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Aggememnon
10-17-2012, 05:55 AM
I'm not sure how many are trying for beta access, but I thought it would be nice to collect information/concerns for reference by those that do get access. I'm happy to edit/organise the following list and flesh it out as more stuff gets added. We should also be quite clear on what we ask for as a community, as different monks asking for different things will probably result in nothing at all ;/

I've arranged this in 3 sections, and we can spin it into 3 threads if there are enough interested people. Basically add a 1 liner for each of your top (5 max) points.


General
-----------
* dps concerns:
- sustained is matched or better from zerk/rog
- burst we get annihilated by rog/zerk, and beaten by most hybrids

* Revaluate the current dps/utility balance as related to dps output. (I think zerks should be out in front as they have no real utility that I know of, but Rog vs Mnk utility is fairly equal in my opinion.

* Discipline timers need to be shortened a lot. The best zerk/rog disciplines are on 10 min reuse, while ours are about double that. Related, we need to have a *lot* shaved off Ironfist, which is weakest and has longest timer.

* Monks need to focus on one thing - sustained or burst dps. I suggest sustained, as I think that would be easier to get.

* I don't see the justification for ROG only weapons, while monks have to share weapons with beastlords


Disciplines
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* I would like to see accuracy added to our existing disciplines - we miss *way* too much (or add to drunken monkey/Zan Fi)
* I would be happy to see a 'hate reduction' discipline/AA (like Rogs), as I catch aggro way too much for the dps I do.
* I would like to see 'Jab through'/'inner rejuvination'/'6th breath' removed and replaced by useful disciplines
* I would like to see less dependency on additional monks for synergy hits (eg increase the 'solo' damage it does)
* I would like to see Ironfist (our weakest/longest reuse) on a much shorter reuse timer


Utility/other
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* I do not want tanking upgrades, as I think this will dilute the dps upgrade we can ask for. (Btw, I believe devs do not know we have 0 tanking AA, and assume that since ppl call us 'light tank' we must have some abilities in that area...)
* Our ranged dps is absolutely diabolical. But I don't care if we can stack that with our list of deficiencies, as a way to get more dps.
* I do not want new pulling tools. I think its an ability we need to let die slowly...
* Maybe its time to have a monk only tradeskill like poisons for rogues. Its seems having slow available thru poison making does not count as *utility* ;p
* We should get something equivalent to assasinate for rogs, and decapitate for zerks...

Ughbash
10-17-2012, 07:13 AM
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* I do not want tanking upgrades, as I think this will dilute the dps upgrade we can ask for. (Btw, I believe devs do not know we have 0 tanking AA, and assume that since ppl call us 'light tank' we must have some abilities in that area...)


Personally I disagree with you completely here.

Way back when they used to compare monks and rogues and warriors (I think velious).

We were 80 percent of the tanking of a warrior and 120% of the dps.

Rouges were 80 percent of the tanking of a monk and 120% of the dps.

We also DO have tanking AA. Riposte kick (which we have had since SoL and Douple Riposte) both only serve a purpose while tanking. Ok Riposte kick since they changed it to stop ever takign riposte from the mob has other uses but in its original form it only benefited when we were tanking.

Extended Inpenetrable is a tanking AA.

We are tanks and need to keep getting better as tanks. The point is if we stagnate as a tank, and mobs get tougher (which they will) we fall behind.

I agree with you that we need more sustained DPS but we also need better tanking, and NOT just when weilding a 2hb.

Nedrom
10-17-2012, 08:25 AM
* I would like to see accuracy added to our existing disciplines - we miss *way* too much

We just had two members of the community run some parses on accuracy and accuracy tribute and it looks like without tribute we're at ~77% and with tribute ~80%.

What are other classes seeing for accuracy? Basically, how do we know what is 'too much'?

