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Ughbash
01-31-2013, 12:14 PM
I know (unless it changed) that heroics have an effect every 25 points.

Are the breakpoitns to shoot for 25,50,75 or are they 26,51,76?

I've assuemd 0-24 was one area 25-49 another, 50-74 another etc etc but it coudl be 1-25, 26-50, 51-75.

Just wanted to ask those who have parsed it which it was.

Rten
01-31-2013, 01:32 PM
This answer is a pragmatic combination of experience and educated guesses...

H-Str is based on 10s... you get 1 to min and max hit every 10.

H-Sta is linear per... your HPS go up dependent on level with it... I am not aware of anyone actually doing any parsing to show regen or other benefits (which would be pretty freaking minor).

H-Agi appears to be fairly random with it being something LIKE 1 AC for every 3... Once again the defensive benefits have never been parsed to my knowledge. And to be clear I believe some other classes have done some parsing, but assuming that the benefit is the same for monks as it is for SKs or War just seems risky.

H-Dex this USED to add +1 to max hit and +3 to max crit hit... and did not effect the minimum hit. But with the SOE fix it now has some vague benefit for defense that has not been parsed out to my knowldge

AC-in foot slot. I am pretty sure this was parsed to be a bump per 25AC, but it has been a long time since I looked for the parses.


Net is that I am not aware of any proven benefits for Heroics that are based on 25ish ranges.

Ughbash
01-31-2013, 02:44 PM
Endurance regen is based on +1 for every 200 in combined heroic str dex sta agi.

Am sure I saw a post that heroics went in 25's. I tend not to trust the displayed AC since it is so far off real AC that it is almost meaningless. It's a hodgepodge of avoidance and mitigation rolled into one number before softcaps modify it.

Ishtass
01-31-2013, 02:46 PM
I've also seen the 25 number thrown around for agi/dex mainly, but again, hard to show numbers that are reliable, so not exactly "proven" afaik.

Maereax
01-31-2013, 06:55 PM
Dex damage increases are in intervals of 10, same with str. I don't know about the defensive increases

brogett
02-02-2013, 05:43 AM
There are two effects - heroic which is usually every 10 (maybe every 25, thesteeelwarrior is the best spot to look for hard parse data there), and the old-school original stat which is every 1. Eg attack for str, hp for stamina, crit rate for dex (not that we can see it).

As heroic stats are both combined, we can still get bonuses when not at a multiple of 10. Infact for dps I'd say the extra attack and crit rate is more powerful than the heroic portion anyway.

Nedrom
02-02-2013, 10:17 AM
Always best to cycle highest ac aug into boots first and second into BP slot for best defence.

A long time ago we had the tiers for this but I think we forgot to copy from beta forums.

Ishtass
02-02-2013, 12:37 PM
As heroic stats are both combined, we can still get bonuses when not at a multiple of 10. Infact for dps I'd say the extra attack and crit rate is more powerful than the heroic portion anyway.

I've never heard someone say that heroics got the normal stat's portion before. Crit rate is also only for ranged now afaik.

Kaliaila
02-02-2013, 01:15 PM
I am fairly sure Brogett is simply assuming that everyone who gets armor with heroic stats is going to be well over the cap limit; so when the heroic stat increases the cap you also get benefit from the regular stat that was previously being wasted.

Aahz
02-02-2013, 09:27 PM
So what is every1 focus now because I was going with str / agi / dex / sta is there a better order for this now or should I keep it the same?

Ishtass
02-02-2013, 09:46 PM
So what is every1 focus now because I was going with str / agi / dex / sta is there a better order for this now or should I keep it the same?

We can't seem to agree on what's most important. I go for agi. I used to go for dex as well. str and sta are so insanely little it's pointless (imo) but others will disagree.

tanecho
02-02-2013, 11:57 PM
The +dmg portion of str is worthless, but you also get about +1 attack per str as well, which probably contributes as much as the plus damage part if not more. That said, I'd put dex and agi about equal, str a little below that, and sta a fair bit below that on my priorities.

Aahz
02-03-2013, 12:58 AM
Yeah that what I was thinking I see most of the good augs are dex like crazy and I have lost a ton of str with grp gear and couple aug changes so gonna go for dex then agi

Ishtass
02-03-2013, 02:22 AM
The reason I put agi over dex is because we have more defensive abilities based off of agi, and the melee damage portion of hDex was nerfed into nothing. Just fyi since it's changed since you last played.

