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View Full Version : an old kajok post about returns for ac at a specific level



moscato
01-09-2013, 07:31 PM
i think i remember kajok posting something along the lines of once he got to 7k ac he didn't see any more benefits from additional ac.

i think that's that's the case. i might have imagined it.

search > me for this topic so if anyone remembers that post or wants to start smart talking about diminishing AC returns that would be cool too!

Nedrom
01-09-2013, 10:10 PM
There is no ceiling to AC benefit the way it works for our class. This is what I learned from Khavok (dev) way back when they reversed the nerf.

Kajok
01-09-2013, 11:02 PM
Post was made back in HoT b/c at the time we couldn't go past 7.2k ac fully decked out. There wasn't any noticable mitigation difference after 7k. I am obviously unsure what the cap is now so there might be gains to be had going higher (untestable for me in VoA b/c maxing ac meant using shitty gear in some slots).

Ned is correct on AC having no ceiling; but it's tiered (like kick dmg) so you need so much to push it to the next lvl.

What I recall from conversations too is that guild pallies were seeing no increase 10k-11k though they are on different tables I'm sure.

moscato
01-10-2013, 12:10 AM
struggling with aug choice so i kinda wanted to revisit this topic. a part of me is still hoping that i can make all decisions based one heroic. in my case, dex. simply put, i want as much hdex as possible for the benefits to block and ripo and increased chance to get fists proc going as much as possible.

but i just don't think it's that simple. damnit.

Nedrom
01-10-2013, 12:12 PM
I parsed AC values upwards of 8000 during the 'nerf' fix testing that I did and saw improvements. I also have not seen any patch notes indicating any major changes to how AC works.

Perhaps some controlled parsing on test server is required to put this to rest as I simply don't believe it.

Kajok is right though, we have two things going on, a soft cap and a return over cap, however, I don't know the code in the back end.

The only way to know for sure is to simply parse it.

Ughbash
01-10-2013, 12:15 PM
struggling with aug choice so i kinda wanted to revisit this topic. a part of me is still hoping that i can make all decisions based one heroic. in my case, dex. simply put, i want as much hdex as possible for the benefits to block and ripo and increased chance to get fists proc going as much as possible.

but i just don't think it's that simple. damnit.

Have seen people say Hdex for Block and Hagi for Block (Parry and Riposte are Hdex).

Has it ever been confirmed via parsing which it is?

I know Hagi helps us not get hit so I tend to focus on it (now that they neutered Hdex for damage).

Maereax
01-10-2013, 08:42 PM
Is hdex proc chance? And does that even work on innate procs like fists of steel? If there's a parsable difference, that might make hdex somewhat important for us, rather than the 'useless' that most everyone has labeled it.

I personally go Hagi is > Hstr is slightly > hdex is > hsta

Archus
01-10-2013, 09:21 PM
Is hdex proc chance? And does that even work on innate procs like fists of steel? If there's a parsable difference, that might make hdex somewhat important for us, rather than the 'useless' that most everyone has labeled it.

I personally go Hagi is > Hstr is slightly > hdex is > hsta

Personally I go Hagi is slightly > Hdex > Hstr >>> Hsta. Even with dps benefits of Hdex nerfed, I value its defensive benefit over the miniscule Hstr dps benefit.

I know we're not SKs, but the current thought among SKs from the beta boards is Hdex > Hagi > AC. I haven't read all the information there, but Hdex may be better than we think.

Maereax
01-10-2013, 11:42 PM
I know we're not SKs, but the current thought among SKs from the beta boards is Hdex > Hagi > AC. I haven't read all the information there, but Hdex may be better than we think.

Because of soley the defensive benefits? or is that taking into account the proc chance?

nvm on the 2nd part: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/EQ:Heroic_Stats

Maereax
01-11-2013, 12:15 AM
- Heroic Dexterity: Increases endurance pool, endurance regen, and the maximum amount of endurance regen a character can have. Also increases damage done by ranged attacks, improves chance to successfully assassinate or headshot, and improves the chance to riposte, block, and parry incoming attacks.

that's from allas wiki on Hdex. No mention of procs

moscato
01-11-2013, 07:16 AM
proc info came from rog forum. no idea if it's correct or still functioning or ever was.

Ishtass
01-11-2013, 10:57 AM
Alla is not always the most accurate source, but the proc info seems more of a rumor than proven

Gorkeyah
01-11-2013, 12:06 PM
Personally, I'm going all agi gear so I can be old school! :P

It's nice to know how these things work, but I question how much difference you can make by trying to raise a particular heroic exclusively versus what you end up with by just getting whatever gear upgrades come your way measured from an hme/tier point of view.