Rten
10-17-2012, 11:46 AM
I may start a different thread to handle this from a different perspective. Instead of Having what do we want from the Beta, maybe make a thread about what would you like to have looked at or parsed in the Beta. If people have specific parses or conditions or tests to have run, then Beta peeps may be able to help check them out and within the framework of the NDA check to see how the new expansion compares to today.

Mris
10-17-2012, 02:07 PM
* Discipline timers need to be shortened a lot. The best zerk/rog disciplines are on 10 min reuse, while ours are about double that. Related, we need to have a *lot* shaved off Ironfist, which is weakest and has longest timer.
Agreed. We already had a reduction to SF, a good start. I'd really like to see some AAs for the scaled/iron/etc line to be reduced to 10 minutes; the Thunderkick reuse. (I'd take 20, though, as reducing it to 1/3 all at once IS a lot.) Also wouldn't mind seeing Heel on a 10 minute timer. (I think it's 15 ATM.)

* I don't see the justification for ROG only weapons, while monks have to share weapons with beastlords
There's precedent for this in the group game, at least in HoT. (And VoA, as well, I think?)

* I would like to see accuracy added to our existing disciplines - we miss *way* too much (or add to drunken monkey/Zan Fi)
Well, I wouldn't mind that, either, but remember, there has to be some room to move up, or you start cutting into existing abilities. (Not sure how rangers feel about it, but it would make Auspice far less useful if everyone already has max/near max accuracy.)

* I would be happy to see a 'hate reduction' discipline/AA (like Rogs), as I catch aggro way too much for the dps I do.
Seriously?

* I would like to see 'Jab through'/'inner rejuvination'/'6th breath' removed and replaced by useful disciplines
Agreed, and I'd bet most other monks will, too.

* I do not want tanking upgrades, as I think this will dilute the dps upgrade we can ask for. (Btw, I believe devs do not know we have 0 tanking AA, and assume that since ppl call us 'light tank' we must have some abilities in that area...)
Well, we have mend, extended/hastened impen, decry death, staff block, 2 dodge discs, and really, we don't do too bad without it all. The only real thing we lack is instant aggro, and we can group tank nicely. (Oh, and that Hold the Line crap that nobody uses.)

* Our ranged dps is absolutely diabolical. But I don't care if we can stack that with our list of deficiencies, as a way to get more dps.
I wouldn't even bother, personally. But that's just opinion.

* I do not want new pulling tools. I think its an ability we need to let die slowly...
Half agreed. It's not something I feel we need to "let die", it's just something we do well enough already.

* Maybe its time to have a monk only tradeskill like poisons for rogues. Its seems having slow available thru poison making does not count as *utility* ;p
The TSer in me is curious. The monk in me says, "No, and what would it be anyway?" And the realist in me says it's not going to happen anyway. (Particularly not this late in the development cycle.)

My own personal desires:
*Purify Body needs more hastened AAs!
*Passive, passive, passive! Severely limit what we ask for as activated abilities.
*A (passive) AA version of Tigers Balance. It would have to be in a somewhat weakened form (compared to the disc) but it would make sense, and be a nice dps boost, as well as making our strikes matter. (This really seemed like what Tigers should have been in the first place, to me.)

Piggymonk
10-17-2012, 07:57 PM
hell,6th breath has lot of use,6th wind is totally crap though

Aggememnon
10-18-2012, 09:18 AM
I just added 1 more 'other', which is something akin to
decapitation/assasinate...

To the questions:

(Ned) - Accuracy: I saw those tribute parses, and thats when I thought boosting accuracy may help on both sustained and burst dps. I asked a rog friend of mine to look over his logs, and a total log file combined put him at 81% pierce (averages disciplines too), with 92% bactstab.He also said that they have some lightweight disciplines that boost accuracy to 100% for 30 secs.

