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Mris
12-17-2012, 10:43 PM
Monk and rogue chat. It's a bit messy with the timestamps, I'll clean it up later.

<Nire> on their snare ability. Bc otherwise its pretty worthless.
<Elidroth> that's no problem.. I'll take a look at it
<Brael> Assassin's Wrath - 89% (increases crit damage on backstabs i was told you said this was doable?
<Nire> rogues- for the counterattack discipline which is once every 40 or so minutes. Maybe a Hastened timer for it?
<Khoza> Monks - Our Five Point Palm AA had a change in Rain of Fear, from a delayed damage to a direct damage. (Good change.) With this change, it gained a lot of aggro. Is this intended, or should we not get used to it?
<Elidroth> Assassin's Wrath - I'll have to look at it more to see if I can actually manipulate crit damage on a backstab
<Elidroth> I know I can increase crit chance but not sure if I can mod the damage
<Elidroth> it uses a different effect than spells
<Obiziana> Monk - Imitate Death: Can we get a few more ranks of hastened to bring it down to around 30 Second reuse?
<Trazz> plz
<Khoza> I third that.
<Elidroth> Counterattack Disc - I think that's doable.. though I'll have to be careful how much I reduce it
<Songsa> rogues twisted chance discipline could use more ranks of hastened twisted chance to decrease the reuse timer (14min atm)
<Elidroth> Five Point Palm was changed because too many monks complained about wasting it since it doesn't allow for more than one on the npc at a time
<Elidroth> the agro was a byproduct
<Brael> Elid is it it doable for Rogues to get AA that will shadowstep us behind mob every 20 to 30s .kinda of a Postion tool to put us behind the mob maybe add dps boost to it like Battle leap? battle leap effect now is Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 35%
<Brael> maybe change effect to Skill Damage Taken (10%) Limit Skill to Piercing
<Elidroth> I'm not going to bring Hastened Imitate Death down to 30 seconds.
<Obiziana> Can we get some reduction then, perhaps down to 1M?
<Elidroth> I'll think about it. I don't really like the idea but I'll think about it
<Obiziana> OK, thank you.
<Copyright> Monks - Possible to receive some form of hastened AA line to quicken the reuse of shadewalker's synergy and other syngery abilities from maybe 30 seconds down to 15 or less if we can get it.
<Elidroth> Brael - there's no way for me to position you behind a mob
<Songsa> generally speaking : anything about push in the plans?
<Brael> so theres no form of Shadowstep that least put us close to mob?
<Brogett> On the topic of hastened abilities, is there a chance of getting hastened sneak so that the sneak reuse matches the hide reuse (given we use both together)?
<Elidroth> doubling the output of a single ability seems a bit excessive
<Obiziana> Monks - New rank/ranks of Fists of Steel. Making the proc Fists of Fury a perminant effect on the monk?
<Trazz> Monks - a class defining ability. Similar to Bards, Shaman or Berserkers. Something that would want a raid leader to put monks in each group. Masters Aura was a good start, but we need something more attuned to modern day raids. Maybe something that adds additional dps bonuses like strength/attack to group situations?
<Elidroth> slow down
<Elidroth> I need to answer each question
<Nire> Rogues- Improved Shroud of Stealth-Invisibile to players but not all mobs. I don't like the fact that the masters of invisibilty can be targeted by a spell that can be casted every minute or something. I think this takes away from the classes' RP aspect and pve aspect* Nire apoligiez
<Elidroth> Songsa - push is in code's hands.. I don't have any idea where it is in their priority list
<Copyright> Yeah I am not necessarily looking to cut the reuse in half, I would be looking to bring our sustained back up to a competitive value
<Songsa> thx ut my question for hastened twisted chance?
<Elidroth> You just asked to cut it from 30 seconds to 15 or less. How is that NOT asking to have it cut in half?
<Brael> Any chance of seeing Quadruple Backstab for AA?
<Daremok1> can you make an aa to improve master aura to reduce rampage damage to group since rampage in RoF is around 36k and melee can't even get close enough to melee atm
<Elidroth> STOP
<Elidroth> there are 5 questions that have been asked already
<Elidroth> New Fists of Steel - I'm ok with that. Making it a perm effect? No
<Copyright> Im just looking to get the reuse down, something similar to rogue backstab-ish. Not quite the same reuse, but parse comparisons show us at similar dps value than hybrid classes. I was under the impression we were intended to be pure dps
<Obiziana> Ok, appreciate the new ranks!
<Brogett> Daremok1 - I think that is generic and affects ber, mnk and rog all alike, and probably some hybrids too. (Agree though)
<Elidroth> Trazz - I don't like the idea of monks becoming ADPS
<Elidroth> You need to be useful from pure dps, not what you bring to other groups
<Elidroth> Nire - We're pretty happy with Rogue's stealth abilities currently and don't want to improve upon them right now
<Synyster> melee cant dps in RoF lol have you raided this expansion yet?
<Nire> well ya for blue servers=P but I'm on a pvp server=P
<Obiziana> Eli - along those lines, making monks useful as pure dps. Do you have any ideas on how we can improve there. Either in burst or sustained? I know a lot of monks feel that sustained is the best direction to move the class.
<Elidroth> Daremok - Are there many raid bosses that are AOE Rampaging?
<Nire> Aaryonar in ToV
<Elidroth> because that's something that should be fixed within the raids, not with more AA
<Tharkis> basically every one of them elidroth
<Daremok1> yes
<Tharkis> some of them have AoE effects that mean the melee have to back out as well and stop dpsing
<Elidroth> Aary's AoE is pretty rare though.. I think I have it set down at like 2 or 3 percent
<Elidroth> though I could certainly drop the AoE Ramp damage on him
<Elidroth> but without going down this discussion too far.. he IS intended to be a gatekeeper so to speak
<Nire> I mean that + regular rampage tears the ramp tanks apart=P
<Elidroth> so heal them better
<Nire> rogue<
<Copyright> Monks - Added ranks in extended crystal palm, extended speed focus, extended heel of kanji lines, any shot at any of the above? Those lines would help our sustained significantly
<Elidroth> Obiziana - sustained dps is definitely on my list of things I want to add for monks
<Khoza> Monk - There was an idea floating around to add hand to hand damage to the Punch Mastery AA line. Is that still viable?
<Elidroth> I really want to avoid adding MORE activated abilities if possible
<Nire> Rogues-extended timers on blade fury or make it proc more frequently?
<Elidroth> Khoza - It's on my list of things to look at for sure
<Brogett> Does that include self-procced abilities?
<Khoza> Thanks!
<Brael> sorry to repeat or reask this but is there any chance to see Quadruple Backstab for rogues?
<Elidroth> no Brogett.. I'm referring to buttons you have to press within a regular rotation
<Elidroth> Brael - this gets asked every year, and every year I say the same thing. There is no way for Quad Backstab to happen
<Elidroth> it simply isn't possible
<Brogett> So is there any likelihood we can get weaker forms of standard ADPS abilities as procs (eg shaman epic) to offset the requirement for perfect group setups. It doesn't boost max burst, just sustained and improvement in suboptimal cases.
<Elidroth> well.. rephrase.. it isn't possible without a LOT of code work
<Obiziana> Eli, along the lines of monks DPS. Right now our 2hb dps is not even in the same ballpark as our h2h. Any chance we could get a new AA that would improve the sustained DPS of a big 2hb? Either through a large damage bonus or perhaps a proc similar to Fists of Fury?
<Elidroth> like what Brogett?
<Songsa> shm epic kind of ability tied to a proc maybe like our hundred hand effect blade fury
<Elidroth> It's hard enough to make the current ADPS people desirable without adding more confusion and dilution to the mix by adding more classes
<Brogett> We (monk and rog) both have HH proc AA now, which offsets (not replaces) the dps from a beastlord. I'm thinking maybe a crit-rate proc, or a crit-dmg multiplier proc.
<Elidroth> there will be no more Hundred Hands effects given out right now
<Elidroth> period
<Brogett> Hard enough to make them desireable? Shaman are impossible to recruit!
<Knotsure> Monks- I know its not a dps thing, but how about an increase in the ranks of Hastened Purification of Body.
<Tharkis> brogett needs a 'summon Tharkis' AA
<Elidroth> 2hb damage is something that can be improved, but if you're looking for parity across all weapon types that just isn't likely to happen
* Brogett pickpockets Tharkis' epic
<Brael> is there chance to see uprade to Virulent Venom ? AA now we have is so outdated.
<Songsa> not hundred hand effect, different effect but same kind of AA (proc based with effect like mini shm epic for example) to lower our dpendancy
<Nire> is hundred hands/blade fury similar?
<Elidroth> Brael - No on Virulent Venom. If I had my way, I'd remove or overhaul that ability completely. It wasn't created very intelligently
<Brogett> Identical Nire
<Nire> ah. ok.
<Obiziana> Eli - Not parity, but maybe some improved damage and utility. One thought that was tossed around would be an AA to improve the dps to a level closer to 2h2 and maybe either a defensive proc to go along with it or an agro proc. The direction that 2hb seems to have gone for monks is when we're tanking, this might improve our ability to hold agro with a 2hb.
<Elidroth> I'm fine with adding more damage to 2hb
<Elidroth> I'd rather do it passively though
<Obiziana> sounds good
<Obiziana> THank you
<Szan> monks - for improving our sustained dps, how about an AA that increases our accuracy
<Khoza> Monk - Would like to see an passive AA version of the Tiger's Balance discipline. The damage would have to be lower, of course, but would like to see this happen, NOT linked to our normal specials, just proc off of regular melee.
<Nire> Rogues-battle leap aa for rogues but call it shadow leap, forget the position behind mob maybe increase piercing dmg stackable or similar to pinpoint defiencies, maybe even put it on same timer but lower the debuff duration on it so its a choice either pinpoint defeciences or shadow leap?
<Elidroth> Szan - I'm ok with that. Accuracy increases are hard to quantify as to what's useful
<Elidroth> but I'm ok with working on that
<Daremok1> can you do an improved crane stance aa to make the range of it damage more constant and hasten crane stance to lower it's reuse timer
<Brogett> Can take a look at rogue Razor's Edge maybe
<Elidroth> Nire - I guarantee it'll never get used
<Brogett> (as an example accuracy boost)
<Obiziana> Monks - Heal of Brithrax/Stonefoot/Kick Mastery - more ranks. Flying kick is our primary button mash, can we get it to do more damage?
<Elidroth> you're doing it again
<Nire> I'd use it on Zek=P
<Obiziana> sorry :)
<Elidroth> Sorry, but I'm not going to create abilities specifically for the pvp server
<Songsa> rogues twisted chance discipline could use more ranks of hastened twisted chance to decrease the reuse timer (14min atm) (question not answered yet)
<Elidroth> I'll look at it Songsa
<Elidroth> not a no
<Brael> 2 more ranks would be nice
<Brael> push it down to 10 mins
<Brogett> Rogues - Hastened Stealth AA reduces timer on Hide but not on Sneak. Given both drop during attacks and we hit both again to rehide, is there a chance of making it reduce both abilities (or giving us hastened sneak)?
<Songsa> also rogue sustained dps could be bumped a bit, currently ourt burn is good but our sustained dps is not top especially when soloing with the non upgarde of anatomy
<Tharkis> I have one rogue thing i was asked to bring up but it's not really AA per say, but it doesnt really fall under any other category. Was asked if rog evade could be changed so you could use the hide button while attacking and if attacking it just did evade, instead of having to have a hotkey /autoattack off /hide /autoattack on to evade since it's very lag/ping dependant on working without
<Tharkis> losing a lot of dps.
<Brogett> Lag breaks hide too infact. I have an audio trigger for when it succeeds, as so often it just silently fails somewhere
<Nire> rogues- Upgrade to throwing discipline or additionally add throwing aa's to make it competive if behind a mob. I can't remember the name of the discipline bc I frankly never use it bc its pretty worthless as it stands...
<Brogett> But tbh the aggro meter shows how pointless evade is in the modern EQ now
<rylgon> sorry im late did i miss anything important
<Elidroth> I'm getting tired of saying this
* Nire didn't mean to hit enter yet.
<Copyright> You guys are overloading him with questions to be honest
<Beezy> yall are gonna have to slow down
<Elidroth> if you don't stop and let me answer the previous questions.. we're not going to get anything done
<Nire> well we are a buncha fast moving button smashers , straight dps is use to moving quickly, but I do apoligize.
<Elidroth> Nire - So you're saying you're not capable on controlling yourself?
<Elidroth> When I've asked several times now?
<Elidroth> Khoza - I like the idea of a passive sort of Tiger's Balance, but yeah the damage would have to be reduced quite a bit
<Elidroth> the problem I worry about is if you load up too many procs, then things get VERY unpredictable as to what will trigger
<Daremok1> how would it stack with the active one?
<Elidroth> That's another very good question
<Nire> Eh no, I was just saying that to crack a joke and ease tension. Ive thought my pace has been relatively slow. But I apoligize if I offended. You can actually look at how infrequent my comments have been. You have my apoligies though if you think I've been out of line.
<Elidroth> I'll add Sneak to Hastened Stealth
<Brogett> Thanks Eli
<Elidroth> I'm ok with more ranks of Stonefoot and Kick Mastery
<Elidroth> Changing Rogue Evade is not something I can contorl
<Elidroth> control even
<Elidroth> Songsa - I'm not going to get wrapped up in a discussion about people's solo dps. EQ is not a solo-centric game for the majority of classes
<Brael> can you let us know when your taking more questions elid Thanks
<Songsa> solo was just an example
<Elidroth> Throwing just isn't and hasn't ever been intended to be a primary mode of dps for a rogue
<Nire> but what about deadly strikes?
<Elidroth> What about it?
<Nire> it was like it was going to be a form of dps. but then stopped?
<Nire> I mean we have throwing aa's/a throwing discipline but not real throwing dps. Just kinda of thought it was on the back burner waiting to be upgraded...
<Elidroth> no
<Copyright> Monk - Dont want to come across in the wrong fashion, asked a bit ago, just in referece to added ranks of our extended discipline lines, crystal palm, heel of kanji, speed focus, or more hastened AAs in any of the above lines to bring the longer reuses down towards a 10min ish reuse. Ironfist in particular is still quite a long reuse and does not jive very well with crane stance which is what
<Copyright> it is primarily used with.
<Copyright> I believe Ironfist currently is still a 30min reuse with max AA in the hastened line for that
<Elidroth> I don't see any reason to bring them down that far
<Copyright> Not looking to bring them down that far as I am not sure what you would be willing to do to them or not to be honest
<Nire> I mean I just don't see why if it wasn't intended to be a primary mode of dps to give the rogue's a unique crit message for throwing and then give rogues the aa's and a discipline without it initially being intended to be a form of decent dps...but I could be wrong and way out in left field...any chance for more discussion on this subject?
<Copyright> just looking for an overall increase in sustained, burst, etc
<Copyright> Im just lobbying to get something addressed in those areas is all
<Elidroth> If you're not looking to bring abilities down to a number, then stop asking for that number
<Elidroth> this isn't some meta-game where you ask for something ridiculous in hopes I'll give you the actual number you want
<Brogett> Rogue - (from Safehouse thread): any chance of a lifetap poison to help offset some of the incoming dps on raids or solo work? Obviously less than pure dps ones.
<Khoza> Ironfist is the worst off of those. 20 minutes would be a big improvement. (Currently 30 minutes.)
<Copyright> Monk dps is severely lacking across the board in both burst and sustained
<Elidroth> I'm ok with some hastened Ironfist
<Elidroth> Lifetap Poison wouldn't be my area
<Synyster> CAN U GIVE MONKS ANYTHING TO GIVE THEIR BASELINE DPS AN INCREASE?
<Elidroth> ask Aristo
<Synyster> sorry about caps
<Elidroth> Yes.. I can
<Brael> for rogue's Absorbing Agent AA?
<Synyster> thats truely what they need
<Synyster> their base dps output just isnt enough
<Synyster> i dont know enough about a monk to plead their dps case but i do know that they dont do enough and hastened discs wont help too much
<Elidroth> Brael - huh?
<Brael> We curretly have 2 items in game that allow us to use Absorbing Agent 1 s\is 40s 1 is 2 mins is there chance we can see AA for just spell itself
<Daremok1> syn is right with eye of storm lasting 2 min we can always have some disc running just our dps is too low
<Songsa> absorbing agent is a clicky to boost rogue poison dps btw
<Brogett> It can't be fixed with weapon ratios as beastlords are matching you already.
<Nire> Shadowsilk belt from Underquarry has the click
<Elidroth> let me think about that one
<Nire> Rogue aa illusion- Shadowman illusion. Just weapons visible?
<Khoza> Monk - Question from earlier. "Knotsure Monks- I know its not a dps thing, but how about an increase in the ranks of Hastened Purification of Body."
<Copyright> Agree with that
<Elidroth> you're already at 12 min
<Elidroth> I don't really see a reason to take it lower than that
<Khoza> Do you see a reason not to, though? *innocent face*
<Ngreth> he hates you
<Khoza> He wouldn't be the first.
* Tharkis snickers
<Copyright> oof
<Ngreth> (not really... just kidding there)
<Nire> So I take it ists a no go on the Shadowman illusion then? SOmething most of us rogues have been wanting to find for over a decade=P
<Aggememnon> Its basically useful once per reasonable lenght event. I would not see the harm in shaving a min or 2 off it. Doubt it make any real difference
<Songsa> everyone got illusions now, i dont care anymore personnally
<Aggememnon> Just saves you from a curer not paying attention to grp chat
<Elidroth> Nire - Somehow I get the feeling that should be edited to say "Something most of us PVP Rogues have been wanting..."
<Nire> lol
<Nire> nooooo.
<Elidroth> we'll see..
<Nire> well I'm the king of zek so I mean maybe but I think it would be cool, maybe give it a visage effect so we don't have to rely on chanters to get that extra attack buff. Maybe increased dps or something while in a duration illusion nothing permanent.
<Songsa> primary concern of rogues is the huge dependancy on helpers to do decent dps.
<Songsa> bers, bst, shm and bard needed for us to be competitive its really hard to achieve in many guilds
<Brogett> Monks and zerkers in the same boat, which is why I suggested procced mini-shm epic.
* Sarayu waves
<Elidroth> some classes are always going to be more dependent upon others.. it's just the nature of the game
<Nire> I mean theifs eyes does improve accuracy and maybe adding a dmg modifier in there as well.
<Nire> is that possible elidroth?
<Songsa> can lower a bit dependacy though maybe with some AA
<Elidroth> the problem with that in general, is when we do that, then when those classes have that support, things go completely crazy the other direction
<Sarayu> The problem is we don't want to become self-dependent and lose the burn bonus those other classes provide.
<Songsa> not if effect dpoesnt stack
<Szan> but if its little proc buffs that dont stack with the support classes version wouldnt that help ?
<Khoza> Monk - Drunken Monkey Style is a disc from Underfoot, which hasn't been upgraded since. The AA, Zan Fi's Whistle, serves a similar purpose, but lacks the flying kick mod. (Drunken Monkey Flying Kick Boost, part of the drunken monkey style buff, adds 529 damage.) Could we get this added to Zan Fi's Whistle?
<Elidroth> I'm ok with adding it to Zan Fi's Whistle but I'll have to look at how much
<Brael> rogue- new aa that will give us increases dmg to poison procs maybe 3% increase?
<Brael> doesnt have to be 3% just example
<Songsa> 3% is low imo itsd
<Brael> example
<Songsa> its 200 dmg on a proc
<Nire> rogues- Shadowstep, like leap of faith, hate step, directional. Call it leap of shadows
<Elidroth> Can't really increase damage on poisons generally.. I'd need to do it on specific poisons
<Songsa> virulent venom AA may be upgrazded for that
<Elidroth> I've already talked about that AA
<Brael> ya but already said no to that
<Nire> Elidroth already doesn't like that.
<Elidroth> it's created poorly
<Songsa> ok missed that
<Brael> is there way to rework that AA?
<Elidroth> it does things it shouldn't do
<Brael> that is actally up to date?
<Songsa> non dps relative more ranks of speed of scoundrel possible?
<Elidroth> It's a percentage based ability.. it'll never be out of date
<Elidroth> no Songsa
<Sarayu> I'm not really sure of the process exactly, Eli, but have you decided whether to look at monk sustained, monk burst, or both?
<Songsa> offhand backstab was mentionned also? any chance?
<Elidroth> no
<Elidroth> not possible
<Ngreth> Also... not to distract... I have spoken on the shadowman topic. We will not give rogues an un-breakable invis to other players.
<Elidroth> don't have any way to make that happen
<Nire> well its not invis NGreth, weapons are visibile.
<Songsa> running out of ideas to help our AA count ;)
<Elidroth> Nire - unequip them
<Elidroth> regardless.. Ngreth hath spoken
<Elidroth> :)
<Ngreth> then walk behind, unseable, equip and backstab
<Nire> well giive them an illusion based ornamentation so you can't unequip something that can always be seen=P
<Elidroth> NO
<Nire> hehe k=P
<Voodoman> Is "no" like "yes"?
=-= Voodoman was booted from #EQAAChat by Elidroth (yes.)
<Nire> I was looking at it more of like a visage attk based illusion for increased dmg during the illusions duration...
<Nire> possibly 15 seconds.
<Brael> is there some way to make AA that will fix the Resist checks for Our simple Mark Line? with raid mobs it pretty much resisted all the time
<Brogett> Rogue AA fluffing - reduce timer on Purge Poison (30min ish) to say 10min like monk. Still once per event and never used ;-P
<Elidroth> example?
<Elidroth> Brogett - I can look at that
<Songsa> an AA that could add some increased dmg modifier? help on sustained but doesnt increase our burn.
<Nire> Shadowman illusion visage Songsa=P Thats what I was getting at=P
<Songsa> ehe without illu =)
<Daremok1> can you do an improved crane stance to make it more consistant damage it can range from 30k to 100k and maybe a hasten crane stance to lower it's reuse timer
<Elidroth> Daremok - I'll look at Crane but those are really Aristo's abilities and I want to make sure he's ok with reuse changes
<Elidroth> not a no, but I'll need to talk to him about them
<Elidroth> We really try to avoid messing with each other's work when we can help it
<Copyright> Monk - Possibly the addition of another rank of Infusion of Thunder?
<Elidroth> that doesn't really help sustained dps though
<Sarayu> Monk - mentioned by Daremok, but the spread on our damage is crazy, or attack isn't weighted heavily enough. 8000 attack on crane spreads from 150k to 600k Stunning Kick from 15k-106k
<Copyright> Yea, depending on the length of fight and such for sure, would be more in the burst category
<Sarayu> Monk - sustained could be improved from base attack increase, which has probably been mentioned
<Elidroth> Sarayu - Welcome to the RNG
<Sarayu> RNG can be lessened by making minimum hit higher, without changing the maximum?
<Elidroth> that's not how those abilities work
<Sarayu> Well if making the minimum makes the maximum higher, that's +sustained on Flying Kick, Stunning Kick, Shadewalkers, Crane, etc.
<Nire> Ok Elidroth, after much consideration and diliberation. As opposed to the shadowman illusion why not do a dmg mod aa visage for a Drachnid?
<Sarayu> I'm glad that rogue consideration and deliberation is geared toward a visage illusion instead of base dps :P
<Nire> =P
<Brael> Elid sorry to repeat might got lost in others question .Smiple Mark AA that gives us better chance for Simple mark line to land so wont get resisted so much on raid type mobs?
<Elidroth> one sec Brael
<Brael> np
<Elidroth> I've got something I can try with that.. but the problem is the spell effect I'd use is a random 1-x% chance
<Elidroth> I can't just say 'improves resist check by 10%
<Elidroth> it'd be 1-10% randomly
<Brael> np ty just really gets resist alot and it being on 5 min timer and resisted every 5 mins is awful
<Sarayu> Elidroth, I know persistence can usually come across as annoying, but the main cry from the community at monkly-business and monks throughout the game is obviously for more dps. We've been behind since House of Thule or earlier. Is the purpose of this channel to convince you that we're incredibly far behind, or to spitball ways to improve based...
<Khoza> Oh, speaking of resists. Stunning Kick and Echo of XXX line have been almost impossible to land lately. Do the new ranks need adjusted, or is this something about the mobs?
<Sarayu> on a coding system that the public isn't familiar with or understand?
<Nadril> Good afternoon fellow monks and rogues.
<Khoza> well, maybe I exaggerate with 'impossible' but they both get 'avoided your ability' more often than they used to.
<Elidroth> Sarayu - The purpose of these discussions is to find out where you feel the class needs to go and discuss any specific AA ideas you may have to help that movement
<Nire> Rogues - Drachnid aa illusion, short duration, increased base dmg output and increased poison dmg output while in that form...
<Elidroth> probably just a resist adjustment is needed
<Songsa> rogue etherium blade AA new ranks with higher proc rate possible?
<Maereax> I slack!
<Elidroth> It's already at 12% chance
<Elidroth> on all piercing attacks
<Songsa> trying to find something to help our dps without increasing our burst atm
<Songsa> think we can go in that direction?
<Sarayu> Elidroth - Looking just at AAs, it's really just more ranks of substantial increases to passive H2H hits.
<Elidroth> it's an option
<Sarayu> Not necessarily Fist of Steel, but something similar to Heel of Brithax geared exclusively toward improving our sustained H2H attacks.
<Sarayu> Monkly-business has suggested more triple attack, but I don't think a couple more ranks of triple attack are going to get us where we need to be :/
<Songsa> increased %dmg modifier type of AA would go in that direction (more sustained not more burn)
<Elidroth> I haven't played my monk in a few months.. what's your triple attack at now?
<Maereax> 525
<Copyright> ^
<Elidroth> yeah.. not going to increase that
<Nadril> I am not sure if this was brought up, but I know alot of Monks and myself included would really like an upgrade to our Cloud of Fists disc. The pets are now green cons with the level increase.
<Elidroth> discs are not my area
<Sarayu> Then we've narrowed down how we can improved at least.
<Khoza> More Rapid Strikes AAs, then? Hasn't seen love in quite a while.
<Maereax> We're suffering on raids. Put simply, raids don't have a reason to bring us along
<Daremok1> yeah why i asked about improving master our to low rampage group members take
<Daremok1> master aura even
<Sarayu> We're not going to get off the bench because we lower rampage damage.
<Maereax> I think the large majority of us would agree that we don't want to move into a utility role - masters aura is exactly that, and improving it will get us stuck into tank groups again, which isn't where we want to be at all
<Elidroth> yeah.. was just looking at Rapid Strikes
<Sarayu> We'll get in the raid when we can beat a Shadowknight's whose burning (sorry comparison)
<Daremok1> not sure about some raids you can't even send in any melee because ramp is so bad
<Elidroth> I need a list of the raids with crazy ramp damage
<Elidroth> but send that in PM please
<Elidroth> not here
<Nire> So elidroth, what say you my lord about the Drachnid visage for rogues? as opposed to the shadowman? since that would be too munchy... any consideration or thought about it?
<Maereax> Eli - can we pleaswe get imitate death lowered to 30 seconds? It's still at two minutes
<Sarayu> He said no to 30 second ID
<Sarayu> mt
<Elidroth> NO
<illa> two hours and you guys are already chaining repeat questions
<Maereax> Ok, can I ask why?
<Elidroth> because a 30 second fade is not going to happen
<rylgon> Monk - Group mend maybe? give a bit more utility
<Khoza> Please, no
<Brael> Do you want a Pm elid of Ae ramp where melee cant stay alive in thats pretty crazy in pm?
<Sarayu> Monks, please /join monk so we can stop being idiots in the main channel
<Elidroth> PM on forums please
<Brael> k
<Copyright> channel is #Monk btw
<Maereax> I understand you don't like comparsons, but I don't know how else to put this - shadowknights, one of the tank classes (not a pull class) and not THE FD class in EverQuest (monks would be THE FD class) have a 30s reuse FD/Fade, but we can't? is there a reason behind that?
<Copyright> so if you are a monk in this channel and want to know what we may have asked or havent type /join #Monk
<Maereax> We're not asking for a bard fade, we're asking for our FD/Fade to be down to 30s, we still have to FD and stand
<Questor> Elidroth - how do you feel Rogues are dps wise these days? Are you open to adding more dps, or would rather see utility ?
<Songsa> good question to know what kind of aa we can request
<Elidroth> you can request anything
* Nire slaps Nire around a bit with a large trout
<Khoza> Monk - 1 rank increase to Extended Speed Focus, Crystalpalm, Heel of Kanji, and Scaledfist AA?
<Elidroth> I'll look at it
<Songsa> more ranks of massive strike AA? its an important AA for rogues
<Nire> Elidroth, I don't know if I've overstayed my welcome but was speaking to Ngreth about it, back to the Drachnid aa which would possibly being a base dmg increase and poison or one or the other for a short duration like visage...
<Beezy> lolol
<Elidroth> you got new ranks already
<Songsa> i know but most new AA we propose got a "no" answer so trying existing ones
<Elidroth> you already received upgrades to that specific ability for this expansion
<illa> btw, SK's death effigy (fade fd) is on a 2 minute reuse and there are no hastened AAs for it, so SKs do not have a 30s fade
<Sarayu> Elidroth - I'm trying to steer clear of "more this" "more this" "new this" "new this" on monks because we don't need anything new. We just need our normally used discs somehow recalculated or looked at. Extended AAs are great... but if you put all of our discs back-to-back and run them for full duration, we're burning for more than 5 minutes.
<Elidroth> Discs are in Aristo's court
<Songsa> asp blade and simple mark are on same timer, any chance to change that?
<Elidroth> anyway.. I'm going to lunch now
<Sarayu> However, those 5 minutes, with full ADPS, averages to about 25k parse.
<Elidroth> I'll be back in an hour or so

