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Aggememnon
12-12-2012, 08:00 AM
(EDIT: Modified based on other suggestions below - I guess we won't have time to poll to get a top 10 list of priorities?)

I've just been looking at the IRC chat logs from the previous sessions (10th War.Pal, 11th SK, Rng). Monk is on 17th Dec, with Rogues. I'm surprised at some of the things that have gotten the nod, and by the sheer number of them. Mostly they are hastened AAs, or new ranks to existing or old lines. For those attending, its well worth having a read to see Eli's thoughts on some of the points raised, and would be valuable to have a good idea on what to ask for, and what is a waste of time. Those IRC logs are here:

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/index.php?threads/war-pal-irc-chats-10-12.2222/
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/index.php?threads/sk-rng-irc-chats-11-12.2251/

I'd love to attend, but I have almost 0 chance ;/ I hope someone can go, and speak for us. It may be a good idea to make some notes here on specific AAs that we could request.


(Possible) bugs:
--------------------
Bug: third spire not moving from Major 1 to Major 2 effect (Eli not touching spires, but maybe a bug fix is fine)
Possible bug? Five point palm-> massive aggro

Utility/role considerations:
--------------------------------
Utility: we have none. Therefore our melee dps should be more comparable to rog/zerk than it is currently. We need some massive boosts somewhere...
Soloability: I think we are probably the weakest class for this, which is sad given that monks were always considered the best of the pure melee soloers. Rogs/zerks (esp zerks) make massive AA/XP with decapitate. We will not get anything like that. I'm not sure what AA could help.

disc reuse:
--------------------
Hastened AAs to bring our timers, especially for best discs, down to 10 mins as for rog/zerk. (example NToV dragons - little downtime and zerk/rog can use best disc)
Hastened AA for Ironfist (to 15 mins), as 30 mins is ridiculous.

Tanking:
----------
Q. Are we supposed to be able to tank?
Tanking: We are out-tanked by pets and mercs. If the intent is for us to tank, we need more AAs and/or new mnk AAs. We would also need *activatable* AA that help us get aggro. (Rogues have something they can cast on someone to increase their hate generated).
Not-tanking: we catch aggro too easily compared to rog/zerk who will be doing up to double our dps. Rog have abilities (disc and AA) that they can fire before dpsing to reduce their hate. We could request these so when we *don't* want to tank, we trigger them first.

Modifications to existing AA:
------------------------------------
Fists of Fury: Someone suggested 100% on 15 hh effect for monks. I think thats a great idea. Won't help burn on raid etc, but will boost our sustained significantly. If we can't be comparable burn with zerk/rog, we should be best sustained.

Cloud of fists options OR *let it die* and add the damage direct to monk dps
Cloud of fists: new ranks of cloud of fists so they are not green
Cloud of fists: hastened
Cloud of fists: extended

Drunken monkey options OR *let it die* and add a FK mod to Zan fi
DMS: new ranks
DMS: boosted effect

Punch/Kick Mastery/Heel of Brithrax/Stonefoot: improving the dmg bonuses significantly to boost sustained

X-Step Pattern : Move it to the Cloud of Fist timer

Eye of the Storm --move short term buff like DM. [ 1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 40%; 2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 160%; 3: Unknown #418 (100/312/0); 4: Increase Flying Kick Damage by 600

2nd spire improvements: I think Eli will not touch, but could ask

Imitate death: Hastened to 30 secs in line with SK (which was promised I believe a year ago?)

Echo line: remove out of combat restriction - rogs can mezz with traps and in combat, rangers etc have fluster/bluster for cc. Chanters won't care as they are too busy soloing all levels of content...

destructive force: hastening down to 3 mins, making usable with 2 discs (stacked with shm epic).
destructive force: extended

burst of power - new ranks mnk only

terrorpalm/speed focus: extended

infusion of thunder - new extended and hastened

Purify - reduce reuse timer (down to 1 min)

New AA:
----------
Passive AA: that boosts accuracy "Precision of the sensei"- Should be easier to put a fist accurately then a sword especially since monks are "masters of their own body".
Passive AA: version of Tiger's Balance (Lower fire rate, *maybe*, lower damage, certainly, but a passive AA that gives us a chance to fire off a (relatively) high-damage strike. NOT related to ToMW or regular Flying Kicks.)

Activated AA (stance): tanking AA permanent buff % hp mod, +aggro, +mitigation. With -damage penalty for the duration OR aggro mod to 2nb
Activated AA (stance): non-tanking AA permanent buff, -aggro,

Ughbash
12-12-2012, 09:39 AM
Another option for Cloud of Fists would be an AA that extends it, and another AA that hastens it.

Third Spire (not sure how many people use it). On lucy it has minor rank 1, minor rank 2, minor rank 3, major rank 1, major rank 2, major rank 3 or something similar (Lucy and EQ both blocked from work). Basically minor triggers when it is on and goes to minor 2, that triggers when hit adn goes to minor 3, that triggrs when hit goes to Major 1.. Then a bug happens and when Major 1 is triggeres it repears Major 1 rather then going to Major 2.

Passive AA that boosts accuracy "Precision of the sensei" Should be easier to put a fist accurately then a sword especially since monks are "masters of their own body".

Hastened Purify Body Hey we can dream.

I prefer Extended Speed Focus to hastened, extended makes it work longer on a burn, hastened lets it come up sooner, but we often have long enough time between events that this is not a problem.

Aggememnon
12-12-2012, 10:57 AM
I prefer Extended Speed Focus to hastened, extended makes it work longer on a burn, hastened lets it come up sooner, but we often have long enough time between events that this is not a problem.

I would like both, but greatly prefer hastened down to 10 mins. Case in point being NToV dragons, where rog/zerk can burn every dragon, while I burn every *other* dragon. There is very little down time between the dragons...

Ishtass
12-12-2012, 11:13 AM
Soloability: I think we are probably the weakest class for this
If you feel this way you're doing it wrong. I soloed a lot of VoA when it was brand new. And my gear was outdated. Being able to solo lots of low enemies quickly is not the same as being able to take down stronger targets solo. I wouldn't mind a headshot type ability, but it's not a big deal for anyone.


Cloud of fists: new ranks of cloud of fists so they are not green
Better option, let this die. Replace with something useful.


Imitate death: Hastened to 30 secs in line with SK
Definitely agree.


Hastened Purify Body Hey we can dream.
Definitely should be brought down a little more.


Other comments I didn't care enough to comment on. Some things would help DPS and I'd take it. But when talking about our role, saying we have no utility is not the same as saying we should be equal to rog/zerks. We can tank a lot better than them. You will also piss off a bunch of monks by making arguments for or against making us into real tanks by giving us abilities to hold aggro. The whole idea is we aren't one or the other, we're in between for both tanking and dps, and more important, the type of dps (sustained) and the type of tanking (survivability, not holding aggro for the group)

Aggememnon
12-12-2012, 11:54 AM
If you feel this way you're doing it wrong. I soloed a lot of VoA when it was brand new. And my gear was outdated. Being able to solo lots of low enemies quickly is not the same as being able to take down stronger targets solo. I wouldn't mind a headshot type ability, but it's not a big deal for anyone.

Trust me, I am not doing it wrong. Soloability for me is the ability to solo/molo for reasonable amount of XP in a lesson burn. I'm talking specifically about our soloability in comparison to other classes. Taking that definition, here are some numbers:

Monk solo XP around 10% at 100% XP (in a hotzone)
Zerk (decap) around 30% XP (hotzone)
Rogue (assasinate) around 17% XP (non-hotzone)
SK around 30%+ XP (hotzone)
Cleric (around 100AA per lesson)
Ranger (around 100AA per lesson) (double in hotzone)
I am not sure of AA to real XP conversion rate, but you get the picture. Where are the numbers on which you think we are good solo class compared to others?