Looking at my log file, I see (about 5.5 hrs fighting):
Aggememnon -vs- Combined: A dread light: -- DMG: 174979952 -- DPS: 9031 --
Scaled: 9031 -- Hit: 95569247 -- Kick: 41020791 -- Punch: 18310252 --
DirDmg: 10631969 -- Bite: 6021680 -- Strike: 3426013 -- Non-crit rate: 77%
-- crit rate: 23% -- Attempts: 91260 -- Hits: 73223 -- Missed: 18037 --
Accuracy: 80.2% -- Avg Hit: 2389 -- Max hit: 246322 -- DMG to PC: 8872720
(Thats with 90.6% kick accuracy, 76.1% punch...)

(Mris) - Rog only weapons - I was meaning raid more than group.
Hate reduction - yes I would like that seriously. I stand there with a rog/zerk doing close to 100k dps, and *I* catch aggro. Whats up with that? Of course if you want aggro, you would not click the imaginary AA/disc (should buff into song box) that reduces hate.

(Mris/Ugh) - Tanking (the big one).
Now I do not regard our tanking ability as all that great, especially in raid (eg. muses in windsong, which are light blue, will kill me fast if I let them). I don't think its all that far removed from what a rogue can do, or a ranger. It bothers me that it *may* be affecting the level of dps boosts we get. ie. I don't its so great that it should count as a utility. I mean a t4 merc tanks better...

I know we were 80% of a tank, and 80% of rog dps, but those figures are well gone and long forgotten. Devs don't care how things used to be. Hybrids were supposed to be 2/3 of the dps of a pure melee class. /shrug. What you guys are calling tanking AAs, are shared with other melee classes no? (Not sure on a Return kick equivalent tbh). And Impenetrable (extended/hastened) to me is an 'oh shit' ability (survivability) and other classes get those too. Rogues get 2 'survivability' disciplines. I'd agree that impenetrable/mend is the best combination for survivability though.

Rten - good idea on parse conditions...

Piggy - I almost 100% use reprieve. I not even sure I bough 'breath' or 'wind'.

Ughbash
10-18-2012, 09:43 AM
(Mris/Ugh) - Tanking (the big one).
Now I do not regard our tanking ability as all that great, especially in raid (eg. muses in windsong, which are light blue, will kill me fast if I let them). I don't think its all that far removed from what a rogue can do, or a ranger. It bothers me that it *may* be affecting the level of dps boosts we get. ie. I don't its so great that it should count as a utility. I mean a t4 merc tanks better...


As a counterpoint to this, same raid (Windsong) I tanked the boss for about 5% to make it to a phase change when the tanks were down. (inpenetrable, switched to 2hb, armor of experience, deny death, epic click, mend, third spire, a little luck).

When grouping with friend I am almost ALWAYS the tank.

As for aggro in fights, I get aggro (and do not want it) I feighn or Imitate death. To me it is not that big of a deal. But then I remember times when it was prtty much required that ever 30 seconds or so on a raid (in between burns) we would drop and pop back up. My stand hot key is right next to my Feighn Death hotkey so takes minimal time for me to press 9, press 0, press A (yes I still use a for attack). Though yes the half second or so that takes will lower my dps some.

Nedrom
10-18-2012, 10:08 AM
(Ned) - Accuracy: I saw those tribute parses, and thats when I thought boosting accuracy may help on both sustained and burst dps. I asked a rog friend of mine to look over his logs, and a total log file combined put him at 81% pierce (averages disciplines too), with 92% bactstab.He also said that they have some lightweight disciplines that boost accuracy to 100% for 30 secs.

Looking at my log file, I see (about 5.5 hrs fighting):
Aggememnon -vs- Combined: A dread light: -- DMG: 174979952 -- DPS: 9031 --
Scaled: 9031 -- Hit: 95569247 -- Kick: 41020791 -- Punch: 18310252 --
DirDmg: 10631969 -- Bite: 6021680 -- Strike: 3426013 -- Non-crit rate: 77%
-- crit rate: 23% -- Attempts: 91260 -- Hits: 73223 -- Missed: 18037 --
Accuracy: 80.2% -- Avg Hit: 2389 -- Max hit: 246322 -- DMG to PC: 8872720
(Thats with 90.6% kick accuracy, 76.1% punch...)