Nedrom
12-17-2012, 10:56 PM
wow is it just me or was that chat a complete train wreck?

Mris
12-17-2012, 11:08 PM
<Szan> join #Monk
<Copyright> ^ any monks in chat type /join #Monk
<Sarayu> monks type /join #monk
<Nire> anyone have any logs from the cleric /druid chat
<Relient> half the logs were posted in veterans forum
<Relient> by crystilla
<Crystilla> Nire, did you need the cleric/shaman or the druid/beastlord chat? there was no cleric/druid chat
<Nire> aye
<Nire> the cleric shaman I think got guildies asking for it
<Crystilla> .. which did you need, both are on the Vet forums
<Nire> ah ok great.
<Nire> The cleric shaman
<Crystilla> http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/index.php?threads/cleric-shaman-irc-chats-12-12.2294/
<Crystilla> The summary of every question and its answer is there. (The entire logs weren't posted itself)
<Nire> hehe k
<Nire> thnx.
<Beimeith> I have a full log of the druid and beastlord chat
<Beimeith> whoever wanted it
<Keriath> Rogue's getting mend I hear?
<Keriath> jkjk
<Brael> ha
<Copyright> no, but they do want a drachnid illusion like SK visage, just sayin!
<Stonescales> would like the walls removed from the guild lobby hear the GH entrances since people stand in teh dorways !
<Bloodydagger> Crane Stance or bust
<Songsa> well one rogue want that =)
<Copyright> lol
<Keriath> lawl
<Bloodydagger> go big or go home!
<Brael> i just want to go home been in dog house sleepin for week
<Nire> Hey Raph
<Keriath> So, a Rogue type Shadowstep behind mob been discussed? I know it was a big request on the SafeHouse forums.
<Brael> yes
<Keriath> the verdict?
<Copyright> think he turned it down iirc
<Keriath> What was the reasononing?
<Brael> he said he couldnt do behind the mob per say
<Beezy> he cant control where you land
<Beezy> is what he said
<Beezy> he has no control over it
<Keriath> But but, the Belikos in Convorteum raid do it. ><
<savager> probably couldn't control which way you face when you land either
<Brael> he said no to one and yes to one
<Khoza> Keriath, I'd guess that's because NPCs auto adjust to follow a target anyway. PCs would have to adjust themselves
<Forcallen> you guys still havent asked for 60 sec extension to twisted? or perma buff rogues fury yet? tisk tisk
<Copyright> btw any monks in channel type /join #Monk
<Songsa> would not match necro sustained still ;)
<Khoza> He blanket turned down HH effects already
<Stonescales> #monk
<Forcallen> think outside the box then
<Forcallen> eyes that shoot lazers but blind you for 3 secs
<Khoza> LP? Is that you?
<illa> maybe monks can get a 30s fade if they just ask again
<Bloodydagger> sounds like a zerkkin aa tbh
<Forcallen> assassanite a raid mob for 100million damage once very 15 minutes
<Forcallen> every
<Bloodydagger> gotta give it a name tho
<illa> and fill the debuffs slots with 1dmg/tick dots
<Forcallen> zerkkins rage
<Bloodydagger> i can dig it
<Forcallen> yes dont forget twisted shank upgrades
<Copyright> I was thinking a capabiliy for monks called Baby Jesus, turns us into baby jesus illusion doing 100% crit damage and making us invulnerable to all incoming damage
<Forcallen> and to ask for 5 minute buff that increases dot crit amount and crit rate by 150%
<Forcallen> like druids got
<illa> how about just the baby part
<Obiziana> How about Baby Jerus?
<Caudyr> crap i ended up forgetting about the AA chat - is it rogue or monk time atm? haha
<Khoza> It's lunch time. After that, it's please-don't-spam-Eli time
<Bloodydagger> even better
<Bloodydagger> lunch time
<Caudyr> which doesn't answer my question at all =p
<Caudyr> well
<Caudyr> it kinda does~
<Bloodydagger> got em
<Beezy> terakathis is not welcome
<Songsa> for me its bed time soon
<Songsa> wish u luck guys
<Songsa> eli should be back soon if we can trust his eta =)
<Jerus> 07<Obiziana> 02How about Baby Jerus?01.......! lol
<Qwestmode> calm down charizard
<Jerus> lol
<Voodoman> EVERYBODY CALM DOWN
<Qwestmode> vdm pls
<Trazz> buffs plz.. kk
<Voodoman> mgb death bloom please elidroth pls
<Qwestmode> mgb force people to follow emotes
<Qwestmode> elidroth pls
<Voodoman> god i would love that
<Trazz> impossible
* Xislaben FD's
<Trazz> can't fix stupid
<Voodoman> recruit this uy
<Voodoman> guy*
<Bloodydagger> aa that auto balances
<Bloodydagger> amirite
<Trazz> Should be special testing available in EQ *recruitment* wise. So we can throw Emotes at someone to see if they can follow them.. I mean seriously.. We all played Simon Says when we were young.. Maybe some havent yet.
<Jerus> best idea of the aa chats so far, is "aa summon corner for tanking"
<Bloodydagger> ^
<Caudyr> hahahaha
<Caudyr> "AA Fix corners so mobs don't warp when in them"
<Caudyr> or...
<Copyright> AA Negate pet push
<Caudyr> "AA summon door to fight mob in" since my guild has a propensity for doing that
<illa> no one has asked for swarm pets yet?
<illa> aa summon torch
<Caudyr> ...please god no....lol
<illa> to put dragons on
<Elenwyyi> swarm pets that cast remote manaflux?
<Bloodydagger> swarm pets aww yeh
<Bloodydagger> swarm pets that cast knockback
<Jerus> i'll find and punch them in the face if anyone asks for more swarm pets =b
<illa> swarm pets that proc swarm pet copies
<illa> that proc 500pt runes on you
<illa> that doom into swarm pets
<Jerus> recursive swarm pets?
<illa> BREAKING NEW GROUNDS
<illa> and servers
<Xislaben> 4a new debuff AA that decreases inc melee dmg and increases inc spell dmg? ;)
<Rasputyn> swarm pets that proc AE charm and turn PCs into more swarm pets
<illa> -hp charm, sometimes it's too hard to kill charmed players
<Elidroth> and I'm back
<Beezy> Welcome Back
<Brael> wb
<Keriath> wb
<Trazz> wb Elid
<Brael> have good lunch?
<Questor> can we get a recap of what was under consideration for Rogues please
<Elidroth> I did.. I drank much alcohol!
<Trazz> lol...
<Elidroth> kidding
<Voodoman> sooo about that mgb death bloom!
<Khoza> Don't worry, Eli, rogues make me want to drink,too.
<illa> <Voodoman> sooo about that mgb death bloom!
<Voodoman> illa wants mgb druid bloom
<Trazz> Ready for the requests/questions? Put the martini down!
<Elidroth> yeah
<Trazz> Monks Collective Question Reuse timer modification on Moving Mountains. 20-25 seconds instead of 30? Also modification to the range from 200 to 250. Resounding Please!
<Elidroth> I'm ok with the change in timer but why the range?
<Sarayu> East Wastes
<Sarayu> And other huge zones.
<Copyright> Large zones aye
<Sarayu> We use Distant Strike solely to get a mob within MM range
<Trazz> 200 Range is right on the edge of agro in some zones.. Would be class defining for range outside of agro in group of mob situations.
<Elidroth> I don't know any zones that have agro range that high
<Khoza> It's not just aggro range. It's also how long pulls take in large, barren zones. This would speed things up when we have to run so far to find mobs.
<Khoza> Mobs being spread fairly thin in such places.
<Nire> May I re-ask a Question Elidroth, I don't think I ever got a response from you? let me know when to ask?thx
<Copyright> Yar, since its been implemented it has now become our primary pulling utility
<Copyright> increase in range makes it more useful in outdoor scenarios
<Beezy> I bet I can guess what Nire is going to ask for!
<Nire> no you can't!=P
<Elidroth> except for specific circumstances most agro range is 100 or less
<Beezy> lol
<Elidroth> If you're having to run a long way to get mobs, then more than likely you're killing too quickly and we need to increase mob hp
<Elidroth> and increase xp as well
<Elidroth> heh
<Trazz> lol
<Copyright> well the mob density in EW is pretty low considering the overall ground you have to cover
<Trazz> If we already have distant strike at 300.. no reason not to have MM at 250?
<Sarayu> or even 300
<Copyright> but thats just a more specific scenario there
<Khoza> EW is a perfect example. There's all of 2 camps with good density. Other need to grab roamers, which are spread far apart.
<Voodoman> snow bunnies Q,Q
<Elidroth> Interesting reasoning Trazz.. but no
<Nire> Dear Santa Elidroth, I would like a red ryder Bee-bee gun and confirmation on thought to the aa Drachnid illusion+base dmg increase and poison procs.The visage for rogues. Thnx. Sincerly yours, Nire.
<Beezy> I knew it
<Trazz> Decrease in timer?
<Keriath> Oh, you guys were srs?
<Beezy> lol yes
<Beezy> keriath he has been asking for that all day
* Nire nudges a plate of whatever Elidroth's favorite cookes are towards him
<Fatbuk> no, he was asking for shadowman before that
<Nire> er cookies
<Nire> Yes but I understand the reasoning behind no shadowman
<Brael> Elid 2 questions for you for new aa if you can look into itAssassins Onslaught increase amount damage that is done by assuslt ,battery
<Brael> Onslaught is done or double Onslaught .grants rogue a chance to attempt Double Assuslt battery ,onslaught ,Something that could give us
<Brael> Onslaught is done or double Onslaught .grants rogue a chance to attempt Double Assuslt battery ,onslaught ,Something that could give us
<Brael> opps
<Keriath> I don't know how other Rogues feel, but I'm sort of not liking the fact that Rogues are exclusively tied to two Daggers to maximize DPS. =p
<Brael> chance to double onslaught
<Maereax> @Eli - Collective monk request. Can we get an AA line similar to Rogues Massive Strikes that procs off of Flying Kick? It would >help< bring our special attacks up to relative worthwhile-ness and help bring monks closer to where they should be. We figured like 25% chance to proc off a F-Kick and 10% chance to proc off itself. Commonly agreed name was Bycicle kick
<Trazz> Schwinn button...
<Beezy> Gonna have to slow down on the asking of questions or he will never be able to respond to anything
<Beezy> Brael just sent you a PM on here also
<Elidroth> Trying to figure out all the abilities that would have to be included in an Assassin's Onslaught type ability
<Nire> onslaught already can proc massive strke
<Nire> and get double onslaughts in.
<Nire> I hit a mob for 84k three times on it the other night.
<Brael> yes but doesnt do double onsalught
<Nire> with a 30-40k follow up. But I'm definitely not opposed to A double onslaught=P
<Taoden> that's massive triggering those other 2 big one's.
<Elidroth> huh?
<Nire> aye, Actually what rogues could really use is a raise in backstab skill cap
<Elidroth> complete thoughts please Brael
<Brael> What im asking for is some type of aa the will do double Onslaughts like double backstab and tripple backstab work
<Elidroth> hmm
<Brael> thats psssive
<Brael> or aa that will increase amout of damge of just 1 onslaught itself elid
<Brael> thats passive
<Brael> either or
<Elidroth> I can't do that
<Brael> the dmg part?
<Elidroth> that'd have to be a new version of those abilities
<Brael> or the double?
<Elidroth> the double
<Brael> what about passive aa that increase damage itself?
<Brael> not asking for you to make it crit or do 100k to 180k dmg
<Brael> but decent increase
<arrested> what about giving monks a reduced timer on second spire like 3 ranks at 45-60 seonds a rank?
<Elidroth> I think I can do that Brael
<Brael> thank you
<Elidroth> What are ALL of the abilities in that line?
<Elidroth> is it just Assault & Onslaught?
<Brael> yes
<Brael> i can pm you those
<Taoden> INcursion is the new one
<Nire> ya
<Nire> Incursion assault battery onslaught
<Nire> I think are the four?
<Brael> yes
<Elidroth> PM them to me
<Brael> i will
<Brael> right now
<Bloodydagger> Elidroth - Any chance you could possibly bring back Chaotic Stab from the Luclin AA line and give it another rank or two?
<Sarayu> Was there any confirmation on including +H2H in Punch Mastery AA line?
<Elidroth> I'll work on something for a Flying Kick proc
<Keriath> Is thier a way to increase Backstab reuse time? Make it a short duration buff that goes in song window that procs off something we currently use?
<Bloodydagger> Chaotic Stab - Ability will allow you to do minimal backstab damage on your backstab attempt, even if you are not positioned behind the monster.
<Bloodydagger> hasn't been upgraded since Luclin
<Elidroth> There's nothing that can be upgraded
<Elidroth> it's a yes/no
<Bloodydagger> a few ranks
<Bloodydagger> is what i mean
<Bloodydagger> like 1 or 2 more ranks in chaotic stab
<Elidroth> next
<Nire> You never answered my earlier question=(
<Elidroth> The H2H in punch mastery is something I need to evaluate
<Maereax> Monk special attacks - can they be brought up to be worth using?
<Elidroth> Not until you tell me what you're referring to. I've asked that people be specific in their questions
<Maereax> Flying kick, mostly. It's such a minimal portion of our dps. It's a class defining ability, like rogues backstab, but it accounts for such a minimal portion of our total damage
<Nire> I'm referring to what we were discussing when we spoke about the shadowman, I spoke with ngreth and we both came up with it instead of being shadowman make it drachnid, increasing base dmg and poison procs.
<Nire> for a short duration
<Nire> Because shadowman would be too OP especially on Zek.
<Trazz> What about %+ bonus on Flying Kick Criticals? Something dramatic to boost Monk DPS?
<Sarayu> We parsed earlier, monk accuracy was about 80%, melee critical was at 20%
<Trazz> 80% with buffs
<Maereax> 76% base
<Elidroth> it's not anything close to being comparable to backstab
<Maereax> It's not? Isn't it supposed to be?
<Elidroth> and just because Rogues get a high percentage of damage from one ability doesn't mean you should
<Trazz> You said our focus should be pure dps. We are gearing that way
<Nire> Rogues are the blades of sony, Deal with it!=P
<Copyright> considering they are parsing substantially more and we are equally flagged as pure dps id imagine that our parse dps should be comparable
<Khoza> Bad comparison. It should be a greater part of our own DPS, though. The "Legendary Fly Kick" is less than legends make it out to be
<Copyright> I would consider our synergy ability more comparable to rogue backstab, but we arent getting a reduction in timer on that
<Deadbroke> How about an aa that reduces our cool down time on Monk, Synergy's?
<Sarayu> Nire, let the monks talk, you can ask about Drachnid visage afterward.
<Khoza> "Legendary Flying Kick" that is
<Maereax> I'm sorry, let me clarify -I'm not saying that it should be comparable to their Backstab DPS. I'm saying that it should be worth using, and at this point, it's barely toeing that line
<arrested> or what about an aa line allowing us to use eightstep and synergy at the same time even if its only for 60-120 seconds
<Elidroth> so don't use it
<Elidroth> then what happens to your dps?
<Maereax> It... goes down
<Trazz> slightly
<Deadbroke> I apologize as I have not been here, so no chance of getting an AA to reduce our Synergy's?
<Nire> he said that before he went on lunch
<Sarayu> Elidroth, we're just trying to spitball ways for monks to improve. We've pretty much gone through every single AA that we have.
<Elidroth> the problem comes when people speak in hyperbole
<Brael> Elid i sent you that Pm sir
<Elidroth> saying something is 'worthless' or 'barely worth using' says to me 'why spend time adjusting it then'
<Elidroth> you guys have A LOT of abilities that affect Flying Kick
<Deadbroke> what is being said is worthless?
<Sarayu> Well, without hyperbole, Punch Mastery is almost worthless.
<Sarayu> Yes, you said you would look at it, but the only time we use those abilities is in Line with Wu, and mostly we're hoping they don't fire and we get Flying Kick instead.
<Maereax> I'm sorry, I think we're getting our signals crossed. It's not my intent to compare us to rogues in any way. All that I'm saying is that Flying Kick was one of the class defining abilities when creating a Monk. Necromancers get DoTs and pets. Clerics heal. Monks have Feign Death, Mend and Flying Kick. It's what we're known for. Over the years, other forms of DPS have increased by large
<Maereax> amounts and flying kick hasn't. It's been stagnated greatly, and since we've exhausted most of our other AA's and been denied increases on them, this is one of the remaining options.
<Sarayu> 65k parse, H2H was 42k, Kick was 14k
<Sarayu> Strike was 4k
<Elidroth> so Flying Kick was roughly 21.5% of your DPS in that parse
<Elidroth> That HARDLY seems worthless
<Elidroth> from one single ability
<Sarayu> Note kick was 14k because of a 250k Crane Stance
<Elidroth> so?
<Maereax> I just ran a ~10 minute parse of nothing but autoattacking and pressing flying kick on cooldown. No discs/AA's whatsoever. My damage by type breaks down like this - Punch - 93.9%, Kick 4.8% (I believe this is flying kick, round kick and kick combined), strike .07%, dirdamage .06%
<arrested> so how about an aa line to reduce crane stance
<Maereax> The reason that Sarayu's numbers are so high is because on that parse, crane stance, synergy, kick, flying kick AND round kick are all grouped into kicks
<Elidroth> ok
<Sarayu> We're trying to increase burst, not sustained.
<Maereax> We're JUST talking about the button called Flying Kick
<Sarayu> @arrested
<Elidroth> and all of those abilities use the skill Flying Kick
<Elidroth> I cannot increase damage on the skill Flying Kick without also increasing the damage from those abilities
<Elidroth> they're tied together as a result of the skill being used
<Sarayu> It wouldn't upset the balance, we're that far behind.
<Sarayu> Crane is 1 time in a fight.
<Trazz> sounds good to me!.. baby steps.
<Rasputyn> can you adjust the crit rate for our special attacks? Crane stance already won't crit, so it won't suddenly skyrocket
<Rasputyn> we're attempting to make our special attacks feel special again is all
<Tanecho> I have special attacks doing less damage than a single standard melee swing, which doesn't feel special (special attacks being our strikes)
<Sarayu> I really don't understand how we can translate how far behind we are without comparing our numbers against other classes lol
<Elidroth> the relative power of Flying Kick was originally based upon difference between bare fists and kicking
<Tanecho> Well, one thing to mention is how much of our damage does not scale with gear, which seems to be what we're hitting on here
<Sarayu> Tanecho, you mean how you can parse the same number using weapons and gear and only weapons?
<Deadbroke> Elidroth, may I ask? What did/do you all have in mind for new / upgraind of monk aa's already?
<Maereax> @Eli - You said the problem is that if you increase the skill damage, you increase all of those discs. What about an AA that adds a flat amount of damage on to the end of our skills? Similar to the ones we already have, but worthwhile. We have a total of 33 AA ranks to increase our kick damage (6 for flying kick only, 27 for all kicks) and even with them maxed it doesn't make our skill
<Maereax> "special" as the above monks have said
<Tanecho> No, I mean our kicks and strikes do the same amount of damage with a 1 damage weapon and a 110 damage weapon
<Elidroth> of course.. because your kicks and strikes aren't tied to your weapons at all
<Tanecho> Right, but that gets to the heart of the issue with our scaling, its why we feel we fall behind as time passes
<Elidroth> currently, you have AA that adds nearly 1500 dmg on top of your flying kick.. every time you kick
<Maereax> and yet it still does less than 5% of our DPS
<Tanecho> Right, but it does not affect the remainder of the wu chain, my strikes do as little as 400 damage
<Elidroth> fine.. I'll make it more of your dps and reduce the other types of attacks so they can feel 'special'
<Deadbroke> no, let's figure something else out
<Fatbuk> Special K or Special Ed?
<Elidroth> my point is you're getting too wrapped up in the word 'special'
<Sarayu> Elidroth, we have some of the best monks in the game (not me) trying to figure out how to fix the dps.
<Deadbroke> I want to know what you have in mind for Monk, Elidroth?
<Maereax> All we want is to be in line with the other melee dps. Not passing them, and hell, we'd probably all agree that they can still have an advantage. But right now, we're no where near them, and we're getting passed by hybrids with much more utility than we have. We're not giving you an attitude, we're not trying to make unreasonable demands. We want our class to be closer in line with other