....saying we have no utility is not the same as saying we should be equal to rog/zerks. We can tank a lot better than them.

What utility do we have exactly? We tank better than them only in the sense that we avoid/mitigate better. But that does not make us tanks. We are like 2 sheets of tissue paper, rather than 1. But its still tissue paper, and not enough to be reliable tanks. Thats my point. Pulling is no longer utility. Whats left? Only dps, and given we have no utility, I say we should be on closer to them on burns, or maybe exceed them on sustained. Zerks sure don't have any utility bar ADPS warcry (which is decent!), but rogues can slow and pull, with in combat mezz, escape/retreat, and some 'tanking' disciplines. Zerks can fade too (but its probably the worst of the farmed out abilities).



You will also piss off a bunch of monks by making arguments for or against making us into real tanks by giving us abilities to hold aggro.

I'm trying not to make arguements for or against. Right now we are neither. If we are meant to be tanks, give us some tanking ability (hold aggro/mitigate). If not give us dps. We just can't stay in between these 2 extremes. We need some help in both departments. Right now a monk is pointless.



The whole idea is we aren't one or the other, we're in between for both tanking and dps, and more important, the type of dps (sustained) and the type of tanking (survivability, not holding aggro for the group)

This is where you are quite wrong. This is one of those clear cases where if you are between the two (tanking/dps), then you are neither, not both. We are not tanks, and we are only mediocre dps. All classes have now got greater survivability, mostly thru fade. Its not utility, its not a role. Out dps is surpassed by hybrids - rangers burn for 2 mins (?) with called shots/hail, beastlords do great sustained. Even Paladins are pretty awesome on burns. Our tanking is exceeded by t4 mercs - why the heck would anyone take a monk instead? I see mage pets perform better.

Ishtass
12-12-2012, 03:05 PM
Trust me, I am not doing it wrong. Soloability for me is the ability to solo/molo for reasonable amount of XP in a lesson burn. I'm talking specifically about our soloability in comparison to other classes.
Soloability to me is the ability to kill something that someone else cannot kill. Who cares about the AA rates solo, when you're maxed it's no longer a point at all. We can solo tough named pretty well, not the best, but better than most. You compare us to a handful of other classes that have faster rates for killing light blues, while saying we're the worst. I guess those other classes you didn't list are too uber to mention.


What utility do we have exactly? We tank better than them only in the sense that we avoid/mitigate better. But that does not make us tanks. We are like 2 sheets of tissue paper, rather than 1. But its still tissue paper, and not enough to be reliable tanks. Thats my point. Pulling is no longer utility. Whats left? Only dps, and given we have no utility, I say we should be on closer to them on burns, or maybe exceed them on sustained. Zerks sure don't have any utility bar ADPS warcry (which is decent!), but rogues can slow and pull, with in combat mezz, escape/retreat, and some 'tanking' disciplines. Zerks can fade too (but its probably the worst of the farmed out abilities).

I'm trying not to make arguements for or against. Right now we are neither. If we are meant to be tanks, give us some tanking ability (hold aggro/mitigate). If not give us dps. We just can't stay in between these 2 extremes. We need some help in both departments. Right now a monk is pointless.
There is more than the raid game. I agree that in the raid game we are lacking. Everyone knows this. But outside of it, extra layer of tissue paper is quite noticeable. I didn't say we had utility, I said that utility is not the only factor besides DPS. A great raid monk can make those small benefits work in their favor. I have many cases in the past where I helped pull a win because of them. Saying it has to be black or white or it doesn't count is asinine. You're getting greedy, but hey, if you can swing the dev's opinion into giving us more I won't argue.


This is where you are quite wrong. This is one of those clear cases where if you are between the two (tanking/dps), then you are neither, not both. We are not tanks, and we are only mediocre dps. All classes have now got greater survivability, mostly thru fade. Its not utility, its not a role. Out dps is surpassed by hybrids - rangers burn for 2 mins (?) with called shots/hail, beastlords do great sustained. Even Paladins are pretty awesome on burns. Our tanking is exceeded by t4 mercs - why the heck would anyone take a monk instead? I see mage pets perform better.
You either didn't read my post, or you have no idea what it means. I don't have the time to correct the amount wrong with this paragraph at the moment.

Taken
12-12-2012, 03:27 PM
There are some points that I took away from the previous chats.

--Headshot (and abilities like it) are not going to be continued. Do not ask for this, do not hint at anything similar. Elidroth has made it clear it's not happening.

--Do not compare us to other classes. Elidroth wont take your request/comments seriously if you are doing it by comparison purposes.

--Elidroth seems to be open this go around if you can more clearly define your class. Stating we can't tank, so dps should be higher wont fly with him.

I agree with many of the comments above. The original list of aa/discs posted by Agg to be updated is a good start.

My personal preference and where I think we need to head with our class is in to the sustained DPS department with slight increases to some of our current combat abilities in reuse timers.

Bixxby82
12-12-2012, 04:14 PM
I read in a recent thread that Punch Mastery was going to get looked at.
Something about making it only affect H2H dmg rather than specials.
I think that that'd help a ton as far as our sustained deeps is concerned (especially if they left the number of ranks and just "fixed" it).


While I like the idea of getting some of those discs hastened, I think they should just fix the damn things and MAKE them 10min discs, baseline.

Also, I LOVE the idea of a 100% FoS at max rank.
Uber sauce.

Recently, i'd been wondering (to myself) about the possibility of them just improving the dmg bonuses of Kick Mastery/Heel of Brithrax/Stonefoot.
Wouldn't some up'd damage in those AA lines help our sustained dmg as well?
I mean, i'm sure they'd have to up the numbers significantly, but it's an option and that stuff's passive /shrug.

I only had 2 cp.
I'm outta money now~

Vothsisx
12-12-2012, 06:16 PM
X-Step Pattern -- Move it to the Cloud of Fist timer
Hastened Purify -- Reduce it to 1 minute
Punch Mastery / Kick Mastery, +Special AA in general -- I like what's been said about Punch Mastery. The Flying Kick AAs need a large boost.
Hastened Imitate Death - 30 seconds
Hastened Speed Focus / Terror Palm - We're supposed to be getting a reduction to Speed Focus anyway. Let's have Terror Palm match it.
Hastened Iron Fist -- Bring this down to 15 minutes.
Eye of the Storm -- I'd love if this disc replaced Drunken Monkey. Meaning, click it once per minute and it provides a short term buff like DM.

Example (Stealing from Lucy):
Eye of the Storm Rk. III
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 40%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 160%
3: Unknown #418 (100/312/0)
4: Increase Flying Kick Damage by 600

1 minute duration

Aggememnon
12-12-2012, 06:25 PM
Soloability to me is the ability to kill something that someone else cannot kill.
Lol! What can we kill that noone else can?


Who cares about the AA rates solo, when you're maxed it's no longer a point at all.
Its about equality between classes. So I care.


We can solo tough named pretty well, not the best, but better than most.
What tough named can we solo? I'd really like to hear what you think is tough. What do you solo at the moment? You can't believe we are so much better at soloing single mobs than zer/rog that we should have such a massive dps disparity in raid can you? And when its mass killing light blues, both those classes do it better...


You compare us to a handful of other classes that have faster rates for killing light blues, while saying we're the worst.
I'd say we are yes. Especially considering we are the most 'self-sufficient' of the pure melee classes

I guess those other classes you didn't list are too uber to mention.
Don't have values for all classes off the top of my head, but I guess you have even less idea than me..


There is more than the raid game. I agree that in the raid game we are lacking. Everyone knows this. But outside of it, extra layer of tissue paper is quite noticeable.
Well we agree we lack in the raid game. Thats something ;p
In group game, unless you box alts you will kill slower than pretty much every class. Open your eyes and look around you. Go try kill a red con in t2 RoF.