From your parse, it doesn't look like Rogues are very far ahead of us anyway.

What I would like to know is how we compare for accuracy versus Rangers and Beastlords. As long as we're ahead of them, I'm good.

Ughbash
10-18-2012, 10:21 AM
From your parse, it doesn't look like Rogues are very far ahead of us anyway.

What I would like to know is how we compare for accuracy versus Rangers and Beastlords. As long as we're ahead of them, I'm good.

Well behind rangers when the are using their archery disc.... Not sure for melee though I think they get an AA line that boosts accuracy.

Aggememnon
10-18-2012, 10:26 AM
As a counterpoint to this, same raid (Windsong) I tanked the boss for about 5% to make it to a phase change when the tanks were down. (inpenetrable, switched to 2hb, armor of experience, deny death, epic click, mend, third spire, a little luck).
.
As a counter-counterpoint, I've seen rangers and rogues accomplish the same feat, and yet monks are labelled 'light tank' and rogues for sure are not. Hence we get the knockbacks when it comes to additional dps requests ('you are light tanks'), while others do not. And most of what you use is available to others (decry death, AoE, and luck). I'm not saying 'don't tank', I'm saying don't fall for the trap in saying its tanking. You are using your survivability, and all classes have it to a greater or lesser extent.



As for aggro in fights, I get aggro (and do not want it) I feighn or Imitate death. To me it is not that big of a deal.... Though yes the half second or so that takes will lower my dps some.
And rogues use evade and escape for the same purpose, and *yet* they have disciplines and AA that lower their hate, requiring that they need to perform these tricks less often, even when doing double your dps.

Ned - I will try and find some info on BL/RNG accuracy...

Ughbash
10-18-2012, 12:23 PM
As a counter-counterpoint, I've seen rangers and rogues accomplish the same feat, and yet monks are labelled 'light tank' and rogues for sure are not. Hence we get the knockbacks when it comes to additional dps requests ('you are light tanks'), while others do not. And most of what you use is available to others (decry death, AoE, and luck). I'm not saying 'don't tank', I'm saying don't fall for the trap in saying its tanking. You are using your survivability, and all classes have it to a greater or lesser extent.

Rogues I have not seen tank that long dueot our low dps it was over a minute however IF a ranger switched to sword and board he can out tank us (yes this annoys me). They have better mitigation (due to a higher soft cap) and better AC (due to chain base).

Rangers used to say they wanted to be able to out tank anything that could out dps them, and out dps anything that could out tank them. Currently (at least on my server) they out tank and out dps monks... fortunately we have them on utiltiy and buffs .

With rangers being hybrids I think we should outdps and out tank them they have us beat to hell and back on utility and add DPS to the entire raid with Auspice and the the grup with group guardian form.

I long for the days when Khavok said the tank order was Warrior -> Knights -> Monks -> others.

Mris
10-18-2012, 03:57 PM
(Mris) - Rog only weapons - I was meaning raid more than group.

I wasn't saying "we have it, don't ask." I was saying, they gave it to groupers, so there's precedent for it. I even used that word.

Kaliaila
10-18-2012, 05:40 PM
On the pulling tools, I think that letting it die is bad. But I also think that we only need to maintain what we have now, so new echo and phantom line each level increase or at least mob level increases above the existing ones.

All for increased sustained over burst, perhaps reclaim melee sustained at any angle crown?

Tanking again, I think we need to at least maintain the status quo. Don't need to ask for new, but keep what we have up to date.

The rest sounds good to me.

Piggymonk
10-18-2012, 07:50 PM
Agg,nice post on accuracy thing.

For sure, Reprieve series is rock star when your endurance below 30%,But 6th breaths is a useful disc that can be used on any portion that can regen you 15%ish endurance instantly after cast..(except it has ridiculous CD time...)

Nedrom
10-18-2012, 08:38 PM
Split 7th/6th pattern/whorl etc... line of discs from Synergy timer already...