<Maereax> classes in the same archetype as us. We're doing the best we can to work with you on that. Honestly at this point, I strongly doubt many of us our hung up on how you do it.
<Stonescales> agree
<Sarayu> Agree
<Zzlaarr> exactly
<Rasputyn> nod
<Copyright> What exactly are you looking at as far as expectations of monk dps Eli? We are talking about raid parsing dps, and when we say behind we are talking about 10s and 10s of thousands
<Trazz> I concur
<tonzofo> Improve your throwing discs so you burst from ranged imo.
<Copyright> not some small boost to kick mastery is going to cover that gap
<Elidroth> I'm interested in you being comparable to all other dps
<Trazz> other dps or pure dps as you indicated?
<Stonescales> right now i would say we rank 4th or 5th
<Sarayu> We literally beat Enchanters, Priests, and Tanks
<Maereax> Then how can we work with you to best accomplish that? Tell us what you need, and we will get it for you
<Tanecho> Timeline is an important consideration
<Elidroth> me personally, I'd like to see all dps be interchangable
<Copyright> So how can we go about that? We have an insurmountable gap to cover to make us interchangable again
<Zzlaarr> currently monks are not even close to that anymore
<Copyright> no single small passive AA line
<Copyright> is going to fix that
<Copyright> thats mainly what everyone is trying to get at
<Copyright> and are starting to just snowball any ideas we can come up with
<Tanecho> That is the issue, we are currently not interchangable with other pure melee, and hybrids offer a large amount of utility on top of comparable (and on some timelines, superior) DPS
<Elidroth> you don't have an insurmountable gap, but I'm not going to make all changes at once.. we're going to need to make adjustments and get there over some period of time
<Sarayu> Insurmountable was hyperbole.
<Sarayu> It is a large gap.
<Sarayu> ~30k
<Copyright> very large gap
<Trazz> lol
<Deadbroke> One step at a time, is always the best way to go
<Stonescales> any forward progress would be great
<Elidroth> it's a large gap under a specific raid makeup
<Sarayu> No, Elidroth, I'm sorry.
<Maereax> That's understandable, but at the same time we've been told that before and it never happened. We don't have anyone in the class leader program (I don't know what it's called now, but it's basically the CL program), we don't have anyone asking just us specifically how to improve the class - What ways can we go about making sure this happens?
<Copyright> under a standard raid group structure its insurmountable
<Sarayu> Group: Bard, Shaman, Rogue, Monk, Zerker, Beastlord
<Copyright> ^
<Sarayu> There will be a 20-30k difference between us and the other dps classes in there, BST included
<Elidroth> nothing is insurmountable
<Elidroth> but the last thing I want to do is give you a bunch of things and then suddenly find out you're the new Berserker
<Maereax> Sir, I don't mean to be beligerent, but the specific raid makeup that you're refering to is one where we're in the same group as the other DPS. If we get full DPS groups and rogues/berserkers start getting put in tank groups, we MIGHT make up some ground. But in the same groups, weather or not they're tank/dps/healer/CC/misc/ungrouped, we are behind
<Sarayu> hotfix nerf?
<tonzofo> So your implying that beastlords out burst you as a rogue?
<Elidroth> where under specific circumstances, your DPS goes ape
<Stonescales> it would take a lot for us to become the new zerker
<Elidroth> yeah.. because you guys react SO well to nerfs, even when you know they're necessary
<Maereax> What circumstances does our DPS go ape?
<Sarayu> I would rather have to be nerfed, to be honest lol
<Elidroth> no.. it really wouldn't.. not with the way some of our combat stuff is multiplicative
<Sarayu> Monk nerf last one? Prior to House of Thule?
<Nire> Alrighty enough about Monks, lets talk about Drachnid Visage for Rogues=P
<Tanecho> In the current system, I feel like our DPS goes ape, and our ape is the normal for other melee. And then they go ape under the same circumstances
<Sarayu> ^
<Sarayu> No hyperbole, monk maximum is other dps semi-afk talking on the phone running their burns
<Sarayu> Other monks can confirm for me lol
<Tanecho> With a proper group makeup, I gain probably about 45-60% damage, but that same difference applies to those with a higher baseline
<Elidroth> I'm talking about if I make big changes.. we on this side of the game have to be VERY careful because of how things interact.
<Elidroth> things can escalate into gigantic numbers very quickly if we don't go slowly
<Maereax> And that's understandable. We're not asking for a fix today, and we're not asking for godmode. We just want to insure that it's really going to happen, and like I asked previously, We'd all like to know how we can achieve that.
<Elidroth> I was already planning on doing something similar to the rogue's Massive Strike, but again I'll have to play with things
<Stonescales> we would be happy with a bunch of small changes if it brought us back inline
<Sarayu> Well it seems clear that we've at least agreed there is "a gap"
<Keriath> Rogue - Hastened Backstab reuse time? Make it a short duration buff that goes in song window that procs off something we currently use? Maybe even Backstab itself.
<Elidroth> sure.. but you have to give those changes time to happen
<Sarayu> Do you have any ideas on how to bridge that gap, or you wanting us to reiterate ours? :P
<Elidroth> making a lot of small changes in one motion is in aggregate, a BIG change
<Maereax> We'll provide whatever data you need, I personally will volunteer for any testing that needs to be done, as will many others. BUt like I said, we have been told this before and nothing happened. We have no class representation in the CL program, and chances like this to communicate with you guys (the devs) are fairly rare for us
<Maereax> We don't want it to be another 'out of sight, out of mind' type situation
<Maereax> Seriously. What specificlly can we do to follow up with, help figure out, and fix the problems we're having
<Elidroth> there's a lot going on behind the scenes here that you don't know about yet, but let me just say I think we'll have a better chance at continuing the balance adjustments more frequently going forward
<Trazz> I gotta run.. /hug @Elidroth #Hoss forever!
<illa> so what you're saying is that eq will be getting episodic content releases? like half life 2?
<Elidroth> What I said was.. there was a lot going on here that you don't know about yet
<Maereax> Thank you. Is there any details you can elaborate on regarding that? I don't mean to keep repeating myself, but there has been multiple time periods where monks specifically were told 'you're going to be fixed' and it either never happened, or wasn't tuned/implimented correctly (not bashing on you here. This is a huge and old game with millions of working parts). We want to be proactive
<Elidroth> next
<Keriath> Rogue - Hastened Backstab reuse time? Make it a short duration buff that goes in song window that procs off something we currently use? Maybe even Backstab itself.
<Elidroth> I can do it, I'm just not sure rogues in general would appreciate having to click buttons even faster.. lol
<Nire> Elidroth anychance to answering my question about the visage idea?
<Keriath> Like we don't mash backstab already. =p
<Elidroth> I guess
<Brael> i mash bactabb 3000 times day doesnt bother me to mash it 3000 more
<Maereax> Nire, once you convince Eli to delete rogues because you've asked about your visage so much, any chance you'd go switch to a ranger next and get them deleted too?
<Nire> fyi if you mash it to fast before it goes ungrey it will go in as a regular melee attack as opposed to abackstba
<Brael> Could we maybe see a min Frezined stabbing with keriaths idea?
<Brael> elid?
<Nire> occasionally
<Obiziana> Eli - Any chance for another rank or 2 of hastened/extended impenetrable.
<Sarayu> What server are you on out of curiosity Nire?
<Maereax> pure curiosity
<Nire> Maereax, I will ask until I get a yes or no, I've been here since this thing started.
<Maereax> It was a joke, sir
<Maereax> Friendly banter
<Nire> I'm from zek
<Nire> we aren't friendl
<Nire> y.
<Zzlaarr> lol
<Zzlaarr> <- scared ;)
<Maereax> That speaks volumes
<Nire> Don't get to be king of zek by being Kind.
<Elidroth> hmm.. I'll have to look at how much but a Hastened Backstab skill could work
<Brael> Eldi what Keriath is asking is Passive AA that procs in song window Mini Frenzied stabbding
<Brael> when we hit backstab it has chance to proc that that goes into song window
<Nire> I like that idea Brael actually.
<Elidroth> nah
<arrested> but we cant get a hastened synergy?
<Elidroth> Arrested.. you really need to ask other monks about what's already been asked
<Elidroth> I'm more in line thinking that this would just be a passive reduction in reuse time on backstab in general
<Keriath> That could also work.
<Tanecho> Our forum thread on monkly-business hasn't been updated in hours to know what's been asked, can anyone hit that with a quick update?
<arrested> right but our synergy is what is compareable to there backstab which they can do every 6 seconds?
<Nire> Rogue- <Poisonious Intent> possible name for the aa, Turns the caster into a drachnid increasing base damage and poison damage for a short duration .
<Maereax> @Eli - You said earlier that we couldn't get our ID reduced to a 30 second timer. How about a 1 minute timer?
<Maereax> sorry, didn't mean to do two at once
<Elidroth> And I already said I saw no reason to drop that below 2 minutes
<Elidroth> Nire - I've already stated I can't change poison damage specifically
<Nire> ok so scratch the poison
<Maereax> It's one of our primary pull abilities, and some instances require using it in syngery with our Echo line of discs, which requires out of combat and is on an 18 second timer. It's also difficult to be considered a pulling ability with such a long timer. I apologize though, I wasn't aware you phrased it that way, only that you said no to 30s
<Sarayu> It was kind of a mistake to put classes together. All monks see are "yes yes yes yes NO NIRE" to rogues and "no no no no no no no maybe maybe no no maybe NO" to monks
<Nire> And Elidroth, I was referring to it giving a poison proc while in that form, not modifying damage, sorry for the lack of clarification
<Nire> modifying poison dmg
<Maereax> Honestly, I don't even care about what he's asking about - just that he's asked it like 63 times since I've been here, and even then I was simply poking fun at him. I'm all for rogues getting everything they want, I just want to be comparable DPS to them
<Zzlaarr> not gonna happen, wasting my time elsewhere - cyas
<savager> agree, if rogues get stuff that means monks will have to get the same since we're "interchangeable dps"
<Maereax> Triple their dps from last expansion, I'm cool with that. As long as we're comparable to whatever they are, meaning triple + close the curent gap
<Elidroth> so Zzlaarr left because 1 ability request wasn't going to happen?
<Elidroth> interesting
<Sarayu> It wasn't "one" that wouldn't happen.
<Copyright> Almost every request we've made is a no or maybe
<Copyright> You've shot down almost everything we've brought up
<Tanecho> Can we have a spider form that makes all of our kicks fire 7 extra flying kicks? *joking*
<tonzofo> hah!
<Copyright> but considered or handed an already overpowered class
<Copyright> what they want
<Elidroth> Huh?
<Eico> Hastened Mend aa's in the works?
<Elidroth> are you guys even paying attention?
<Copyright> Yes we are, all you did was give us the run around 'Oh guys its going to take time, small changes here and there, nothing happens overnight' Rogue asks for hastened backstab thats already parsing rediculously higher than its pure dps counterpart and you are like sure
<Copyright> i think we can do that
<SYNYSTER> monks got a point~
<Sarayu> It's probably the fact that every monk in the game looked at this IRC chat as "Finally, we're going to be comparable" and is seeing that the changes we're hoping for aren't being named, no definitive timeline, no even "absolutely, we want to fix monks, this is how," "those are great ideas, I think we can work something out"
<Elidroth> Stonewall, 1hb version of Fists of Steel, Stonefoot, H2H add to Punch Mastery, Damage increase to 2hb weaposn, Accuracy increase, Kick Mastery - More ranks & increase damage add, Hastened Ironfist, Stunning Kick resist adjustments, Rapid Strikes upgrades, Massive Strike type ability, Hastened Flying Kick, Crane Stance reuse adjustment - Maybe, Flying Kick mod to Zan Fi, Hastened Synergy abilities - Maybe
<Elidroth> Yep.. that SURE looks like a lot of NO
<Daremok1> kinda of sad when a zerker ask for monks to get a dps increase
<Trazz> love u Elid
<SYNYSTER> what monk uses a 1hb ?
<Sarayu> None
<Elidroth> Please.. go on about how I've said NO to everything
<Sarayu> Which of those are pure yes?
<Daremok1> yeah no monk wants to use a 1hb
<Tanecho> Yeah, I don't see the purpose on the 1hb thing, unless its a masive boost
<Copyright> I dont recall a single monk asking for more stonewall
<Copyright> no monks that know their class would weild a 1hb
<Eico> on that list i like everything. but what if you added an aa that raised the floor *min damage output* of Crane Kick?
<Tanecho> our weapons always had a higher ratio to help keep us in line
<Brogett> That was a response to a monk asking for 1hb upgrade btw...
<Sarayu> To be honest, I think everyone in channel could turn down the sarcasm.
<Daremok1> if i wanted to do 2hb damage i would play a zerker
<Brogett> However I agree monks do need more damage overall. Either burst, sustained or maybe a bit of both.
<Elidroth> a version of Fist of Steel for 1hb was one of the FIRST THINGS ASKED FOR here today
<Elidroth> so you weren't so completely tied to h2h weapons
<Stonescales> that great Eli, just when talking we were not getting the impression
<Sarayu> Elidroth, I just don't remember any of those getting "yes," only maybe.
<Sarayu> Probably a misunderstanding by the monks in channel.
<Daremok1> not sure what monk even uses 1hb
<Qulas> It would take more than Blunts of Steel to make 1hb viable due to the huge difference in ratio Elidroth.
<Maereax> The majority of us don't want 1hb FoS. Limiting us to H2H insures we get them over others that have a wider range of weapon choices. 2HB weapons will never replace h2h weapons. We were told no to lowering the reuse of all of our discs other than ironfist, even though ours are longer than every other melee class. I missed hastened flying kick and crane reuse
<Mykaylla> Just to interject, FYI, Elidroth rarely says "absolutely yes" to any class, just in case, but you end up with a lot of them anyway. ;) Open dialogue is good!
* Mykaylla goes back to observing.
<illa> maybe = sounds reasonable, needs checking that will take time
<illa> no = no
<Tanecho> Thank you for the recap though, I missed the first few hours
<Elidroth> in fact there are very few things I've said 'absolutely no' to
<arrested> thanks for the recap
<Sarayu> I think most monks snapped when they heard two rogue "yes" after our tearful plea for help.
<Sarayu> Qulas was literally crying.
<Qulas> ...
<Qulas> i just got home lol
<Maereax> Eli - We're not trying to fight, make demands or be unreasonable. We're not trying to get on your bad side. We want to fix our class, and we know the best ways to do that. There's very limited channels of communication here, there's a large group of us here, and like I've said multiple times - We have no class representive. We have no one to pitch ideas to that communicates with you. We
<Maereax> have to ALL do it in this chat, and some signals are getting crossed
<Sarayu> He had to get more tissues.
<Voodoman> this is a good way to ensure that your class gets absolutely nothing
<Voodoman> btw
<Elidroth> in fact.. the list of things I've decided to do for Monks is TWICE AS LONG as the Rogue list
<Maereax> Exactly, Voodo. We're not trying to mess things up for ourselves. We just want a little love, and when a class that we want to be >comparable< to is getting large increases while monks haven't much in the last few years, its very easy to panic
<Qulas> We need THREE times the help!
<Copyright> ^
<Sarayu> That's awesome, Elidroth, which of those offer potentially major gap bridging potential?
<Elidroth> if you want to keep arguing over this.. I'll see everyone tomorrow
<Obiziana> MOAR! ><
<Elidroth> because this isn't going anywhere right now
<Voodoman> focus on your class, get over rogues
<Qulas> One of the problems with monks, specifically dps based
<Qulas> is that our Flying Kick is really, really, really weak
<Qulas> even with 500 or so aa dumped into improving it
<Qulas> its still dreadful damage output
<arrested> thats been talked about Q
<Elidroth> Qulas - it's over 5% of your total damage from a single press of a button
<Brogett> Regarding no class representative, feel free to discuss amongst yourselves and produce a set of community lead sensible requests and PM a CRT member
<Elidroth> well.. a single ability anyway
<Brogett> I offered to help monks in the past, but I'm still banned from monklybusiness. lol
<Qulas> 5% sure, but without trying to start class warfare, how much of backstab is rogues DPS?
<Elidroth> if you include all of the abilities that function through the Flying Kick skill itself, it's over 21.5% of your total damage
<Sarayu> Flying Kick minimum/max - 830-2236 normal. Flying Kick minimum/max - 1671-6740 critical
<Elidroth> WHO CARES?
<Voodoman> monks
<Copyright> ^
<Qulas> you can't count synergy as flying kick imo, i'm talking straight up, just flying kick
<Elidroth> what matters is the damage you do, not what a single ability does
<Qulas> ok true
<Tanecho> Be constructive, guys
<Qulas> but the damage that we do, isn't really that great right now
<Qulas> and one way to improve it, would be through, flying kick
<Obiziana> As long as we get some increases I could care less if FK is 1%
<Elidroth> ./facepalm
<Maereax> Qulas man, can you check the monk chat channel?
<Daremok1> honestly i don't care what our damage comes from as long as it get up to par with the other pure dps class
<Sarayu> Oh wow, those numbers were for Punch, not Crit
<Sarayu> Kick
<Tanecho> Out of curiousity, if you have the figures Eli, do you know offhand what punch mastery does for the rest of the wu chain? I know h2h is being talked about added to it, but I'm at 26/29 and the strikes on it still seem incredibly weak
<Elidroth> Flying Kick has 1490 damage (pre-mitigation) added to it every time you press the button
<Elidroth> Punch Mastery is 420 damage
<Brogett> The more damage you do via autoattack the more ADPS boosts your dps too. (But conversely the more dependent you become on ADPS classes). FWIW as data, an entire combine from Sep5 and SL raid as a rogue: 61% pierce, 30% BS, 7% DD, 1% DoT. Lots of frontal hits and rubbish in ther too with trash
<Sarayu> You got 30% from one button!?
<Brogett> Pure burn BS is higher portion - 40-50^ maybe
<Brogett> Not just one button - some of that backstab will be massive strikes and various procs that look like BS to parser, but mostly one button yes. It's irrelevant though, Your "attack on" button gets a higher portion does it not?
<Tanecho> It depends on the ADPS source, a bard yes, but we gain less from BL buffs, and I believe our crit rate is lower as well (due to a lot of abilities that can't crit, I think)
<Elidroth> I'll just wait over here until you're done arguing with each other
<Daremok1> i don't care about what is doing the damage only that we are atleast 30k less then other pure dps and need a large increase
<Sarayu> Elidroth, increase chat to melee critical?
<Voodoman> Ok, Elidroth, how about that shadowman illusion, just for Nire?
<Voodoman> PLEASE
<Trazz> lol
<Obiziana> bazinga
<Elidroth> Sarayu - I'm hesitant to give our more crit chance..