Maereax
02-03-2013, 03:43 AM
The damage portion of dex was nerfed, not removed. It still adds crit from the raw dex.

Also, Ishtass, I'm not sure where you're getting us having more defensive abilities that are based off HAgi than HDex. Dex adds block and ripo, Agi adds Dodge and defense. Two and two. Plus DEX actually adds some DPS whereas AGI does no such thing.

Nedrom
02-03-2013, 09:11 PM
The +dmg portion of str is worthless.

How so? I've always found heroics to be way more confusing than they had to be.

Mris
02-03-2013, 09:30 PM
The +dmg portion of str is worthless, but you also get about +1 attack per str as well, which probably contributes as much as the plus damage part if not more.

Serious or sarcastic? I've never parsed attack (it's not like it's hard to get) but I was under the impression that we had enough attack that we really didn't benefit from more in most situations... and certainly not so little of it?


How so? I've always found heroics to be way more confusing than they had to be.

IMO, it's all in how you view it. If you're looking at your total HStr, it has an impact on your DPS. But if you're looking at 2 pieces of gear, the overall difference is, what, maybe 3 HStr at most? 1 damage per hit (if it puts you over a multiple of 10) doesn't add up very fast. Back during SoD, when class armor had 4 different variations, it was pointed out that, no matter which heroic stat you prioritized, the HStr difference only came out to 1 damage tops.

Worthless not implying 'unparseable' (is that a word?), but 'being of so little impact as to never change the outcome of a situation' or 'unworthy of notice'.

Maereax
02-04-2013, 05:34 AM
How so? I've always found heroics to be way more confusing than they had to be.

Because the difference between the #1 Hstr monk in the game (savager - 387) vs the #50 Hstr monk in the game (Sareaeg - 304) is eight damage per hit

rankings according to magelo top lists for Hstr monks.

Ughbash
02-04-2013, 08:38 AM
Attack is failry worthless.

Before they added attack to Talisman for shaman, I used to make the Shamans cast Champion just for the attack. Then I parsed it and the 150 attack (or whatever it was a few years back and my memory is fuzzy) did not make any difference.

The reason Heroic str is about useless is that lets say you get 250 heroic str. That is the equivalent of one cleave X +25 aug. The +25 on augs stack (though some people have posted there might be a cap to that).

I tend to go Dex = AGi >> Everything else.

Dex helps block and crits, Agi helps dodge and Avoidance.

Nedrom
02-04-2013, 10:45 AM
I'm not referring to attack, I'm referring to the +dmg mod from hSTR.

Yes, I'm being serious about why this wouldn't be worthwhile. Considering we hit more often than any other class, any damage would be welcome.

I'm just trying to understand here why it is so bad.

All of you post that hDex, hAGI are unparsable, at least +dmg is parasble, so I'm at a loss here.

Ughbash
02-04-2013, 11:02 AM
I'm not referring to attack, I'm referring to the +dmg mod from hSTR.

Yes, I'm being serious about why this wouldn't be worthwhile. Considering we hit more often than any other class, any damage would be welcome.

I'm just trying to understand here why it is so bad.

All of you post that hDex, hAGI are unparsable, at least +dmg is parasble, so I'm at a loss here.

When you are hitting on average for 1000 per hit, adding 10 heroic strength makes it hit on average for 1001. With limited resources it is just not enough bang for the buck.

Not when there is gear that will add 25 or 28 or whatever it is now per hit.

Mris
02-04-2013, 04:09 PM
I think wires got a little crossed here. Ughbash's attack comment was, I think, a reply to my question about attack. My "serious?" question was aimed at Tanecho, and has been answered to my satisfaction. (Of course, things could have changed, I suppose, but I'm personally not in the mood to do the non-afk parsing required to test it on modern npcs.)

As to the +damage, if you do sacrifice other heroics for HStr, +1 damage per hit is going to take a long time to make up for the damage lost if you die a round or two faster.

Archus
02-04-2013, 04:47 PM
I think wires got a little crossed here. Ughbash's attack comment was, I think, a reply to my question about attack. My "serious?" question was aimed at Tanecho, and has been answered to my satisfaction. (Of course, things could have changed, I suppose, but I'm personally not in the mood to do the non-afk parsing required to test it on modern npcs.)

As to the +damage, if you do sacrifice other heroics for HStr, +1 damage per hit is going to take a long time to make up for the damage lost if you die a round or two faster.

