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sardonis
12-12-2012, 04:49 PM
With the removal of 18 delay hth weapons, what is really going to be an upgrade?

VOA T3 raid = 100/18

VOA T4 raid = 106/18

ROF T1 raid = 121/20

ROF T2 raid = 118/19

With the lower attack rate of ROF weapons, will the damage lost due to Fists of Steel mean that the weapons are not actually an upgrade.

Nedrom
12-12-2012, 05:05 PM
100/18 = 5.55
106/18 = 5.88
121/20 = 6.05
118/19 = 6.21

Both are both decent upgrades, regardless of HH or not..., plus 1 dly = approx 5 dmg

Delay rounding is no longer an issue since it was fixed quite a few years back.

Plus remember, T3 content may be in the works.

sardonis
12-12-2012, 09:11 PM
I was thinking of the straight damage added by fists of steel. No clue what it is at level 9, but if a weapon is swinging less, that damage isn't applied.

Not sure if it is enough damage to move away from just looking at ratio though.

Gorkeyah
12-13-2012, 01:18 AM
Somebody redo ratios assuming a 10dmg aug in each weapon since you get more out of the aug the faster the weapon. heh

Mris
12-13-2012, 02:25 AM
100/18 = 5.55
106/18 = 5.88
121/20 = 6.05
118/19 = 6.21

Both are both decent upgrades, regardless of HH or not..., plus 1 dly = approx 5 dmg

This 5-to-1 statistic is kinda dated. By your own numbers, 1 delay should be around 6 damage by pure ratio, at the raid level. That's without damage augs, apparently. THEN you figure in the damage bonus, heroic str, cleave+damage, and FoS, and it makes it higher. THEN you figure in buffs like ZF and 2nd Spire, which aren't there all the time. (I believe that FoS ref in the initial post was the +damage, not the HH.) So, I think your number needs some review.

Actually, it would be nice if we could figure out an average real damage per weapon damage, thus giving us a guide to how +damage might figure into ratio. (FoS being the big one, of course.) Obviously, it's not going to be a solid number. But what is, really? This is EQ, we're at the mercy of the RNG. (And the weapon-to-real ratio changes with level, and crit%.)

So... Yeah. I might take this project up, if nobody else does. But you might be waiting a long time for me to get that motivated. So if you want results sooner... *waits for volunteers* Should be as simple as parsing a single weapon (non-weapon offhand) with no damage aug, and comparing the average damage per hit difference, divided by the amount of the damage on the aug. Then find the damage added by FoS max, compared to none, and divide it by that number, for the weapon-damage-equivalent of FoS. (Note that the average real damage per weapon damage should vary with your cleave and other crit mods, but not change with double/triple/flurry.) This could also give us numbers for other +damage bonuses, if anyone would care to use them. (So you could, if you wanted, easily figure damage bonus, HStr, and other things listed in paragraph 1 into your ratio when comparing weapons.

Would others be interested in these results, and find a weapon-damage-equivalent number for FoS useful?

tanecho
12-13-2012, 09:12 AM
I found my non disc, non zan fi average hit to be around 9 * weapon damage + 405. Still conducting tests to find out more.

So when considering ratio, for me it would be (9*weapon damage+405)/weapon delay. So I get a damage factor so to speak of 80.5 for the 106/18 vs. 79.2 for the 121/20, assuming a 10 damage aug in each. The 118/19 is 81.95, so it's a real upgrade.

The real rub in all of this, is that tests have to be conducted via a matrix with a LOT of variables. I had to use 3 weapons running their own parses just to arrive at the 405 figure, and that figure will differ for everyone. Under discs, the number is going to vary as well because some sources of damage will scale with the discs and others will not.

Damage bonus on weapon + heroic strength + cleave + fists of steel + zan fi / drunken monkey + second spire + eye of the storm

Does anyone see a flat damage boost I missed? Not talking about % mods, which is another wrench in the works.