<Sarayu> I show roughly 18% critical punch, 19.5% kick critical, fully buffed and burning
<Qwestmode> If only you could kick him from guild chat Ngreth :|
<Voodoman> damn you elidroth, damn you!
<Voodoman> I MEAN NGRETH
<Ngreth> was not Elidroth
<Voodoman> inb4
<Sarayu> I'm thinking H2H on Punch Mastery combined with accuracy is going to be an amazing route, Elidroth.
<Sarayu> Punch accuracy fully buffed - 81%
<Sarayu> Kick accuracy fully buffed - 89%
<Sarayu> Average melee hit, 1700
<Tanecho> I agree, I like the accuracy route as well as maybe more rapid strikes, it is more of the death by a thousand cuts style that has always been a trademark of the monk (most hits in x amount of time)
<Elidroth> Again.. I'm going to have to look over the data if I make that change
<Elidroth> to ensure it isn't a HUGE change
<Obiziana> big is good, huge is better.. but at least in my opinion, we'll take whatever you want to give us.
<Elidroth> no.. Huge is NOT better
<Elidroth> not ever
<Sarayu> Someone did the numbers for accuracy translated into dps using Auspice.
<Obiziana> hmm... not what my wife said!
<Sarayu> I think it was in the neighborhood of 4k dps for 2% accuracy
<Maereax> Well, that was with the auspice buff too. It adds attack and crit damage
<Maereax> and it was 800 DPS increase from no auspice to rank 13 auspice
<Sarayu> I mean, I missed 128 times, average of 1700 that's 217k damage
<Sarayu> that's a 10% dps boost maxing our accuracy, which won't happen
<Tanecho> But a 3-4% boost in accuracy in addition to h2h going on punch mastery and some more rapid strikes, the little changes can add up to what we need... taken one at a time of course
<Maereax> These also really weren't quotable parses. I ran them for a very short duration to see what our current accuracy numbers were like and compared them to preexisting parses on the same subject
* Copyright slaps Flow around a bit with a large trout
* Flow slaps Copyright around a bit with a large trout
<Qulas> aww how cute
<Qulas> two little love birds
<arrested> lol
<Maereax> What I believe we're trying to say is, there's a multitude of ways to improve our current standing. We don't know the in's and out's of what you can do with the code, but we're willing to test whatever needs to be tested and whichever implimentation works out best for both parties is one that I'm sure we'll be grateful here. Something for everyone to try to keep in mind is that this whole
<Maereax> chat is just throwing out ideas to get us there. Some of us are more partial to some than others, but the principle is the same. I can't speak for others, but there was at least some agreement that we're happy to be fixed in whichever way we can be, as long as it's not something that's a bandaid fix and we're going to regret it later
<Maereax> Tensions running high is never a good thing, it's going to set us back rather than move us forward
<Sarayu> People got passion, yo.
<Sarayu> Beats the hell out of the class discussions open forums I led with Premonition in WoW lol
<Flow> I mean we could probably solve all monk DPS problems by simply implemented Monk Fury AA. Just copy and paste what the rogue's have and give them like 6 ranks less. Let it stack with their main burn disc. Sounds perfect to me. Maybe toss like 25% HH on it. So kawaii
<tonzofo> 01Monk fury?
<tonzofo> It would be better overall to add a frenzied resolve type of ability
<Tanecho> You forgot to add proc ethereal nukes
<Maereax> We have something similar, I believe. Infusion of thunder is a lesser version of it
<tonzofo> 01Increase Chance of Additional Attack by 100%02 and 01Increase Chance to Hit by 30%01
<tonzofo> 02on a stacking disc
<tonzofo> 02It would stack with all of your stuff and provide a solid workable burn dps
<tonzofo> 02That addition attack chance (for berserkers atleast) is a very solid effect.
<Flow> Make Monk Fury stack with infusion of thunder too.
<Flow> By all means.
<tonzofo> 02Impossible
<tonzofo> 02Its teh damage mod that is valuable on your burn
<tonzofo> 02And those do not stack
<Maereax> they're the same thing, IoF is just a lower % than rogues get
<tonzofo> 02^
<Flow> Never say never.
<Maereax> Flow ever tried stacking temperence and virtue?
<Maereax> what happens?
<tonzofo> 02Never means never, unless elidroth intends to change stacking. If that happend berserkers would uhh love it.
<Maereax> virt overwrites temp. You get absolutely no benefit from temperence while you have the better buff on. That's what you're talking about
<Maereax> In that specific case it doesn't really work, because you lose the temp buff, but it's the same idea
<Flow> last time I stacked virtue and temperance I just reaped both the benefits. But that's because I believed in not saying never, ever. If you try it sometime you might come out ahead.
<tonzofo> 02Virtue and temperance do not stack
<Tanecho> Off topic guys
<Flow> That's exactly the line of thinking that won't get monks anywhere.
<Flow> Do you believe Rogues got to where they are today by saying we can never get something?
<Flow> I don't.
<Tanecho> I assume more ranks of infusion have been shot down already?
<Sarayu> Knot worth it Knyphe
<Khoza> indeed
<Tanecho> Because "Monk's Fury" is essentially what that is, with a few sprinkles on top
<Knyphe> what i miss? we getting anything cool? D:
<Flow> Maybe an AA that gives massive strike like properties to monks kicks or something?
<Flow> I dunno.
<Taoden> Was already asked about earlier.
<Flow> How'd that go
<Taoden> I'll let one of the monks answer as I'm a rog and i dont really want to scroll up that far.
<Khoza> I believe he said, 'I'll work on something'
<tonzofo> Basically it comes down to your burn dps as monks.
<tonzofo> Speedfocus is much poopier then it used to be because of the amount of HHE that are around now.
<tonzofo> Crystal Palm you stack with nothing correct? Other then ADPS abilities from BST/SHM/BRD?
<Maereax> We stack CP with our second spire, zan fi, eagnles balance and our BP clicks
<Maereax> and our sustain needs help too
<Tanecho> Has some form of upgrade to drunken monkey been broached? I didn't see it on any list
<Flow> Would you say that beastlords are further ahead in terms of DPS than monks?
<Maereax> yes
<Maereax> and DM is a disc
<Maereax> eli only wants to discuss AA's
<Khoza> Adding the mods from DM to Zan Fi was suggested
<tonzofo> Elidroth what is your stance on adding actual activated abilities?
<Flow> Beastlords are hybrids as well.
<tonzofo> Are you looking for mostly passive ideas?
<Copyright> he wants to focus on passive
<Tanecho> It feels like an abandoned disc at this point, to a lesser extent cloud as well
<Tanecho> though I never was a fan of cloud
<Maereax> He said passive only, as far as I know, and I don't believe we love the idea of another active. Especailly one that's luck/rng based, and especially not something liek DM that sucks down endurance even expansions later
<tonzofo> What is your crit rate on 5 minute fights and 60s fights?
<tonzofo> 35%?
<tonzofo> 40?
<Elidroth> Most people don't want more activated abilities
<Maereax> 20% base on melee I believe
<Knyphe> they talk about increasing the rate our HH procs trigger yet?
<Maereax> I don't know about specials, I didn't parse them
<Khoza> Eli said no more HH
<Maereax> It was denied, and we don't want more HH
<Knyphe> i see
<Maereax> HH procs mean we get less benefit or no benefit when we get ADPS buffs from bards/beastlords when they go off. That makes us less relavent in DPS groups, which isn't a good thing
<Maereax> I have to run home from work. I'm afk for ~8 minutes
<Elidroth> HH has a problem and we've decided NOT to give out any more until it's fixed
<Tanecho> Is it a new problem or one from the ancient times?
<Elidroth> it's been there since it was coded, but it is a BIG problem and we're not giving out any more until it's fixed
<Knyphe> i wasnt aware there was an issue with it
<Rasputyn> Monks: One final rank of Critical Mend to make it always crit?
<Knyphe> but if it's a coding thing, that'd make sense
<Stonescales> way ahead
<Daremok1> i like more crit on mend
<Elidroth> no
<Elidroth> if something always crits.. then it isn't a crit anymore
<Rasputyn> current rate is about 80%
<Knyphe> passive ability to make pinpoint land more!
<Rasputyn> so it's more like a 20% chance to disappoint us currently is all =)
<Tanecho> Mend's crit chance is inversely proportional to how much you need it to crit... right?
<Khoza> That's a given with anything, Tanecho
<tonzofo> How about a line of passives like the berserkers precise blow? If your crit chance is that low it'll add a decient amount of passive dps and go well with burning when you get ruchu and such.
<irctc012> yo!
<Oru> sorry I had to work on the West coast... was anything mentioned about adding Triple attack, Sinister Strikes, Ambidexterity, Rapid Strikes, Tactical Mastery or TechOfMasterWu?
<Khoza> Oru : #monk
<Tanecho> Rapid strikes I know was, I don't know what could be done to Wu without code changes
<irctc012> #
<Daremok1> no to more triple attack
<Elidroth> sorry.. dealing with a minor issue
<Sarayu> Advil works best.
<Sarayu> Or Alieve.
<Khoza> No Triple, SS I believe is code issues, ambidex... can we ever improve that? Rapid strikes he was looking into, Tactical hasn't been touched, Tech I think has been denied before
<Oru> well adding anything to those (minus TactMast) should help us compete dps-wise... we used to be some of the top parsers. now our pulling abilities have been given to many others, and our dps is laughable at the high-end.
<Oru> adding to TactMast will help our ability to solo when we're not raid geared. would love to solo again when there's nothing else to do like I used to be able to in SolB :-p
<Tanecho> I'm pretty sure without any strikethrough on gear, we're well over 100% strikethrough
<Really_Maereax> aaaaand we're back
<Forcallen> can monks have eyeball lazers then?
<Copyright> That would require us to be rogues
<Elidroth> ugh
<Aaniu> ....
<Khoza> Shouldn't mix painkillers with booze, Eli
<Maereax> Eli can we seriously cross the 1hb fists of steel thing off the list? I suspect a beastlord came in and impersonated a monk so they could win more h2h weapons
<Elidroth> There's no way for me to do anything with offhand damage.
<Elidroth> If monks really don't want it that's fine
<Copyright> Well the general word we are getting is it would only be a temporary useful addition until said monk was able to obtain a h2h weapon, so as far as priorities go
<Copyright> there are other things that are more worth the time imo
<Tanecho> hand to hand weapons are over a tier better than 1hbs, generally
<Maereax> Exactly what copy said. It's not worth the time
<Copyright> as far as other inquiries though, we are talking ideas out in another channel so as to not spam this one
<Elidroth> ok
<Knyphe> !!
<Tanecho> We saw you say something about hastened flying kick as something you were considering, can you elaborate on that idea?
<Khoza> Darn it, Tanecho, you scared him away again
<Maereax> lol
<Tanecho> I am a cazic following monk
<Elidroth> it's a pretty simple thing
<Elidroth> it'd just be a skill timer reduction on Flying Kick
<Khoza> That was tried once before, and was buggy. Quickfoot, I believe. Can it be done at this point?
<Elidroth> Honestly I think what I have here is a very good start
<Aggememnon> do you have any vision of monks that you would care to share with us Eli, so we can gauge what would be reasonable lines to pursue?
<Elidroth> nope
<Brael> eldi can you recap on rogues please if have chance
<Aggememnon> you have one but don't want to share, eh? ;p
<Maereax> Do we honestly think that faster flying kicks will help us, in it's current state? I understand what you meant by many of our abilities being flying kick related, but hastened wouldn't effect that, and faster low-dps kicks are still low-dps kicks
<arrested> is there any chance on getting 8step and syngery unlinked thru aa or anything?
<Tanecho> How about a flying kick that functions like a reverse moving mountains, a way to quickly close the gap with a moderate power strike?
<tonzofo> So basically a battle leap with a flying kick damage hit
<Elidroth> could do that
<Aggememnon> Tat woud be kinda cool - house of flying daggers style ;p
<Elidroth> Rogues have Hastened Twisted Chance, Hastened Counterattack, Hastened Purge Poison, Increased Damage from the Assault/Onslaught type abilities, Hastened Backstab (if possible), Possible increased proc rate on Etherium Blades, Possible Absorbing Agent AA, Resists on Ligament Slice, Hastened Stealth - Add Sneak Skill to this AA
<Brael> wasnt on ligement
<Brael> was on simple mark line
<Elidroth> ligament was brought up as well
<Brael> k
<Brael> sorry
<Elidroth> and yeah.. Simple Mark as well
<Brael> do you want full list of that Line?
<Elidroth> yes.
<Brael> simple mark etc etc
<Knyphe> any chance of a Hastened Mark?
<Brael> ill send it
<Elidroth> anytime things could apply to multiple abilities I need all of them to ensure we're not missing something
<tonzofo> For the monk version of battle leap, it might be best to add a % damage mod instead of the flying kick for about 35%. If thats not possible then the flying kick mod really needs to be about "Flying Kick Attack for 2500"
<tonzofo> 2500 might seem like a lot for a mod, but its avg dps is low unless you get super super lucky. Though it depends on what the reuse would be.
<Flow> Sounds good to me.
<Maereax> What's the current timer on rogues twisted chance?
<Brael> What about Shadow Meld/shadow step thats gives Mod % boost like battle leap?
<Flow> no idea
<Brael> you also missed that aswell elid you said no you could put us behind the mob but you could do the Shadowstep part like battle leap
<Brael> TC is 15 mins
<Brael> mae
<Maereax> and that's being hastened?
<Brael> yes
<Elidroth> the problem with the shadowstep thing is I have to either set it to a fixed distance, or fling you to your target, but that becomes problematic in where you land and such
<Maereax> and what's the reuse on your frenzied stabbing?
<Brael> We was just looking for Postioning tool really edi with same boost as battle leap maybe make it Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 35%
<Brael> Limit Skill to Piercing or something
<Brael> More less postioning tool with small boost
<Brael> 10 mins mae
<Brael> i dont know effect for battle leap
<Knyphe> flinging to the target sounds good
<Brael> 35% might be wrong elid
<Knyphe> if it works like battle leap, the trajectory is some-what controllable in mid air
<tonzofo> You can only rotate your character
<Knyphe> so we can kind determine where we land
<tonzofo> battle leap fires you silghtly past your target
<Knyphe> to a lesser extent
<tonzofo> So you've got to turn mid air and then you land behind
<Brael> k so target able shadowstep?
<Maereax> Look, I really don't want to start trouble here, but... your guys two biggest burns are 10 and 15 mins - ours are 13 and 21 minutes, but we can't get those lowered? Seriously. Not trying to cause trouble, but that makes no sense.
<tonzofo> battle leap is actually very useful
<Knyphe> if you press back as your flying, to dont go as far, heh.
<Knyphe> i've played with it a lot on zerk and i like the concept of it
<Brael> now see i was recrouse to answer you questions mae so wouldnt start trouble
<Maereax> Like I said, I'm not trying to. I just don't understand.
<Brael> but i did
<Brael> actallly we now eithr have choice
<Brael> use FS etc
<Brael> or use TC
<Maereax> I don't believe this is a competition. Boosts to you guys benefit the raid just as much as boosts to us. I think we should all get new stuff. I just don't understand the reasoning there
<Aggememnon> I don't think for melee there should be any discipline thats over 15 mins
<Aggememnon> Not just monks now - though we have collectively the worst reuse timers
<Aggememnon> And to make matters worse, our boosters to our 2 big discs (specifically Infusion) don't match well with the reuse timers
<Copyright> yea our baseline AA lineup for burns is 4 buttons, 2nd spire is 10mins, eagles is 20, zan fi and infusion are both 7
<Copyright> everything mismatches
<SYNYSTER> can rogues get more heroic strength on their weps?
<Copyright> so for max burn, with terror, we could only go every 20 minutes
<Tanecho> True max would be 30, ironfist crane kick, but essentially yes
<Copyright> yea
<Copyright> if you dropped reuse on ironfist, still max burst dps is every 20 minutes
<Copyright> assuming you shaved 10 minutes off of it
<Aggememnon> ironfist is 30 min reuse time - and only useful to boost crane effectivekly
<Copyright> right
<Aggememnon> after thats its the weakest disc, with longest reuse
<Tanecho> it pairs ok with eagle's balance as well
<Maereax> I don't want to burn multiple times per event, but at the same time we're hurting on DPS. The zerkers admit it and the rogues admit it. That problem is further compounded by the fact that sometimes we can't fully disc every event. There's no current event that I know of that is signifigantly melee effected that lasts for over 10 minutes. 13 Minutes on speedfocus is in that perfect groove
<Maereax> where we can't use it multiple times per event, but at the same time it's up on the next attempt/event. 20 minutes, 21 minutes and 30 minutes on AA/discs doesn't make sense anymore
<Copyright> right but even eagles balance is 20 minutes
<Aggememnon> bets monk burn though - every 30 mins is the take home message
<Aggememnon> and its even then not comoetitive
<Aggememnon> competitive
<Copyright> if most other classes are burning every 10-15 minutes like clockwork, and we can only throw down max every 30
<Aggememnon> thats the scale of the problem we face right now
<Copyright> where does that leave us in a nights combined
<Flow> probably pretty low
<Maereax> I think that in the rear arc, rogues should surpass us by 10% or so. Face to face, I'd be cool with them being even to us, or whatever. However that works out. Zerkers and you guys can fight for the top spot. But we're no where near that top spot and we're not even close to 10% behind. Try 30-45% behind
<Maereax> Plus the fact that we cant burn every fight = /wrist
<Copyright> its common time between the base AA/disc abilities versus main discipline reuse, almost none of them align in a sensible order
<Tanecho> Rogue's require rear arc, and berserkers require still mobs, I think in those situations they should beat us, but not by 30%
<Maereax> And this isn't even our primary problem. This is like a secondary problem. You're going 80 down the highway in a police chase and the cops just shot our your tire. That's your primary problem. Your gas tank being on E is our burn disc timers.
<Tanecho> And the fact that we are driving an icecream truck with a max speed of 15
<Copyright> dressed as santa clause
<Maereax> uphill and barefoot in the snow both ways. Wait.
<tonzofo> Berserkers max burn is usable every 18minutes btw.
<tonzofo> Having burns with reuses longer then 15minutes these days is pretty bleh
<Copyright> ive got max hastened in all AA lines and none of this stuff lines up in a logical order
<tonzofo> There isn't a point, since all it does it make balance harder. Bring them all to 10-15min then balance them.
<Knyphe> extra rank of run speed for rogues
<Maereax> Is Eli still there?
<Elidroth> still here but dealing with another small fire
<Khoza> He put his toke down on his papers, has to put them out.
<tonzofo> lol
<Elidroth> I'm going to have to call it for tonight, but I'll read up through the logs that I've missed a bit to see if there's anything more I can work with.
<Khoza> Tried to put it out with alcohol, didn't you?
<Elidroth> As far as ideas go, if you have more, please send them to me in a PM. I'll be sure to stay in contact with you via the forums to suss out the ideas with the community at large
<Knyphe> sounds good
<Aggememnon> please have a look at our suggestions for disc reuse timers
<Tanecho> Thanks for taking the time Eli
<Aggememnon> yeah - thanks and we hope you have some luck finding a good solution ;p
<Aggememnon> night all

