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Zzlaarr
02-19-2013, 07:36 PM
Not sure in which post it was mentioned and speculated if there was a +dmg cap of cleave items and too lazy to search ... ;)

Well, I did some parsing and here are the results:



Table1
Calculated <------Parsed------> <---Parsed + Zan Fi--->
Total Min Max Min +dmg Max +dmg Min +ZFdmg Max +ZFdmg
Cleave
0 C32 0 614 1529 614 1529 699 85 1656 127
1 C32 32 646 1561 647 33 1562 33
2 C32 64 678 1593 680 33 1595 33
3 C32 96 710 1625 714 34 1629 34
4 C32 128 742 1657 746 32 1661 32
5 C32 160 774 1689 780 34 1695 34 865 85 1822 127
6 C32 192 806 1721 814 34 1729 34 899 85 1856 127
The variance in "+dmg" is from different +hstr on the gear or ATK rating maybe but I think it shows clearly that there is no cap, at least none we would hit by using 6 cleave items considering the use of TS armor.

For 0, 5 and 6 x Cleave32 I also checked if there is any influence on +dmg mod from Zan Fi, well there isn't either.

Min/Max are Min and max noraml hit (non crit) but the parse showed that crits are following the same scheme.
The "+dmg" columns are always caclulated compared to previous tier of cleave.
The "+ZFdmg" columns are calculated compared to the same cleave tier parse without ZF running.

I chose max 6 cleave items since this is probably the max of cleave effects we monks would stack. Well, me at least since I wouldn't want to miss out on a good raid BP with Impen timer reduction and 1 slot for Fero.
Well someone might add the cleave belt, but that's not an option for me really and I never bothered to loot one.

Gorkeyah
02-19-2013, 07:44 PM
Why not use regular raid legs, bp, and arms, and use cleave augs and trade skill gear everywhere else? I guess it depends on if you have a lot of pp or a lot of dkp. heh

Zzlaarr
02-19-2013, 07:49 PM
Why not use regular raid legs, bp, and arms, and use cleave augs and trade skill gear everywhere else? I guess it depends on if you have a lot of pp or a lot of dkp. heh
Yeah I am using raid BP. ;)
You can only have the bracer cleave aug 1x since it is lore.

Ughbash
02-19-2013, 07:51 PM
Why not use regular raid legs, bp, and arms, and use cleave augs and trade skill gear everywhere else? I guess it depends on if you have a lot of pp or a lot of dkp. heh

Raid BP and arms. If you want to max cleave you use a fero wrist a cleave wrist and cleave legs (since you can not use two cleave wrists).

Gorkeyah
02-19-2013, 08:12 PM
Thanks. Forgot about that wrinkle.

Maereax
02-19-2013, 09:43 PM
How did you add the cleave? If you were swapping significant gear the changes in heroics would have an effect here

Rten
02-20-2013, 12:32 AM
Very nice table which debunks my VoA based limited experience. I really want to see how an all cleave getup stacks up DPS wise with a regular armor and obviously same weapons. It has been my conjecture that the all cleave will also shift the benefit number for faster weapons based on the min/max hit change. I am glad someone is more willing to parse than I have been of late!

Zzlaarr
02-20-2013, 06:46 AM
How did you add the cleave? If you were swapping significant gear the changes in heroics would have an effect here
I always swapped VoA T4 with the corresponding RoF TS pieces. As you can see on my magelo I have a full set (except BP for which I use RoF T2 Raid).
Of course the heroic changes have a certain impact but for the goal of this parse not significant enough to matter. As you can see the influence of this effect was in the range of 0-2 +dmg.

The expected result was a +dmg increase of 32 dmg per additional cleave32 item. The actual parsed result was 32 - 34 for each cleave32 piece.
For each parse I also took a screenshot of the in game stats tab to be able to check the changes in hstr / ATK later on if needed but the changes were not overly significant.

The goal of this parse was to check if some kind of hard cap for +dmg mod of cleave was in place. If there was a hard cap we would have seen a stagnation at some point in +dmg from additional cleave items and that would have been very obvious and not something that could be explained with the deviation of a few hstr between 2 pieces of gear.

In some discussions it was proposed that there was a cap at +125 or +127, something similar to Flying Kick / Kick or Backstab mod or even induced by programing/memory limitations (signed bit issue).

In my opinion the goal was achieved and its proven that there is no cap up to at least +192dmg from cleave items which currently should be the most likely setup for people trying to "max" cleave stacking.

It does not prove that there is no cap at some later point. If memory related the next cap could be 254 but for now, nothing we would need to worry about.

Aggememnon
02-20-2013, 06:54 AM
Very nice work there! Thanks a lot for going to the trouble to do it, and for posting the results so clearly.

I've personally gone for a slightly different setup, cos a) I am cheap/lazy, and b) forgot about the wrist limitation till too late, and bought raid legs.
I've instead (so far) got cleave on raid arms, cultural boots, and 2x cultural wrist (using 1 old cultural wrist with a lesser cleave). I plan on gloves and head next. On the subject of head, what do you (human) guys do for night vision? I fortunately have the sigil ear from seru, so not too much of a problem for me....just curious

Ughbash
02-20-2013, 08:41 AM
One last question,

Did you have full fists of steel when testing this? Since it adds to each hth attack I woudl liek to maek sure they play nicely together. Fairly minor but 330 + 192 = 522 which woudl be over the 512 category.