I didn't say we had utility, I said that utility is not the only factor besides DPS.
So we don't have utility, and parses show we are not competitive dps with zerks/rog. What more do you want?

A great raid monk can make those small benefits work in their favor. I have many cases in the past where I helped pull a win because of them. Saying it has to be black or white or it doesn't count is asinine.
I assume you, as a great raid monk, can give me an astonishing example of the kind of amazing miracle you performed to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat? Go ahead and dazzle your audience...


You're getting greedy, but hey, if you can swing the dev's opinion into giving us more I won't argue.
You won't argue? Well, for someone who does not have much time to reply, you seem to argue pretty well with 'opinions' providing not a single example of anything.


You either didn't read my post, or you have no idea what it means. I don't have the time to correct the amount wrong with this paragraph at the moment.
Yeah I read it. Just thought it was bollcoks is all....

Ishtass
12-12-2012, 06:43 PM
Like religion and politics, no point in arguing with an idiot.

Nedrom
12-12-2012, 07:57 PM
I assume you, as a great raid monk, can give me an astonishing example of the kind of amazing miracle you performed to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat? Go ahead and dazzle your audience...


I can think of many times where our survivability helped first wins for many guilds I've raided with over the last decade.

The most notable victories were:

Club Fu - First Performer win, I was the last standing, used all my tools to keep alive long enough to outlast the timer. Sure it wasn't a clean win, but a win is a win. Our first Lethar win, also was crazy, only 4 of us left including myself, I was one of only two DPS left alive on the win, taking a DT shortly after he died.

List goes on and on... seriously our UTILITY is SURVIVABILITY!

Trazz
12-12-2012, 08:22 PM
Few times raid mob to 1%.. Guild wipe, I run up and 2HB Whirlwind the mob to a win. Being the only person left standing is a pretty good feeling.

I have a button setup just for the occasion..

Aggememnon
12-12-2012, 08:37 PM
I can think of many times where our survivability helped first wins for many guilds I've raided with over the last decade.

The most notable victories were:

Club Fu - First Performer win, I was the last standing, used all my tools to keep alive long enough to outlast the timer. Sure it wasn't a clean win, but a win is a win. Our first Lethar win, also was crazy, only 4 of us left including myself, I was one of only two DPS left alive on the win, taking a DT shortly after he died.

List goes on and on... seriously our UTILITY is SURVIVABILITY!

Yeah - I'm sure only monks are capable of being the last man standing ... no way any other class could have a story as equally miraculous. Seriously. And I love the examples from 10 years ago....things changed a bit since then. All classes have some degree of survivability. Its not fricking utility though lol

Aggememnon
12-12-2012, 08:57 PM
nm..

Ascher
12-12-2012, 09:38 PM
We certainly dont need a method to lower agro as mentioned in the original post. Either manually key 'atk off, fd, atk on' or make a button to do it macro style. You'll barely lose a single hit at all and you'll go back to zero on the agro list. The reason we pull so much more agro even though our DPS is low is the amount of hits that we put onto a mob compared to other classes. Look at a parse, and see how the rogue did 150 hits, and we did say 300. Thats some serious agro there, even if they did more damage in those fewer hits.

Cheers

Ascher

Nedrom
12-12-2012, 11:50 PM
Any monk asking for 'aggro reduction' tools doesn't play the class or is just simply trolling.

Gorkeyah
12-13-2012, 01:07 AM
Not really a monk issue but where the heck are the new ranks of finishing blow? I'm not used to worrying about mobs running when near death anymore. Heh

When compared to other classes at solo ability, it depends on the situation. A tank with a merc should be one of the best big target classes I would think. A monk is best solo in places you can't use a merc. Some other classes are best at killing particular mobs fast enough to not really need a merc.

Mris
12-13-2012, 01:50 AM
Wow, so much to reply to...

Discs

Note, first of all, that it's an AA chat. So I wouldn't try delving into discs if it isn't being changed by AAs.

Certainly agree that we need timer reductions. We just got one for SF. I would LOVE to see Ironfist/Scaledfist down to 10 minutes. (Which would match Thunderkick from way back when.)

DMS: IMO, just let it die, along with Cloud. We could, however, ask them to add an FK mod to Zan Fi, and still get that part of it. (And if you include that last part, it's AA related.)

Echo-in-Combat - It would be convenient, and there seems to be a decent case for it. Just don't get us nerfed with "not if the mob is in combat". Nobody wins that game. (And this isn't AA related anyway.)

Tanking

I don't personally want to see us go down this road. We aren't big tanks, and we won't get itemized as such. Leave it where it is, and go for the gold. (DPS) That said, if that's what the devs want, we might as well do it right. Maybe start the day with the question, "Are we tanks, or DPS?". And make our requests based on that.

More aggro - See above.
Less aggro - LOL. No.

AAs

I like the idea of having passive HH effect. I see it as unlikely, but can't hurt to try.

Hastened Death, Hastened Purify - As always, these both get my vote.

PASSIVE AA version of Tiger's Balance. Yes, I know, we just got an upgrade in Eagle's Balance, but really, I felt this should be an AA from the start. Lower fire rate, *maybe*, lower damage, certainly, but a passive AA that gives us a chance to fire off a (relatively) high-damage strike. NOT related to ToMW or regular Flying Kicks.

And speaking of Technique of Master Wu, what are we up to with that third strike these days? I know we got new AAs in RoF. Are we at 100% now?

Punch Mastery - It was said it'll be looked into, but can't hurt to remind him.

FPP - Is the aggro on this intended, or will it be [insert 'fixed' or 'nerfed' here, depending on who you are]? I really don't care either way, but I'd like to know if we should get attached to this [insert 'tool' or 'annoyance'].

And in a completely non-AA-related question, why DID we get screwed out of our 18 delay weapons? I don't know if we'd get an answer from this particular chat, but I'd love to know why, and if there's a chance of getting that changed.




Now, to go off the actual topic here... I gotta say, I agree that monks can pull the raid outta the fire. No, our DPS isn't gonna win the raid when someone else isn't. No, we aren't going to tank the end boss forever. But take a good look at our oh-shit abilities. Take a look at just how many of them we have. It's not an outdated idea.

1. Mend, every 30 seconds. If the shit has actually hits the fan, it's not gonna keep us up on its own, but it does help us stay up with minimal healing, and complements our other abilities nicely.
2. Impen - How often do you go down with impen up? Oh, it happens, I'm sure, but this little guy is my go-to for surviving everything. And most of the time, it's all I need for 24 seconds.
3. Staff Block - Knock it if you want, but when you're distracting the raid mob so the raid can recover, your DPS isn't your biggest worry.
4. Purify Body - Not gonna save your ass from melee damage, but nasty AE DoTs or debuffs can end your life just as fast...
5. Forestall Death - You'd be surprised what this can do, though it's best paired with something else.
6. Shaded Step/Veiled Body - Shaded is pretty damned nice, though it doesn't last long. Veiled has its place, but it's usually my last-ditch effort, because it takes up your disc window.
7. The one I never, ever use. I don't even have a hotkey for it. But really, it should be noted... Hold the Line. This things name just screams oh-shit-ability. It won't do jack if you use it solo, but if you're actually getting outside heals, it's still a boost. (And again, DPS doesn't matter at this point.)

Toss all that at a mob, and you definitely have enough time to get a few tanks rezzed/called, and for them to hit Rest, get a cleric buff, and jump in once you go down. YES, MONKS CAN SAVE THE RAID. And before you tell me that anyone can do that, I'd like you to outline how a wizard, necro, or rogue is gonna pull that shit off. (Just the ones who seem least likely to me. If you'd like to give us a blow-by-blow on how every class can out do us saving the raid, I'll certainly read it over.)

