View Full Version : Prepared to be stoned (in a bad way)

03-27-2013, 02:18 PM
I have been thinking about our DPS problem and I *think* it really has 2 facets: burns and long term sustained DPS. As an upper end raider, when we look at burns in the 180 seconds and less range, we suck. And as burn times drop down to the 90 seconds or shorter, we are laughable in where we place. But when you look at the super long (for EQ) fights, say 500 seconds or greater, I tend to do pretty well. Now as you all know I am very optimized for DPS, and I do try very hard to play well. So I am not talking just hitting auto attack and making a sandwich. For example, last night in NToV when the entire nights parses were combined, I was the in the to 3 for sustained DPS for the night (and I am still using VOA weapons). Now this is trash, named, everything we killed. The other monks on the raid did ok, but were not as far up the dps rankings. BUT when you look at those short burns, I looked like crap. On a sub 90 second burn you need to be breaking 120K dps to make the top 10, and I am not sure I have EVER broken 120. And the times I am close are on the 5 second burns where I popped a lucky crane kick into the numbers with our mods at max.

So why am I mentioning this. I am suspicious that we are slightly out of the bandwidth for the average raider. As in if you do not leverage the "broken" stacked effects of 7 cleave augs, you are in the 10-30% off of where I think a monk should be range. But on burns, we are like 200% off of where I think we should be.

The net I think I may be stoned for is that I think of this as 2 different problems that should be looked at and hopefully solved separately. Basically I think some minor tweaks like the stuff going on currently in Beta may solve nicely the bump to sustained DPS, but I do not think that what I personally know about in beta is going to solve the burn problem.

Your thoughts my monkly brethren?

03-27-2013, 02:26 PM
I parse similar to you Rten, when it comes to long term or complete night parses. If our short term dps is made any higher we will always be #1 for whole night parses, which will seem unfair to all other classes.

I am willing to accept where we are going to be with this shadows of fear dps upgrade, and where it will put us in comparison to everyone in both short and long term parses. Increasing our short term dps anymore than they are going to do will give people a lot of room to bitch about our dps.

03-27-2013, 02:54 PM
Many of the changes made are going to up our dps everywhere. Since we didn't get a new burn disc or an upgrade to a burn disc (read short term dps), everything we're getting helps both.

Something like eye of storm, which was a new disc and therefore can't be run with other discs, didn't help our burns since it's not as strong as what we already had. It only helped our sustained because it was another thing to run when other things are down.

But the wu's changes, punch mastery changes, accuracy, synergy timer reduction, kick procs... all that helps everything both short and long.

btw, you have sub 90s fights NToV dragons?

P.S. I haven't parsed to try to quantify any of these changes, but they certainly don't hurt us. heh

03-27-2013, 03:44 PM
LOL @Gorkeyah, not even close on NToV dragons. I was pulling my sub 90Second stuff off other mobs/events. And some of the events just do not bear discussion... yes Xorbb 3 DPS discussions on Mino would be silly to have (I am thinking my Rabbit out DPS' me).

I agree that the changes on Beta do look promising, and anything that effects standard DPS will of course have an impact on Burn DPS. I just wish we had a way to be more burn competitive too. But to be fair maybe I need to look more at how the existing changes effect burns, and of course look at how that stacks us with other classes. I know I am generalizing horribly, but I feel like in the past we have looked at upgrades to our DPS that corrected older imbalances without taking into account that while we got caught up to old numbers, other classes were getting their next bumps... and voila, we were back where we started. I am crossing my fingers that we are not looking at this with the new expansion.

@Sokon I do wonder if the people who are parsing similar to us all have taken advantage of cleave stacking. We have a couple monks in my guild that went traditional armor, and routinely do not parse well. I am now wondering if it is more about the cleave benefit and less about them using sub optimum burns or just auto atk. I think a possible proof of the benefit of the cleave is that I am the WORST luck monk weapons wise... they never drop when I am on... and yet even though I am competing with monks using 2 RoF weapons, I am routinely ahead on the parses. And I swear I have quit saying "Rten Hits Mob_01 for 1000000 points of damage"!

03-27-2013, 04:16 PM
Cleave stacking?

03-27-2013, 04:20 PM
@Cellic you can look for posts, but basically if you make tradeskill armor and when you make the raid augs you use 7 cleave and 1 fero aug, you get +32 cleave times 7 pieces or 224 cleave, which adds +224 to your min hit and your avg hit for every swing. Which adds up when we hit 5-6x per second.

This is a link to a very good cleave parse by Zzlaar.

03-27-2013, 04:24 PM
Didn't know that, thanks. Just got back a while ago, so a bit out of the loop ;)

03-27-2013, 04:34 PM
For cellic... Perhaps unneeded clarification, but the cleave you'll see on items looks something like XI-32. The XI part doesn't stack, but the -32, which is a flat increase of 32dmg on each hit, does stack if you have multiple items with cleave.