Mris
12-17-2012, 11:51 PM
That's the complete log.

Maereax
12-18-2012, 12:41 AM
Mad good times yo

Copyright
12-18-2012, 01:05 AM
Just going over it again makes me want to blow my brains out.

Yyevil
12-18-2012, 01:18 AM
Wow - I give Eli props for just plain not blowing up during that.

Vothsisx
12-18-2012, 02:28 AM
What about the drachnid illusions???

Celephane
12-18-2012, 04:39 AM
<maereax> nire, once you convince eli to delete rogues because you've asked about your visage so much, any chance you'd go switch to a ranger next and get them deleted too?

lol

Reyla the Gnome
12-18-2012, 06:29 AM
True story.

Prince Charles visited Japan some years ago. He went through the usual protocols with the Japanese royal family but also made a request to his staff.

He asked that a casual lunch be arranged with an astronaut, a writer and a teacher.

He wanted to talk with and get to know the intellectual vibe of modern Japan.

That chat log was a little different I bet.

Nedrom
12-18-2012, 06:56 AM
Brogett never was and still is not banned from here.

Nedrom
12-18-2012, 07:03 AM
Just fixed Brogetts account, he was not banned.

In other news... I'm really embarrassed but not surprised at the behavior in the chat.

I think the chat would have gone much better without other classes sticking their noses in our business just like in *every* other situation.

I'm disappointed with how the chat turned out.

brogett
12-18-2012, 07:39 AM
Just fixed Brogetts account, he was not banned.

In other news... I'm really embarrassed but not surprised at the behavior in the chat.

I think the chat would have gone much better without other classes sticking their noses in our business just like in *every* other situation.

I'm disappointed with how the chat turned out.

Hurrah finally my account grants me the ability to see something - many thanks Nedrom! Sorry if I assumed it was banned. I had tried repeatedly to contact the previous admins and even to sign up anew and every time got nowhere, and IIRC it magically "broke" just after making some comment about monks asking for the moon on a stick are daft (hint: devs totally ignore idiotic requests and then fail to see if there really are problems to address; keep them sensible and you *may* get sensible replies).

Anyway I'm embarassed with some of that chat too, especially Nire! However I expect you can just add a filter to some IRC clients and completely hide some people so you never see them again. :-)

For what it's worth, some of the other classes were defending monks too. There were certainly cases of both Ber and Rog suggesting higher dps for monks. Kudos to Ngreth for booting Voodooman though. :-)

Aggememnon
12-18-2012, 09:23 AM
Tried to extract the relevant bits into bite-sized chunks.
I suggest we spreadsheet this with what is agreed, or is a 'maybe', and come up with suggestions on sensible values?
I prolly missed some stuff, so feel free to add relevant snippets.
I thought overall it was pretty good - we tossed a lot of ideas out there, and the #monk chat was busy....
Of course it depends on what is done, and when ....

1hb? (missed that completely)
<Brogett> However I agree monks do need more damage overall. Either burst, sustained or maybe a bit of both.
<Elidroth> a version of Fist of Steel for 1hb was one of the FIRST THINGS ASKED FOR here today
<Elidroth> so you weren't so completely tied to h2h weapons
..
<Maereax> Eli can we seriously cross the 1hb fists of steel thing off the list? I suspect a beastlord came in and impersonated a monk so they could win more h2h weapons
<Elidroth> There's no way for me to do anything with offhand damage.
<Elidroth> If monks really don't want it that's fine


hh:
<Elidroth> HH has a problem and we've decided NOT to give out any more until it's fixed
<Tanecho> Is it a new problem or one from the ancient times?
<Elidroth> it's been there since it was coded, but it is a BIG problem and we're not giving out any more until it's fixed

FPP:
<Khoza> Monks - Our Five Point Palm AA had a change in Rain of Fear, from a delayed damage to a direct damage. (Good change.) With this change, it gained a lot of aggro. Is this intended, or should we not get used to it?
<Elidroth> Five Point Palm was changed because too many monks complained about wasting it since it doesn't allow for more than one on the npc at a time
<Elidroth> the agro was a byproduct

crane:
<Daremok1> can you do an improved crane stance to make it more consistant damage it can range from 30k to 100k and maybe a hasten crane stance to lower it's reuse timer
<Elidroth> Daremok - I'll look at Crane but those are really Aristo's abilities and I want to make sure he's ok with reuse changes
<Elidroth> not a no, but I'll need to talk to him about them
<Elidroth> We really try to avoid messing with each other's work when we can help it

ID:
<Obiziana> Monk - Imitate Death: Can we get a few more ranks of hastened to bring it down to around 30 Second reuse?
<Elidroth> I'm not going to bring Hastened Imitate Death down to 30 seconds.
<Obiziana> Can we get some reduction then, perhaps down to 1M?
<Elidroth> I'll think about it. I don't really like the idea but I'll think about it

crits:
<Sarayu> Elidroth, increase chat to melee critical?
<Elidroth> Sarayu - I'm hesitant to give our more crit chance..
<Sarayu> I show roughly 18% critical punch, 19.5% kick critical, fully buffed and burning

synergy:
<Copyright> Monks - Possible to receive some form of hastened AA line to quicken the reuse of shadewalker's synergy and other syngery abilities from maybe 30 seconds down to 15 or less if we can get it.
<Elidroth> doubling the output of a single ability seems a bit excessive


FK/specials:
<Maereax> Monk special attacks - can they be brought up to be worth using?
<Elidroth> Not until you tell me what you're referring to. I've asked that people be specific in their questions
<Maereax> Flying kick, mostly. It's such a minimal portion of our dps. It's a class defining ability, like rogues backstab, but it accounts for such a minimal portion of our total damage
Trazz> What about %+ bonus on Flying Kick Criticals? Something dramatic to boost Monk DPS?
<Sarayu> We parsed earlier, monk accuracy was about 80%, melee critical was at 20%
<Trazz> 80% with buffs
<Maereax> 76% base
<Elidroth> it's not anything close to being comparable to backstab
<Maereax> It's not? Isn't it supposed to be?
<Elidroth> and just because Rogues get a high percentage of damage from one ability doesn't mean you should
...<Maereax> I just ran a ~10 minute parse of nothing but autoattacking and pressing flying kick on cooldown. No discs/AA's whatsoever. My damage by type breaks down like this - Punch - 93.9%, Kick 4.8% (I believe this is flying kick, round kick and kick combined), strike .07%, dirdamage .06%
<arrested> so how about an aa line to reduce crane stance
<Maereax> The reason that Sarayu's numbers are so high is because on that parse, crane stance, synergy, kick, flying kick AND round kick are all grouped into kicks
<Elidroth> ok
<Sarayu> We're trying to increase burst, not sustained.
<Maereax> We're JUST talking about the button called Flying Kick
<Sarayu> @arrested
<Elidroth> and all of those abilities use the skill Flying Kick
<Elidroth> I cannot increase damage on the skill Flying Kick without also increasing the damage from those abilities
<Elidroth> they're tied together as a result of the skill being used
..
<Tanecho> No, I mean our kicks and strikes do the same amount of damage with a 1 damage weapon and a 110 damage weapon
<Elidroth> of course.. because your kicks and strikes aren't tied to your weapons at all
<Tanecho> Right, but that gets to the heart of the issue with our scaling, its why we feel we fall behind as time passes
<Elidroth> currently, you have AA that adds nearly 1500 dmg on top of your flying kick.. every time you kick
<Maereax> and yet it still does less than 5% of our DPS
<Tanecho> Right, but it does not affect the remainder of the wu chain, my strikes do as little as 400 damage
<Elidroth> fine.. I'll make it more of your dps and reduce the other types of attacks so they can feel 'special'
..
<Elidroth> I'm interested in you being comparable to all other dps
<Elidroth> me personally, I'd like to see all dps be interchangable
<Elidroth> you don't have an insurmountable gap, but I'm not going to make all changes at once.. we're going to need to make adjustments and get there over some period of time
<Elidroth> I was already planning on doing something similar to the rogue's Massive Strike, but again I'll have to play with things


FoS:
<Obiziana> Monks - New rank/ranks of Fists of Steel. Making the proc Fists of Fury a perminant effect on the monk?
<Elidroth> New Fists of Steel - I'm ok with that. Making it a perm effect? No

ADPS:
<Elidroth> Trazz - I don't like the idea of monks becoming ADPS (Don't see what Trazz asked, but Master's aura was mentioned too)
<Elidroth> You need to be useful from pure dps, not what you bring to other groups

sustained:
<Copyright> Monks - Added ranks in extended crystal palm, extended speed focus, extended heel of kanji lines, any shot at any of the above? Those lines would help our sustained significantly
<Elidroth> Obiziana - sustained dps is definitely on my list of things I want to add for monks

h2h/kick
<Khoza> Monk - There was an idea floating around to add hand to hand damage to the Punch Mastery AA line. Is that still viable?
<Elidroth> Khoza - It's on my list of things to look at for sure
<Elidroth> I'm ok with more ranks of Stonefoot and Kick Mastery
<Sarayu> Was there any confirmation on including +H2H in Punch Mastery AA line?
<Elidroth> The H2H in punch mastery is something I need to evaluate

2hb:
<Obiziana> Eli, along the lines of monks DPS. Right now our 2hb dps is not even in the same ballpark as our h2h. Any chance we could get a new AA that would improve the sustained DPS of a big 2hb? Either through a large damage bonus or perhaps a proc similar to Fists of Fury?
<Elidroth> 2hb damage is something that can be improved, but if you're looking for parity across all weapon types that just isn't likely to happen
<Obiziana> Eli - Not parity, but maybe some improved damage and utility. One thought that was tossed around would be an AA to improve the dps to a level closer to 2h2 and maybe either a defensive proc to go along with it or an agro proc. The direction that 2hb seems to have gone for monks is when we're tanking, this might improve our ability to hold agro with a 2hb.
<Elidroth> I'm fine with adding more damage to 2hb
<Elidroth> I'd rather do it passively though

purify:
<Knotsure> Monks- I know its not a dps thing, but how about an increase in the ranks of Hastened Purification of Body.
<Elidroth> you're already at 12 min
<Elidroth> I don't really see a reason to take it lower than that
<Aggememnon> Its basically useful once per reasonable lenght event. I would not see the harm in shaving a min or 2 off it. Doubt it make any real difference
<Elidroth> we'll see..