Aggememnon
12-13-2012, 06:43 AM
Its blatantly obvious some monks want to tank and some don't. My personal opinion is that I have no interest in tanking. What I don't understand is when people say they don't want to tank, but don't want some passive deaggro ability. When you catch aggro, we all know to FD. But that does cost dps. And have you never got up so fast after FD that you are still on top of aggro list? Rogues have deaggro abilities that are passive (AA/disc), and activated (evade). So they catch aggro less innately, but if they do, they evade. If they do want aggro, they don't preclick the de-aggro stuff. I was just suggesting something like that. And note that does not seem to affect their claim on dps...

Monks could save a raid, but any class can!. We have necro dots that outlive players, pets/pet swarms, a last nuke before a DT, a monk impenetrable/whirlwind, a ranger weaponshield, rogue nimble/lithe etc. I suggest to you its not the *class* that saves the raid, but the smart *player* who knows how to use his tools.

It used to be that when a raid wipes it was usually monks/nec that were left alive. When you get up now, there are a good few more people. Or noone else noticed that?

Yeah monk survivability is good - I never said it wasn't. But other classes have better survivability than they had before, and I do not regard that as utility. From the list below of what you use, mend and impenetrable are the biggest difference .... Rogues have 'tanking in a pinch' abilities too - some of the AA you use are not even exclusive to monks - hold the line, decry/delay death etc.

In the past 5 years all survivability has increased. If you think its utility, then I will never be able to persuade you otherwise I'm sure. I have to say I am surprised though..

Nedrom
12-13-2012, 10:11 AM
Not really a monk issue but where the heck are the new ranks of finishing blow? I'm not used to worrying about mobs running when near death anymore. Heh

When compared to other classes at solo ability, it depends on the situation. A tank with a merc should be one of the best big target classes I would think. A monk is best solo in places you can't use a merc. Some other classes are best at killing particular mobs fast enough to not really need a merc.

Finishing Blow has been discontinued just like headshot, assassinate, decapitate.

Ishtass
12-13-2012, 10:31 AM
Echo-in-Combat - It would be convenient, and there seems to be a decent case for it. Just don't get us nerfed with "not if the mob is in combat". Nobody wins that game. (And this isn't AA related anyway.)

When the ability first went live it behaved this way. I don't remember the reason for changing it, but it was intentionally done so.

Aggememnon
12-13-2012, 10:39 AM
I was in Icefall glacier when they changed this to not be usable in combat. The reasoning given at the time was that it was not intended to be an in camp cc method. I think chanters had complained, and at the time rightfully so. (It was incredibly useful though, since if your grp bit off more than it could chew, monk could just mezz all mobs and the grp could catch its breath). I had a specific button for it at the time, which basically said '12 sec emergency monk mezz incoming - turn attack off'. Or somesuch.

Since then, rogues have a 1 tick in combat mezz. Rangers have in camp cc which is as good as enchanters. The ranger version is still miles better than an in combat monk mezz would be...

This is just icing however. What I want most is parity in dps, or close to it.

Ughbash
12-13-2012, 11:05 AM
Its blatantly obvious some monks want to tank and some don't. My personal opinion is that I have no interest in tanking. What I don't understand is when people say they don't want to tank, but don't want some passive deaggro ability.
You do realize that a passive deaggro abiliity would screw over every monk who wants to tank (which I realize you do not). Perhaps those who have no interest in tanking don't want a passive deaggro ability because it would screw over teh other half of the monks who DO have an interest in tanking.

As for FD and DPS. Yes FD does lower your dps some, but still an occasional FD/stand/attack takes less then a second, lowers aggro a little (somtimes wipes) and takes less then a second. For me FD is hot key 9, Stand is hot key 0 so I just hit 9 0 a (we no longer have to turn attack off before FD).

Aggememnon
12-13-2012, 11:31 AM
You do realize that a passive deaggro abiliity would screw over every monk who wants to tank (which I realize you do not). Perhaps those who have no interest in tanking don't want a passive deaggro ability because it would screw over teh other half of the monks who DO have an interest in tanking.
.
What I meant was you click the de-aggro AA/disc before engage/burn if you do not want to tank. ie Its clickable but the action is then passive (you don't do anything else), so for example it goes into short duration buff box or something. I'm not sure of the mechanics of how the rog ones work. But this would not screw over tanking monks. If you want aggro, you just do not pre-click the deaggro abilities...I understand full well that some monks *want* to tank, and I was trying to think of a solution that did not alienate them. I thought it was a good idea, and based on a currently existing solution /shrug

Ughbash
12-13-2012, 11:45 AM
What I meant was you click the de-aggro AA/disc before engage/burn if you do not want to tank. ie Its clickable but the action is then passive (you don't do anything else), so for example it goes into short duration buff box or something. I'm not sure of the mechanics of how the rog ones work. But this would not screw over tanking monks. If you want aggro, you just do not pre-click the deaggro abilities...I understand full well that some monks *want* to tank, and I was trying to think of a solution that did not alienate them. I thought it was a good idea, and based on a currently existing solution /shrug

I thought by passive you were referring to a Monk equivalent of "Spell Casting Subtelty" an AA that is always on. as I siad I don't have aggro issues on raids, if I did I would just after speed focus hit imitate death stand and attack again (Like I used to). Point is Tanks have SO many abilities to gain aggro now I CAN'T steal aggro from a decent tank. A good Second tank should be able to press one button and have aggro back solidly if the Main Tank goes down.

I sometimes tank with an Alt warrior in an After Hours raid force. Unless he can not attack the mob do to large damage shield (Grounds raid which we do nto do any more) or is fihting under water (Sarith sharks). Aggro is pretty much a guranteed lock. Warriors have TONS of ways to hold aggro.

So I guess what I am saying rather than a Passive aggro debuff for us, it would be politiclaly better to push for stronger aggro for tanks (even if they don't need it). For raids it serves the same purpose and we are helping others rather than holding our hands out for more.

Aggememnon
12-13-2012, 12:04 PM
Ugh - I just reread what I wrote previously, and I guess I did not explain myself sufficiently. Apologies for that.

I'm fine with askign for warriors to get better aggro abilities too, or instead. This idea was from my own experiences and observations in raids. I have hit 75k+ dps on raids, with rogues hitting 110k+, and its me that gets aggro. Even on lesser burns. Overall, I do catch aggro more often than rogues I would say, and I do that FD/ID dance. And I know at the same time that rogues have used their de-aggro abilities prior to engage....

Aggememnon
12-13-2012, 01:09 PM
reworked top post based on other suggestions/feedback...

Ishtass
12-13-2012, 02:15 PM
It's come up from many other classes as well, but the ability to toggle AA's on/off would be huge (or even allow to reassign spent points for basically the same end goal). This would allow for a lot of passives to be useful in their certain situations, so people wouldn't have to not buy certain AA's for their play styles, and gives more flexibility for other requests in the future. Instead we always have to think of a workaround to achieve the same end goal, feels like sloppy programming. Aggro management for a lot of classes could be better controlled via some similar type of solution.

tanecho
12-13-2012, 02:35 PM
I would propose an activated aa that is a permanent duration buff with a percentage hp mod like epic 2 click, an aggro mod, and a damage penalty if people really want to tank. That way, dps monks can ignore it most of the time and not be balanced around it.

Probably needs a mitigation mod as well.

tanecho
12-13-2012, 02:39 PM
Continuing with that train of thought, could just as easily add an anti aggro aa along similar lines. Call them poses, stances, or postures. Posture of the turtle to tank, posture of the fox for deaggro.

Mris
12-13-2012, 02:53 PM
I would propose an activated aa that is a permanent duration buff with a percentage hp mod like epic 2 click, an aggro mod, and a damage penalty if people really want to tank. That way, dps monks can ignore it most of the time and not be balanced around it.