Aggememnon
12-13-2012, 10:29 AM
Thats really cool work tanecho!
There are a couple of other things I thought of. Obvious one is multiple cleave effects (cultural), which I believe is still working.
The other is some illusions such as war mask (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=60940) which add +10.
This all sounds like an excel spreadsheet waiting to happen, where people can plug in their own values and calculate weapons upgrades. Or even an android app. "I'd buy that for a dollar!".

Ascher
12-13-2012, 03:13 PM
Thats really cool work tanecho!
There are a couple of other things I thought of. Obvious one is multiple cleave effects (cultural), which I believe is still working.
The other is some illusions such as war mask (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=60940) which add +10.
This all sounds like an excel spreadsheet waiting to happen, where people can plug in their own values and calculate weapons upgrades. Or even an android app. "I'd buy that for a dollar!".

Point me to the app! Best dollar spent :P

Ascher

Gorkeyah
12-13-2012, 03:36 PM
100/18 = 5.55 -
106/18 = 5.88 +.33
121/20 = 6.05 +.50
118/19 = 6.21 +.66

+10aug
110/18 = 6.11 -
116/18 = 6.44 +.33
131/20 = 6.55 +.44
128/19 = 6.74 +.63

Ishtass
12-13-2012, 05:11 PM
100/18 = 5.55 -
106/18 = 5.88 +.33
121/20 = 6.05 +.50
118/19 = 6.21 +.66

+10aug
110/18 = 6.11 -
116/18 = 6.44 +.33
131/20 = 6.55 +.44
128/19 = 6.74 +.63

a nice starting point, but as stated above, there are many other factors that can make these numbers not come out comparable.

Gorkeyah
12-13-2012, 07:08 PM
I was just posting the ratios with aug for comparison since that's how we use them. You can see how the 20dly weapon doesn't hold up as well with aug as it does without.

tanecho
12-13-2012, 08:24 PM
Under terrorpalm+zan fi (Disc situation)

24.889*weapon damage + 491

110 dmg 18 dly 179.9876543 damage factor
116 dmg 18 dly 188.3172840 damage factor
131 dmg 20 dly 188.2272222 damage factor
128 dmg 19 dly 194.1883041 damage factor

So essentially, what we're going to see is unless you have a big +% damage boost, the fast weapons will tend to win for an extra tier. With something that boosts flat damage by a large amount (eye of the storm, I'm looking at you) it's going to make the fast weapons even more desirable.

To optimize damage, you would need to swap in your best ratio weapon during terrorpalm, and the fast weapons for the rest of the time. If someone wants to go into it deeper, you might find more insight than I did. Also keep in mind that lots of factors will change this. I suspect high attack situations will favor the better ratios more, as they push the damage intervals higher, and most of our bonuses are flat damage.

tanecho
12-13-2012, 09:31 PM
Eye of the storm + zan fi:

11.8667 * dmg + 781

110 dmg 18 dly 115.9074074 damage factor
116 dmg 18 dly 119.8629630 damage factor
131 dmg 20 dly 116.7766667 damage factor
128 dmg 19 dly 121.0491228 damage factor

Rten
12-17-2012, 09:38 AM
My parses on delay http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=37567 say pretty much exactly the same thing... that delay is king the more effects you have that benefit per hit the more pronounced it becomes. I also did a few parses that showed the pragmatic difference to swapping your weapons was surprisingly minimal. I want to say swapping 20 delay to primary and 18 to secondary netted < a 40dps change for me. Basically saying that there is less and less difference between priamary and secondary (is my interpretation).

I think that our new aa (and damage table for 100) are going to further solidify the benefit of delay. I am guestimating (total guess) that my delay benefit being all cleave/cultural again this expansion (for now) is going to come in close to 10 damage per delay as the magic number for primary. Once I get a new 19 delay I will do the actual primary only parses... unless you all think that parsing both makes more pragmatic sense. My prediction is that upgrading one ROF T2 weapon to replace spikeshell will be a no brainer, but that the benefit to upgrade the 2nd will be painfully trivial. I will of course be VERY happy to be wrong on this one.