In other words, without trying I might end up with +290 in some heroic, but if I go out of my way, I might end up with +320. How much difference is there between the two? Would anyone notice?

Having said that, what I typically try for are balanced stats. I want HME, AC, and the herorics that matter to melee. Mostly this applies to aug choices where I wont take an aug without AC, or a pure AC aug without hme. Then I look at heroics and lately I was liking hagi for group game tanking reasons (don't think it matters much to a raiding monk, but I do things on my own also).

Then even more recently I find out that tanks are all about hdex now after I dropped hdex in importance when they nerfed it for dps. And that reminded me of how back in the day monks would wear gear based on how much +agi it had until someone figured out that AC was better. -I knew a monk back then who quit partly becaused of this change in reality. heh

Whether it matters or not I do hate loosing in one stat to gain in another when I'm considering an 'upgrade'. rof t1 raid loot is always a loss in heroics over the voa gear I have already. :( I haven't looked at or have access to t2 loot yet.

Ughbash
01-11-2013, 12:20 PM
Heroic Agility helps avoidance an Dodge.

Heroic Dex helps Riposte and Parry.

I have seen reputable sources on BOTH sides of the camp say Block was modified by Hdex or Hagi.

For a Knight or Warriosr Hdex benefits them more defensively than Hagi.

For a monk I am not sure.

Also keep in mind that Hagi and Hdex make a differnce every 25 points so goiung from 1 to 24 makes no differnce, going from 24 to 26 makes a difference.


EDIT:

Did some searching....

Old Post message from when they added heroics...



- Heroic Agility: Increases endurance pool, endurance regen, and the maximum amount of endurance regen a character can have. Also increases the chance to dodge an attack, grants a bonus to defense skill, and reduces falling damage.

- Heroic Dexterity: Increases endurance pool, endurance regen, and the maximum amount of endurance regen a character can have. Also increases damage done by ranged attacks, improves chance to successfully assassinate or headshot, and improves the chance to riposte, block, and parry incoming attacks.


So if Block and Riposte is helped by Dex and Dodge and Avoidance (defense skill) helped by AGI I guess we should treat those two equally (unless you are swarming).... Btw anyone know a decent spot to swarm at 100? Robot greened out :(

brogett
01-11-2013, 03:25 PM
proc info came from rog forum. no idea if it's correct or still functioning or ever was.

Was probably my broken parse which I retracted a few hours later after I realised I'd accidentally removed too much gear and nerfed my Weapon Efficiency level through gear. I think we concluded there was no clear change in proc rates in the end, but it needs reparsing - so I set one going. ;-)

Dex certainly increases critical hit rate, somewhere between 100 and 150 dex per 1% I believe. This is normal dex, not heroic, but heroic is normal + more. However it's pretty hard to get enough for this to be a major impact on dps.

Dropping my total dex by about 500 (some heroic, some real dex) has dropped my parse crit rate from 21.5% to 16.9%, but this is ~2 hour and ~40min parse so far so it's not exactly super reliable. The effect is real though; what is in question is to how many significant digits are those numbers correct. (Yes, I kept the same cleave rating.)

We can work out the impact on dps. Look at average crit vs average normal hit in Gamparse. Do some basic maths to figure out the combined average if crit rate goes up by 1%. For me on a quick test it worked out that +1% crit gives ~ +1.3% higher average hit, making each hDex maybe 1dps on solo work and 10-15 dps on an optimised short raid burn. Far more significant than the flat +dam from hStr, but I've no idea how important the +attack is from hStr.

Piggymonk
01-12-2013, 01:08 AM
hagi not only effect dodge but also increase your ac as armor of wisdom do, so that means it can be considered as SOFT AC CAP.

so all knights now put hagi over hdex and so should we.

Maereax
01-12-2013, 01:09 AM
Softcap and increasing your AC are two very, very different things

Archus
01-12-2013, 05:11 AM
hagi not only effect dodge but also increase your ac as armor of wisdom do, so that means it can be considered as SOFT AC CAP.

so all knights now put hagi over hdex and so should we.

You missed the part where knights are actually putting hdex over hagi now. At least sks are.

Piggymonk
01-12-2013, 08:02 PM
Yes Mae, I do know the huge difference between AC and soft AC, but every 2-3 hagi just add 1 shown AC, and that ac is just like shield ac which is directly added to your soft ac.

Maereax
01-12-2013, 08:48 PM
Ok... Softcap AC is AC that returns full value. As soon as you go above your softcap, the armor you're getting is severely reduced. That has nothing to do with the shown AC that you see on your character window, that's a set value depending on your class. The ONLY thing that adds to softcap AC is shield AC. Armor of wisdom, agility cap, defense skill and heroic all agility add to shown AC, but not to your softcap