I agree with everything that has been said about hstr in this thread. In fact, I no longer value it more than hsta. I'd slightly rather have the handful of extra hp than the almost non existent dps increase. hagi and hdex still king for me though. Ugh you forgot to also mention that hdex helps with riposte, but thats probably more important for those who tend to tank a lot.

Maereax
02-04-2013, 04:57 PM
I'm not referring to attack, I'm referring to the +dmg mod from hSTR.

Yes, I'm being serious about why this wouldn't be worthwhile. Considering we hit more often than any other class, any damage would be welcome.

I'm just trying to understand here why it is so bad.

All of you post that hDex, hAGI are unparsable, at least +dmg is parasble, so I'm at a loss here.

Read my reply. The #1 hstr monk in the game and the #50 hstr monk in the game do a whopping total of 8 DMG per hit difference.

Ughbash
02-05-2013, 08:32 AM
Ugh you forgot to also mention that hdex helps with riposte, but thats probably more important for those who tend to tank a lot.

You are right, though that was more benficial when Robot was still light blue for swarming.

Was my favorite spot to Plevel friends.

sensei savager
02-05-2013, 02:38 PM
The #1 hstr monk in the game.

I go all STR because that's how I like to play, I don't die because I KNOW how to play. GLASS CANNON!!! :cool:

Rten
02-06-2013, 12:17 AM
Nothing we can get in game is significant... it is the cumulative effect of our decisions which add up to as little difference per toon in a class as exists. And we all know that playing our class well does make the most difference. But for me, when I look at the cumulative benefit of cleave and HStr and intelligence in choosing fast weapons, my basic argument is that I have more dmg per hit and more defensive capacity in a way that is easy for a raider to get than the majority of monks in the game. I believe that this why I am routinely not only the top monk on guild parses, but pretty damn commonly the only monk. And if I slack or am talking on the phone or get put in a group with a shitty makeup, I am not even close to top 10. And I have yet to get an RoF weapon... which of course is not much of an upgrade either, but one day it will help too!

So yes I agree that HStr is less than Cleave... but there is nothing that is giving a better bang for the buck than the shitty pennies on the dollar that HStr gives...

Yes that is a soap box you see me standing on :)

Maereax
02-06-2013, 03:33 PM
I see where you're coming from then, and I agree on the principle, but I have to ask... Why do people think hstr is more useful than hdex? I was under the impression hdex was only a defensive stat and worse than hagi and hstr until I started looking into it, now I'm prioritizing it over both hagi and hstr.

It adds both crit and damage to >some < attacks. Meaning it adds something most of us agree would thoroughly increase the dps gap between us and other classes (crit) and a slightly inconsistent version of the same thing as hstr. Plus there are minor defensive bonuses.

During beta and also a little more recently on here, I was 110% on the hdex for dps hate train, but it was more because I didn't have any information than because I had a reason.

Ughbash
02-06-2013, 03:57 PM
I see where you're coming from then, and I agree on the principle, but I have to ask... Why do people think hstr is more useful than hdex? I was under the impression hdex was only a defensive stat and worse than hagi and hstr until I started looking into it, now I'm prioritizing it over both hagi and hstr.

It adds both crit and damage to >some < attacks. Meaning it adds something most of us agree would thoroughly increase the dps gap between us and other classes (crit) and a slightly inconsistent version of the same thing as hstr. Plus there are minor defensive bonuses.

During beta and also a little more recently on here, I was 110% on the hdex for dps hate train, but it was more because I didn't have any information than because I had a reason.

It adds crit and damage to ranged attacks... whic make it useless for offense. IT was nerfed to not add damage to physical attacks.

That said it is a good stat defensively and if you swarm a better chance of making a riposte. So if you are a heavy Swarmer dex is best, if you are defensive minded Agi and Dex are both good.

I don't see a reason for Str. EQ is a game of inches, and Hstr only gives us milimeters.

sensei savager
02-06-2013, 05:20 PM
Yes, but you only need 25 millimeters to make an inch ;)

Ishtass
02-06-2013, 06:24 PM
Yes, but you only need 25 millimeters to make an inch ;)

I guess when you've only got an inch those millimeters seem huge wink wink

Ughbash
02-07-2013, 09:02 AM
Yes, but you only need 25 millimeters to make an inch ;)

25.4 but who is counting :)

And I knew I should have said Nanometer.

Maereax
02-07-2013, 01:31 PM
I did a parse last night, I dropped 40 hdex without going down a tier in anything else, then added the Dex back, one was ~85k his and the other ~120k hits. My crit rate went up by .01 and my avg hit went up by five. Blah.

moscato
02-07-2013, 04:01 PM
hsta ftw!