By comparison, hstr adds 1 point of dmg for every 10hstr, so I look at 32 cleave like adding 320hstr, which puts it in perspective for those chasing hstr, but not going the TS route for cleave stacking. heh

I still haven't decided if I want to go the TS route for cleave or not. It is a dmg increase, and the gear is comparable to normal visible gear though slightly short of the highest tier on hme. It's dkp cheaper, but PP more expensive to go with TS gear in my guild.

The dps increase isn't all that dramatic because the +dmg is added on after everything, so it doesn't crit, or get % increased by anything. This means it's a bigger increase when not burning (percent wise) than when burning.

decisions decsions... heh

03-27-2013, 04:36 PM
@Gorkeyah another side benefit of the cleave is high AC mobs. Basically all the mobs that mitigate melee dmg have the cleave added at the end of the config which has your dps going up on the mobs that are hardest to hit.

03-28-2013, 07:27 AM
The reason you do well on sustained for the night, as compared ot just trash, is a lot of other people SLACK on trash. Now I am an "open raider" not a public raider so it is probably much more amplified in the setting I am in. But with us, on trash clears (especially way back in the MMM era) most of the peopel seriously slacked on trash mobs. As in they might attack every other, or go get a drink and miss 10 mobs, or just autoassist and autofire etc.

Ranking in top 10 whenyou include trash is more about paying attention in trash then wher any class is. I suspect regardless of the class you played you would wind up there (including druid).

03-28-2013, 07:43 AM
Ugh got in before me, but I am of the same mind:
There is a problem with the logic Rten. I, as with others, do seem to parse quite well over the total raid time as a measure of 'sustained', but there are some provisos
* accept that you did not capture everyone's damage (hello casters)
* accept that what you did capture is biased heavily towards yourself (adds, raid splits)
* accept that not everyone tries as hard as you on all mobs (some afk for trash)
* accept that some people will only do burns (autoattack dps only on trash)
* accept that some people who would try hard will not if not in a dps grp (again autoattack only)

If you accept all those, its easy to see why 'burn' parses (by definition a small proportion of the overall time in a raid) are easily masked by 'sustained'. And it is easy to imagine that cleave stacking here really makes a difference to bias the interpretation even more.

I have seen all of these provisos almost every raid night. I would say from my own experience that monks are amongst the hardest workers in EQ that I have seen. On any one typical raid night with say 4 rog/monks/zerks, I can only ever guarantee that 1 rog and 2 monks will be working hard on non-burn fights. On an atypical night, one of the rogs or zerks will wake up and pwn on every burn, and slack in between. (And every now and then a BL or ranger will wake up too, but thats a different story).

Overall I think our sustained is not *too* bad, particularly if you use cleave stacking. That does not really affect burn though, where we are in need of *desperate* help.

03-28-2013, 08:14 AM
Our sustained is pretty good, but it is not good enough to justify how bad we are on burst. With the weakness of our burst, we should do near necro levels of sustained (3+ minutes). I would rather they boost both a bit than boost one or the other extremely, but if anything our burst is what needs the most attention, as a lot of fights tend to favor "more damage right now" rather than "dps this down for 5 minutes".

03-28-2013, 10:06 AM
There's a beast in my guild that does quite well on sustained. He generally beats me both burst and sustained. Sometimes it looks reasonable, until you make the parse program attribute his pet dmg correctly. :)

I agree with Aggememon's observations about the effort people put in. I would add that some people are also better at timing the availability of their discs. We have a rogue that discs trash all the time without jeopardizing his burn on the named. Other people save their discs.

Also, some people will be lazy on dps if they know that the success of the event doesn't hinge on it. Others are more competitive and fight to do well on the dps standings whether it matters or not.

03-28-2013, 10:41 AM
I do not disagree with anything anyone has added here. I would add that I am too lazy to run the parses, and that we have a Rog who does parse the entire guild. We also have at least one necro who is good about adding in his dmg (self parsed) so I could see just how good they are sustained.

I would simplify my statement to be: Monks have a small to moderate problem on sustained DPS and we have a major issue on burns. I *think* that we all seem to agree the problems are not equal.

03-28-2013, 03:07 PM
Hopefully our changes help on both.

03-28-2013, 04:38 PM
Our base melee crit rate needs to increase for us to really make the progress we want to see on burns. 21% won't cut it, we need it to increase 6-7% or so.

This also would increase our sustained nicely, and would be a much cleaner and easier solution than the kitchen sink approach Elidroth is currently taking on Beta with regard to monks.

03-28-2013, 05:52 PM
Not to mention, with wizards now dropping massive random proc nuke bombs in addition to their twincasting 210k nukes, is there any reason now that crane kick shouldn't be able to crit?