Probably needs a mitigation mod as well.

Or add an aggro mod to staff block, and give us more ranks.

tanecho
12-13-2012, 03:04 PM
Thinking specifically of the systems in place, I do not know of any aggro mod tied to a weapon type. I know buffs can give aggro, hp can be increased by percentage, as well as mitigation by percentage.

Ascher
12-13-2012, 03:07 PM
Continuing with that train of thought, could just as easily add an anti aggro aa along similar lines. Call them poses, stances, or postures. Posture of the turtle to tank, posture of the fox for deaggro.

I love this idea tanecho. To me it screams what a monk ability/aa/stance should be. Think about the aa's and abilities we have no, so few are actually tied to monk lore, and/or make sense for a monk to have. I guess i'm just old and prefer a slight roleplay aspect to it myself.

Ascher

Gorkeyah
12-13-2012, 03:54 PM
re: I like the idea of having passive HH effect. I see it as unlikely, but can't hurt to try.

The problem could be that we'll be balanced around it, then on a burn the adps hh effects wont help us as much as the classes with no passive hh, so we'll stink on burns.

re: And speaking of Technique of Master Wu, what are we up to with that third strike these days? I know we got new AAs in RoF. Are we at 100% now?

I recently noticed the +2kicks message seem to be almost all the time.

re: Finishing Blow has been discontinued just like headshot, assassinate, decapitate.

Well that blows. heh It shouldn't even be included in a discussion with those others. What was the reason? They didn't like making snare less of a requirement? It's not all that bad without it if you have good dps though.

Nedrom
12-13-2012, 04:24 PM
Passive HH would be nice, but that means all the group based HH effects suddenly stop working on us, thus we get no benefit. Which means we wouldn't need to depend on those classes to be fully powered.

rapitiss
12-13-2012, 04:45 PM
I'd like to see is reduced reuse timer on the big discs down to 10 minute reuse.

I'd also like to have some decent monkly robes and weapons. I really like how my monk looked using PoTime gear.

Sarayu
12-13-2012, 05:56 PM
I've been watching this thread for a little while, and figured I'd offer my two cents, which is pretty much all I can do. I've spent the last couple weeks talking to top-end monks on different servers about their perspective on dps and what I'm doing wrong, and each of them have said "You're doing everything I'm doing." That's pretty sad to hear, because my dps is lower than I want it to be. Anyway, here goes.

Forget tanking:

Every statement from the pro-tankers has basically been "I tank just fine solo, and I can save the day in raids." If that's the case, why are you lobbying for more tanking abilities? In a group setting, we are doing fine, better than fine in some instances, or poorly. I'll extroplate.

Raid: We are never going to tank a raid boss, and I personally don't want to. Yes, you can tank the raid boss for 15ish sections with Impenetrable or 12 seconds with Whirlwind, but that's the end of our tanking in raids, and should be. Yes, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you can get 5-10 more seconds blowing EVERY other defensive disc, Mend, and quick healers, but that's it. If you're disagreeing with me, you haven't tried tanking an unslowable, 40k+ hitter from RoF. We are not tanks, we should never be tanks. We already have Paladins, Warriors and SKs, and they're already being matched in some instances by a mage pet, which is ludicrous. Don't add Monks to that equation.

Group: We are more than capable at tanking any trash in the game. If you're having issue holding aggro, it's due to two reasons: 1) You're ill-equipped. You're not using an agony pot, you're not using a rune aug in your tanking weapons, or you're not spamming Vigorous Shuriken. If you're dying you're not using Mend or Impenetrable on cooldown, or your healers suck, or your ac is low. My ac gets to 9000 with a bard and tribute, and I tank fine, and my gear is shoddy. 2) If you're doing all that and still not holding aggro, then the other classes in your group aren't fading. Aggro is incredibly easy to monitor with aggro meters. Named are another matter. If you say you tank named fine in RoF solo, you're lying to us. It's hard even in a group setting. Most hit for 20k+, many have an absurd DD or DoT (77k DoT from Burntbark or Seedspitter) and have adds. I'm not saying it can be done, I'm saying by no means is it easy, and by no means are monks doing it the easiest. I can tank named in RoF because of exquisite healers (2 of them) and amazing group dps.

Aggro: All the comments about not holding aggro are stupid, imo. If you're getting aggro in a raid, your tanks are really, really bad. Feign for a full second to get to the bottom of the aggro list.

Solo XPing:

This is kind of a moot point, since a lot of the people on these forums are maxed and absolutely should not be the topic of our IRC session

I've done all of these personally:
Ranger - 75 AA headshotting, more if I roll Tae Ew instances
Shadowknight - 70 AA Swarming
Berserker - 52 AA Decap in hotzone
Druid - 50 AA Charm Kiting
Warrior - 50 AA with Shining Armor
Necromancer - 45 AA
Rogue - 35 AA
Monk - 15-20. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it might get 30 if I camp for Whirlwind, but I don't want to have to do that.

Not much incentive to go burn a lesson solo.

DPS: I'm going to make a couple blanket statements because I'm annoyed about our dps, and have seen friends play monk for 10 years and swtich to a ranger or necromancer. If you took the best players in every class and parsed them, monk would probably be lowest in burst. If you took those same players, we would parse toward the bottom in sustained. If rogues and berserkers are not going to let us match their dps, I understand the argument that we should be highest sustained. Our disciplines already last for about 5 minutes, seems the perfect recipie for making us highest sustained melee. This expansion is all about sustained dps anyway, with a few exceptions for burst dps on adds or some mechanics. Bottom line: We are unequivocally in desperate need of a dps boost. I don't want to provide ADPS, because that's not really our role, and I don't want more things to click, we have like 10 clicks for our main burn atm anyway. ADPS we got Fist of Wu (lol) anyway!

RNG and coordination: Our damage is based entirely on RNG. Yes, I understand most dps classes are, but our "pad the meter" ability Crane Stance has a range of about 200-640k with 8000 attack fully buffed. Moreover, we are one of the only classes who needs 3+ ADPS to show up on the parse. If we're missing even one, and their terrible, we dropped 20k dps. ADPS I'm talking about is Bard, Shaman, Beastlord; Zerker to lesser extent.

That's all I got... go ahead /flame on lol

rapitiss
12-14-2012, 02:31 AM
... We are unequivocally in desperate need of a dps boost ... I don't want to provide ADPS, because that's not really our role, and I don't want more things to click, we have like 10 clicks for our main burn atm anyway.

Great post Sarayu. I completely agree with everything you said and would like to highlight the above.

Aggememnon
12-14-2012, 07:07 AM
I modified the post again to add the stance stuff. I did not add the weapons/robes stuff, since this is AA chat - btw I have 2 balls of sunlight ornaments atm, with shinai also available. Think there is a post in 'equipment' with pics from someone pre release of RoF.

I'd love for this list to get prioritised based on everyones thoughts, but I guess there is just not going to be time. Feel free to suggest a running order and I will try and modify the list - (I hope +dps comes out at the top!). Since I can't be there, I want it to be easy for anyone who does attend to be able to essentially copy/paste whats here as direct requests. And please someone post the entire log here or on SoE forums!

My personal suggestion would be to open with the obvious (hastened/extended SF, TerrorPalm, Ironfist), then modifications to existing, then new AAs, then the tanking ones. I don't think we will get much from the stances (and personally don't want those). I can still see a purpose on 'short buff box' aggro reduction, but I would not rate it high. Nothing will happen with spires, if previous chats are anything to go by.

The only things not mentioned that leap out at me:
flurry- If we had flurry added with hh, that would be awesome. But I'm pretty sure with composer/aria fixes, they will not want to mess with that. What do people think? Worth adding?

crit rate - this affects rogues and monks. Perhaps we could 'jointly' ask for this?

tanecho
12-14-2012, 08:59 AM
AA activated version of speed focus - 20 hundred hands instead of 25, would help with burst.