Rten
02-07-2013, 04:09 PM
@Maereax so Hdex effected min hit? But it did not effect max hit or crit hit (min/max) in any way? I would have suspected that if there was a min hit change it would have also effected min crit too. And can you translate your swing count into ~time of the parse?

The other easy to make mistake that I have done is that when I started the first parse I had some finite poison on me... and that once those procs had all gone off it was not going to proc any more... this had the net effect of making it look like dps dropped, and it was only once I crawled through the numbers that I saw proc damage dropped.

Also what buffs where you running this test with?

Maereax
02-07-2013, 06:00 PM
Time and swing amount don't translate into the same thing for this parse, and my buffs are directly related to that.

The first was a 4h parse and the second was ~2h. Because of the nature of the parse I ran speedfocus the entire time with my haste belt click and 16% overhaste. Zero other buffs/songs. I sat at 211% haste with an 18 and a 19 delay weapon with 25hh the entire time. The purpose here was purely to determine the changes hdex would add to our hits in terms of crit rate, min hit, max hit and accuracy, not DPS values.

I'm not sure about max hit or min/max crit honestly, I just took a glance at the parses right before going to bed, I'm still running more over the next few days. I will look when I get home.

tanecho
02-07-2013, 06:15 PM
I would be interested to see this under terrorpalm as well, to see scaling.

Maereax
02-07-2013, 08:32 PM
Without the dex:

Maereax -vs- Combat Dummy Geza: -- DMG: 130684992 -- DPS: 12165 -- Scaled: 12165 -- Punch: 129827992 -- DirDmg: 857000 -- Non-crit rate: 80.5% -- crit rate: 19.5% -- Attempts: 126804 -- Hits: 97546 -- Missed: 29258 -- Accuracy: 76.9% -- Avg Hit: 1339 -- Max hit: 4077
http://i.imgur.com/u149xmg.jpg

With the dex:

Maereax -vs- Combat Dummy Geza: -- DMG: 83245036 -- DPS: 12174 -- Scaled: 12174 -- Punch: 82702275 -- DirDmg: 542761 -- Non-crit rate: 80.4% -- crit rate: 19.6% -- Attempts: 80508 -- Hits: 61933 -- Missed: 18575 -- Accuracy: 76.9% -- Avg Hit: 1344 -- Max hit: 4077
http://i.imgur.com/zRKWkQK.jpg

Maereax
02-07-2013, 08:51 PM
min/max crit and max hit stayed the same

Rten
02-07-2013, 10:26 PM
Average hit also went up by 5, which is just plain crazy....not sure what I am thinking about this yet. well the change set is small period, and 9 DPS for 40HDex is just sad sad sad. Granted I would expect HStr to have a slightly greater but still generically pitiful effect. I think my conclusion increasingly is that in the average real EQ fight the ranking of values is:

1-40 PAY Attention and know your class
41 Get the fastest h2h weapon with the best ratio you can

And everything else matters so damn little that the statistical variance of the RNG is going to mask it.

Unless you get all cleave, in which case you may optimistically look like trivialy more dps than other monks, but in general are still going to look like a very gimpy Necro/Wizard/Mage/Ranger/Berserker/Rogue.... And a good beastlord is going to own you on anything over our burn order max time....

Ishtass
02-07-2013, 10:42 PM
Your soap box got a little smaller

Maereax
02-07-2013, 11:15 PM
Average hit also went up by 5, which is just plain crazy....not sure what I am thinking about this yet. well the change set is small period, and 9 DPS for 40HDex is just sad sad sad. Granted I would expect HStr to have a slightly greater but still generically pitiful effect.

I was thinking about this. Theoretically wouldn't it only bump up +4 with 40 Hstr?

tanecho
02-08-2013, 01:07 AM
Plus any benefit of higher str, including higher atk.

Ughbash
02-08-2013, 08:45 AM
Maereax...

Were you using a ferocity item on any of the parses? A ferocity item would set a higher min hit.

Since mos of us use Ferocity XXX we would not notice the increase of Minimum hit or average damage (assuming the increase in average is from the increase on the lower end of the scale).

Maereax
02-08-2013, 11:54 AM
I used the same feel item in both parses, T4 VoA raid legs. None of my gear changed between the two parses besides my augs and my cloak. I actually upgraded arms and legs between doing them and swapped the augs back to my old gear for accuracy.