accuracy:
<Szan> monks - for improving our sustained dps, how about an AA that increases our accuracy
<Elidroth> Szan - I'm ok with that. Accuracy increases are hard to quantify as to what's useful
<Elidroth> but I'm ok with working on that
<Brogett> Can take a look at rogue Razor's Edge maybe
<Brogett> (as an example accuracy boost)

accuracy/punch:
<Sarayu> I'm thinking H2H on Punch Mastery combined with accuracy is going to be an amazing route, Elidroth.
<Sarayu> Punch accuracy fully buffed - 81%
<Sarayu> Kick accuracy fully buffed - 89%
<Sarayu> Average melee hit, 1700
<Tanecho> I agree, I like the accuracy route as well as maybe more rapid strikes, it is more of the death by a thousand cuts style that has always been a trademark of the monk (most hits in x amount of time)
<Elidroth> Again.. I'm going to have to look over the data if I make that change
<Elidroth> to ensure it isn't a HUGE change


tigers passive:
<Khoza> Monk - Would like to see an passive AA version of the Tiger's Balance discipline. The damage would have to be lower, of course, but would like to see this happen, NOT linked to our normal specials, just proc off of regular melee.
<Elidroth> Khoza - I like the idea of a passive sort of Tiger's Balance, but yeah the damage would have to be reduced quite a bit
<Elidroth> the problem I worry about is if you load up too many procs, then things get VERY unpredictable as to what will trigger
<Daremok1> how would it stack with the active one?
<Elidroth> That's another very good question

reuse timers:
<Copyright> Monk - Dont want to come across in the wrong fashion, asked a bit ago, just in referece to added ranks of our extended discipline lines, crystal palm, heel of kanji, speed focus, or more hastened AAs in any of the above lines to bring the longer reuses down towards a 10min ish reuse. Ironfist in particular is still quite a long reuse and does not jive very well with crane stance which is what
<Copyright> I believe Ironfist currently is still a 30min reuse with max AA in the hastened line for that
<Elidroth> I don't see any reason to bring them down that far
<Elidroth> If you're not looking to bring abilities down to a number, then stop asking for that number
<Elidroth> this isn't some meta-game where you ask for something ridiculous in hopes I'll give you the actual number you want
<Khoza> Ironfist is the worst off of those. 20 minutes would be a big improvement. (Currently 30 minutes.)
<Copyright> Monk dps is severely lacking across the board in both burst and sustained
<Elidroth> I'm ok with some hastened Ironfist

baseline dps:
<Synyster> CAN U GIVE MONKS ANYTHING TO GIVE THEIR BASELINE DPS AN INCREASE?
<Elidroth> Yes.. I can
<Brogett> It can't be fixed with weapon ratios as beastlords are matching you already.
<Elidroth> let me think about that one

DMS:
<Khoza> Monk - Drunken Monkey Style is a disc from Underfoot, which hasn't been upgraded since. The AA, Zan Fi's Whistle, serves a similar purpose, but lacks the flying kick mod. (Drunken Monkey Flying Kick Boost, part of the drunken monkey style buff, adds 529 damage.) Could we get this added to Zan Fi's Whistle?
<Elidroth> I'm ok with adding it to Zan Fi's Whistle but I'll have to look at how much

MM:
<Trazz> Monks Collective Question Reuse timer modification on Moving Mountains. 20-25 seconds instead of 30? Also modification to the range from 200 to 250. Resounding Please!
<Elidroth> I'm ok with the change in timer but why the range?
..
<Elidroth> Interesting reasoning Trazz.. but no


mend:
<Rasputyn> Monks: One final rank of Critical Mend to make it always crit?
<Elidroth> no
<Elidroth> if something always crits.. then it isn't a crit anymore

NEW:
<Maereax> @Eli - Collective monk request. Can we get an AA line similar to Rogues Massive Strikes that procs off of Flying Kick? It would >help< bring our special attacks up to relative worthwhile-ness and help bring monks closer to where they should be. We figured like 25% chance to proc off a F-Kick and 10% chance to proc off itself. Commonly agreed name was Bycicle kick
<Elidroth> I'll work on something for a Flying Kick proc

<Tanecho> How about a flying kick that functions like a reverse moving mountains, a way to quickly close the gap with a moderate power strike?
<tonzofo> So basically a battle leap with a flying kick damage hit
<Elidroth> could do that
<Elidroth> the problem with the shadowstep thing is I have to either set it to a fixed distance, or fling you to your target, but that becomes problematic in where you land and such


future:
<Elidroth> there's a lot going on behind the scenes here that you don't know about yet, but let me just say I think we'll have a better chance at continuing the balance adjustments more frequently going forward
..
<Elidroth> in fact.. the list of things I've decided to do for Monks is TWICE AS LONG as the Rogue list
<Qulas> We need THREE times the help!
(LOL)
<Brogett> Regarding no class representative, feel free to discuss amongst yourselves and produce a set of community lead sensible requests and PM a CRT member

<Elidroth> I'm going to have to call it for tonight, but I'll read up through the logs that I've missed a bit to see if there's anything more I can work with.
<Elidroth> As far as ideas go, if you have more, please send them to me in a PM. I'll be sure to stay in contact with you via the forums to suss out the ideas with the community at large


Eli's hulk-out summary (midway):
<Elidroth> Stonewall, 1hb version of Fists of Steel, Stonefoot, H2H add to Punch Mastery, Damage increase to 2hb weaposn, Accuracy increase, Kick Mastery - More ranks & increase damage add, Hastened Ironfist, Stunning Kick resist adjustments, Rapid Strikes upgrades, Massive Strike type ability, Hastened Flying Kick, Crane Stance reuse adjustment - Maybe, Flying Kick mod to Zan Fi, Hastened Synergy abilities - Maybe

Ishtass
12-18-2012, 12:52 PM
<Maereax> @Eli - Collective monk request. Can we get an AA line similar to Rogues Massive Strikes that procs off of Flying Kick? It would >help< bring our special attacks up to relative worthwhile-ness and help bring monks closer to where they should be. We figured like 25% chance to proc off a F-Kick and 10% chance to proc off itself. Commonly agreed name was Bycicle kick


Totally buying this but ONLY if they use that commonly agreed spelling

Maereax
12-18-2012, 02:11 PM
Haters gone hate

Ughbash
12-18-2012, 02:22 PM
<Maereax> @Eli - Collective monk request. Can we get an AA line similar to Rogues Massive Strikes that procs off of Flying Kick? It would >help< bring our special attacks up to relative worthwhile-ness and help bring monks closer to where they should be. We figured like 25% chance to proc off a F-Kick and 10% chance to proc off itself. Commonly agreed name was Bycicle kick


Totally buying this but ONLY if they use that commonly agreed spelling

I disagree. I think it shows the esteem they hold monks in if they mispell it :)

Maybe in an expansion or two they can offer an AA that spells it correctly.

Maereax
12-18-2012, 02:38 PM
I'd buy an AA that generated us a random pull message each time we went to pull, but only if it included the phrases "one" "a few" "probably some" "orange" and " you're going to want to gate" as the amount of mobs incoming.

Ughbash
12-18-2012, 03:18 PM
I'd buy an AA that generated us a random pull message each time we went to pull, but only if it included the phrases "one" "a few" "probably some" "orange" and " you're going to want to gate" as the amount of mobs incoming.

YOu mean you don't have 5 hot keys with differnt pull messages on them depending on what you do?

I personally do not have an "orange" but then I tend to use "OMG 30+ mobs RUN FOR THE HILLS"

Trazz
12-18-2012, 03:29 PM
It was disappointing how Elidroth handled monks.. But I think if he reads the logs, he may feel a bit different after the fact.

/pause

Nedrom
12-18-2012, 03:33 PM
It was disappointing how Elidroth handled monks.. But I think if he reads the logs, he may feel a bit different after the fact.

/pause

I don't think that at all, I think he handled it rather well considering how "we" were handling it. I know I wasn't there, but wow, you guys were a tad bit embarrassing.

Trazz
12-18-2012, 03:50 PM
I don't think that at all, I think he handled it rather well considering how "we" were handling it. I know I wasn't there, but wow, you guys were a tad bit embarrassing.

Guess you should have been there. Then everything would be peachy!

Maereax
12-18-2012, 03:56 PM
I don't think that at all, I think he handled it rather well considering how "we" were handling it. I know I wasn't there, but wow, you guys were a tad bit embarrassing.

Elaborate?

Nedrom
12-18-2012, 03:58 PM
Elaborate?

Just read it man.

Nedrom
12-18-2012, 03:59 PM
Guess you should have been there. Then everything would be peachy!

I'm not that guy anymore.

Maereax
12-18-2012, 04:00 PM
Just read it man.

I was there. I think there was a few points that we were shitty, but we weren't the only ones by far.

Nedrom
12-18-2012, 04:01 PM
I was there. I think there was a few points that we were shitty, but we weren't the only ones by far.

points are one thing, attitude is a whole nother ball of wax.

Maereax
12-18-2012, 04:07 PM
points are one thing, attitude is a whole nother ball of wax.

I meant points in time that we as a whole were acting shitty

Nedrom
12-18-2012, 04:09 PM
Yeah

Mris
12-18-2012, 06:21 PM
YOu mean you don't have 5 hot keys with differnt pull messages on them depending on what you do?

I personally do not have an "orange" but then I tend to use "OMG 30+ mobs RUN FOR THE HILLS"

I used to have 4. "/g INC %t" is a standard on every character I have, always goes on hotkey 0. "/g INC 2" and "/g INC 3" were only on the monk. And finally... "/rs INC 4+ Blame the damned druids!" This because there were only 2 healers in guild (a cler and a shm) who listened when I said not to heal during pulls. I booted druids from raid at times, when I was raid leader. (Ones who weren't even in my group. I took the reliable shaman if I was the one making groups. But the druids were still tards.)

Kaliaila
12-19-2012, 02:00 AM
I think you are reading malice where there wasn't. I read it and while yes at times some people got out of hand, but every time it was proceeded by Elidroth starting being rude and short when the people asking the questions were being rather civil, if at times sarcastic; the whole FK discussion that lead to his rant is a great example. Up till that point I thought ok things might get addressed; but then his fit and nd refusal to even consider what was being said was so bad I couldn't read much more.

Anyway my thoughts on what I read:
Where did our info about SK's having a 30 sec fade+FD? I know it was discussed here and in serverwide for a few weeks, but a someone said that there was no such AA. Just wondering how this wasn't found before the IRC.
I say the whole FK discussion should be taken as to not ask anymore for anything about our specials and instead focus exclusively on our H2H dps being increased to fill the gap.
I also wonder if Eli is really as aware of our position as he thinks. There are really no ways to make us interchangeable without a major jump that I can see.
I am also really skeptical of this ALL dps being interchangeable thing. I am just kind of cynical and think that it will end up being Rangers and Beasts and such also doing the same dps plus their utility.

I will also say props to the Rogues they were understanding and even supportive.

Trazz
12-19-2012, 12:13 PM
I think you are reading malice where there wasn't. I read it and while yes at times some people got out of hand, but every time it was proceeded by Elidroth starting being rude and short when the people asking the questions were being rather civil, if at times sarcastic; the whole FK discussion that lead to his rant is a great example. Up till that point I thought ok things might get addressed; but then his fit and nd refusal to even consider what was being said was so bad I couldn't read much more.


Couldn't agree more.

Gorkeyah
12-19-2012, 12:24 PM
One reaction I had to the chat log was that there were conflicting messages being given at times. For instance, some wanted 1hb added to fists of steel. It's been discussed here before. But in the chat there's a 'wtf? who wants 1hb added to fists? that's stupid' reaction. heh

Another example is the other special attacks in wu chains. The original purpose of that AA line was to meet a desire of monks to make use of our old attacks for extra dps, now we're acting like that was the stupidest idea ever and it should only be extra flying kicks.

Yes it doesn't help as much as needed to boost our dps up to where we want it, but I think it's fine as is. The solution could be to make those other attacks stronger, which is what the other punch mastery line was supposed to do. In general, though, it seems fine to me for 'flavor' and we should fix dps elsewhere.

Speaking of flavor... some of the talk about getting our timers all in line, and making dps classes more equal, worried me a little. Without that weirdness in skills and timers, there will be little opportunity to play things differently than the next guy and will make the game a bit more boring.

Aggememnon
12-19-2012, 12:31 PM
I hope he is going to look at disc timers. Not sure what his argument could be against. Having just looked at the zerk chat log, it seems they made a similar argument, and looks like they succeeded. And looks like they got destructive force ... Why the hell they were asking for better mitigation I have no idea..

I hope we don't need another IRC chat to have to ask for more stuff to balance the other changes that are going to be coming to zerk/rog...

Ughbash
12-19-2012, 01:10 PM
Look back on the logs. NOONE asked for 1hb and Fist of Steel. There was comment about that for 2hb but not 1hb.

I was glad to see we said no to 1hb because that is NOT something we asked for. It also would be useless for increasing our dps, it would at best allow 1hb to equal (or come close to equal) our hth.

Maereax
12-19-2012, 01:12 PM
I was the one that said something about SKs having a 30s ID timer, and it was incorrect information, by the way. Someone had said that, and I just never logged into my buddies toon and checked it out - it was misinformation. Their ID timer is 2 minutes along with ours.

Maereax
12-19-2012, 01:13 PM
Look back on the logs. NOONE asked for 1hb and Fist of Steel. There was comment about that for 2hb but not 1hb.


He said somewhere that it was the very first thing asked in the chat, it might have been before we all got there. I know I was a little late to the party

Gorkeyah
12-19-2012, 03:11 PM
Look back on the logs. NOONE asked for 1hb and Fist of Steel. There was comment about that for 2hb but not 1hb.

I was glad to see we said no to 1hb because that is NOT something we asked for. It also would be useless for increasing our dps, it would at best allow 1hb to equal (or come close to equal) our hth.

Yeah, I didn't see anything about it in the logs posted here either, but I've seen it discussed here before.

Gorkeyah
12-19-2012, 03:12 PM
I hope we don't need another IRC chat to have to ask for more stuff to balance the other changes that are going to be coming to zerk/rog...

That was my thought too. Welcome to rogue/zerk 2012, monks! -Too bad they're at 2013 levels now! heh

Mris
12-19-2012, 11:14 PM
Look back on the logs. NOONE asked for 1hb and Fist of Steel. There was comment about that for 2hb but not 1hb.

My logs weren't auto-on like I set them to be, so I missed the first question or two. That was one of the first things requested. Then a shitstorm of rogue questions. Pretty sure that's all I missed, though, after Eli got there.

I did NOT miss anything about Hastened FK or Stonewall. He pulled those out of his ass, I guess to make his 'yes' list impressive. (Likewise, he had also said no to hastened Synergy before that.)

Ahnanna
12-27-2012, 11:43 AM
All I saw when reading through that was "nope". For example increasing range on MM. That way we don't have to use two keys to pull a single mob (or move closer.. oh the humanity (Iksarity?)).

And I really really don't get his resistance to lowering ID from 2 minutes. He simply says no but doesn't really justify how lowering it would be a problem. I don't know how everyone else uses it but I use it as a pulling tool. And having to wait 2 minutes for it to refresh at times is very inconvenient and just slow things down. Especially when they like to push EQ as a group game. Its not bad when I am soloing or whatever but when you have 5 other people waiting on you that's a problem.

Trazz
12-27-2012, 05:47 PM
All I saw when reading through that was "nope". For example increasing range on MM. That way we don't have to use two keys to pull a single mob (or move closer.. oh the humanity (Iksarity?)).

And I really really don't get his resistance to lowering ID from 2 minutes. He simply says no but doesn't really justify how lowering it would be a problem. I don't know how everyone else uses it but I use it as a pulling tool. And having to wait 2 minutes for it to refresh at times is very inconvenient and just slow things down. Especially when they like to push EQ as a group game. Its not bad when I am soloing or whatever but when you have 5 other people waiting on you that's a problem.

Elidroth - You should be focusing on being a pure dps..
Monks - Ok, can we get help with that since we suck at Pure DPS?
Elidroth - No
Monks - Ok, can we be a leader when it comes to pulling with advanced ID and MM?
Elidroth - No
Monks - Ummm.. Mehh..
Rogues - Hey Elidroth, can we get Hastened Backstab?
Elidroth - Yeah, that's cool...
Monks - WTFAK!?
Elidroth - Why are you monks complaining... I might give you FoS effect for 1hblunt cuz that's what you asked for...
Monks - OMG...
...

disclaimer: This is not actual chat logs.. But how I interpreted them.. Maybe some people took it differently, maybe some agree.. Don't hate the player, hate the game - fitting.

Trazz
12-27-2012, 05:54 PM
Some of his answers were "I will check into it" or "possible" so I guess it wasn't really fair to say he was indicating no..

What was frustrating though was he asked for specifics and once we started being very literal and specific, he seemed to get much shorter and condescending then lashing out.

/shrug maybe he was just having a bad day.

newkainn
12-27-2012, 08:41 PM
i got out of this, that he want to raise our sustained dps. i am good with that. he was dodgy about how to get there but like he said he has to be careful raising a skill as it has a chance to mushroom out on the other end and monks are a little touchy about getting nerfed. frankly i don't care what he does to improve dps as long as it does improve the dps. i get that eli is not a people person and seems biased to other class's but monks aren't everyone's cup of tea. as long as our dps gets a substantial raise he can be as snippy as he wants.

Batuo
12-28-2012, 05:46 PM
What makes you think Eli is biased against monks - he said he played one once a few months ago...

:confused:

sojuu
12-28-2012, 06:11 PM
I gotta agree with nedrom it was handled badly. Seemed to be a mess. I know I wasnt there either but it could have been handled better. But it didnt help the fact rogues and monks were fighting to get answers.

tanecho
12-29-2012, 03:02 PM
Anybody else getting beat by beastlords now? I'm still using VoA T3 weapons, but I was getting out damaged consistently by beastlords, on a 2.5 minute fight I was putting out about 46k to their 56k. And they were in my group, so no difference in group composition. (Bard, Zerk, Shaman, BL, Monk, Ranger, Sep 2 burn on the Herald). Wizard did 66k on same fight.

On Sep 1, same BL lived 65 seconds to my 118 and did slightly more damage than I did (granted I had no crane kick for this).

The wizard I have no issue with losing to, they do nothing but DPS, but beastlord has one of the best long duration (ferocity) AND one of the best short duration (fury) DPS buffs.

I remember said BL being competitve last expansion, but never beating me by such a large margin. We are similar in AA counts (VOA maxed + 80% of RoF good AAs) and use the exact same weapons.

jorekil
12-29-2012, 03:55 PM
I think the biggest issue with the BL and any other hybrid outparsing you that they get spell upgrades right away while pure melee always have to wait for weapon upgrades in order to be competitive.

Gorkeyah
12-29-2012, 10:14 PM
I think the biggest issue with the BL and any other hybrid outparsing you that they get spell upgrades right away while pure melee always have to wait for weapon upgrades in order to be competitive.

True, but weapon upgrades seem hardly noticeable lately. I think they keep adding about the same flat amount, so the percent improvement drops, though I haven't really tried to prove this out with math.

tanecho
12-30-2012, 01:44 AM
I feel the issue is more that they are getting % upgrades and we are getting # upgrades. Eli was talking about the amount of damage that gets added to each of our kicks through AAs. Yeah, great, but that's ALL they improve from one expansion to the next.

Weapons, yeah more of our damage comes from the weapon than theirs, but I don't think any weapon upgrade from VOA is going to overcome a 25+% difference in burst potential, the best weapon in the game doesn't have a 25% better ratio than mine.

Ishtass
12-30-2012, 11:33 PM
I think the biggest issue with the BL and any other hybrid outparsing you that they get spell upgrades right away while pure melee always have to wait for weapon upgrades in order to be competitive.

omgz BUT WATING 4 FOCII EFFECTS MAKE CASTURS SUKKKK /shitbrix

Maereax
12-31-2012, 03:46 PM
I feel the issue is more that they are getting % upgrades and we are getting # upgrades. Eli was talking about the amount of damage that gets added to each of our kicks through AAs. Yeah, great, but that's ALL they improve from one expansion to the next.