Some way to achieve 25% OH without a bard at least part of the time, since we are balanced around near constant 15HH, the lack of overhaste destroys our dps.

Our triple attack should be higher than anyone else's, it was our class's unique ability in the olden days, and now rangers match it?

Ughbash
12-14-2012, 09:15 AM
There are two ways to look at a passive 15% hth ability.

1) We will not get anything out of things like Kolos fury.
2) We will not NEED to have a beast lord in our goup to hit max DPS.

I think getting an ability where it is always on will Boost our sustained and while it will not boost our burst it makes it easier for us to burst especially in less then perfect groups. I would rather be less dependent on others for my dps, this is one thing that helps that.

Aggememnon
12-14-2012, 09:48 AM
If we are heading down the path of 'best sustained' I think hh permanent effect is a good thing. Lets not forget KF also adds flurry though (which is why i brought it up in last post). Whether we can have this added as well, and completely remove beastlord dependence, or whether it could be a way to adding/improving burn later I dunno. In combination with higher crit rates it would be pretty potent..

And I completely agree on triple attack - was a sad day that got spread so widely. Monks should be doing most damage through fast, multiple hits imo. Its more what 'Bruce Lee' would have wanted.

Ughbash
12-14-2012, 10:18 AM
In combination with higher crit rates it would be pretty potent..

I don't think we are going to see this. We have a carppy crit rate but they want to keep that as special for Warriors, Bersekers adn archery rangers.

They already acknowledged we are behind there but said we are turend differnetly.

So rather then go with that I would push for ACCURACY. Nope we won't crit as often but if we hit with a greater percent for our attacks that will make up the dps we loose from a lower Crit rate. At least this way we are not stepping on any toes, and it makes sense for someone to strike more accurtely with their hand then with a big sword or polearm.

Gorkeyah
12-14-2012, 11:03 AM
I think getting an ability where it is always on will Boost our sustained and while it will not boost our burst it makes it easier for us to burst especially in less then perfect groups. I would rather be less dependent on others for my dps, this is one thing that helps that.

I just fear that the more something is always on, the less high it can be allowed to be. If we are completely immune to adps benefits, they're not going to let that dps also be high. In other words, I see them more likely to allow a particularly high burst if it takes a lot of pieces coming together for it to happen, than if you can hit it while you're out moloing.

In general I think first you need to convince them that we need a dps boost, then you can give them ideas on how to boost it. I don't think they're going to take ideas that would boost our dps if they don't think we need one.

Obiziana
12-14-2012, 11:44 AM
So I just want to throw in my 2 cents here.

I've read through the WAR/PAL and SK/RNG chats and see a pattern with the way that Eli is handling things. Forgive me if I'm pointing out the obvious here.

First, NO comparisons. Never tell him we are behind xxx class in DPS or tanking or whatever. He basically has said over and over that he doesn't care who's doing the most DPS, he will not balance around DPS and if we want something we need express how it would benefit the class on its own, not in comparison to another class.

Second, he seems adverse to talk about parses. He's stated that parses are ruining the game and as long as the mob dies it doesn't matter that X class did Y more damage than Z class.

Third, he's been generous. I haven't heard him shoot anything down that's reasonable. There are some things he doesn't want to or cannot touch, but other than those he's really been open to a lot of new AAs and upgraded AAs. Biggest one, that shouldn't effect us is he doesn't want to step on Aristo's toes modifying spells. As don't use spells we should be ok here.

The tactic I think we should take here is to try and paint a picture for him of where our class currently stands in raiding/grouping.

Raiding:

From what I can see in game and through forums, we currently lack a real role in raids. I think he will understand this. If we take a united front with that type of perspective I believe we will get some much deserved love from the devs. At this point, we've established a need and we can move forward and try to define some methods to improve our raid desirability and functionality.

Grouping:

Here I see us benefiting via a trickle-down effect. I don't think we really lack anything in the group game that I see us gaining ground in. They aren't going to give us an assassinate type ability, we're not going to become soloing gods via some new AA and honestly, we're pretty decent in the group game. We can pull, off tank, dps, solo light blues and molo pretty well. I think if we can focus our requests around raid desirability we should end up with some decent bumps that will help the group monk as well.


Ok, that's my long winded 2 cents. Now for what I'd like to see.

DPS - I feel it takes so long to kill a mob in current content solo/molo. Higher sustained would be a huge help here in my mind. The changes to punch mastery would be a great start. Perm HH effect would also be a most welcome addition.

Tanking - I'm undergeared and I know this is why I suck at tanking. That said, I would love to see some amount of parity between 2hb and h2h in DPS. As it is, we take less damage with a 2hb equipped but we kill so much slower. The reduced kill rate means we need that much more healing to make it through the mob. My suggestion would be extending Fists of Steel to 2hb (damage bonus) and make it big. Along with this a few more ranks of Staff Block and some way to hold agro with that big 2hb. Innate hate procs when wielding 2hb?

Utility - I think we're pretty good here. I don't want to be ADPS, I don't want to be a buffer, lord knows I don't want to be a healer. I like the suggestion here for in combat mez. I'm not sure the "others can do it" argument will get any traction though. I'd say the best way to get this one through would simply be, "We've had mez for so long now, an AA that allows us to use it in combat." Also - reduce ID to 30s!!! No idea how to push that through, maybe just ask nicely :)

Gorkeyah
12-14-2012, 12:34 PM
If that's the case, then maybe we can just ask for specific AA improvements and not worry about it. heh

Sarayu
12-14-2012, 12:44 PM
[Edit: Deleted condescending remarks and loling and trololololing people. Old computer didn't have misses on :P]

Obiziana
12-14-2012, 12:45 PM
Turn on "my misses" ? :)

Nedrom
12-14-2012, 01:56 PM
Trolling? Where!!! Arghh!!

Ascher
12-14-2012, 03:40 PM
Personally i'd like the monk class to be what it thought it was when i started monk in 2001. The highest sustained - non burst melee class available. With the added benefit that we can get in/out of tricky situations with mend/fd, and that we can quasi tank for groups.

I have'nt raided since OoW so i'm not joining that discussion part.

DPS upgrade seems like a logical request for us. We have to approach it from the standpoint of asking to be the highest sustained dps though, instead of trying to 'measure up' to rog/bers in parses or raid burst. I have not watched/read any of the previous chats yet, but i'm guessing that if someone can articulate the points that we are after and what it means for the MONK class, then we should get some love.

I will try and attend, but will have to check my schedule that day. Pretty sure its while i'm working.

Ascher

Aggememnon
12-15-2012, 12:10 PM
I've seen the comments Eli made about not focusing on parses. An example is asking - did the mob die, and did you enjoy killing it. Its impossible to justify dps upgrades without mentioning parses. Closest I can think of:

'Monks seem to be enjoying killing mobs around half as much as zerks, and about 2/3 as much as rogues, on fast kills. We would like an enjoyment boost.'

tanecho
12-15-2012, 03:02 PM
I would go with the mantra that it is not about parity, it is about purpose. Monks do not currently have a purpose as we do not seem to excel in any role over any period of time currently. There are lots of paths to that which can be discussed.

Maereax
12-15-2012, 04:11 PM
Aggememnon bro, I have no idea what class you're playing, or even what game you're on. Did this turn into like WoW monks with the same skills as us and I just didn't realize it?

Monks can and do things that no other class out there could even attempt. Go try to Solo/molo chapterhouse partisan and mercenary tasks. Seriously, go try it. I know for a fact it's possible, because I did it. I don't know that any other class in this game could have done it, and if they could (sk's probably can, but they're extremely similar to us) it would take significantly longer.