Also does second spire add the normal amount? (Ideally we could test those at just the highest level).

You've confirmed cleave by itself is not a problem (Good Work), but we still need to verify it plays well with other abilities.

Zzlaarr
02-20-2013, 10:00 AM
One last question,

Did you have full fists of steel when testing this? Since it adds to each hth attack I woudl liek to maek sure they play nicely together. Fairly minor but 330 + 192 = 522 which woudl be over the 512 category.
I did all Tests with my own character, so yeah since I am max AA.



Also does second spire add the normal amount? (Ideally we could test those at just the highest level).

You've confirmed cleave by itself is not a problem (Good Work), but we still need to verify it plays well with other abilities.

It is the same effect that Zan Fi (+85dmg @highest rank) also adds, besides Zan Fi also offering other mods on top of that. This is the very reason why I tested it also with ZanFi running for the 5 and 6x test. It stacks.

Ughbash
02-20-2013, 10:32 AM
I did all Tests with my own character, so yeah since I am max AA.

Thanks for clarifying.



It is the same effect that Zan Fi (+85dmg @highest rank) also adds, besides Zan Fi also offering other mods on top of that. This is the very reason why I tested it also with ZanFi running for the 5 and 6x test. It stacks.

Bah I should have reread the original post before commenting on that, you clearly marked it but I posted by memory. Again Thank you, this make me feel better about the gear path I am planning. (Cultural for all but arms and BP).

Maereax
02-20-2013, 11:48 AM
Nicely done man, that's a good point. Thank you for parsing this all out!

tanecho
02-20-2013, 01:10 PM
I'm fairly sure that zan fi, second spire, and eye of the storm are separate lines, just to rule out a hard cap you may want to run a test with all 3 and check the minimum.

Ishtass
02-20-2013, 01:39 PM
what do you (human) guys do for night vision? I fortunately have the sigil ear from seru, so not too much of a problem for me....just curious

Reroll... :cool:

tanecho
02-20-2013, 02:09 PM
I'm iksar and I use sigil for ultravision.

Archus
02-20-2013, 04:56 PM
Thanks so much for doing this parse.

Zzlaarr
02-20-2013, 07:06 PM
I'm fairly sure that zan fi, second spire, and eye of the storm are separate lines, just to rule out a hard cap you may want to run a test with all 3 and check the minimum.
Just to please you I did this parse. :tongue:

Result in short: It stacks, no cap. (as expected)





Table2

<-Actual + ZanFi+2nd Spire-> <-Actual + ZanFi+2nd Spire+EotS Rk.III->
Min +Sdmg Max +Sdmg Min +Edmg Max +Edmg
902 37 1859 37 1399 497 2433 574 (5x C32)
936 37 1893 37 1433 497 2467 574 (6x C32)
--------------------------------------------------------
34 0 34 0 34 0 34 0

To explain the above:


The parse is directly compareble to my "Table1" in 1st post
I repeated all 5x and 6xC32 parses to confirm the old values
+Sdmg is +dmg added by 2nd Spire, +37 is the expected +dmg from 2nd spire
You get the result by substracting the min/max values of Table 1, "Actual + Zan Fi" columns from the above Table "Actual + ZanFi+2nd Spire" min/max values
(for 6xC32 this means 936 - 899 = 37)
to confirm that there is no cap in any way or form of +dmg by cleave/AA/discs the difference of 5xC32 vs 6xC32 needs to be 1xC32
or using a 2nd method the +dmg added by 2nd Spire needs to be identical if you compare 5xC32 vs 6x32
theoretical expected result of method 1 is +32dmg, result was +34dmg (which is in line with Table 1 parses due to a change in hstr differences of gear that added +2dmg)
using method 2 it is expected to add +37dmg and comparing this to another C32 result it should be 0 difference, the result was as expected
Parsing "EotS Rk.III" isn't that straight forward and can only be proven by comparing different tiers of Cleave32 unless you want to calculat the influence of all the % mods of the disc to calculate pre +dmg min / max hit base
In theory if there is no cap the results of comparing 2 tiers should be identical to the results of all other previous parses by directly substracting the values.
This means: Substrating the min/max hit values should result in the C32 difference of the 2 compared tiers. 6xC32 - 5xC32 = 1xC32
As for substracting +dmg values the result always should be "0" since if there was a cap we would see a higher +dmg value for the lower tier of C32 (higher tier adds less +dmg if capped earlier already)


Sounds complicated maybe, but no clue how to explain in another, easier way. Just read a few times maybe, sooner or later it will become clear. :biggrin:

Wish I could just have posted a new updated complete table but "Code" does not support such a wide table without scrolling.
Wish there was some kind of table functionality on the board cuz getting the above tables in a readable form here took me longer than the actual parsing I think. :rolleyes:

Ughbash
02-21-2013, 08:18 AM
Thanks Zzlaarr clear and concise and makes me feel a lot better about my plans to go with Cultural.