Weapons, yeah more of our damage comes from the weapon than theirs, but I don't think any weapon upgrade from VOA is going to overcome a 25+% difference in burst potential, the best weapon in the game doesn't have a 25% better ratio than mine.

^ +1

Nedrom
12-31-2012, 07:25 PM
^ +1

indeed

Aggememnon
01-08-2013, 09:09 AM
Ned's comment here made me think: http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?p=310374#post310374

My understanding (and correct me if I am wrong!) is that fists of fury (the fists of steel proc) is a 15 hh effect for h2h and 2hb, and that there is only +dam to h2h weapons. With respect to the IIRC chat, there was some request to add a new 'fists' effect for 1hb, which Eli said someone had requested (and no logs of that request). I'm thinking now that maybe the request *should* have been to add 1hb to the current 'fists' enabled h2h and 2hb weapons (which should not be hard). More to the point though, it would be worth adding +dam to the 2hb and 1hb. (Especially given some monk tanks use 2hb, and given the baton of flame is pretty tasty). ie. make fists of steel work for all monk weapons.

Or am I talking nonsense or missing something??

tanecho
01-08-2013, 09:22 AM
It just really feels like they're creating a problem, offering to fix it, and wanting us to be super happy about it with the 1hb/baton of flame thing. It really seems the simpler solution is to change 1 weapon then go to the trouble to change 9 AAs. I may be stuck in the old ways, but I don't think we should be using 1hbs once we get to a certain point in the game.

Ughbash
01-08-2013, 09:26 AM
Ned's comment here made me think: http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?p=310374#post310374

My understanding (and correct me if I am wrong!) is that fists of fury (the fists of steel proc) is a 15 hh effect for h2h and 2hb, and that there is only +dam to h2h weapons. With respect to the IIRC chat, there was some request to add a new 'fists' effect for 1hb, which Eli said someone had requested (and no logs of that request). I'm thinking now that maybe the request *should* have been to add 1hb to the current 'fists' enabled h2h and 2hb weapons (which should not be hard). More to the point though, it would be worth adding +dam to the 2hb and 1hb. (Especially given some monk tanks use 2hb, and given the baton of flame is pretty tasty). ie. make fists of steel work for all monk weapons.

Or am I talking nonsense or missing something??

Even if Fist of Steel worked with 1hb, it would not suddenly cause us to start using 1hb. The problem is also an itemization one. Monks get a signifigant portion of their DPS from additive functions, things that add +x to each hit. This means we need FASTER weapons to do more damage. Even though they have the same ratio a hypothetical 18/108 Hth will out dps a hypothetical 26/156 1hb.

Now if they made Fist of Steel work on 1hb as well as others AND changed itemization to allow us some 18 delay 1hb then we might use it. However that would also be a BIG boon to other classes (Sword and Board warrior especially) and our ranking in the dps classes woudl fall even more. It would give us more options and give other classes more dps.

Aggememnon
01-08-2013, 09:27 AM
I like h2h, but if 1hb is viable I would use it. Especially given rarity of h2h drops recently. Also, its not just 1hb. +dam added to 2hb would be a nice side bonus...

Nedrom
01-08-2013, 10:28 AM
Fists of Steel should have worked on 1hb since day 1, that's just my honest opinion.

Right now it works on H2H and 2HB, if they are going by logic of only wanting us to use h2h then why is 2hb even on there at all?

My suggestion would be to not create a new AA line just for 1hb as others have said but to just fix fists of steel to work on h2h, 1hb and 2hb.

Noone is saying this will suddenly fix 1hb damage, but it will make a large difference compared to what it is now, more than changing ratios of the weapons.

Maereax
01-08-2013, 03:05 PM
Fixing fists of steel would be great (I actually hate the idea but whatever) minus one thing-

Weather it be through other classes QQomgwtfux or bias on the dev team or aliens, we're usually limited on what we get. We don't get everything we need to fix us, we get X number of fixes/upgrades and we're done, and "using up" one of these limited amount of things on more 1hb damage (which at the peak of our dps isn't our ideal setup) when we could get something that would.

sensei savager
01-08-2013, 04:06 PM
any increase to 1hb is stupid imo

Nedrom
01-08-2013, 04:26 PM
any increase to 1hb is stupid imo

Perhaps from your perspective it doesn't make sense, but you're speaking for a minority of players out there who has access to any H2H weapon they want.

There are a lot of monks out there with no access to the best h2h weapons and may be left with access for 2hb or 1hb weapons.

Sometimes when trying to improve our class you have to look at the whole picture, not just the top end game raiders.

Maereax
01-08-2013, 05:13 PM
Sometimes when trying to improve our class you have to look at the whole picture, not just the top end game raiders.

This is absolutely true, however, even if the minority of the games players have access to the top end h2hs, the majority of the monks that contribute to the issues our class is experiencing are mid/top end raiders and that's where our class is struggling most at the moment. We're fairly strong groupers and can keep up when other classes aren't max aa/have the best weapons/spells. Where we really hurt is high end raiding, which this change does nothing to benefit.

Also, providing limitations on what weapons we can actually "use" does benefit us in any guild that gives a damn about getting the most out of their raiders. There's no reason not to prioritize monks over beast lords on h2h weapons when that's all that we can use

Vothsisx
01-08-2013, 05:18 PM
Perhaps from your perspective it doesn't make sense, but you're speaking for a minority of players out there who has access to any H2H weapon they want.

There are a lot of monks out there with no access to the best h2h weapons and may be left with access for 2hb or 1hb weapons.

Sometimes when trying to improve our class you have to look at the whole picture, not just the top end game raiders.

Would a new 1HB be better than an old H2H even with the damage bonus provided by our AA?

RoF's two T2 1HB are both 96/23 (4.17)
VoA's three T4 H2H are 80/18 (4.44), 88/20 (4.4), and 84/19 (4.42)

The ratios are going to be better on the H2H it looks like.

Ishtass
01-08-2013, 07:36 PM
I definitely don't have access to the best h2h, and I'd be annoyed with pushing the 1hb route. Too many of our AA are geared towards H2H, and pushing 1hb would require a LOT more than FoS.

Vothsisx
01-08-2013, 09:27 PM
Chandrok says the Baton is staying 1HB but he's looking at a way to make it viable for monks. No go on Wurmscale Fistwraps or any new NToV stuff.

tanecho
01-09-2013, 12:04 AM
It affects beastlords too, as I understand it Gelid Claw won't fire on blunts either. This seriously boggles my mind. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Rogue or Necro better, if guild only currently has 2-3 of each?

Celephane
01-09-2013, 04:58 AM
Go rogue, I hear they might be getting a drachnid illusion

Maereax
01-09-2013, 07:28 AM
Go rogue, I hear they might be getting a drachnid illusion

With a shadowstep and a poison proc

Aggememnon
01-09-2013, 07:36 AM
Too many of our AA are geared towards H2H, and pushing 1hb would require a LOT more than FoS.Maybe I am being daft, but what *is* tied to h2h? ZF, 2nd spire, and the base of DMS all work for 1hb. Did I forget some AA?

I was bidding on baton last night (lost to BL), but did not realise gelid does not work on that.

And where is this info on rog illusions coming from?

Aggememnon
01-09-2013, 07:46 AM
Anybody else getting beat by beastlords now? I'm still using VoA T3 weapons, but I was getting out damaged consistently by beastlords, on a 2.5 minute fight I was putting out about 46k to their 56k. And they were in my group, so no difference in group composition. (Bard, Zerk, Shaman, BL, Monk, Ranger, Sep 2 burn on the Herald). Wizard did 66k on same fight.

...

I remember said BL being competitve last expansion, but never beating me by such a large margin. We are similar in AA counts (VOA maxed + 80% of RoF good AAs) and use the exact same weapons.

Same experience. Did they get another power boost this expansion? I think last night was first time I got beat on sustained by a BL (5 min), and the bursts I can see he would take me at times from my parser, but luckily (lol) most fights seem sustained right now....

Nedrom
01-09-2013, 11:08 AM
I definitely don't have access to the best h2h, and I'd be annoyed with pushing the 1hb route. Too many of our AA are geared towards H2H, and pushing 1hb would require a LOT more than FoS.

FoS is the only AA that is geared towards h2h. Nothing else gives h2h bonus over 1hb.

In addition to FoS not working on 1hb, the fact that 1hb has typically weaker ratios over h2h is the reason why 1hb is less dps for us.

1hb has less ratio because other classes can use it and h2h is balanced to be better for MNK BST.

This wasn't a problem in the past when raid zones had 1 x h2h and 1 x 1hb, now all raid zones have multiple h2h so that also made 1hb less desireable

Nedrom
01-09-2013, 11:13 AM
Maybe I am being daft, but what *is* tied to h2h? ZF, 2nd spire, and the base of DMS all work for 1hb. Did I forget some AA?

I was bidding on baton last night (lost to BL), but did not realise gelid does not work on that.

And where is this info on rog illusions coming from?

not daft, everything works on 1hb except FoS

Ishtass
01-09-2013, 11:22 AM
Yup, I was wrong. I guess after too long of me wanting to be no where near a 1hb for the delay difference, I had it in my head.

Ughbash
01-10-2013, 12:09 PM
FoS is the only AA that is geared towards h2h. Nothing else gives h2h bonus over 1hb.

In addition to FoS not working on 1hb, the fact that 1hb has typically weaker ratios over h2h is the reason why 1hb is less dps for us.

1hb has less ratio because other classes can use it and h2h is balanced to be better for MNK BST.

This wasn't a problem in the past when raid zones had 1 x h2h and 1 x 1hb, now all raid zones have multiple h2h so that also made 1hb less desireable

Not only ratio but delay is an issue. As we have gotten more abilities that add a flat damage bonus to each hit we need low delay weapons. Xan Fi, Second Spire etc give us +dam per hit. To maximize this we need low delay weapon. So even with the hypothetical 18/90 vs 25/125 (both a 5.0 ratio) we do a lot more with the 18 delay.

Ratio is still KING, always will be (why we do not use 18 delay jade maces), but delay is the Prince. When the king is indifferent a wise monk pays attention to the Prince.

Nedrom
01-10-2013, 12:16 PM
I disagree.

Zan Fi, 2nd Spire etc... works on all weapon types, not just h2h.

I'd rather use an 20 delay 121 damage weapon over an 18 delay 100 damage weapon.

raw damage > +dmg hands down

Ughbash
01-10-2013, 12:57 PM
I disagree.

Zan Fi, 2nd Spire etc... works on all weapon types, not just h2h.

I'd rather use an 20 delay 121 damage weapon over an 18 delay 100 damage weapon.

raw damage > +dmg hands down

First if you notice the ratios I used were equal.

The ones you used were 6.05 and 5.56 (which is why I siad Ratio is King) Though I suspect those ratios might be close enough it woudl be hard to tell which is better.

Now what I say when listen to the prince means that if instead you had 20/121 (6.05) ratio and 18/108 (6.0 ratio) the 18/108 is definitely the way to go.

Look at Ratio first, then if they are close go with speed.

Now I was ALSO talking about 1hb which tend to have speeds of 25 or 26 (usually slower the 1hs weapons). So if you had a choice of using a 6.0 ratio 25/150 1hb or the 5.56 ratio 18/100 you would find that the 18/100 would outperform the 1hb EVEN IF Fist of steel worked on 1hb.

Aggememnon
01-10-2013, 01:04 PM
Ugh - the reason I brought this up (in post a couple above) was the baton of flame, which is the ratio Ned is using in the discussion:
Baton of Flame 1HB Slot: Primary, Secondary
DMG: 121 Delay: 20 Ratio: 6.05
Fire DMG: 1
AC: 81 HP: 2782 + 3/tick MANA: 2645 + 3/tick END: 2760 ATK: 33
Required level of 95.
Class: RNG, MNK, BRD, ROG, BST

(NToV revamp)

Basically its on par ratio AND delay with the h2h weapons...

Rasputyn
01-10-2013, 02:13 PM
Part of the problem with all this is our AA development is now working at cross purposes.

Elidroth said he'll add 1hb to Fists of Fury which is ok, but he is also looking into adding h2h damage to Punch Mastery. If he does that and it's anything like the benefit that rangers/rogues get from the Scout's Mastery of XYZ lines, then we're right back to being locked into h2h.

tanecho
01-10-2013, 05:04 PM
So, from what I read briefly about the scout's mastery things, they elevate damage table top values?

Because that would explain so much if they removed our heightened damage table and then heightened the damage table of some other classes during the time I wasn't raiding.

Rasputyn
01-10-2013, 05:25 PM
That's my understanding of it, yes. I haven't parsed it out personally to confirm it.

Maereax
01-10-2013, 08:53 PM
Where'd you find that info?

Archus
01-10-2013, 09:16 PM
Ugh - the reason I brought this up (in post a couple above) was the baton of flame, which is the ratio Ned is using in the discussion:
Baton of Flame 1HB Slot: Primary, Secondary
DMG: 121 Delay: 20 Ratio: 6.05
Fire DMG: 1
AC: 81 HP: 2782 + 3/tick MANA: 2645 + 3/tick END: 2760 ATK: 33
Required level of 95.
Class: RNG, MNK, BRD, ROG, BST

(NToV revamp)

Basically its on par ratio AND delay with the h2h weapons...

Little off topic, but this weapon is MNK BST only now. Had one drop this past weekend.

Rasputyn
01-10-2013, 10:31 PM
I remember Brogett saying it some place about scout's mastery of piercing for rogues. Don't remember where though. Might check beta forum under rogue AA.

Aggememnon
01-11-2013, 06:03 AM
Archus - yes ur right. I was being lazy and copy pasted from raidloot. We had one drop this week too...

Just found this about on safehouse:
" Scout's mastery of piercing 3 ranks : more damage with piercing weapons (passive) : modification of our dmg table with piercing (around + 0.25%)"

And from Brog:
"Scout's Mastery of Piercing

So this directly adds to our damage table when using pierced weapons. Our damage table is currently 3.85 (yes I know monks always quote it as approx twice as high, but they're wrong in their assumption of EQ math). In beta when damage tables were at 3.75, the 3 ranks boosted it to 3.84, 3.92 and 4.00. I haven't yet verified, but I would expect those to all be .1 higher, ie 4.1 instead.

Bear in mind that how the damage table works is we pick a random number between 1.00 and damage table and multiply the hit by that (before adding +damage components like damage bonus, heroic strength, etc and before applying any minimum hit modifiers like Ferocity X). Hence our minimum hit won't change, but the maximum hit will, by I think 0.5 * weapon_damage.

It's not a huge boost (maybe 4% dps - math approximations, not parsed), but it all counts."

cf. http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38188

Maereax
01-11-2013, 06:14 AM
I always assumed those were flat damage per hit. Holy fuck. They nerfed our damage tables and then improved rogues and rangers. God damn I love this game.

Aggememnon
01-11-2013, 06:32 AM
rangers?

brogett
01-11-2013, 08:13 AM
I always assumed those were flat damage per hit. Holy fuck. They nerfed our damage tables and then improved rogues and rangers. God damn I love this game.

Rangers were the first to get this line:

http://eqaasearch.org/aainfo.asp?search_fd1=*scout%27s+mastery+of+*&search_fd12=Ranger

Rogues got 3 more ranks in RoF (still behind the ranger's 9), but I can't test them independently as I didn't get a chance during to beta to do much parsing. I'll try and get something sorted to pin rank 6 at least. It seems /testcopy broke again too. :-(

The effect is to boost the damage tables, although whether it's table+X or table*Y I don't really know. The net effect though is the table is higher. If monks want a overall boost to both sustained and burst then this line of AA is an easy way to get it.

Note that a parse of Aggememnon during a couple raids last night showed only 60% of total damage output was "hit", so you have to remember that when factoring in any projected damage increases.

Edit: retesting the VoA ones it seems the figures changed since beta too. I see 3.851 (base, rank 0), 3.907, 3.9676m 4.023, 4.079 (rank 4, max I could get on test). Given the way the maths works this could easily be 1 + 2.851 to 1 + 3.079 with the 1 being the base dmg and the damage table being additional damage. If expressed that way, each rank is precisely another 2% jump in the base 2.851 (or alternatively it's 1.48% per rank if the 1+ is factored in).

Therefore 6 ranks equates to 12% higher. I really need to be able to do /resetaa on test with a level 100 toon though to see if it's percentage based or fixed amount, as my base dmg table must be different at 100 than 96 (my tests above).

Testing on live with my lvl 100 char, no worn Fero to avoid min hit mods with scout's mastery of piercing rank 6/6: 100 pierce MH, 103 slash offhand (with no +elemental dmg). I quote "2x" spike clearly visible in damage histogram plus max.
1HS: 2x=280, max=888, dam_table = 1 + 2.9515 [ (888-280)/2/103 ]
1HP: 2x=518, max=1179, dam_table = 1 + 3.305 [ (1179-518)/2/100 ]

3.305/2.9515 = 1.1198, so 12% and still fitting the estimated 2% per rank.

The big difference in damage bonus between MH and OH is due to etherium blade AA which adds a flat +210 to every pierce attack. This means the 12% higher damage table is nowhere near the same as 12% higher average damage from pierce attacks. Something like 30% of my average hit comes from bonus now, not multiplicative weapon damage.

tanecho
01-11-2013, 08:44 AM
Yeah, we should have asked for this. I had no idea they had done this. This was not in the Vision!

tanecho
01-11-2013, 08:48 AM
Give us disciple's mastery of unarmed / armed combat, do the 1hb on fists of steel that no one asked for but goofy itemization dictates, and see where we stand. It probably still won't be enough to put us above rangers/beastlords, but it is a step in the right direction and one more in line with the history of the game.

Aggememnon
01-11-2013, 10:12 AM
We need a master list someplace. We have a couple of ideas borrowed from rogues now, and other approved ideas from the IRC chat to boost sustained in particular:

massive strike (rog massive strike)
transcendent's armed/unarmed mastery (scout's mastery)
accuracy (Razor's edge)
1hb included on FoS
ZF - add fly kick mod for DMS

There is plenty of other stuff on that list too...

And thanks Brog for the rapid work you did there!

Mris
01-11-2013, 10:35 AM
Didn't they tell us at one point they weren't going to touch damage tables anymore? I assumed (like many, it appears) that Scout's Mastery lines were +damage.

And, off topic a bit (a lot):


(yes I know monks always quote it as approx twice as high, but they're wrong in their assumption of EQ math).

Aren't these the same people who multiply it by 2 once they put it into the equation?

brogett
01-11-2013, 11:24 AM
Aren't these the same people who multiply it by 2 once they put it into the equation?

Mobs obviously have DB and DI which is a ROLL(1..20)*dam/10.

Players also still have the ROLL(1..20)*dam/10, but also an additional PCDAM component which is a random number between 1.00 and damage table in 0.01 increments (provable by looking for gaps in the high hits caused by backstab).

The fact that players have the DI roll coupled with the damage table roll is what gives you the *2 component often factored in, but it's really from the base maths shared by NPCs too.

Remove your Fero item and do a parse for a couple minutes - 2-3 is fine - preferably with 1hb offhand and h2h primary so you get different weapon types to split up, and with no elemental damage so it's all pure hits. (eg not 100 + 1poison). Load it up in Gamparse and you'll see two big spikes. The left one is PCDAM=1.00, DI=20. The right one is PCDAM=<max>, DI=20. If you leave it long enough you also get PCDAM=<max>, DI=1 to 20 smaller spikes. Something like this: http://www.brogett.plus.com/Images/hit_dist.png

The histograms tell you a lot about how the formulae are working, which is why I claim damage table is half what most people claim it to be. :-)

Ishtass
01-11-2013, 12:28 PM
I love seeing some insights into the math, thanks Brog

zothis
01-11-2013, 02:04 PM
should have just shown him http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/Monk_Suggestions.php

tanecho
01-21-2013, 12:28 AM
Every rogue in my guild now has a dagger from ToV (3 dropped this clear), still not seen a single h2h out of sep 2 or 3, and the baton of flame hasn't dropped either (not that anyone would loot it in its current state). RNG I know, blah blah blah, but I was getting absolutely crushed before their upgrades and now I definitely feel like I would benefit the guild greatly by just switching to my bard and cease wasting a raid spot.