I frequently solo the +10dmg aug camp in kael. It's two T1 mobs, but they both hit like named. Again, SKs could probably do it, but it would take longer. Not many other classes could.

The only actual thing that you're complaining about that other classes have over monks is headshot/assassinate/decapitate, which was discontinued this expansion. Yes, they can still do it. But really, who cares? First, it majorly sucks to sit in the same few camps and kill specific LB/green mobs over and over forever. Those classes can't solo anything (minus rangers) of that level OTHER than those mobs. Secondly, even if they do use those skills to 100% max level/AA, they STILL can't do the things we can do without being max.

As far as the topic, the AA chats;
We need more DPS in the raid game. We're really strong in groups, we can sub for a tank if needed, we can do competitive DPS, we can sustain with reprieve and mend. In raids, there's no point in bringing monks over other class. We don't want to turn into beastlords by asking for utility, just go play a beastlord if you want that. We'll never be a tank class, we already tank well and if you want to tank better, again, go play an SK. We need to ask for DPS without comparing us to other classes or relying on parse data.

Specify that there's no reason to pick a monk on raids. We need to be brought up on DPS. I'd prefer burst damage, but we could use the sustained if that's what we get.

Stay away from more HH. We get it from buffs already, one of our main discs is based around it, and it's going to hurt us long-term. Bards/Beasts give HH to everyone else already, why would we waste our hopeful DPS gain to get something we're already being given and will have zero effect while we have those buffs?

Passive damage is preferable. Pull away from more shit to click and less endurance to burn with. AA's to give us our innate damage tables back, serious passive increases to specials/melee hits (fists of fury passsive/punch mastery), innate accuracy (serious boost/combined with something else -I don't believe just this would get us where we need to be)

You can use parse information without referencing parses. What percentage of our damage comes from specials? (note: not stunning kick/synergy. That show's up as kicks on parses I think). If you go to Eli and say look, we've always had this. It's a mechanic similar to rogues backstabbing (but >don't< say anything about rogues backstab damage, let him make the connection) but doesn't do more than 2-5% of our total damage and is hardly worth using.

Maereax
12-15-2012, 04:29 PM
There are two ways to look at a passive 15% hth ability.

1) We will not get anything out of things like Kolos fury.
2) We will not NEED to have a beast lord in our goup to hit max DPS.

I think getting an ability where it is always on will Boost our sustained and while it will not boost our burst it makes it easier for us to burst especially in less then perfect groups. *I would rather be less dependent on others for my dps, this is one thing that helps that.

Here's the thing... to be competitive in raids, we'll still need shamans and bards in our groups for their effects. We're not getting versions of everything that they give us. Other classes that do more than we do require beastlords. Thus, basically, beastlords will be in raid DPS groups. So either
A)We don't NEED them and thus don't get put in groups with them and end up just getting left out of raid DPS groups (ouch), or
B)We just gain nothing from something they "pay for" as part of their utility.

So we're "spending" the DPS that we hopefully convince them we need on something that we're either:

A)Hurting ourselves with, or
B)Gaining nothing from while we have a beastlord

edit:
I guess if you run like three melee DPS groups and only have two raiding beastlords, this works out for you - but that's extremely guild specific and something that could easily change.

Sarayu
12-16-2012, 01:49 AM
Maereax, not to blatantly call you out, but your posts kind of annoyed me. You say that no other class but a shadowknight can molo chapterhouse partisans besides a monk? That's absurd. Magician, Necromancer, Beastlord, Ranger, Paladin, Warrior friend did it, rogue molo'd it, christ a bard did it in my guild. And it doesn't take longer than us. Also, Kael named who drops the dps aug hits like a girl and has less hp than trash. Bad example. And those same classes I mentioned can take that camp +2 more mobs fairly easily. I didn't get the quip about WoW toward Aggememnon, but so far I haven't heard anything but productive things from him.

Finally, Eli reads these posts, planning on "having him make the connection" or "don't say it like that because he'll know" is ludicrous, you can see him as a member.

Kaliaila
12-16-2012, 03:43 AM
I'm just going to ignore all the post that only deal with disc's and have nothing to do with AAs.

Definitely need to ask about what's coming of the whole Punch Mastery AA changes, it would be nice to see H2H added to what it affects; even if H2H would be lower increase than all the other skills.

All of the Extended and Hasten AAs mentioned sound good to me.

AAs to increase Accuracy sound great all around; I agree that overall dps would be increased more by a significant increase in Accuracy than it would by an equal increase in crit rates.

Monk Staff Block getting something like an Improved Staff Block which would add an aggro mod to 2hb and some other similar tank lite benefits. For those monks who like to tank or do it a lot.

Echo in combat AA line; I could definitely see benefits of this. More or less make it buyable at 98 and work similar to Echo just without the OOC restrictions; and you could even give it a 30 second to 1 minute refresh time (or longer even)for which it would still be useable for the situations outlined by others.

Monk Only - Passive 5 HH, I think that would be fine place. Maybe over time get it up to 10; but I really don't see a need for anything that big at the start. One thing to consider is that if you go for higher values you may run into the same issue as our runspeed AAs do; spells meant to be beneficial will end up being detrimental (though it would be solved via buff blocking). Not everyone regularly groups or is grouped in ideal groups having a bard and/or a beastlord. Also, the 5HH would give us back an effective ratio superiority by give us weapons that are effectively always 18 in RoF, though they would be making the VoA and earlier weapons effectively 17.

Speaking of which, 18 delay weapons were pretty much lost, due to the Dev's wanting to remove the "oh no one wants this weapon because it is 20 delay" issue; so they replaced it with the "oh no one wants this weapon because it has this crappy proc" issue. So now all the weapons of the same tier, skill type, and classes that can use it are the same damage and delay; except for cultural weapons which only the proc'less symbol results in the same dmg/dly as T2 weapons.

Now for an AA idea that I think might be interesting; maybe a line which would increase the power of HH effects that land on us (excluding Speed Focus). For example if we get Fists of Fury or Kolos landing on us instead of being the value they normally are; we instead get one with like 1-5 HH more (could even have it be 5 ranks each increasing the HH by 1). Maybe could be someway set up in a way to even be passively active so instead of 0 HH we would have an innate 5 HH + spell/buff/disc with a cap of 25.

tanecho
12-16-2012, 10:24 AM
One thing to consider, we aren't likely to get any kind of special attention (for recent example, think of how many wraps/robes are available to us through hero's forge). So anything requiring code changes is unlikely to happen. Keep that in mind when suggesting things, think of things that currently work and try to think of a way those systems could be used to do what you want.

So on the improved staff block idea above, suggest something similar to the fists of fury proc, but with an agro modifier / rune effect or something of that sort when we have a 2hb out.

tanecho
12-16-2012, 11:47 AM
My updated wishlist, just talking about AAs:

New ranks of infusion of thunder (hopefully going to 110%+): I know comparisons are bad, but the rogue equivalent to this ability is this.

Rogue's Fury
2: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 180%
3: Hundred Hands Effect
4: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 180%
8: Increase Chance to Hit by 10% with All Skills

It also lasts 3 ticks longer baseline. I don't know if they have reduction AAs on it, it's 10 minute reuse baseline. It does what infusion does but over twice as well, in addition to a HH effect and an accuracy boost.

Passive/activated accuracy boosts

Improvements to Zan Fi (higher damage bonus %, maybe some attack added on an otherwise unused line.

Cooldown reduction on Terrorpalm/Ironfist

Either hand to hand added to Punch Mastery, or some SERIOUS (I'm talking 50-100pts per rank) adjustments made to strikes. Their skill levels are still around POP era numbers, they hit for incredibly low amounts. I can see my minimum strike around 2/3 of the amount of my minimum punch from 200 mobs on live servers yesterday. If we're talking fun/lore perspective, why are we throwing these "special strikes" when they are less effective than a standard punch? I have 26/29 punch mastery. These things do not scale with weapons, like our flying kicks. They need attention every expansion in line with the increases of the time.

