use it with heel then run terror with hopes for fists procs or lesser HH adps.

What you could do is run infussion/zanfi/2nd spire (i.e. speedfocus stuff) with heel, as another example, but then not have them for speedfocus if you use that later.

I guess what I'm asking is if people are seeing heel as the best if they make sure they run everything with it, or is it still best if it's got some subset of things because you've saved other stuff for other discs?

Aggememnon
04-23-2013, 08:43 AM
I entirely agree with Brog. (I'm not sure 'sturdiness' of monks should be a factored into any type of discussion since the 'role' we all play is exactly the same. Unless 'sturdiness' directly affected our dps.) Anyhow I do agree that melee classes need to forget for a moment their heated debates on who should be top burst/sustained, and press for an 'across the board' boost to melee to be on a par with caster dps. That is the far bigger gulf that exists compared to intra-melee dps.

Gorkeyah
04-23-2013, 11:06 AM
Speaking of sturdiness... I'm not sure I understand the new swift reflexes disc. It puts on a nearly 2 hour buff. The description says if you take a big hit, you can block some after it. Is there a hit limit on this or does it really last that long? Does it always block, or is it just a chance to block?

We've thought of it as something good for ramp, but why wouldn't it also be good for tanking a raid mob? The description makes it sound like it would be hard to be one rounded (e.g. take one 52k hit, but not others). That is all you really need with a raid mob is to not get one rounded.

This is why I assume there must be a hit limit on it or something. Why have a 5min refresh on a 1.x hour buff?

It's not exactly easy to test. heh

Nedrom
04-23-2013, 11:08 AM
I'm pretty happy with the DPS changes for monks, even at 95 with 2000 AA, the changes to 'existing' AA and the unlinking of Tiger Claw shows my dps has gone up nicely. Clearing Anguish is not as tedious now :)

Zzlaarr
04-23-2013, 11:19 AM
Speaking of sturdiness... I'm not sure I understand the new swift reflexes disc. It puts on a nearly 2 hour buff. The description says if you take a big hit, you can block some after it. Is there a hit limit on this or does it really last that long? Does it always block, or is it just a chance to block?

We've thought of it as something good for ramp, but why wouldn't it also be good for tanking a raid mob? The description makes it sound like it would be hard to be one rounded (e.g. take one 52k hit, but not others). That is all you really need with a raid mob is to not get one rounded.

This is why I assume there must be a hit limit on it or something. Why have a 5min refresh on a 1.x hour buff?

It's not exactly easy to test. heh
Think of it as a Rune type buff that only absorbs max. 3 hits/spells and only if >25k dmg per occurence.
Due to the long recast it's not very useful to tank raid mobs where each hit usually is >25k. The "Rune" will be gone after one round and I doubt you will survive for 5 mins till it's up again. ;)

What you can do is to precast it to have 2nd rune available during the fight.

Gorkeyah
04-23-2013, 11:38 AM
Think of it as a Rune type buff that only absorbs max. 3 hits/spells and only if >25k dmg per occurence.
Due to the long recast it's not very useful to tank raid mobs where each hit usually is >25k. The "Rune" will be gone after one round and I doubt you will survive for 5 mins till it's up again. ;)

What you can do is to precast it to have 2nd rune available during the fight.

Thanks. I figured there was something limiting it that wasn't in the description.

tanecho
04-23-2013, 09:36 PM
I think the issue at heart here is that each class should have its own pros and cons. Melee all share 2 very large cons right now. High dependence on support classes for DPS, and the ability to be killed pretty much instantly by AE rampage. I don't see any major cons for casters right now, mana seems infinite at this point in the game, and I can't recall any danger mechanic that targets ranged DPS disproportionately. So casters are at less risk for the same (or greater, as is the case currently) reward.

Yyevil
04-24-2013, 06:11 PM
I like Swift Reflexes to keep me in the game during mobs like Vyemm, Aaroynar and Vulak with large Wild Rampage. Will keep me from worrying about splatting while I'm trying to get my first couple of burns in.