Anyone heard any developments on our front if things are going to get better?

Gorkeyah
01-21-2013, 02:01 AM
There's two 20dly h2h's in the t1 raids you can buy for currency. I just won one of them tonight. First monk weapon drop we've had in what seems like forever.

Aggememnon
01-21-2013, 07:52 AM
I'm pretty annoyed with the h2h drop rates too. No h2h off dragons or in RoF t1, while we have seen 2 rog only pierces (off 3 attempts off Zlexak). There is no reason to think the abysmal drop rates from VoA t4 will not continue in RoF, where we had 1 of each h2h weapons in total, and somethign ridiculous like x10 rog only daggers.

What makes things worse is that, afaik, there is only 1 h2h in veeshan, and it comes from the end boss, which few have beaten. Although it may just be super rare drop from one of the other dragons. I thought that ROG only daggers were supposed to be rare? Typically they drop off the same mob that drops h2h weapons, and recently seems to be dropping more. I wonder of the loot table has been messed up, and the ROG are dropping at the rates that should be attributed to h2h? And if they copy paste tables between expansions then maybe that would explain things..In Veeshan, the ROG only dagger drops from the same mob that drops the 1hb (baton of flames). And of course if it does drop (1/3 for us), you need to bid against BL for it. How come there are no mnk only weapons?

I'd really like to hear whats going on with changes planned for monks too. Also - anyone tried breeding grounds? I was actually 'pulling' there, and getting massive amounts of resists to my mezz, and 'unaffected' for the lull. So even our 'pulling' ability is plummeting. That, and FD potions, slaughtered on burn dps by to rog/zerks (and even BLs at times)....its a real bad time for monks ;(

tanecho
01-21-2013, 09:24 AM
I'm being beaten by wizards, necros, rogues, zerkers, BLs, some rangers, and especially magicians right now (had a mage beat me by 45% on Koi'Doken with all discs used). Ranger might be because they have better weapons than me, but I don't have a valid explanation for the rest other than monks are severely underpowered, or I'm just awful at this game. I assume I'm not awful, as the majority of that list was either behind me or relatively close last expansion.

From my experience in breeding grounds, it wasn't resists but immunity, which is really rough. I switched to my bard and used snare to split rooms initially when I wasn't with a group that could handle multiples. Only other reliable quick split was moving mountains / imitate death, and that's only every 2 minutes.

My guild has yet to beat a ROF T1 raid, they are hell bent on farming ToV while working to finish Sep. Which is sad for me, only thing I want in entire ToV zone is a T1 BP.

Gorkeyah
01-21-2013, 12:22 PM
Why do you want at T1 BP? The click? The BP's in rof are mostly a step down if you have a powered up aug in your voa bp, though I'm glad they're getting rid of the aug slot.

The T1 raids are said to be easy, but I didn't think they were. heh With full turn outs of the right players, I suppose they're not bad. We struggled with bad player turn out for weeks because of the holidays. We've beaten shards, crystal, and kael, and we're working on ew. With what we've beaten so far, 2 h2h weapons are on the vendor (one from shards, the other from Kael, I think). Both 20dly and the same ratio as that baton in ToV (131/20 with 10dmg aug?)

Speaking of which, I had the voa t4 20dly weapon, and the beasts t3 18dly weapon. When I got the rof t1 20dly weapon, I replaced my t3 weapon with it. I figured the .5 or so ratio increase was enough to overcome the dly loss. What does everyone think? I think it's 110/18 vs 131/20 with aug. The rof is slight better than the t4 weapon also, so it would still be an upgrade either weapon I replace.

By the way, we only started doing ToV lately after having beaten the first two t1 events. We got spanked by the first dragon a few times, but eventually bypassed it to do the easy ones.

Ishtass
01-21-2013, 12:24 PM
I'm being beaten by wizards, necros, rogues, zerkers, BLs, some rangers, and especially magicians right now (had a mage beat me by 45% on Koi'Doken with all discs used).

Wizards, necros, rogues, and zerkers should beat us in pure dps. Mages should be pretty close, and rangers/BLs should be just behind us. From what I understand.

Gorkeyah
01-21-2013, 12:25 PM
I'd really like to hear whats going on with changes planned for monks too. Also - anyone tried breeding grounds? I was actually 'pulling' there, and getting massive amounts of resists to my mezz, and 'unaffected' for the lull. So even our 'pulling' ability is plummeting. That, and FD potions, slaughtered on burn dps by to rog/zerks (and even BLs at times)....its a real bad time for monks ;(

If those immunities affect other classes (e.g. enchanters), it would at least screw up their pulling more than ours since we could still FD pull. (silver lining? heh)

Gorkeyah
01-21-2013, 12:27 PM
If it weren't for bad dps, I'd have no dps at all... gloom... despair and agony on me.. :P

Aggememnon
01-21-2013, 01:15 PM
About the pulling - I did moving mountains a couple times then stopped. I'm talking specifically about mouse rooms. You use MM in there and the mob will get wedged in the celling (my experience) where he can beat on you, and you can do sweet all about it. I guess you *could* MM every mob in the room and plant it in the celing, and leeave behind the one you actually want. Lol. Maybe thats the new way ...

About chanters - iirc our mezz works off physical resists, and we had this problem a few expansions ago. I doubt (and have not witness personally) chanters having any problems pulling anything.

About buying weapons with raid coin. Thats not really very fair. Why should monk weapons (when our dps is needing help) have the rarest weapons to such an extent they have to spend raid coing to get them, meanwhile everyone else buys armor. And while in t1 its possible, in t2 if its anything like VoA t4, will be a nightmare, requiring some serious choices (eg BP was 500 or weapon).

About dps - beastlords do very nice sustained (better than monk I believe, but I don't grp with those ugly bastards), and certainly can beat monk on burst. Have a couple instances of that already. Rangers I cannot comment on. They have beaten me in the past, but not in the last 2-3 weeks. Not that I got any weapon upgrades either though, so they must be slacking. Mages? Well OP'ed now. Even had a low end raid friend's alt mag send me a tell laughing at exactly what he could do (pwn'ing Xorbb named solo). And they can and do out dps monks...

For the RoF h2h, I would take one for offhand and then wait for t2 weapons...

tanecho
01-21-2013, 01:59 PM
Wizards, necros, rogues, and zerkers should beat us in pure dps. Mages should be pretty close, and rangers/BLs should be just behind us. From what I understand.

I believed this at one time about the classes that should beat us, due to our superior defenses. I don't anymore, and Elidroth said DPS should be interchangable. We are not. We do not have such superior defenses anymore. Aaryonar AE rampage destroys me on the times I have to run in to reapply synergy or hit stunning kick, since we can't do those from max melee. I know he killed me with it once, and purpled me 3 times during 1 engagement. We also used to have a role as a puller, but pulling has been eliminated from all but a few situations, and we aren't the best at it anyway.

[Fri Jan 18 18:34:14 2013] Aaryonar claws YOU for 9318 points of damage. (Wild Rampage)
[Fri Jan 18 18:34:14 2013] Aaryonar claws YOU for 9318 points of damage. (Wild Rampage)
[Fri Jan 18 18:34:14 2013] Aaryonar claws YOU for 14553 points of damage. (Wild Rampage)
[Fri Jan 18 18:34:14 2013] Aaryonar claws YOU for 9318 points of damage. (Wild Rampage)
[Fri Jan 18 18:34:14 2013] Aaryonar claws YOU for 37273 points of damage. (Wild Rampage)

(that one may be a double because I see 5 hits, but it all has the same timestamp)

[Fri Jan 18 18:38:36 2013] Aaryonar claws YOU for 9318 points of damage. (Wild Rampage)
[Fri Jan 18 18:38:36 2013] Aaryonar claws YOU for 37273 points of damage. (Wild Rampage)
[Fri Jan 18 18:38:36 2013] Aaryonar claws YOU for 3638 points of damage. (Wild Rampage)
[Fri Jan 18 18:38:36 2013] Aaryonar claws YOU for 37273 points of damage. (Wild Rampage)


[Fri Jan 18 18:39:35 2013] Aaryonar claws YOU for 37273 points of damage. (Wild Rampage)
[Fri Jan 18 18:39:35 2013] Aaryonar claws YOU for 9318 points of damage. (Wild Rampage)
[Fri Jan 18 18:39:35 2013] Aaryonar claws YOU for 34433 points of damage. (Wild Rampage)


I realize I'm a raving lunatic about this, but our class's lack of purpose on raids is infuriating. Even enchanters who get marginalized often are the best at something on some raids, and they have important buffs. Even if other classes should beat us, they shouldn't by as much as they do, and not in both sustained AND burst.

Oh, and I want the BP because I run cultural, but want the impenetrable focus. I'm currently wearing VoA T3 with no emblem, since it would only be like 4 AC / 60 HP. BP would be I believe a 600HP upgrade, with better heroics/AC.

Ishtass
01-21-2013, 03:07 PM
I completely agree. I know devs want dps to be interchangable, and to an extent they are, but I don't think it's meant to be 1:1. I'm not saying we are at where we should be (and even other classes have agreed with us on that). Good luck ever finding a raiding guild with monk class recruiting open, even if they have no monks.

tanecho
01-21-2013, 03:16 PM
Mine has 2. Recruiting closed.

Aggememnon
01-22-2013, 08:26 AM
About the wild rampage from (lots of the) dragons. Finding 'max range' is incredibly hard, and staying there just as bad. On these fights I just don't risk going in for synergy most of the time. Its the same for all melee really - rogs won't go for backstab either, so this is not monk specific ...

Elidroth I'm sure said he was going to reduce it, as it was excessive. Not sure how long that will take of course.

Basically all the dragons are a caster fest. Only a couple are tank and spank with no danger. Casters pretty much win on all of them anyway, with never taking rampage, and having massive sustained dps, no real need to manage aggro, and if they do happen to die, very little consequence from 'rezz effects', and in many cases massive mana regen. Its like in Starship Troopers - they do the flying, we do the dying ... fair deal ;/

tanecho
01-22-2013, 09:22 AM
I figured backstab was like flying kick, and actually worked off of melee range. I believe we can flying kick at max range, just can't use stunning or synergy because they are coded as spells. If that actually affects rogues too I guess that's more a complaint I have about melee in general instead of just our class.

I hope they realize the massive paradigm shift and use T3 to swing things toward melee (especially monks) ... not all the way to where they were, casters were justified in some complaint (especially wizards).

Gorkeyah
01-22-2013, 02:15 PM
fwiw, my guild beat the tov entry dragon and the ew raid last night for the first time. A h2h dropped in shards raid so that's two so far for rof h2h. I wasn't on for this and the only monk on was on the bench so we didn't contribute much. heh

Nedrom
01-22-2013, 03:34 PM
I realize I'm a raving lunatic about this, but our class's lack of purpose on raids is infuriating.

You're not a lunatic.

This is one of the reasons why I have not returned to raid. I've actually been quite happy just grouping with a few friends now and then.

My enjoyment of raiding pretty much died out a few years ago when I left Club Fu when I had a purpose on raids and we didn't have all these BS wack a mole abilities.

You may ask why I even bother, well the social aspect is a huge part of it and I really enjoy the game otherwise. Raiding is just not fun anymore for a monk, at all. Those of you who say you enjoy raiding, really? I don't believe it. I think you're just putting up with it hoping for another dangling carrot.

Gorkeyah
01-22-2013, 04:26 PM
I like raiding because I like killing stuff that's more 'epic'. I don't have to be the top dps, but if I wasn't showing up in the top 10, or doing well against other monks, etc. it would be extreme enough of a problem to bother me. I also like getting raid loot of course. heh

Ishtass
01-22-2013, 05:51 PM
It's a matter of 1) being able to find a guild willing to take a monk and 2) not getting benched because other classes are more useful. Having a monk slot is more of a hindrance than a help when there are other classes available. As others have said, pulling is dead and other classes can out pull us in certain situations, we are just dps. Our survivability is slightly higher in certain situations or not at all. Other classes have gained a lot of what used to be unique to us. In the raid game, we're lacking. Devs can say all they want about what we can do, but the top raiding guilds know, and the monks in those guilds are there because they were for a long time/friends/need to fill slots, and not because we're that good.

Vothsisx
01-22-2013, 07:03 PM
It's a matter of 1) being able to find a guild willing to take a monk and 2) not getting benched because other classes are more useful. Having a monk slot is more of a hindrance than a help when there are other classes available. As others have said, pulling is dead and other classes can out pull us in certain situations, we are just dps. Our survivability is slightly higher in certain situations or not at all. Other classes have gained a lot of what used to be unique to us. In the raid game, we're lacking. Devs can say all they want about what we can do, but the top raiding guilds know, and the monks in those guilds are there because they were for a long time/friends/need to fill slots, and not because we're that good.

Or because we have tenure as leaders or officers.

/gangsign

Aggememnon
01-23-2013, 09:01 AM
/gangsign

Lol ;)
I'm lucky I guess. Our bench begins when raid is full, and rarely people get swapped for optimization of the force. But if I was raid lead in a high end guild, monks would probably be the first cut to get dps...

Nedrom
01-23-2013, 10:20 AM
When I came back this past summer I was asked to join a guild as someone's alt rogue instead of a monk. That says a lot.

Maereax
01-23-2013, 12:21 PM
When I came back this past summer I was asked to join a guild as someone's alt rogue instead of a monk. That says a lot.

Yeahhh. But does it say a lot about the position of your class... or how much people (don't) like you?

<3

Rasputyn
01-23-2013, 09:41 PM
Monks need some help, but eh. Mages, beasts and wizards all needed some boosts and they got them. We'll have to see how things look for us after new AA and such.

The raids this expansion are also pretty unfriendly to us, with multiple events that people ranged or whatever just to get wins on.

Nedrom
01-24-2013, 01:11 AM
Yeahhh. But does it say a lot about the position of your class... or how much people (don't) like you?

<3

<3

Gorkeyah
01-30-2013, 11:43 AM
Monks need some help, but eh. Mages, beasts and wizards all needed some boosts and they got them. We'll have to see how things look for us after new AA and such.

The raids this expansion are also pretty unfriendly to us, with multiple events that people ranged or whatever just to get wins on.

Interesting Kael raid last night. On the first dain I ended up tanking after we lost a tank or two on incomming. Agro is tricky even for tanks with the DS offhand melee thing going on, and certainly for me tanking, but it wasn't too bad. I spent vet armor, and impenetrable, the low hp heal thing, and mend of course. I lasted pretty long before a new tank grabbed agro.

During the phase where you have both the dain and dragon to deal with, everyone burns the dragon. It was about 110s fight. I was in the top 10 with 50k something dps (maybe 5th or so). A mage had 90k somehow. heh A beast said he was at 70-72k, but he showed up different on my parse. There was a wizard ahead of me that I recall.

So what's my point? That I agree that mage/beasts got a boost. That we can probably tank better than some pure melee, but really it was some discs and a vet reward that made me 'look good'. And that since way back in VoA, my burst dps seems to be about the same, though we did get a boost for longer fights.

A little better synergy, a little better stunning kick, slightly better weapons (t1 rof)... tiny things that hardly do anything to our infusion/speed burn. It seems the palm disc is now up to the level of our infusion/speed burn, but that's not a burst increase since it doesn't exceed it dramatically.

What are other monks doing now for dps, and compared to VoA on a burst? I know some were getting 70ish in VoA, though I never managed that. (I think I've hit 60's, but usually end up lower by the end of the fight.) I can see that my non-disc dps has gone up, and sustained is better with the new eye disc and improved palm, but within the variability of burn fights, I'm not seeing much difference in peak numbers. heh

fyi, I'm down to buying int/wis/chr stat increases for AA's, I have both t1 h2h weapons, with 10dmg augs in each. My synergy and eagle are rk3's, with the other discs being rk2. I have voa t4 visibles, except for some voa TS gloves that give me additional cleave.

P.S. I came to the recent realization that you shouldn't start the heel disc while FK is down because you still have to wait through that normal length timer before you get the shorter heel running timer on the next FK, which therefore wastes some of the disc running time. :)

tanecho
01-30-2013, 07:39 PM
Wish list updates:

Restore our higher damage tables

They either need to increase duration on synergy to 6 ticks (which would increase sustained, not burst), or lower its bonus and roll the whatever they reduce into base flying kick (which would penalize us less when we have to move target to target, and also less when another monk wasn't there or you can't get perfect cooperation to keep timers synced).

Increase flying kick scaling off boot AC to be at least 5 dmg per AC if not more (all other kicks as well).

Infusion, raise it to be within 50% of rogues, for serious. They can still have all the extra shit we don't, and have it be 50% higher damage boost, I'm okay with that, but they're at what, 210% damage boost now and they have a much better disc to pair it with while we sit at 85%? http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=37154&source=Live

Current drunken monkey bonuses on Zan Fi for kicks and strikes

New drunken monkey, endurance drain (say 1000-1200 a cast) but tangible benefit over zan fi (+200 hand to hand, 1k on kicks) and it just stays on flying kick the entire duration instead of rotating through buffs and taking up 2 short buff slots

Remove cloud of fists, replace with X-step pattern line, adjust x-step to be roughly the same damage as the pets were with bard aura up

Massive strike equivalent for flying kick

Some improvement to speed focus, not more HH but something else with it, 100% accuracy mod maybe (would increase damage about 10-15% in raid situations, 25% or more in non-raid)

I would say passive eagle's balance strike at 40% effectiveness, but I fear its interaction with fists of steel proc

rapitiss
01-30-2013, 09:35 PM
My wish list for the devs.

For every encounter that has lets kill all the melee in close with AE rampage, damage aura's, etc. They put in one that is 90% resistant to spells and ranged attacks.

Really really tired of the 'this is a ranged fight' - great I'll spam everything for ~ 500dps.

Vothsisx
01-30-2013, 09:41 PM
Interesting Kael raid last night. On the first dain I ended up tanking after we lost a tank or two on incomming. Agro is tricky even for tanks with the DS offhand melee thing going on, and certainly for me tanking, but it wasn't too bad. I spent vet armor, and impenetrable, the low hp heal thing, and mend of course. I lasted pretty long before a new tank grabbed agro.


http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=34142&source=Live

Gorkeyah
01-30-2013, 11:52 PM
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=34142&source=Live

Have you used this on the raid and know that it works? We do this on some raid targets so I assumed they would be using it on Dain if it worked.

Gorkeyah
01-30-2013, 11:58 PM
Watched dps a bit tonight. I peak in the 60's typically. Wizards and rogues were breaking 100k for a short time. Beast beats me even before you count his pet, which when I looked for one fight it had done 14kdps. (pet combined with beast we're looking at 70's that I saw)

There's a number of ways they could boost our DPS. It doesn't matter to me that much how they do it.

Vothsisx
01-31-2013, 01:39 AM
Cast that spell on Dain and his damage shield goes bye-bye. It has to be that one though, not any of the others.

Edit: I suppose the level 92 version from VoA works too since it's listed in the stacking page, but I've always told my clerics to cast that.

Aggememnon
01-31-2013, 06:07 AM
On our first few tries our clerics said they could not remove this. Eventually they found a way to do it - I guess its this spell. But make sure you get the right one ;p Forgetting he has a DS, or burning before its removed is a hard lesson learnt. Unless you're a caster of course, in which case you never need to care

Gorkeyah
01-31-2013, 10:29 AM
Thanks, I'll have them give it a try.