Keep new buttons to a minimum, modify existing ones instead.

Additional ranks of Physical Enhancement that are monk only, adding roughly 5000 hp and an additional 2% to mitigation/avoidance for us. Our baseline damage avoidance advantage over other non-tank classes seems to have severely diminished in recent years.

Triple attack - another monk trait that has been passed out too much. We should be above other classes on the skill that I'm fairly sure was once unique to us. 5 more ranks of burst of power for us.

Hastened Purify - to 3-4 minutes, I think 1 is asking too much.

Hastened 5PP - to 3 minutes. This has become a very useful tool with the recent changes in XP groups to save healers/casters from adds.

Maereax
12-16-2012, 02:41 PM
Maereax, not to blatantly call you out, but your posts kind of annoyed me. You say that no other class but a shadowknight can molo chapterhouse partisans besides a monk? That's absurd. Magician, Necromancer, Beastlord, Ranger, Paladin, Warrior friend did it, rogue molo'd it, christ a bard did it in my guild. And it doesn't take longer than us.
I said merc and partisan. Mercs were hard in that zone. Required either a significant amount of pulling or some serious clearing, thus adding significant time requirements to anyone not able to split pull while keeping IVU/invis up. And there was more than one part that required IVU and regular invis.

Also, Kael named who drops the dps aug hits like a girl and has less hp than trash. Bad example. And those same classes I mentioned can take that camp +2 more mobs fairly easily.
I'm in T4 VoA raid visible/weapons, with a mix of T2-4 raid nonvis and I had trouble tanking both of those at once. They hit for 12k+ each and while they may have low hp, they're not mobs that die in 30 seconds with a defensive disc up.

I didn't get the quip about WoW toward Aggememnon, but so far I haven't heard anything but productive things from him.
He posted multiple times about how rangers/rogues/zerkers were so much better off than us because of HS/assassinate/decap when that barely applies now, and wont next expansion. Plus, we've always been better soloers than two of the three, and that remains to this day with anything other than hs/assassinate/decap.


Finally, Eli reads these posts, planning on "having him make the connection" or "don't say it like that because he'll know" is ludicrous, you can see him as a member.
I didn't say act like it's a secret. I said to compare our flying kick to a rogues backstab, but not in terms of DPS. Meaning, say it's a core part of our class much like <class_X>'s <ability_Y> but in it's current form needs some work. Meaning, don't say <class_X>'s <ability_Y> does 25% of their dps and ours only does 2% of our dps and i want A, B, and C because of this.

Aggememnon
12-16-2012, 06:19 PM
He posted multiple times about how rangers/rogues/zerkers were so much better off than us because of HS/assassinate/decap when that barely applies now, and wont next expansion. Plus, we've always been better soloers than two of the three, and that remains to this day with anything other than hs/assassinate/decap.

....

I also posted that I care most about dps as a priority, and all else takes a back seat. I asked on SoE forums about decap/hs etc and was told with this expansion they become worthless. Seems that was grossly inaccurate. I mention it now not cos I particularly want a similar ability, but as a *utility* that these other classes have. ie a means to make very good XP. (Regardless of wheteher its useless in 6 months, or is only useful to rebank AA to buy glyphs.). I'm not sure what you mean when you say it barely applies. It does, scroll up and read the numbers. And you do know the next expansion is roughly 1 year away?


There are 2 different types of soloers. All those classes are better on light blue. Soloing progression? (Do you mean molo?) I doubt there is as much difference in rog/monk moloability as you think. I did mention in-combat mezz didn't I? And a slow poison thats on about 50% of the time? I think its really nice that you can solo/molo with your monk, but I don't think you really know what other classes are capable of.

Maereax
12-16-2012, 06:43 PM
As far as I know, and this could be wrong as I've never tried to molo one with a cleric merc, rogues take hits no where near as well as we do. They have a lower AC softcap, they mitigate (or avoid, which do we get passively?) less than us, and they don't have mend, epic heals, HoT discs and don't have an equivalent for Impen. I am very much aware of the limits and capabilities of SOME other classes. Admittedly, I know very little of casters.

I saw the numbers. And in the sense that they can do light blue mobs faster than we can is a valid one. But that simply doesn't apply in any sort of relevant content. You say the next expansion is a year away, I am aware of that. There current expansion for HS/assassinate/decap killing is HoT. That was content from two years ago. You claim they get that as utility - they pay for that same utility. People have been crying about it for so long that it's now a reason that those other classes don't get things they want. Much like our mend timer and having FD.

I shouldn't have posted the shit I did. It's not constructive, weather or not it's correct. I just think you have an extremely jaded perspective. Berserkers and rogues almost require groups outside of their low level killing, we have no such limitation. We might kill slower, but I'd be seriously surprised to see a rogue or a berserker that is able to molo grind effectively without dying repeatedly in RoF T2. I'm going to stop arguing about it, because I think at this point it's more of an opinion war than a fact war and you're welcome to your opinions

Maereax
12-16-2012, 06:56 PM
As far as our AA's, replying to the first post in this thread:

If the FPP agro thing is a bug, I'd like it to stay as is. If you need to use it and don't want the agro, just FD right after and stand. If the mob is being tanked by someone else, chances are you'll blur anyway, and it gives us something to use for emergency agro.

Utility: Forget monk utility. I agree 100%. Soloability... we define that differently. I'm perfectly fine where we're at in the ability to solo, though I agree we should kill faster

Reuse: 100% agree with faster discs. There's very few/no current events that require a burn that we can disc twice on even with 10 min timers.

Tanking: No. Let me elaborate.
Gaining agro: FPP is snap agro right now, which works for us. Sustained agro... If you're tanking for groups and can't keep agro with hate poisons, planesmaster clicky and if required, high agro proc augs, I think you're either doing something wrong, or trying to keep agro off tanks/wizards (tanks can't even keep off wizards right now, that's their problem, not ours)
Losing agro: Seriously? FD. It's like a level 8 skill. Click FD, press Ctrl + s. Bam, you're lower on agro. You also have ID which does the same but 100% blurs. Please, please, please don't ask for something that lowers our agro =/

Modifications:
Please don't ask for 100% HH. All that does is lower the benefit we get from DPS groups on raids, which is a really bad thing considering we barely get spots in them right now. I agree 100% on more sustained, but not like that.

Cloud of fists(this is a disc, not an AA): I'd be cool with letting this die. Give us a disc on the same timer that does something worthwhile or something. Not sure. It's just one more button to press, and does very little.

DM(this is a disc, not an AA): Upgrade it

Stonefoot and misc: SERIOUSLY upgrade the damage. Fkick is barely worth using in it's current state. It just doesn't do enough damage.

X-step(this is a disc, not an AA): Move to CoF timer is a great idea

Eye of the storm(this is a disc, not an AA): What's wrong with EotS? I like it a lot, it fits well between our current discs in both groups and raids.

ID: Seriously. Down to 30. It's retarded that a tank class can FD/Fade 4x as much as >The< FD class in the game.

Echo(this is a disc, not an AA): I don't see why we need a combat mez, and especially not if they lower ID. ID/mez = win. That's dangerously close to asking for utility which we've already agreed we don't want.

DF: Cool with lowering it, cool with it where it is. It's a marginal increase in DPS when using any disc other than speedfocus, and then it's still not huge. It's also highly situational anywhere you have adds.

TP/SF extended: sure.

IoT: make it the same duration as SF? Does it even benefit us while using Iron/terror/eye?

Purify: Yes to reduce, maybe not down to 1min though. It's what, six? now? down to 3 or 4 would be cool. 1Min is way overpowered on raids, some AoEs only go off once a minute, we'd be immune to anything like that.